| Author | Message | ||
| rogertvr
Advanced Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 396 Registered: 1-2003 |
My very own opinion, based on my comparison with my Rickenbacker 4001, and three Status basses... The Design - I have now owned the DW for two years, from new. The body of the Dragon's Wing is mostly my own design - I have the various drawings dated Friday 21 March 2003 that I drew on baking parchment to prove it. Headstock designed by Susan Wickersham. Chinese Dragon inlay - not sure who designed this at Alembic, but words simply aren't enough - stunning. Living With It - pain in the arse, even if it is beautifully built. The neck moves about like there is no tomorrow. The whole instrument can be adjusted for a fantastic playing set-up, only for it to be unplayable three hours later. The Signature electronics are limited in capability - they are easily left behind by more modern instruments. It's impossible to ADD to the sound - for anyone who is familiar with analog synthesizers, you can only SUBTRACT from the sound. Apart from using the Q switch to emphasise the attack on a note. Limited functionality and 80's thinking in this digital age. Verdict: It's expensive art. Pay your money, make your choice... | ||
| the_8_string_king
Intermediate Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 138 Registered: 9-2005 |
Wow. I've NEVER heard such comments about either an Alembics neck, nor the electronics. I can't help wondering if there is an issue with the truss rods. Just out of curiousity, could you tell me what basses "easily leave behind" the Signature electronics? I've never heard another bass with electronics even close to signature electronics in capability -other than other Alembics. Has anyone else had neck issues like this? I've never heard this before from any Alembic owner. Do you have a super-thin custom neck, maybe. I recently gave my custom Alembic it's first, slight tweaking of the truss rods. Of course, mine has a particularily awesome 13 piece extra-super-strong laminated neck made of ebony AND purpleheart and maple. | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 350 Registered: 11-2003 |
I too own a DW - I believe mine is possibly the second or third one built. A few comments if I may. I have seen the drawings Roger refers to above. I can't speak to the date they were created as I was physically not there when they were, but they do show several iterations of the bodystyle in development. Whether Alembic or Roger is the architect of the bodystyle is a matter between him and Alembic, so I will stay out of it. I will say it is a very beautiful design, and more comfortable to play, sitting and standing, than one would think. Roger is correct when he states that Alembic electronics, as configured in the Signature Electronics, are primarily designed to subtract frequencies rather than boost (unless, of course, you add the boost switches as on my Europa). I don't personally view this as a negative however, and I find the set up very versatile. I can get Jaco like tones out of mine, as well as Entwistle, Clarke, etc. Of course, tone control and set up is a very personal matter, and one of individual taste. I also use an SF-2 in my rig, so if I can't get the tone I'm looking for, regardless of instrument, someone should just shoot me now! The neck - I've not experienced the problems Roger has with his. From what I understand, Roger's neck is modeled after that of his beloved Rickenbacker 4001. If his Rick is like the two that I own (a '76 and a '77), the neck is relative thin both width and thickness-wise. I'm not sure how this plays out in truss rod adjustments and movement. Roger has three purpleheart lams in his neck; I only have two. What effect this has on the neck movement I just can't comment on. I love my Dragon's Wing, but again, set up, neck profiles, tone shaping, etc. are all a matter of personal taste. If Roger is experiencing the problems he states he is, it must be very disappointing for him given the expense of what is obviously a very finely crafted and beautiful instrument otherwise. Again, I've not experienced these problems, so my take is that perhaps there is something about Rog's instrument that needs to be looked at, I don't know. Again, that is a matter between Rog and Alembic, and I'll stay out of it as it is none of my business. Rog is right about one thing - it's your money, so pick the bass that works for you. For me, that's Alembic. Best regards, Alan | ||
| rogertvr
Advanced Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 397 Registered: 1-2003 |
For those of you who have read my post, you've probably already worked-out that I have anger fuelled by disappointment regarding this instrument! Which Alan has already spotted btw... Regarding the body design, Susan added two extra curves to the bottom of the body shape I had drawn out and improved access to the 23rd and 24th frets. Both worthwhile modifications I will add. I owned a JayDee for 10 years, the electronics on that were more flexible than the Signature ones. It's my own fault I suppose, I should have understood the Signature electronics more before deciding on them. But for what they cost, I am surprised that it's not possible to add to the sound. It's more like a passive sound system than an active one. My Status basses have active electronics that allow the boost and cut of the sound, which I find more flexible. The neck is modelled on my 4001. Alembic did a fantastic job of the modelling, the neck is lovely! The trouble is, I set-up the bass, the neck will move whilst I play it from the heat of my hand! It always goes convex and not concave too, so the strings catch against the frets and it becomes unplayable. It will do that sitting on its stand over a period of a few hours too. Mica assured me (as it's done this from day one) that the bass will work out that it's not a tree any longer and will settle down. It's two years old now and it's no different. Disappointed? Yes, definitely and even more so when I consider the cost of it. I've had this disappointment bubbling round for some considerable time now. I thought it time I spoke out, freedom of speech and all that. I'm not pointing the finger of blame at anyone, I'm just telling it like it is. | ||
| bigbadbill
Advanced Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 232 Registered: 10-2003 |
Roger, I can only think that the problem lies with your specific neck; maybe the particular pieces of wood used. I've had a custom built (non-Alembic) bass before that had the same problem and it was utterly atypical; the next one I got was fine. Also had the same problem with my first Jaydee, whilst the second was fine. My Alembic doesn't seem to have any movement problems whatsoever so far, and obviously I'm hoping none develop. One thing to factor in is that you also have an extremely low action; my action is considered very low by everyone who plays my basses and yours is much lower than mine. As for sound; I find the electronics to be fine for most things, but I've never tended to use the normal cut/boost facilities on most modern active basses; I tend to like to change the actual quality of the sound (as per Alembic) rather than just add bottom/middle/top to a sound I've already got (I tend to do that at the amp). BTW, I'm still hopefully working towards another Status at some time; not sure which one though! It's unfortunate that it hasn't worked out for you, but unfortunately that's one of the dangers of having a custom built bass, and which is why I'm currently on my third! I suppose the good news is you're obviously happy with your Statii. One interesting thing; I don't know if you've experienced this but many people seem to think Rickenbackers have fragile and unstable necks, but (possibly barring my old P Bass) mine seem to be as stable as anything I've ever played. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 3261 Registered: 6-2000 |
It's been sometime since you've communicated to me about the state of your bass, Roger. I think the last time we communicated at length was when we expidited a small improvement to the Signature electronics. If there is a physical problem with a neck on a bass that we made, we need to know about it, so thanks for giving us the word here. Sadly, in order to do anything about it, I'll need to get the bass in my hands, and I may need it for a considerable amount of time depending on the remedy (which can be as extreme as making a new neck). Our distributor in the UK makes a few trips here annually - maybe he can carry the bass over on his next trip. Would you like me to contact him on your behalf? There isn't any need to let disappointment bubble around. Just let us know what's going to on and we'll endeavor to make it right. | ||
| rogertvr
Advanced Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 398 Registered: 1-2003 |
My 4001 neck was unstable for the first 12 months of its life. After that, it's been mega-stable. That's why I've left the DW until now, 24 months should be long enough surely? The easiest way to describe what happens to the neck is that it's like the old bi-metal bar experiment from your Physics class at school, where one metal expands at a different rate to the other so the bar bends a little. Mica - thanks for the offer. It's probably best if we discuss this off the Club. I'll e-mail you. | ||
| grynchin
Junior Username: grynchin Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2006 |
I am nobody here, but I am curious to any fellow members out there who will answer. I am not a virtuoso or even less than mediocar(spelling?), but I'm curious about this neck problem. These are my specific questions. Would some average joe like me even have an issue with this bass in particular? I do not adjust anything on my bass or guitars except string action once every couple years. In other words, I don't set my action up by a dial indicator(thats for you machinists). I don't have finesse, I play hard and fret hard. I don't play with the levels much, I don't hear what a lot of people hear. So, all that being said, I just want to know would somebody like me even know there was an issue with this neck, or would only really sophisticated, good musicians notice(Keep in mind, I don't care if anyone is at fault or right or wrong, I just want to know what caliber of people or situation is here). | ||
| crgaston
