| Author | Message | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 517 Registered: 11-2003 |
Folks, need some help here. I've been experiencing trouble in getting my Dragon Wing set up. Namely, it buzzes badly betwen the 1st and 7th frets. I've done all the usual things, e.g., followed Joey's setup advice, let the instrument sit a few days, raised the action, lowered the action, made nut adjustments based on Joey's post, made sure it was in tune while adjusting, put a heavier gauge string on it, etc. Nothing has worked. Basically, there is no relief in the neck whatsoever. I mean none, with both truss rod nuts all the way out and barely snug. No matter how much I let out on the truss rods, what gauge string I use (it currently has .45-.105 DR Hi Beams on it), I can't get any forward bow to any significant degree in the neck. I really don't want to have to send it to someone for a heat bend, particularly with a heavier gauge on it. As I see it, it should set up just fine with standard gauge (which is what it came with). I normally use .40-.100 DRs, and I figured that was the problem. It isn't. Anyone have any other suggestions other than a luthier? Thanks, Alan | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 5287 Registered: 5-2002 |
My guess would be that the problem may be humidity. But if your bass has constantly been in an air conditioned low humidity environment, then that's not it. | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 154 Registered: 3-2005 |
Alan Try putting some extra tension on the strings. Tune up one or two notes evenly on all strings.with the truss rod loose and let set a few days.This worked for me on an old guitar. If it does'nt work at least it will do no harm. Chuck (Message edited by chuck on July 14, 2007) | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 518 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave, My Wing has been in its case, in my air conditioned house. Our temp is usually around 70-72 degrees F. I know humidity isn't the issue. None of my other basses, to include my Alembics exude this problem. Chuck, I actually thought about doing that. I may give it a try, and it's a great tip. Thanks! Alan | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 519 Registered: 11-2003 |
An Update .... I tuned my DW up one whole step (F sharp, B, E A) and the buzz between the 1st and 7th Frets has completely disappeared. There's about .016" of relief at the 10th fret. This would be fine except I use a standard E-A-D-G tuning. I'm beginning to suspect there is something wrong with the neck. None of my other Alembics, which are in identical climatic and environmental conditions exhibit this behavior. May have to send it back to the Mothership or get a heat bend. Interestingly enough, others have noted a similar problem on a DW (Roger S., Rick K.). In the meantime, it's in its stand tuned up. I'll let it sit a few days and see if that fixes the problem. More to follow. Alan | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1696 Registered: 3-2004 |
I said it on another thread, but I can't believe that there's anything inherently different about the DW neck as compared to any other Alembic makes. I have seen threads about Alembic setting up basses with the strings you intend to play and that it is sometimes impossible to set up for a much lighter gauge than what was specified. Note also that different brands and models of strings have different tensions at the same gauges. If you're using strings that tend to be loose for their size, then they won't put as much tension on the neck. The tension you need to tune a string is more a function of the mass than it is of the thickness. There might be some more "massive" .45 or .40 strings that could help. -bob | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 521 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob, I bought this bass used, but in absolute mint condition. It came with the stock Alembic Strings .45-.105. I had no input on the construction so that it could acommodate lighter gauge strings. It came as is. It now has DR High Beams on it, .45-.105, now tuned a step higher (F sharp, B, E, and A) to try to alleviate the almost total lack of relief in the neck. In my experience it is possible to set up a bass for a lighter gauge than intended by the manufacturer. I have Pedulla, Fender, Gibson, Musicman (both pre and post Ernie Ball), Rickenbacker, Guild, Ovation, Godin, Martin, and Peavey Basses. All, with the exception of the acoustic-electrics (Ovation, Martin, and Godin) are strung with DR Hi Beams, .40-.100. All of them came equipped with .45-.105 strings, roundwound (I use roundwounds). None of them exhibit the problems I have on my DW, and they cost thousands less. I have successfully set all of them up with lighter gauge strings, with no buzz at all between the 1st and 7th frets, and indeed up and down the fretboard with an acceptable action (to me) (5/32" at the 12th fret on the E string, and 3/32" at the 12th fret on the G string). I understand different makes have different tensions at different gauges. I'm going to pick up some different makes of strings, same gauge, and try them out to see if that makes a difference. My guess is it won't, but we'll see. I don't like standard gauge strings, so I may end up sending it to Santa Rosa for a heat bend. Alan (Message edited by ajdover on July 13, 2007) (Message edited by ajdover on July 13, 2007) | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1697 Registered: 3-2004 |
