| Author | Message | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 523 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'm considering going down the separates route for my amplification. I have alembic guitar and alembic basses and I'm wondering if I go down the separates route I could have one amplification rig then just get maybe a 2x12 mesa boogie speaker cab for guitar. At the moment my bass rig is Mesa boogie 300w walkabout. a 2x10 mesa bass cab and a mesa 1x15 bass cab. Both rated at 600w into 8ohms. Oh yes and an SF-2. For guitar I have my trusty Fender Twin amp. ( not a twin reverb) I don't have a problem with my existing rig sound, portability or reliability. I have decided to upgrade my bass rig to a component system and wondered if that quality would also be applicable/suitable for guitar. At the moment I don't have a series bass but in the future I'd like to get one and have the ability to process each pickup separately as I believe i could do with the F-2B but not the F-1X. My choice at the moment is for an F-1X or an F-2B, my existing SF-2 and QSC power amp. My questions are as follows: What power rating should the amp be. Do I need a higher wattage than the speakers or a speaker wattage greater than the amp for the best quality and headroom. Would it be ok for guitar as well? I had to use my bass rig for guitar once when my twin was in for service. Just with the 2x10 cab and it sounded very crisp and hi-fi and the clarity was incredible although it sounded more acoustic in tone than you would expect from magnetic. That said it wasn't a sound I'd want all the time, hence my suggestion of a 2x12 or 1x12 mesa boogie guitar cab to give me a more guitar like tone. Am i wishing on a star or is this a good idea? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Jazzyvee | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1278 Registered: 3-2004 |
In the old days, it would not be uncommon for a bi-amped bass rig to use a guitar amp for the highs. It wouldn't be applicable to your future stereo thoughts, but you might try it for now. If you did that, you could keep your twin and use it for high frequencies on your bass and full range for your guitar. Just a thought, now to address your actual questions... You could accomplish something similar to what I described above by using an F-1X and carrying your 1x15 cab for lows and a guitar cab with 12s in it for the highs. Just watch your power into the guitar cab as they are generally rated way weaker than bass gear. The Boogie 1x15 might be a bit weak on the low end and you might want to go for something 2x12 or 2x15 for more bottom end. A Schroeder 1212 with the regular magnets would have great bottom for this rig in about the same footprint as your 1x15. Power-wise, I believe the correct thinking has your power amp at 150-200% of the rated speaker power. Don't crank the power amps all the way and you should get good clean power. Again, be careful about pushing too much power at your high end, but trying to balance the volume will control this to some extent. By the way, I ran an SWR SM-900 into the same Boogie cabs you have today as my rig for a few years, so I am familiar with their performance. I found them solid and clean but not particularly loud. I think there are 1x15 cabs out there with stronger bottom. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 931 Registered: 9-2002 |
JV, I'd think along these lines: 115/210 cab bass preamp guitar preamp power amp switcher between amp outputs Play the guitar through the guitar preamp into the 10s through 1 channel Play bass through the bass pre through both channels into both cabs, or just straight through to the other channel. I'm thinking 'dedicated' preamps as it's just more simple and authentic. An F2B, Demeter bass preamp, etc., would work for guitar, but you'd miss the stacked gains, clean dirty channel, reverb, etc. you'd see in a guitar fron end. Conversely, you don't need those facilities for a bass. Plus it would save a lot of patching: Just leave the guitar plugged into the Marshall pre, for instance. Then your bass plugged into its preamp. Both are already tuned, each preamp is already preset to your tone, etc. Then all you'd need is a way to switch the inputs to the power amp, and the outputs to the cabs. The Mesa cabs should work fine, albeit the closed back, vented 210 will certainly be bassier than the typical open back guitar rig. But of course you could Q out some of that bottom. Power ratings vs. amp output: I always lean to more power than the cab's typically posted rating as clean power rarely blows out speakers. It's usually too-small amps pushed way into distortion (the WRONG kind) trying to keep up with the rest of the band. Within reason, though; you certainly wouldn't push a bridged 3000 watt Crest into an elderly 100 watt rating Fender cab. It'll take some shopping and a lot of listening, but it would be too cool if you make it work. J o e y | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 4194 Registered: 5-2002 |
If you're trying to get down to just one preamp, then because it has two tube stages, the F-2B is probably going to sound a little closer to your Twin than the F-1X. I'm not sure if this addresses Joey's point about stacked gains, and I've never tried it, but another thing you can do with the F-2B is run the two channels in series. And I agree with Bob and Joey, the power amp should be rated higher than the speakers. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1518 Registered: 7-2004 |
Joey: Any suggestions on a particular "switcher between amp outputs"? I'm thinking about a set-up with two Mesa Boogie Mark I amps, one for lead and one for rhythm and it would be cool if they could share the same speakers. Bill, tgo | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 4197 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill; I never did buy one, but when I was thinking about 'em, I liked the way these looked. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1519 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dave: I already have a Wobo ABY switch. I've used it for switching a guitar between two amps or switching between two guitars into one amp. Can you use these between 2 amps and speakers too? I guess I could just try it out, but I don't want to fry anything! Bill, tgo (Message edited by lbpesq on August 06, 2006) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 4198 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hah! When I was posting that message I was thinking "wasn't it Bill that recommended this to me?" The Harmony Central reviews indicate they have good email response. Drop 'em a note and ask. If it doesn't work in reverse, I would imagine they could custom build one for you that would. | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 641 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bill, Be sure to check with the manufacturer. The switching between amp outputs to the speakers are way more powerful and dangerous. Mike | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1280 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yeah, Bill, that does sound scary. If the second amp switches in before the first amp switches out, or if the switch shorts, then you've got high power output pumping at high power output. Not sure that's a good idea, but maybe I'm just a chicken. After all, it's only guitar power levels and 50-100 watts can't hurt anything, can it?  | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 935 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'm averse to pedals, etc., so I'm not fluent in what's out there. But if memory serves, check Whirlwind or Radial Engineering. J o e y | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1525 Registered: 7-2004 |
I just got an email back from Wobo. They say DON'T DO IT, YOU WILL FRY THE AMP! Bill, tgo | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 642 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bill, Yeah, I thought that might be the case. The output of the amps is an order of magnitude greater than an instrument or even preamp level signal. That current could fry the AB box. Also the momentary short circuit or brief sequence of "hot-open-hot" caused by switching bwtween amps would throw a pulse at the speakers similar to the bad old days of power amps without turn-on delays or self-muting circuits. Mike | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 529 Registered: 2-2005 |
If you are talking tube output stages leaving them without a load as part of the switching process could damage the output transformer. Keith | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 945 Registered: 9-2002 |
Now you see why I don't fool with pedals and switching! SO . . . I'd guess the guitar rig down Channel A and the bass rig down Channel B. Sure sounds like one less thing to go wrong!! J o e y | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 4207 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Bill!! |