Intermediate Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Brandon! Whaddaya mean, "nobody here"! We love you!(...just don't invite me over for gravy!) How's your Mesa? As to whether you'd have this problem with this bass,it's hard to say for sure, but...the lower the action is, the more important perfection becomes. I imagine that with heavy strings and a high action, the type you need for hard plucking and hard fretting, there wouldn't be a backbow problem. Sounds like the issue, though, is that it's moving enough to make it not just mediocre, but actually unplayable for Roger. People expect an instrument of Alembic's cost and reputation to actually perform for them; to take the best action they have ever played, and to HOLD it. You can get a high action out of almost any bass, even one with a less-than-perfect neck and uneven frets. When you buy Alembic, you have a right to expect more (within the limits of physics, of course). | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1137 Registered: 3-2004 |
Unfortunately for neck stability, wood is alive. I believe Roger is located in the UK and they have pretty famous weather. I suspect that is at least one part of the problem he's having. There are often trade-offs to be made. If you want a skinny neck, then it will be more subject to moving with changes in weather (primarily humidity). If you like a clubby neck, then it will tend to be more stable. Choice of woods and number of laminations will have an impact as well, with more laminations tending to create a stiffer and more stable neck. If you want a neck that doesn't move at all, I would recommend a graphite necked Zon (I don't like Modulus much and never played a Status) or a plywood neck like the old Kubicki or new Parker Fly. The Ric basses I have played have been pretty bulky necks as well, so that might explain why the 4001 is holding up better. On the other hand, if you want a thin wood neck in an environment with variable humidity, you have two choices. Build a good relationship with the local tech or get comfortable with making truss rod adjustments yourself. The adjustments aren't particularly difficult, so I recommend that path where possible. Alembic basses are outstanding instruments, and the necks do tend to become more stable with age. I have one of the thinnest necks they've made and it is very stable. It's only 2-3 years old and, so far, it has moved twice a year when the weather makes big changes. My two 15+ year old Alembics don't move at all. -bob | ||
| grynchin
Junior Username: grynchin Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2006 |
Ah, mesa, mesa, mesa. That's all anybody cares about anymore, except me! No really, its still out to pasture for now. It's not because I'm that lazy, but I am in the middle of making my own guitar. So, the past year of collecting tools and knowledge have been occupying my time. Upon completion of it, which I hope to be in a month or so, I will post some pics of the guitar and the infamous exploding mesa! And as far as the neck description, cool. I definitley understand the level of expectation that you would have for an instrument like that. Thank you Charles for your input. Oh yeah, mediocre, I knew I had it wrong. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 626 Registered: 11-2002 |
I encourage you to work this out directly with Alembic, Roger. And though at first reading I thought perhaps "we" were having a bad day, your patience in letting things age a couple of years is admirable. But I am curious about one particular aspect. You said: "The neck is modelled on my 4001. Alembic did a fantastic job of the modelling, the neck is lovely! The trouble is, I set-up the bass, the neck will move whilst I play it from the heat of my hand! It always goes convex and not concave too, so the strings catch against the frets and it becomes unplayable. It will do that sitting on its stand over a period of a few hours too." Okay, so you go through this procedure once, play or let it sit in the stand for a few hours, and find the neck has lost relief. (By the way, I don't buy the "heat of the hand" business in general, plus that isn't a factor when it's sitting in the stand, right?) So here's the question: what do you do the next time you set up? Are you continually easing the truss rods to get relief, time after time? That seems unlikely, because after just a few times the nuts would go loose. Or do you ease them a bunch, and then tighten them back up just enough to where it feels right - and then immediately start playing? The potential problem here is that it takes a while for the neck to settle, even with only a 1/4 turn or less of adjustment, so you may actually overshoot and not know it for a few hours (maybe even a day). It sounds to me like you are going through this process repeatedly, and I'm sure that would cause you grief. I'm just trying to get a handle on the mechanics here. -Bob | ||
| rogertvr
Advanced Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 399 Registered: 1-2003 |
Good points here, Bob. I currently have an e-mail conversation on the go with Mica about it. Firstly, I'd like to say that the house is centrally heated, so the temperature is more or less constant. I think that is why the warmth from my hand shows if I play it for three constant hours. It doesn't manifest itself often, but nonetheless, sometimes it does. Secondly, I tend to set it up, then let it stand a few hours. Perhaps I should set it up and play it! The weather here in the UK is notorious. It's very humid a lot of the time. I think it is swings in humidity that are causing the problem but I haven't managed to prove that. Read on though, I have a plan... Thirdly, regarding the truss rods. They need to be adjusted either way, depending on what has happened. What amazes me is just how much adjustment is required from one day (sometimes just a few hours) to another. I'm not talking a quarter turn - sometimes it will require a whole turn or more on both rods to get it back to some sort of playable state. Hence the reason that sometimes, I can't even tune an open string as the neck has moved so much. I think you can understand my annoyance after two years of this, every time I want to play it! I have a plan - please ANYONE step in if you think this is a bad idea!! It's like the bass is constantly fighting itself. I was thinking about this last night at length after I went to bed. I'm considering removing the strings from it, releasing the truss rods off altogether, letting it sit around for a few days (weeks?), then doing a complete set-up as though it's just been built. Then I will monitor the humidity / temperature etc and note the set-up dates, what's required to set it up, how it behaves etc. Then a pattern might appear and I can move on from there with it. Any comments? BTW - it currently has Status Hotwires roundwound roundcore on it - 35-55-75-95 but prior to that it had Elites on it (same gauge). The strings have made no difference to the problem... Rog | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3644 Registered: 5-2002 |
Monitoring the humidity sounds like a great idea; and you can start doing that now. If you find that you're having substantial and frequent changes in relative humidity, you might want to look into ways of controlling humidity before doing anything to the bass. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1139 Registered: 3-2004 |
It does sound from your description like you may be over-correcting. As part of your experiment, I would probably limit my adjustments to a half turn per day while you're trying to dial it in. Also, those strings are pretty light. I don't know how stability is impacted by the reduced tension, but there may be a connection there as well. Is this the string set that Alembic had when they were building, or was it initially dialed in for something else? | ||
| rogertvr
Advanced Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 400 Registered: 1-2003 |
I like light strings :-) It was initially set for 40-60-80-100. Which I left on for some time once I got it home. The were Alembic strings, it had the same problems with those strings too. Incidentally, if I do take the strings off and remove the tension from the truss rods, when I want to start setting it up again, how do I go about it? I've never had to do it before. Do I:- 1). Tension the rods up and then tune the strings 2). Tune the strings and then tension the rods 3). Both strings and rods together, a small amount at a time? | ||
| olieoliver
Advanced Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 238 Registered: 2-2006 |
When I make any truss rod adjustments I always do it in small increments. i.e. less than I think it will need. I wait anywhere from 2 days to a week and recheck the bass/guitar to see if it needs any more adjustments. I never try to rush or force the neck, I let the wood react naturally to the string and rod tension. The humidity may be a factor but remember the wood is sealed with a hard finish. I think that tempature would be more of a factor than humidity. Either would have to be pretty drastic changes. I always adjust mine with the bass/guitar in tune. And I never make more than a 1/4 turn on the truss either direction with each adjustment. If it needs more after the wood has settled I will then adjust it more. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 2374 Registered: 9-2002 |
Brother Roger! I suggest we page Doctor Joey! No offence to other skilled set-up brothers in this area but he wrote the most comprehensive thread about it ever! I bet Moder Dave can find it somewhere! Paul TBO | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 627 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think a more structured approach is a good idea, Rog, but I'm not convinced you need to be quite so extreme. I do believe that full turn adjustments are contributing to your problem. Even half is a lot, better if you don't go more than a quarter turn a day - but if you do, then it should definitely sit for a while. The light strings might be something of a factor, in that you would also need less truss rod tension to counteract them. However, it seems to me that Alembic strives to set up the instruments in a way that minimizes the need for a lot of truss rod tension. Since yours was originally set for 40-100, you probably aren't that much different at 35-95, so I would not be inclined to worry about this too much. I think that removing the strings and all tension is more than you want to do. If you think about it, you will once again be forcing the wood to go through more extreme changes. Instead, I would just adjust the neck to where it feels pretty close to right. If necessary, do this over the course of a few days, never more than 1/4 turn at a time. Don't play it. Record temp and humidity (humidity is more likely the culprit), as well as the adjustments you've made, and continue measuring relief (and further adjusting if needed), over the course of a week or two. That should give you some useful trend information. I'm still hopeful that, as in many areas, moderation is the key :-) -Bob | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 401 Registered: 1-2003 |