I agree with everything you say, I just recall seeing some comments on the boards here about Alembic basses having problems when going to looser/lighter strings. I would think that DR strings would play fairly tight for their size if the talk about their tite-fit process is reality. Either way, I wouldn't expect problems with a 45-100 or 45-105 set. I wonder if there might really be something with DW basses? Does the neck enter the body at an unusually high fret or something? Other than that, or that the basses were ordered with skinny necks, I can't see a reason for this seeming coincidence. Hopefully a little training with the heavier strings will help it out, but I fear that it may have to stay that way for a fair amount of time to have any lasting impact. Maybe you'll have to play a set of 50-110 strings for a few months if you actually want it to play? Good luck! | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 667 Registered: 7-2003 |
Alan, Guys, ok, I already sent Alan a mail rgdg this but I think I now have to enter my exeriences also. Also with my DW Tears for John, I spot the same problems. They are not that serious as they had been on my Spyder4 but they are present and I think I have to live with it. As I got the Dragon in March this year it was very stable. No neck movements until I changed the original Alembic strings some weeks ago to my favorites, Rotosound Swing 45-105. Same gauge. The neck moved after I had changed to the Rotosounds. We have strange weather situations here due to the climate change here in Germany now. It was really hot in April, since May until June changes between heat and strong rain. Now again, strong heat and the neck moves, of course. Additionally of course it is that sensitive as I run a very low action like John did with a 0,8mms space at the 24th fret between upper side of fret and underside of string. Means very low, to low possibly for a normal bass player, but I do "Thunderfingers". Mostly I don´t adjust the neck that much, I mainly work with slightly raising or lowering the bridge, which works very well. But I have to tune/check more often. At the moment, with rehearsal two times per week, I have to change the strings every 3-4 weeks. They are dead after this time for my needs, as I need a bright and piano like tone. Additionally I have to say that my DW has the neck dimensions of the Spyders, more broader that the normal DWs have with 4,5cms at the nut. What do you think? Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 522 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob, .50-.110 is not a gauge I'd ever use - way too heavy for me. I'd just as soon use telephone wires! ;-) My bass was bought used but in mint condition. The neck isn't Rick 4001 skinny - it's closer to a Musicman/Fender Jazz in depth, about 1.6" at the nut or so. I don't think the shape/size of the neck has anything to do with it - it's not at all different construction wise from the neck on my Europa, which has exhibited no problems neck-wise in the same environment. It's interesting that it will play fine with Alembic strings, but other gauges seemingly cause problems. Like I said, I'm going to try some different brands and see what happens. More to follow. Alan | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 413 Registered: 1-2003 |
Well I thought that I might as well chip in here, as I've got the first DW that was made. I'd like to say that I haven't played mine for almost 12 months now. Any instrument that you have to spend 30 minutes setting-up before you can play it, before every time that you play it, tends to cave your head in after a while! Mine too always became unplayable between the 1st and 7th frets. In fact, the neck could move so much, and I'm talking within the space of three hours from a perfect set-up, that the strings would be lying on the frets. It could be left alone like that and next time the action would be so high to be uncomfortable for me to play. Sorry, but for this sort of money, that's unacceptable. I even tried learning to play with a higher action (about 1.2mm instead of the 0.8mm I prefer) but the problem persisted. I monitored weather, humidity, temperature for months, every single day. Day after day. No pattern appeared, the neck has a mind of its own. It sits on its stand now looking cute. I bought a Japanese-made Fender Precision for £400 to hack around on and the neck on that never moves, the action is about 1mm which I'm happy to go with. I prefer playing that to spending my time fighting with a bass worth an inordinate amount of money that seems to have a mind of its own that should be in a completely different league. I've completely given-up on it. Life is too short. What should have been an amazing on-going experience is a nightmare and I really wish (with the benefit of hindsight of course) that I'd never ever started this whole DW thing... | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1554 Registered: 6-2002 |
I wouldn't be surprised if some of this isn't due to the mass of wood under your elbow - it may be 'pulling' the entire bass flat (as in the wheelbarrow effect, or whatever you call it in English). In other words, if you could measure the action in playing position, it might be lower than you think. | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 414 Registered: 1-2003 |
After some input from Mica a few years ago, I set my basses up now (where possible) with them over my shoulder. Even so, not doing that doesn't account for an instrument that can be perfectly set-up one hour and unplayable in three hours time. Then the action moves to being too high a few hours later. That's fundamental instability and even if I never took another spanner or allen key to it again, that process would not stop. I've always thought it was just my DW but with these reports being posted, I'm beginning to wonder if there is some fundamental flaw somewhere. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 523 Registered: 11-2003 |
I measure my action and relief in the sitting position as if I'm playing the bass. No matter what adjustments I make, it still buzzes unless I raise the action really high. Generally speaking, I'm at about 5/32 on the E string and at about 3/32 on the G string, measured at the 24th th fret. I've raised it even higher, raised the nut, you name it. I either end up with something that buzzes like mad, or is unplayable (to me anyway, and I'm not an extreme low action kind of guy). It's worth noting that even with both truss rod nuts completely loose (only snugged up against the threads to hold them in place) there is virtually no relief in the neck when measured at the 10th-11th fret, and I mean damn near nothing. Again, I've tried everything I can think of, and I'm thinking it is a neck problem, not a set up problem. This neck just doesn't want to bow forward no matter what I do. And it's three years old, so it shouldn't be a wood age thing. The tree has been dead for sometime now; I don't think that's the issue. What I'm thinking is it needs a heat bend. Nothing else I've tried works. Alan | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2521 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sounds like a heat bend is needed. Without some natural forward bow in the neck, it will never set up properly. Alan, I assume this has an ebony fretboard. My electric luthier, Gary Brawer, told me that this type of problem is not uncommon with an ebony fretboard, given the strength of ebony. Bill, tgo | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 524 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bill, Yes, an ebony board, like all my Alembics. I'm not thrilled about having to do a heat bend, but if I want to play this instrument it looks like that's what I'm going to have to do. I'm going to see if I can get it done locally. If not, out to Santa Rosa it goes. It won't be cheap, but it's either that or it ends up like Roger's - sitting on a stand. And I don't want to do that, of course. Alan | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2524 Registered: 7-2004 |
Alan: I discussed heat bends with James from Alembic at a July 4th party where my band played. It sounds very unobtrusive as he described it. He clamps the instrument so there is some pressure on the neck to bow. Then he uses a hairdryer type device (or maybe even a hairdryer, it was a party after all where we had this discussion - lol), and stands there blowing hot air back and forth for 15 or 20 minutes, as I recall, then checks it out. Doesn't sound too scary to me. Bill, tgo | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 525 Registered: 11-2003 |
Well, it's not so much the "scary" part as it is I have to send it out - wish I lived closer. I'll try to find someone local, but failing that I don't have much of a choice. It's a great instrument, beautiful, well built, and I want to play it. As it is now it is unplayable for me, regardless of string gauge and set up. Alan | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 158 Registered: 3-2005 |
Alan A few minutes ago I decided to measure the core diameter of several sets of used strings. I measured the E string only.The results may be the awnser to your problem. Using a good quality micrometer I found three brands with a core diameter of .025. Checking a set of DR's I found the core dia.to be .022, thats a reduction of 12% in tension. Thats a lot. The outside diameter on all E strings was .105. Just a thought. Chuck (Message edited by chuck on July 14, 2007) (Message edited by chuck on July 14, 2007) | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 526 Registered: 11-2003 |