The project is on. Hopefully time and more patience will be a healer! Thanks for everyone's suggestions and advice thus far. Please keep anything useful coming! | ||
| gare
Advanced Member Username: gare Post Number: 367 Registered: 11-2003 |
Rog..here's the link to Joeys setup info from FAQ's.. http://alembic.com/club/messages/16271/16318.html?1107545767 The only thing I add to his procedure is to let it set overnite after adjusting, then check to see if it's moved. Good luck Gary | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 351 Registered: 11-2003 |
Roger, I would tell you from experience that you will have more problems getting the action you want due to the fact that you use very light gauge strings. I say this because I use .40-.100 DRs, and they give me fits, regardless of bass (and I own Fenders, Gibsons, Rickenbackers, Peavey, Pedulla, and yes, Alembics). Why do I say this? Most manufacturers (from what I understand, anyway) set their basses up with .45-.105 strings (four string basses). Their instruments are primarily designed with that in mind. I've found that if you go with heavier gauges, it's not much of a problem. However, if you go with lighter gauges, it is. I'm not sure of the reason, but I think it's just basic physics. The simple fact is that if you use lighter gauges, there simply isn't enough tension in the string to pull the neck forward, and hence, the strings have nowhere else to go but against the frets, causing buzz. I know this since I've had trouble getting the Essence I have here in Iraq to behave. I attribute some of this due to the weather here (it can be extremely hot and humid, and when it rains, it cools considerably), but also to the fact that I use light gauge strings. This has also been my experience in the U.S., in North Carolina, where the temperature can be both humid and hot, as well as cool when it rains. As I understand it, you like an Entwistle type action on your instruments, e.g., very low. For this type of set up to work, a light touch is a must. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know already, but mention it only because I've experienced the same problem. I tend to put my right hand closer to the bridge, and I tend also to dig in quite a bit. I find that placing my hand here mitigates the buzzing of the strings simply because the tension is greater, and there is less tendency for the string to vibrate against the frets, causing buzz. When I move my right hand closer to the neck, just the opposite is true; the string begins hitting the frets due to the lowered string tension, and has more of a tendency to buzz. However, this can be useful. Stanley Clarke does just this, and he gets some really neat tones out of his instruments. What I'd recommend is following Joey's method - quite simply put, it works. You will need feeler gauges and a capo at a minimum; a ruler or string height gauge are useful as well. I bought my feeler gauges at a hardware store, but you can also buy them at www.stew-mac.com. Same goes for the string height gauge. Also, Dan Erlewine has some great books and DVDs on the subject of guitar repair and setup; I got the DVDs, and they are a godsend. Also available via Stew-Mac. You will, as others have noted, have to give the neck time to adjust after making your changes. The advice about letting it sit a day or two is a good one, and it works. Again, this has been my experience with all my basses, regardless of marque. I hope you can get things right and get the DW playing the way you want it. Let us know how it goes, and best of luck. Best regards, Alan | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 604 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Roger. Can't add much to this other than to wish you luck and hope this gets sorted. FWIW, I've had my rogue in Scotland for 14 months now and only had to adjust the truss rods once in that time and I suspect we get even more 'humidity' up here than most. Graeme | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 848 Registered: 6-2002 |
I wonder how come this thread was started in the "Fun Stories" section? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3648 Registered: 5-2002 |
Adriaan wrote: "I wonder how come". Hee hee; now where did you pick that up??!! <g> | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 850 Registered: 6-2002 |
That's about as much jive speak as I can muster. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3651 Registered: 5-2002 |
A thought occurred to me, and I may be way off base here, but I thought I would throw it out for discussion. I can't recall what kind of stand Roger uses, if he's ever mentioned it, but if it's one of those stands where the bass hangs by its headstock, then, if the bass has a super thin neck, and a heavy body, and low tension strings, then, could hanging by the headstock have some effect on the neck? | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 852 Registered: 6-2002 |
I was thinking the same - my Spoiler was acting up with the recent rise in temperature, with averages now over 10 degrees Celsius, which was producing extra rattle on the G string. The fretless Epic hanging next to it didn't have the same symptoms, but then again it's setup differently - and of course it has no frets to speak of. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 738 Registered: 9-2002 |
If it were me, I know how I would approach this. I would only say that your brain can REALLY get into a failure loop, cris-crossing back through many adjustments IF you're not writing down your changes as you search for the right combination. Since Roger and Mica are working through this, I would not choose to muddy the water at this time. J o e y PS After turning ALL of my basses into LOGS at one time or another while trying to learn this, I COMPLETELY understand Roger's utter frustration, I've BEEN THERE ! ! ! (Message edited by bigredbass on April 19, 2006) | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 402 Registered: 1-2003 |
It's on a QuikLok QL691 stand - the fully adjustable stand that fits any bizarrely-shaped instrument. So it's not hung by the headstock. Mica has made some great suggestions to me, I have created a form to log everything I can think of that is useful. I need to fit it in around my new business which is taking a lot of my time, so it's going to be a process of a few weeks as opposed to days I suspect. Perhaps that's not a bad thing though... | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 544 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hey Roger, There's some really good advice here regarding how to deal with the unstable neck. The only idea I can add that seems to help calm it down (at least a little) is to loosen the truss rods, making sure the Bass is tuned to maintain the tension, and lay it flat on its back (in its case) when not playing it. I also recommend the .045 - .105 guage strings- their extra mass helps with stability and (in my opinion) provides a fuller overall sound. The only time I go with extra light guage strings is when I want to relieve some tenson on the neck (with a concave bend) and when adjusting the truss rod isn't enough. That helps a little with the convex bend issue - at least for me. It also helps to store it in a room with a de-humidifier. I know how humid it can get in London. I've seen sun and rain (sometimes heavy) cycling all day at times! As for the Signature/Series electronics, I personally prefer blending pickups and adjusting tone controls (tone shaping) rather than Bass and Treble controls. I leave that to the amplier (or mixer). I feel that I get a purer sound from the Bass that way. Good luck, Rami | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 403 Registered: 1-2003 |
Well, it's been a month since I started the exercise to address the DW neck. Firstly, I started using Joey's instructions and applied them over the course of a week or so. I thought that there wasn't much I didn't already know regarding bass guitar set-up, but I did learn a couple of things so they're definitely worthwhile! Sadly, no-one has told the DW neck about Joey so nothing changed! Secondly, in desperation, I then took the strings off the damn thing, released the truss rods and left it sitting on the stand for a week. I then fitted new strings (same type and gauge as it had on it a week earlier), then set about applying Joey's instructions again. They really are spot-on and give an easy way to follow a set-up for a bass - all credit for Joey for them! Everything was going well, I've been logging temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure. I've been making small adjustments, logging everything that I have done, when I have done it, all of the weather data at the time I made the adjustments. The whole instrument eventually became really sweet! Then last week, 16 May, the whole thing was unplayable! Literally overnight - strings on the frets from the 4th fret to the 14th fret. I was expecting the humidity to have changed but it hadn't - however, from my test dates and times over the whole time I've conducted this experiment, the only change overnight when the whole thing became unplayable was the atmospheric pressure. If the atmospheric pressure is around the 1000mb mark (which is generally where it has been as I've made adjustments to the bass), it all stays pretty stable, regardless of humidity. The atmospheric pressure went up to 1014mb (no change on humidity) and it all became unplayable. I've waited until the atmospheric pressure dropped and that the humidity is the same as it has been throughout the whole experiment, and lo and behold the whole instrument is sweet again. Does atmospheric pressure really affect instruments in this way? Please can someone shed some light on this, I really am at a loss now! Cheers, Rog | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 648 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, it's been more than a couple of days, so someone has to respond :-) I don't have an answer for you, Rog, just more questions. Frankly, it would not have occurred to me to record atmospheric pressure, though maybe it's good that you did. Still, 14mb isn't an outrageous amount, and I am at a loss to explain why it might matter. So for now, maybe we could just clarify a few things about your procedure. I'll propose a sequence of events, and you can correct as needed. 1) You took off the strings, released truss rod tension for a week, then put on new strings. Fine - probably overkill, but at least you know you were thorough. 2) You got comfortable with Joey's technique, especially the parts about making small adjustments and measuring, and things got better. No questions here either. 3) At 2-3 weeks with the new strings, things got "really sweet". So here's the first question: was the bass then stable? Were you able to play for several days or a week, without making any further adjustments? 4) Pressure increased, and the neck suddenly straightened out. I assume you mean that you started buzzing from the 4th to 14th frets, so you suddenly lost some relief, right? Were you able to measure the change in relief? 5) Pressure returned to normal, and the instrument is sweet again. Important question here: did you make any adjustments after step 3? I.e., did you attempt to adjust when the pressure increased, and/or when it returned to normal, or did you just leave it alone without making any adjustments during this peak? It would be very interesting to know if the neck - without any manual adjustment - went from "proper" relief, to not enough relief, and then back to proper. Just for perspective, when it was sweet, what were the measurements for relief and string height? And if we have a meteorologist or something out there: if I measured 1014mb at sea level, how far up would I have to go to read 1000mb? (I need to get up early, and am not going off to research this tonight...). -Bob | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 896 Registered: 6-2002 |
How good is your hygrometer? Did you ever check against the Meteorology Office website or whatever it's called over there - they should have local readings available from all over the country. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3867 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bob; thanks for reviving the thread. When I first read about the pressure change, I ran several searches of the site looking for a past thread that had talked about air pressure in relation to shipping a bass in the hold of an airplane; I thought it might be on point, but I couldn't find it. I might be completely misreading and misunderstanding this, but a quick search finds that as a "rule of thumb " .. "pressure decreases with altitude" .. "1 millibar for each 8 meters of altitude gain" .. "for elevations or altitudes of less than two or three thousand feet". Source. Here is a table showing that if the pressure at sea level is 1013, then the pressure at 1000 meters is 900 and at 2000 meters is 800. And there is a really cool looking formula here. Thus it would appear that in answer to your question, the increase in elevation required for a pressure drop of 14 millibars from a starting point of 1014 at sea level would be approximately 112 meters or 367 feet. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3868 Registered: 5-2002 |
Roger; to address your question, given my post above, it seems unlikely that a pressure increase of 14 millibars would be enough to have a substantial effect. | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 404 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'll try and answer this lot! Thanks for responding, first of all! The measurements I've been using are from the local weather centre, which is about 5 miles as the crow flies. They're updated every hour, so I note the playability of the bass, the time, then wait an hour to get the weather conditions. Interestingly, using Joey's instructions to get the bass sweet, it was then stable for quite sometime - I'm writing this at work so I don't have the measurements/dates to hand. But it was interesting that the atmospheric pressure didn't really change much during that whole time. When the pressure went up, the humidity remained the same. To answer Bob's question about measuring the relief in the neck at this point, that's a pretty easy answer - very little! It had all disappeared. At this point, I made the decision to leave it alone, and wait for the humidity and/or atmospheric pressure to change. The humidity was all over the place but it made no difference, so I kept testing the bass until the atmospheric pressure reduced (which happened one night, overnight, a few days ago). Lo and behold - one playable, sweet bass. The humidity has been all over the place again but that has made no difference to it at all. I've waited for another high pressure, high humidity day, and I've set it up as I like it. It's been fine since, so I'm keeping my eye on it. It's definitely atmospheric pressure that's making the difference to it. I find it hard to believe but that's what the data is telling me. What I need now is a high atmospheric pressure day where the pressure goes to something like 1025mb or 1030mb and see what it's like then. Maybe if we get a summer this year, then I'll be able to find out! | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 901 Registered: 6-2002 |
Roger, My thoughts on humidity were that perhaps you had been logging readings from a hygrometer inside your home. Humidity indoors or out can be completely different, and it's not really clear from your description whether it was your indoor hygrometer or the local weather centre's outdoors humidity reading that was "all over the place". One would expect the indoor humidity to follow the outdoor humidity, with perhaps lesser extremes. Perhaps you have air conditioning, and it has been on-and-off? Usually has a big impact on indoors humidity. | ||
| spliffy
Member Username: spliffy Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2003 |
Roger, I feel your frustration. Your bass is exquisite and to have this sort of thing happen is terrible. I do not expect this sort of thing to happen to a Fender, never mind a custom Alembic! I would stop wasting time and send her back to Alembic to investigate. just my 2 cents. Al | ||
| lidon2001
Intermediate Member Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 163 Registered: 4-2005 |
Hi Roger, May I suggest Rotosound Funkmasters? I sent Alembic a set of Status strings to install on my MK, but the strings just wouldn't let the neck setup. My bass is short scale, so I don't know how far one can take the comparison. They put on the Roto's, and it plays like a dream. Of course, they are only good for about 5-10 hours of playing before going dull. It was a compromise I was willing to make. If you're not, I understand. Tom | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 405 Registered: 1-2003 |
To answer the questions here... 1). Adriaan - I've been taking measurements from the local weather site. I have no way of measuring anything for myself. However, the house has no air conditioning and is centrally heated. The central heating is permanently switched on, so the temperature stays fairly constant unless the weather pushes it above 18C (not at the moment, not in this country!!!!). 2). Tom - it's behaved like this from day one. It had Alembic strings on it then, then it had Elites, now it has Status Hotwires. None of the strings have made any sort of difference. Interestingly, I last set it up on 23 May - humidity at 70% and atmospheric pressure at 1011.9mb. There was little relief in the neck, the action was low and it played beautifully. Today, the humidity is 69%. the atmospheric pressure has dropped to 1004.7mb. It still plays wonderfully, but on noting the relief in the neck, there is, relatively speaking, a lot! The action is higher too, I could tell from the first three notes I played that the action is higher. Any further suggestions anyone? It is definitely atmospheric pressure that is causing this movement in the neck. From what I can see, this instrument is never going to settle. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 650 Registered: 11-2002 |
So now you have one time where the pressure increased by 14mb and the neck became straighter, and a second case where the pressure dropped by about 7mb and the relief increased, right? That would be consistent, but it still makes no sense - I can't see how pressure could have this effect, and certainly not such small changes. Could you be a little more specific, regarding "The humidity has been all over the place again but that has made no difference to it at all"? And what type of heating do you have? Personally, I would go out and buy a hygrometer to monitor indoor humidity for a week or so, comparing it to what you get from the local weather station. I think we're missing something here. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1174 Registered: 3-2004 |
Interesting. I think you need to get a little humidity measurement device if you really want to know. The humidity in your house with central heating always on probably doesn't match the outside world measurement. I know that the more the heat is running in my house, the drier it is, regardless of what's going on outside. | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 406 Registered: 1-2003 |
By "the humidity has been all over the place" I mean it has varied from 45% to 95%. This whole thing makes no sense to me. Either I am missing something or this business with atmospheric pressure really is having a drastic effect. I'll carry on monitoring it. | ||
| georgie_boy
Junior Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2005 |
Hi Roger I would go 100% with spliffy & lidon 2001's view!! I own a Series 1 . I use extra light strings 30 50 70 90 and it was set up by the bass centre in London nearly 6 years ago. It is still as good as it was when it arrived, action great and sounding just like a Series bass. What I'm trying to say is, that I live in Scotland, where the weather is always suspect and generally very humid. I leave my windows open all year round, with the bass sitting on a stand in the corner of my living room and she is NEVER up nor down, so all this talk about humidity etc. really baffles me Simple answer--if mine is OK then most other Alembics should be OK as the temp and humidity in Scotland would really test an instrument. Solution----difficult, but as the previous guys said, I think the problem is inherent and that really, the only answer is to send the bass back to Valhala and let them figure out what is going on. I agree with rogertvr, as the humidity here goes mad nearly every day, and I have NO ill effects | ||
| bigbadbill
Advanced Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 236 Registered: 10-2003 |
Roger, I live in Blackpool and as yet have had no problems to speak of with my Triple O in terms of neck movement. So I suspect it must be the bass itself. As I've said previously, I've had the same problem with a non-Alembic custom built bass which I just could not get to settle down; after 3 years or so I sold it. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1324 Registered: 7-2004 |