Chuck, Do you have a measurement for the core of an Alembic .45-.105 set? That would give us some reference as this is what it came with. Thanks, Alan | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2005 |
Alan, I do not have any alembic strings. If you have an old set bring it with you next saturday and I'll bring the micrometer. Chuck (Message edited by chuck on July 14, 2007) | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 527 Registered: 11-2003 |
Chuck, My name is Alan. Not trying to be a pain, but that's my name, for better or worse! ;-) Alan | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 160 Registered: 3-2005 |
Sorry Alan,my mistake,this old brain do'nt work right all the time. Chuck | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1699 Registered: 3-2004 |
Alan, If Bill's recollection on the procedure is correct, you may be able to tune up another step or two to create some forward bend and apply the hair dryer yourself. I would seriously give Alembic a call and see if you can have a virtual pow-wow with James to get the straight scoop. Good luck, and maybe this is a solution for all DW owners? -bob | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 5301 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm wondering what effect the hairdryer has on the finish. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 5302 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here is a thread that might be helpful; includes two differing opinions from highly regarded members. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1468 Registered: 2-2006 |
I've a thought on this. Does the DW stay in the case most of the time or does it come out of the case on a daily basis? The reason I ask is that I usually keep my Alembics in the cases unless I am playing them. All my other basses hang on the wall in my music room. I hadn’t played the S-2 in about 3 weeks (forgive me Lord) and I noticed yesterday when I got it out that the neck was darn near straight no relief at all. Needless to say I had plenty of fret buzz going on. Well I didn’t do any adjustments to the truss rods but I did leave it out on a stand over night and I noticed today that the neck had a desirable amount of relief and all fret buzz was gone. So I assume that the downward pressure on the neck from the padding in the case had something to do with this. I’ve never had this happen on any of my axes before but I’ve also never left one in a case this long before either. Something to ponder, Olie | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1702 Registered: 3-2004 |
Mine are usually standing up in the cases, but I see your point. If nothing supports the headstock or neck near the nut, there could be some bend pressure there. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1211 Registered: 9-2002 |
Without the bass here, take this that I'm thinking out loud, OK? Typically, bass buzzes solely in the deep end of the neck means the neck is TOO straight, while buzzing only up near the body end of the neck usually means too much relief. Overlay this that straightening the neck lowers the strings, and adding relief raises the strings: Imagine as you tighten the truss rod, the head/nut 'sinks' relative to the body, and rises as you let more relief back in. Plus the closer you get to where the bass starts buzzing badly, it only takes a little too much to cross that line. I shoot for dead straight and then let enough relief back in to where I can just feel a little room to breathe under my hands, so we are probably looking for about the same feel, not 'behind the frets'. I'll settle for a only a little random buzz here and there occasionally as long as it doesn't go through to the amp, and over a few weeks I'll tune that out. And certainly, out of my five basses, no two are alike, and it's just the way life is that some will just adjust lower than others without complaint. Two things stand out to me: 1) You bought it used and it still had the ALEMBIC strings. As they're not commonly available around the country, IF they were the strings it came with and it's in mint shape the bass MUST have sat in the case most of the time and probably flat, tuning-wise. 2) Tuning UP cured it: More tension gave more relief and it subsided . . . IF it were me, I'd try one more thing I learned from the Dan Erlwewine book: Unstring it. Let the truss rods completely loose. Clamp the neck/fingerboard to a straight board (be sure and pad the board and clamps, a clean 2x4 cut to the length of the fingerboard works fine). Once you're satisfied all 24 frets are touching the board (you can check this with the short side of a framing square, and use a 6" or shorter metal rule to check two or three frets at a time to eliminate any high frets), tighten both nuts to snug and release the clamps. You've now got a straight fingerboard 'unloaded' and you've probably bought more 'purchase' for your truss rod nuts. Truss rod nuts are for fine tuning, you did the 'heavy lifting' with the board and clamps. Now re-string let her sit overnight or a few days and start over. Of course if that STILL won't do it, you obviously know where to go. It's problematic in that truss rods have the least effect on the very end of the fingerboard towards the head, generally. But maybe this treatment will help you skip surgery! Glad you're home! J o e y | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2532 Registered: 7-2004 |