Shouldn't this thread be in "troubleshooting" instead of "fun stories"? No offense, Roger, (and I do hope your neck settles down), but this doesn't sound like "fun". Bill, tgo | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 400 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm not sure if a comparison to a bass with standard oval inlays (or no inlay) is fair. After all, Roger is dealing with a lot more than just ebony and maple when it comes to movement of the neck on his bass. I am not anything like an expert on how environmental factors affect the wood in a musical instrument, I usually just play defense - when something changes, I adjust the guitar. Perhaps the inlay on the surface of the fingerboard has little effect, but it seems to me that the elaborate art on the neck of Roger's bass might preclude ordinary explanations. Just a thought. Peace Tom (Message edited by tom_z on May 27, 2006) (Message edited by tom_z on May 27, 2006) | ||
| jalevinemd
Senior Member Username: jalevinemd Post Number: 435 Registered: 12-2003 |
Bill, I literally logged on to say the same thing. This seems like anything but 'fun.' I really feel for you Roger. My slightly obsessive personality wouldn't allow me to sleep until I had this one figured out. | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 653 Registered: 10-2002 |
Roger - Just my opinion, but if it was mine it would be straight back to the mothership for treatment. No offence intended here but I doubt if you're going to reach any meaningful conclusions about humidity/atmospheric pressure without your own set of measuring equipment and i suspect you'd be happier in yourself if the problem was out of your hands. George - if you are leaving your window open I'm coming across there with a big sack;-) graeme | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3872 Registered: 5-2002 |
George; your bass is 30 years old and Roger's is less than three years old. If as you say "all this talk about humidity etc. really baffles" you, then you may wish to read this post about wood, age, humidity, moisture, etc. I believe that post suggests that your statement "if mine is OK then most other Alembics should be OK" is probably not wholly accurate. Roger; depending on your heating source, the indoor humidity can be significantly different from the outdoor humidity. I don't have air conditioning in my house, but even on a warm day, if the outdoor humidity is high, I close the windows. My guess is that the humidity changes in your house are not necessarily the same as the humidity changes outside, and that the neck movements you are seeing are related to changes in indoor humidity. If you take a shower and have the windows closed and don't use an exhaust fan, you will raise the indoor humidity. If you build a fire in the fireplace, you will significantly lower the indoor humidity. A central oil or gas heating system will signicantly reduce humidity. (Interestingly, some indoor stand along non-vented gas stoves do not take humidity out of the air.) If you cut the heat off and open all the windows, then the indoor humidity will be the same as the outdoor humidity; however, on a calm day it will take a while to get there, but on a windy day it will get there quickly. All basses will react to changes in humidity differently; it just depends on the particular piece of wood. But generally, the newer the bass, the more susceptible to changes in humidity and the older the bass, the less susceptible to humidity. Many folks in this forum have reported that they make neck adjustments twice a year, in the spring and the fall, when the humidity makes a big change, since in many areas winters are dry and summers are humid. So I agree with the others that you should purchase a "hygrometer to monitor indoor humidity". I have indoor and outdoor hygrometers and I monitor both constantly to make sure my basses are not subject to a sudden change in humidity. While I can't do anything about changes in outdoor humidity, I can do things about the indoor humidity and my indoor environment is much more constant and controlled and within reasonable parameters than the outdoor environment. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3873 Registered: 5-2002 |
Several people have suggested giving the bass to some cargo handlers and having them toss it into the cargo hold of an airplane and then quite quickly force the instrument through some significant changes in both barometric pressure and humidity and then have some more cargo handlers toss it in a truck and deliver it half way around the world to an environment that probably differs significantly to the one that the bass calls home. I tend to think that maybe we should run down this indoor humidity thing first before we try that. <g> But more seriously, I'm not a luthier. Perhaps it is indeed some kind of unusual problem with the neck; I dont' know, I'm not a luthier. But personally, at the very least, I'ld purchase a $30 hygrometer and try that before shipping my bass around the world. | ||
| jorge_s
Member Username: jorge_s Post Number: 86 Registered: 8-2002 |
Atmospheric pressure influences gases. Unless there is major amounts of gas trapped inside the wood cells I doubt that slight barometric variations would alter the neck that much. Humidity, that is a very different story. Here is a link that explains how atmospheric pressure influences maple sap flow if anyone finds it interesting:http://www.massmaple.org/flow.html | ||
| grynchin
Junior Username: grynchin Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2006 |
Humidity is going to be a huge piece to this puzzle, as has been stated. Again, what kind of heat do you have in your house? Wood heat is the worst. Humidity indoors can be crazy and have damaging effects on wood. Take hardwood floors for instance. Have you ever seen cracked, dry, ugly floors--lack of humidity. How about swollen, cupped, uneven, ugly floors--too much humidity. And these floors are sanded and treated with a protective finish just like your guitar. Except with floors you don't have to worry about intonation, string action, etc. There are all sorts of hygrometers on the market. I use a $20 hygrometer I got from Radio Shack. It reads temperature and relative humidity. I worry about my humidity more in the winter, because of the great lack of humidity in my home(due to low humidity outside, and the fact that my heat pump robs the humidity from the air too). If my humidity gets low, I wake up with a dry and sore throat, I am prone to nose bleeds, and have more sinus problems. I have mixed emotions about hygrometers. I prefer to keep them in one spot. They can be very slow to changes in humidity. If you had it indoors and humidity was 40%, then took it outside and humidity was at 90%, it probably would not pick up the change for a good while. So you can forget about taking all over the house and outside and trying to get a bunch of readings all at once. Keep it in one spot, right beside your beloved DW. Monitor it several times daily. I have always heard that for a guitar the humidity should be at least 35% and no more than 55%. Do you oil your fingerboard regularly, at all, or never? | ||
| jorge_s
Member Username: jorge_s Post Number: 87 Registered: 8-2002 |
In my shop I keep this hygrometer:http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?searchtext=gift&Submit=Search&NameProdHeader=Hygrometer It is so sensitive that it detects changes in humidity between rooms. It reacts instantaneously. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 652 Registered: 11-2002 |
Looks great, but at US$150 perhaps a bit more than Roger really needs at the moment? I'm convinced that indoor humidity is the culprit here - not strings, not inlays, not a manufacturing defect, not atmospheric pressure, not the way Roger looks at it in the morning when he wakes up. Roger, please pick up a modestly priced hygrometer, something that is accurate within about 5%, place it next to your bass, and add it to your recording regimen. And again, what type of heat do you have, and would you please post some numbers on your relief and string height? | ||
| georgie_boy
Junior Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2005 |
Thanks Dave for the thread on moisture and woods. It really taught me a few things that I, and probably many other owners didn't realise.Makes me feel a bit of a geek to have put my$0.02 woth in when really, I didn't know all that much on the subject. Suppose in a round about way I was just trying to help sove Roger's problem by eliminating one of the factors. I stand humbly corrected!! Graeme------windows now closed!!!!! george | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 212 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's another vote for humidity changes as being the culprit here. I live in Delaware, in the the Mid-Atlantic region of the USA. According to my home weather station (ok, I admit it, I am a weather geek) the relative humidity in my house has ranged from 5% to 61% this year. That's a lot of moisture soaking into, and being sucked out of, the cells that make of the wood in my basses! Roger, you mentioned that your house is centrally heated, which is great for human comfort and awful for basses. Forced air heat is particularly awful as the relative humidity of air will drop when it is heated (assuming that your heater, like most) is not designed to add moisture in the process). It is common for the relative humidity in a building with forced air heat to hover in range of 20% - 30%. Contrast that with average relative humidity in London, which ranges from the 70% -75% or more in the winter to 55-65% in the summer. The swing between indoor (central heat) humidity and outdoor (real) humidity is often most problematic in the spring, when we begin to open our windows and let the outside air inside. Your basses have been living in dry air (perhaps 25%-30% relative humidity all winter long, and all of a sudden the air becomes moist (55%-60% RH). That's why I call the spring "truss rod time." Similar problems can crop up in the summer if you live in a part of the world that is influenced by maritime air (which is quite moist) and where central air conditioning is common (like the US East and Gulf coasts), especially if you keep you basses inside where it is cool and dry and sometimes gig outdoors where the relative humidity is quite high. Are Alembics more susceptible to neck movement than some other basses as a consequence of seasonal changes in humidity? In my experience, the answer is yes, but to a very minor degree. Every season I need to tweak my truss rods by perhaps 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, but NEVER MORE THAN THAT. I have some other basses that don't seem to move at all. I have no idea why that is so, but to me it is a big "so what" because the process of tweaking the truss rod takes me maybe 5 mintues twice a year. Once I make the seasonal adjustments (at the beginning and end of the heating season) my Alembics are very, very stable throughout the year (unless I play an outside gig in the very humid summer months). However, that's really not the issue here. I have found one is more likely to notice fret buzzes as a consequence of a little bit of neck movement due to seasonal humidity swings on an Alembic because they are so well built that it's possible to set them up with much lower action than other basses will tolerate, and that's what we often do. If you set your basses up with a standard amount of relief (say, .015" as measured at the 9th fret) and medium action (say, 3/16" on the B or E string at the 24th fret) you may never notice the relatively small changes in neck relief due seasonal humidity swings. If you like lower action than that, or less neck relief (i.e. "Entwistle action") you will notice the buzzes caused by humidity changes, but it's also true that most basses (other than Alembics) are not capable of action that low in the first place. It's kind of a one of those good news/bad news dichotomies...the good news is that Alembics are capable of super-low action, and the bad news is that set-ups with super-low action are more likely to require regular maintenance as a result of seasonal changes in humidity. I'll bet that once you get the hang of the careful and incremental adjustments necessary to properly set up your bass, as explained above, your bass will be quite stable and only require tweaking in the spring and fall. (Message edited by s_wood on May 28, 2006) | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 407 Registered: 1-2003 |
If only I could agree with s_wood... Everything written applies completely to every other bass I own except the DW. The graphite basses need a 1/4 turn on the truss rod in the spring and then 1/4 in the opposite direction in the autumn. Job done. My 4001 never seems to move at all but that is getting on in life a little now ;-) Regarding the heating in my house - it's centrally heated but it's not forced air. It's just radiators on the wall. I appreciate that the air probably is drier than the air outside, judging by the amount of hand cream I get through to stop my hands cracking. I could live with the DW if it was the odd adjustment here and there and it happened every now and again. But for something to change within the space of a few hours from sweet to unplayable is unacceptable. I'm going to try and get hold of a hygrometer and start the process again from scratch. Then I'll start posting actual measurements and see if any of you kind folk can shed any more light on the subject. Expect this process to take a few more weeks at least. Incidentally, the reason I started this thread in the "Fun Stories" section can be summed-up with one word. Irony. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 446 Registered: 2-2005 |
Irony. Isn't that like goldy or silvery? Sorry I couldn't resist. Keith | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 653 Registered: 11-2002 |
Roger, I wouldn't start over "from scratch" - in particular, don't remove the strings, relax the truss rods completely, etc. The object is to let things stabilize, zeroing in with small adjustments until they are needed very infrequently. It seems you already got surprisingly close to that, with only a couple of bad days, right? Just continue the same process, while recording an extra bit of information that many of us believe to be highly relevant. As I recall, you do like your action extremely low, and I think Steve's comments about that are spot-on. If you're always right on the edge, you may have to tweak it a bit more often (though it would still be nice to understand why). How does the relief and string height compare to your other basses? Are "radiators on the wall" the old steam radiators (usually on the floor over here), or some newer style of radiant heat? | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 408 Registered: 1-2003 |
I never was brilliant at explaining what I really meant! Bob - what I really meant was that I would start over with the measurements. I'll leave the bass set as it is now and record everything from that point onwards. Although as it stands at the moment, nothing is going to get done for a few days as I've injured my foot and I can hardly walk. As for low action - yes, I like it low (so to speak). In fact, I sometimes have to tweak the graphite basses just a little as they will rattle a little too much but they're still playable - just a tolerance sort of thing going on there. So I have no problem with the odd tweak here and there (as required) with any of my instruments. What I do have a problem with is this bass going from sweet to "strings lying on frets" in the space of - quite literally - 3 or 4 hours. Now - I do run them lower than a low thing and I appreciate that at that sort of tolerance, the slightest change will manifest itself. But to go from low-sweet to low-strings-on-frets (4th fret to 14th fret) in 3 hours is just TOO MUCH!!! An aside here (just for the sake of a story to lighten the moment), a conversation I had in passing with a guy I worked with for a while a couple of years ago. This is an interesting one this, even though it doesn't relate to the DW in any way. He owned a few basses, most notably a pre-CBS vintage Precision, a 4001 (1980 - same as mine) and a Jaydee Mark King Supernatural (I also owned one at the time). I bought my Jaydee because I played a pre-owned one in a music shop and, to this day, it was the lowest action and sweetest playing bass I have ever laid hands on. The one I got after I had ordered it new was horrible. I like the action on my basses in the 0.7mm to 0.8mm range (except my 4001 which doesn't go that low) and the best the Jaydee could do was 2.5mm. The guy I was working with reckoned his Jaydee was well low, and reported back with an action at - you've guessed it - 2.5mm. I told him my 4001 was 1.4mm, and the DW & Status basses were about 0.75mm. He asked me if they actually play! Which of course they do (stability aside)! It's been a good time of the year for me to do this exercise with DW. I have blue tits nesting right outside my music room window, so I've banned myself from playing using my amplifiers since they started nesting a month or so ago and the ban is running until the young birds fledge and leave my property. It's costing me a small fortune in mealworms though as the blue tits, robins and starlings are all searching for food so I like to help if I can. I feel like an anxious parent! Still, it's given me chance to get some camcorder footage of the birds that normally there would be no chance of obtaining! Life isn't all about moving necks on bass guitars! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3885 Registered: 5-2002 |
Cool story about the birds! | ||
| dfung60
Intermediate Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2002 |
It's been interesting watching this thread blossom over time. The action you're aiming for is very low, and it seems to me that you may be suffering from the unfortunate confluence of a neck which is more sensitive to environmental conditions as well. If you have seen John Entwistle's book "Bass Culture" which documents many of the instruments in his collection along with notes, you'll see that he (also famous for playing with low action) had many of his Alembics and Buzzards built with graphite necks (by Modulus) so he would have any chance of maintaining a playable instrument on the road. I remember visiting Modulus around the time they had received one of his prototype Warwick Buzzards to be reproduced by Modulus. They were just getting ready to carve the neck buck (master for the graphite mold) carved to duplicate the wood neck profile and contacted his road tech to make sure it was set up properly. They were shocked to find that it had been sent exactly as John played it, which was a virtually unplayable setup for anybody else. You may have seen pictures of the autographed green Modulus Buzzard which was ultimately raffled off in Bass Player magazine. This was one of the first Modulus Buzzards completed which was delivered to John as The Who tour passed through Oakland and was rejected because - if you can believe this - the action was TOO LOW (it had some non-functional neck LEDs too). I played it when it came back to the shop and it really almost impossible for me to tell when I was fretting a string or not (I play a pretty high action, so it was totally buzz city for me). They asked if I was interested in buying it, but it was pretty eye-blinkingly expensive (well, maybe not to Alembic folks), even at the buddy-buddy price which basically reflected the labor and material costs. And who (should that be "Who"?) dares actually play a Buzzard in front of people? Wood is a natural product and even with choice selection and additional strength from laminations, you won't know how it turns out until it's done. This neck might be fine in the hands of somebody who plays with higher action so there's not really a defect other than the issue of suitableness for the owner. If this is indeed an issue of humidity (I think it's that much more than these small variations in barometric pressure), it seems to me that applying a heavy coat of wax to the fingerboard may help. The back side of the neck is largely isolated from the environment by the varnish, but the fingerboard is totally exposed. As the humidity (or pressure) goes up and down, it's much more likely that the fingerboard is flexing the neck, a coat of wax may reduce that effect. I'd recommend finding a pure carnauba wax for this, as it's harder and has better sealing capabilities. You should probably avoid waxes with silicone in them (this would be any of the easy-on auto waxes) as it makes the fingerboard blotchy looking and hard to refinish. You can get pure carnauba wax at a woodworker's supply, or auto paint store (and yes, it will be that one can of wax that's about 3x the cost of the others). Wax is easy to do. If it helps, then you might consider having the fingerboard finished with polymerizing penetrating oil, like tung oil. This will have the same effect but is much more durable. Another thing to check it so see whether you need a fret leveling. With tolerances so tight because of low action, you're much more susceptible to buzzing because of a high or low fret as well as localized warping. If you have a good fret leveling performed (perhaps even have some extra relief cut into the fret tops in the middle) you may find that the climatic variations don't bug you as much. You might try seeing whether the fret tops are really level with a straightedge when the playability is problematic. All it takes is one high fret in the upper octaves to make for a very buzzy instrument. Good luck, David Fung | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3922 Registered: 5-2002 |