Joey: I don't get it. It sounds like what you are saying is that if your neck is straight - no relief - with the truss rods completely loose, you should clamp a 2 x 4 to the straight neck, then tighten the truss rods to snug and take the 2 x 4 off. If I'm getting this right I don't see how this can possibly have any effect whatsoever on the lack of neck relief. What am I missing? Bill, tgo | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1212 Registered: 9-2002 |
Right, Bill, he gets no forward bow with the truss rods loose. But with the height-over-the-last-fret he's quoting (very good measurements AJD) I know the bridge is NOT jacked up. So it obviously HAS some relief in the middle which he's quoting and sound right for a fairly low action, otherwise it'd buzz the length of the fingerboard. So what I see is the frets near the nut are falling away instead of maintaining the even curve we hope to see. It's doing this with virtually free-spinning truss rod nuts. BUT . . . it stops IF he tunes UP a whole step. That increased tension from the strings pulls the nut end of the neck in line. So what I'm aiming for is to buy a different starting point for the truss rod nuts (by snugging them up against a dead straight fingerboard) and getting that neck dead straight to start with 'unloaded', hopefully allowing the truss rods to replace the increased pull instead of using strings he doesn't ordinarily use tuned up a whole step. Hopefully the truss rods will hold the nut end in line once you remove the board. Maybe they won't and a heat bend is the only remedy. The idea is to take up the slack and give the truss rods a different purchase. If the neck were perfect with a loose truss rod, you'd REALLY be at the mercy of tmep and humidity, etc. Once it's re-strung it should acquire some amount of relief, and hopefully the setup should proceed normally with the trouble spot behaving itself. I would not be surprised if the setup would run a bit higher nut and a bit lower bridge. Anyway, this was my thinking. It can't hurt anything and might save a trip to the heater. I could be utterly full of it, but is just seems like he's got enough truss rod for the rest of the fingerboard, just not quite enough for the first six frets. Nobody uses a truss rod that runs the length of the fingerboard. Reversed, this is why sometimes other guitars have a problem with the end of the fingerboard at the body. Plus, I'm really coming to think new guitars need to REALLY be watched for the first year or two till it all settles down. I can't help but think this bass was played very little and never adjusted by the original owner (I bet it really is the strings it left Santa Rosa with). Buying an ALEMBIC for some is just not what they expected, and they go back to their Fenders as they never quite 'get it'. I bet this is one of them. Some wood is like concrete and NEVER moves. Most is just going to breathe, move, until it finally dries through and through EVEN IF the builder is careful to use cured, aged, wood like ALEMBIC. It's just the mystery of wood. And in a sometimes aggravating way, it's beauty. J o e y | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1705 Registered: 3-2004 |
That's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't use a 2x4 for that, Joey. The neck is probably stronger and will bend the 2x4 rather than the reverse. Take a page from house framing and make a little sandwich of 2x4 and plywood to use. It will be much more directionally stable than a 2x4 alone. | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 415 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm going to throw in my opinion here. I've been conversing with Alan privately about his DW problems, I didn't want the whole thing to appear to be some sort of DW witch hunt. Anyway, after almost of 12 months of ignoring my own DW, I decided to give it another try. I spent *** all day *** - yes, that's ALL DAY - yesterday messing around with truss rods etc etc. I'm not going to go into the be-all and end-all of it, it was very labourious and boring and I'm leaving it a few days to see how it's settled down. One thing I remembered during the whole process was that I had the same problems Alan's been having, and it all came from the fact that I took off the Alembic strings it was shipped with (more about that shortly) and put on the brand I was playing at the time. Then it all went pear-shaped. THAT was when the neck problems started. In the end (I'm going back about 3 and a half years here), I took the strings off it, slackened off the truss rod nuts until they were free spinning, and then put it back on its stand where it hung by the headstock. I left it like