Interestingly, I had an experience last night similar to Roger's. Yesterday was a wonderful day here with perfect temperature and humidity. I had the windows open and tuned up my rig and got some practice in before my gig. Loaded up, drove to the gig (in a venue that was new to us), set up and started playing. The temperature there was nice too, and the venue had their doors open, right next to the band area. The relative humidity must have been significantly higher, for by the third song I had terrible buzzing in the lower frets. We took a very short break and I made a quick adjustment to the truss rods. The bass was back to normal and the rest of the gig went great. | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 841 Registered: 12-2002 |
what i find funny & strange is that Lots & most non-alembic players as well as musicians have no Clue as-to what type of Bass it is I'm playing,and when i tell them they ask.....Wow Alembic is still in Business? I guess since alembic does not deal with guitar center any longer which is where most cats hang out in big cities, they dont see them that much,,,,,"Outa sight-outa mind"??? | ||
| keurosix
Junior Username: keurosix Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2005 |
Roger, when you say you like your action in the 0.7mm ~ 0.8mm range, where do you measure this? At the 12th fret? This is extremely low action and it is no wonder that your set up is affected by all sorts of things: Humidity, hand warmth, gage of string and age of string, etc. The fact that you also prefer a light gage string compounds the problem. I once had a Series 1 bass that came from the factory with medium gage flat wound strings. When I got it, I changed the strings to a medium-light gage roundwound string. I had buzzing problems, and found that the strings did not have enough tension to pull the neck concave to add a bit of relief. My truss rods were backed off, and still no relief from the string tension. It appeared that the bass was manufactured for the medium gage flatwound string in mind. Note that a medium gage flatwound string actually is a very large dense string. This string had enough tension to pull the neck and add the correct amount of relief, but the thinner roundwound string did not. I compromised by accepting a low action, but switched to a medium gage roundwound string. It was not my ideal setup, but it worked. I tend to agree with Dave fung about touching up the frets. A good tune-up by a luthier can do wonders. If you could send it back to Alembic I'm sure they could do the best to get it where you would be happy. I don't know if they could remove the fingerboard without damage to the beautiful inlay, but maybe some graphite stiffeners underneath would minimize the unwanted movement. | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 409 Registered: 1-2003 |
I thought I'd add an update to the current situation with my bass. I bought a hygrometer. It's a digital one, it measures temperature and humidity. It also records the highest and lowest readings too. The weather here in the UK has been absolutely glorious since the hygrometer arrived. The temperature has been well into the 20C's, almost 30C on some days. Humidity has been around the 40% mark. The DW has been fine - no movement worth mentioning, the strings are low (I measure the action at the 24th fret - it's a little higher at the 12th fret due to a small amount of relief in the neck), there's no rattling, buzzing - it's been very well behaved. I'll carry on monitoring it, the weather here is bound to go down the tubes soon, this is England after all!! Then I can see what happens when we get back to what is more normal UK weather. One thing that had entered my head is that maybe I am trying to push the instrument beyond its design capability and that if I back-off my expectations just a little, it might all settle down? | ||
| karl
Member Username: karl Post Number: 88 Registered: 7-2002 |
I realise that the very mention of the name Alembic automatically gives us high expectations, especially when you consider that John Entwistle apparently managed to get his Alembics to do what you are trying to get yours to do. But I have to say that the action you're striving to maintain on that bass of yours seems murderously low - I can't imagine how refined your technique must be to keep that thing under control when you're playing. I used to think my action was low, but it's nothing like that, and in fact, I've found that by raising it a touch I actually get a better tone - the string can resonate further without the frets interfering. I started out trying to emulate the (apparently) ridiculously low action of some of my heroes, but over the years, I've developed my own sound by moving away from straight aping of their technique and set-up, and I believe that's a positive step. However, I realise that if you're in a top-flight Who tribute band, then you're in a very different position - you're being paid to emulate your hero's sound and technique, and of course, having your bass set up as his was is all part of that. It's a tricky call - on the one hand, yes, I'd say your expectations are high and you should try backing off a little and let the bass play the way it wants to, but on the other hand, if any bass should be able to meet those high expectations, an Alembic should (as John showed). Do please let me know if you play out around London - I'd love to see and hear this legendary bass of yours (and the technique that goes with an action that low! :0) )! Yours, Karl | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 932 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hygrometer at 40%? That's pretty low for indoors - we're at 70% right now, with glorious summer weather in the Netherlands. Could be because we live near the coast? | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 213 Registered: 5-2002 |
The time of day at which one measures humidity will affect the results substantially. At my house yesterday, the relative humidity ranged from a high of 93% to a low of 45%. Typically, the highest readings will be observed just before sunrise (Which is usually the coolest part of the day) and the (Message edited by davehouck on June 14, 2006) | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 934 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'll try and get some round-the-day readings at our appartment tomorrow - don't expect a reading just before sunrise, that just won't happen! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3965 Registered: 5-2002 |
Adriaan; as a general rule working musicians do not do anything just before sunrise <g>. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3966 Registered: 5-2002 |
I watch my indoor and outdoor hygrometers throughout the day, opening and closing windows and doors as needed. I also check weather.com to get a forcast of what the outdoor humidity is expected to do each day. As Steve said, outdoor relative humidity can change substantially during the day; thus I use windows and doors to try to keep indoor humidity changes within a smaller range. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 935 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave; thanks for the accolade but I don't think I qualify as a working musician. Working guy - yes. Musician - debatable. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1373 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dave: Not true!!! Professional musicians (blue collar type, not superstars) often return from the gig, unload, and drop the equipment off at the studio just before sunrise! Big fun!!!! (not) LOL Bill, "been there, done that", tgo | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 418 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dave, that may have been rule of thumb, but todays musicians are much more industrious than the players of the past. Most musicians I know are more into the "bussiness" of music instead of the non-stop "party" of the past. Of course there are still those that the sun will surely melt. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3968 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill; I knew someone would call me on that! Fortunately, with most of the gigs I've been doing lately I've been able to load up, drive home, unload, and be in bed by not too much later than 3:00. Olie; I was just kidding, lots of professional musicians work the day shift. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 660 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just gotta ask, Dave (and it is straying slightly back on topic) - how many times a day do you actually check the humidity, approximately what range are you able to maintain (or how much can you compensate for), and at what point does it become a problem? And how do you get over the panic of actually having to leave the house for a gig, especially if it's up or down hill by a few hundred feet? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3971 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bob; I have no idea how may times a day; I'm sure it varies significantly day to day. A dozen times would seem a good guess at an average. Of course I'm checking temperature at the same time. My house doesn't have air conditioning, so that's part of the equation. Here's an example. Let's say when I wake up, the temp upstairs in the office is 70 and the humidity is 50, and the outside temp is 60 and the humidity is 80. And let's say that the expectation is that the high outside temp will be 80 and that the outside humidity may drop to 40. If I were to keep the windows and doors shut all day, humidity would not be a problem, but temperature definitely would be. But if I just throw open the windows and doors early in the morning when it's cool, the indoor humidity will get way too high. The trick is to regulate the windows and doors with the goal of keeping the house as cool as possible while keeping the humidity within an acceptable range. As someone else noted previously in this thread, the humidity gauges change slowly, so part of what I'm monitoring is trends of increase or decrease. So far this spring I've been able to keep the indoor humidity to an upper limit of around 60. There have been a few days where, as a result, the indoor temp got uncomfortably hot. For the same period the low end for humidity has been around 40. In the winter the range was probably around 30 to 50, and I'm focused then on keeping humidity out of the 20s. Based on last summer, I'm guessing this summer the range will move up some more with low 60s being unavoidable. So, for instance this morning the humidity outside was still fairly high, but to keep the upstairs temp down I partially opened some upstairs windows and checked the temp and humidity gauges regularly. Depending on what the gauges are doing I'll open or close as needed. In addition to the basses, I'm also concerned about the printers and the copy paper. Last summer it became a problem on days when it was hot and humid outside and I couldn't open the windows. The indoor humidity didn't get bad with the windows closed, but it sure got hot! When I go to a gig, if it's humid outside, I'll run the air conditioning in the car. And most venues have air conditioning. (But see my post above from June 4.) And there have been times when I've started the car and run the air conditioning a while before bringing the basses out of the house or venue and loading them in. And going anywhere around here involves an elevation change of significantly more than a few hundred feet <g>. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3972 Registered: 5-2002 |
Oh, and Bob, and don't think "panic" is a part of the process <g>. I'm just trying to do what I think is appropriate given my very limited knowledge (or lack thereof), my limited resources, and my given environment. If the neck moves, the neck moves. If it gets too hot in the house, then it's too hot in the house. Personally, I tend to find that every day is an amazing day here on planet earth. I may get concerned, but I'm generally not panicked. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 661 Registered: 11-2002 |
I knew you wouldn't panic, of course - it's just whatever the "present" happens to be. Though there is nothing stopping us from attempting to deal with that in a skillful way <g>. By choice and/or luck, I happen to live in a more benign climate. However, there are a few months during the summer where heat becomes almost unbearable. Without air conditioning, I play similar games with windows, although at least I only have one floor to deal with... Last fall, I replaced my old single pane windows with double pane, argon filled, low-E coating, vinyl frames, etc. Already I've noticed a huge change. My normal strategy in hot times is to leave the windows open during the night for maximum cooling, wait until the temperature starts to rise in the morning, then close them until I can't stand it anymore. The new windows, with no other changes, seem to extend that period by a good 3-4 hours - often enough until it is starting to cool down again outside. It seems I'm close enough to water that humidity doesn't fluctuate that much, other than a general winter/summer kind of thing. I did start (briefly) monitoring humidity not long ago, but that had to do with investigating the problem of static charge when grinding coffee, and I promise not to discuss that further here. Thanks for the reply, it's interesting to get a sense of how well you can control this with simple measures. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 474 Registered: 2-2005 |
"And going anywhere around here involves an elevation change of significantly more than a few hundred feet <g>." Yes Dave that driveway of yours could cause nose bleeds. LOL Keith | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 3978 Registered: 5-2002 |
Keith; yes, checking the mail every day definitely gets the blood circulating. Bob: "the problem of static charge when gringing coffee" is not one that I've considered before. | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 410 Registered: 1-2003 |
Replying to Karl... "I realise that the very mention of the name Alembic automatically gives us high expectations, especially when you consider that John Entwistle apparently managed to get his Alembics to do what you are trying to get yours to do. But I have to say that the action you're striving to maintain on that bass of yours seems murderously low - I can't imagine how refined your technique must be to keep that thing under control when you're playing." I have small hands. Even though I'm (obviously) male, I really do have small hands. I buy mid-size watches as normal gents' size watches are far too large on my wrists. Hence, I find that I cannot play basses where the action is too high - my wrists ache and my fingers ache too. That's why I've always stayed away from baseball-bat neck Fenders, not to mention the fact that I really don't like the "poppy" sound that the split P pick-up gives. My 4001 is fairly low, 1.2mm on the E and 0.9mm on the G. Regarding technique, I don't understand the fact that playing an action that is regarded as being "low" is so difficult? I just play the damn thing - I have a very light touch, in fact it's so light that you'd swear the strings don't move! I let the amplification do the work, not my fingers. I could get into a competition as to which of my basses are lower than the others, but that's not the point of this thread. The facts remain that I can set-up the DW to play with an action of 0.8mm or thereabouts (it will go lower!!!), with a virtually flat neck (i.e. next to no relief). It plays absolutely beautifully! It won't necessarily be like that in a few hours time! The time frame is too short for those sorts of swings to take place - in my mind anyway! If I'd taken it out of the house to whereever, then I accept a change of state. Interestingly (and as I have stated previously) since the weather here has been hot-ish, it's been fine. "I used to think my action was low, but it's nothing like that, and in fact, I've found that by raising it a touch I actually get a better tone - the string can resonate further without the frets interfering. I started out trying to emulate the (apparently) ridiculously low action of some of my heroes, but over the years, I've developed my own sound by moving away from straight aping of their technique and set-up, and I believe that's a positive step." I'm not aping anyone's set-up. My basses sound fine too, there is nothing I can gain from increasing the action - I've tried it. I do the "low action" thing because I have small hands - if I have to struggle to play an instrument, then I simply will not play it. I learnt to play on a Fender Jazz (starting in 1979) and it was all too large for me - I could quite happily have given in. Hence the reason I played and subsequently bought in 1981 the 4001 that I still have now. When I wanted a second bass, I looked around and settled on a JayDee. The reason I bought a JayDee was because the action was very very low on the used one that I played but the new one I had delivered was hopeless. "However, I realise that if you're in a top-flight Who tribute band, then you're in a very different position - you're being paid to emulate your hero's sound and technique, and of course, having your bass set up as his was is all part of that." I'm between bands. No-one is paying me anything, unfortunately!!! "It's a tricky call - on the one hand, yes, I'd say your expectations are high and you should try backing off a little and let the bass play the way it wants to, but on the other hand, if any bass should be able to meet those high expectations, an Alembic should (as John showed)." I don't do "back off" - one of the major reasons I bought an Alembic was the fact that the action can be set-up lower than a snake's belly! Just to prove a point - my Status Stealth has no relief in the neck, the action is 0.8mm on the E and 0.4mm on the G. The Dragon's Wing will also do this, but the instability is just too much. The DW is as low as anything I own at the moment and it's a joy to play - it has been for at least two weeks (that's a major gain over the three-hour slots I've had in the past). I wonder what will happen when the weather takes a nose-dive? | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1204 Registered: 3-2004 |
Roger, the fact that your bass is stable during the warm weather further points toward humidity changes in your house as a result of the heating system. I suppose we'll have to remain in a holding pattern until the weather changes and/or the neck moves. If you really want to know, you'll have to remain dilligent in checking humidity levels in the meantime. -bob | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 217 Registered: 5-2002 |
I need to be a little more scientific in my observations, but I think that I have noticed that it isn't so much the wild relative humidity swings that cause my necks to move, but rather humidity that swings consistently to the extreme - either below about 25% or above about 85%. Those kinds of extremes, particulary very dry air, are most often found at the beginning or end of the forced air heating season, and that's when I have found my necks to require a tweak. It seems like the humidity can move around from 25%-30% to 75%-80% with little to no effect upon the neck, but when either the minimum or maximum are exceeded it's truss rod time. Roger's scientific approach has got me motivated to learn the actual values of those minimum and maximum humidity points, so I am going to start recording my relative humidity values whenever I need to tweak a truss rod. FWIW, since my last bout of truss rod tweaking in early May, all of my Alembics have been rock stable. Roger: your low action and light touch may be second nature to you, but you really ought to give yourself credit for playing with a setup that most of us would find impossible! Bravo! | ||
| 5stringfreak
New Username: 5stringfreak Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2010 |
I own a DW, I use it strictly in my Rush tribute band Geddy's Kids. Best 4 string I've ever played, action and sound and feel are #1. This DW was listed on basscentral.com and on ebay, Cocobolo top, side red LEDs. I'm NEVER letting this one go! I call this bass the 'Demon'.   | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9654 Registered: 5-2002 |
Beautiful bass!! | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 2152 Registered: 6-2002 |
I tried one of these out a couple of years ago and I was really impressed with the sound and feel of it. Nice Nice Bass. Jazzyvee | ||
| jphilauren
Junior Username: jphilauren Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2008 |
Did Roger ever resolve his issues with his neck? Recently purchased Al's Dragon listed on forum, all I can say beautiful looking, sounding and playing bass!  | ||
| rustyg61
Intermediate Member Username: rustyg61 Post Number: 132 Registered: 2-2011 |
I just spent the last hour & a half reading this entire thread (No, I don't read that slow, just reading at work with lots of distractions!), & I feel like the cable just went out at the end of the Superbowl! The posts stopped before the issue was resolved! What happened? Did Roger finally find a compromise between playable stablity & what most of us would consider action that is impossible to achieve? I can't imagine having action that is less than 1mm!! WOW! That is impressive!! I hope that the posts stopped because Roger solved the problem & can't tear himself away from his beautiful instrument long enough to post anything! |