that for about a week, then re-strung it, re-tensioned the truss rods and got enough to work with so that I could stop the neck being convex and therefore the whole bass being unplayable. The annoying thing was that I sent Mica a brand new set of the strings I was playing at the time, I asked for the bass to be set-up using them and Mica agreed to this, and they NEVER FITTED THEM! Mica sent them back about a month after I took delivery of the bass. Some of you folks out there might like Alembic strings but personally, I have the view that compared to the quality of the instruments Alembic produces, I would rather fit the bass with four lengths of wool. I understand where Joey is coming from, I just went about it a different way, letting the weight of the body pull the neck straight. I also bought my DW a new stand at the point I'd gone through the neck-straightening exercise, one where it sits on the stand rather than hangs from it and I noticed a bit difference in its playability. I suspect that hanging it by the headstock and the fact that the body is not symmetrical pulls the neck out of shape. Just a guess... Anyway, I spent my hours yesterday setting the damn thing up and then played it for two hours, something I've never been able to do without the neck moving as I play, and it was near perfect. A joy to play and to behold. Perhaps it's the threat of being sawn up into small pieces that's been hanging over it - time will tell as the days draw on, but for now, it's gaining a little more favour with me! About time too... As the original DW owner, if any of the DW owners out there need any help and advice off the forum, please e-mail me directly. If I can help, I will do my best. Rog | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 668 Registered: 7-2003 |
Rog, Guys, as I already mentioned in my post before also my problems with the neck started as I put off the Alembic strings and put on my favorite Rotosound Swing, SAME gauge as the Alembics were. What is happening here? Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 531 Registered: 11-2003 |
Gents, OK, I took the strings off and used a straightedge (bought from Stew-Mac, a metal one) to check the level of the frets. Both truss rods were all the way out. I noticed a slight backbow, and it appeared that the center of the bow (where the the center of the rocking motion of the straightedge started) was at 12th fret (fret closest to the end of the fingerboard). However, it wasn't very significant, certainly no more than the .016" relief I normally go for. I didn't measure it (I probably should have and may do so yet), but it appears to me even if I do as Joey astutely suggests, I still won't get enough relief. Again, I could be wrong, but that's what I suspect. I also checked the fretboard to make sure it was flat and level (again, with a Stew Mac tool just for this purpose) and it was completely flat from what I could tell. Right now it is strung up with the .45-.105 DRs, and I'm going to take it to Shomaker Music in Burlington, NC (we're having the NC Alembic gathering there) on Saturday. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm going to have them look at it as several club members have stated that they have a pretty good reputation of being able to figure such problems out. All I know is it buzzes like mad between the 1st and 7th fret, regardless of string gauge, adjustments, etc. I must say, however, that I appreciate every bit of advice and support from everyone, public and private. Special thanks goes out to Joey, Bill tgo, Oliver and Roger for assistance above and beyond the call of duty. I owe each of you a beverage of your choice should our paths ever cross in person. Alan | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1214 Registered: 9-2002 |
Major, if we ever meet, your money's no good with me, I'm buying! You're certainly on top of the case with the StewMac straightedges, wish it would have worked. You're obviously getting to a point where I don't need to tell you anything! Best of luck to you. Roger, glad to see your Dragon has taken wing, finally, hope it continues to behave. I never thought of revving my SkilSaw in the room with an uncooperative bass, I think you're really on to something here. If I took one of those rechargeable ones into Geetar Center and revved it, wouldn't it be a great prank if they all jumped off the wall at the same time, like flushed birds? I am NO FAN of hanging basses on the wall or a hanger stand. I know lots of people do it with no ill effects, but I much prefer letting them put their weight on their butts. J o e y | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 248 Registered: 5-2002 |
Maybe this will help: a couple of years ago I had a problem with a Modulus Quantum 5 - one of the older ones without a truss rod. The bass developed a significant backbow and was buzzing badly at and below the 7th fret. (Don't believe the hype - graphite necks can move, and when they do the problems are much harder to correct!) Anyway, I called Modulus about the problem assuming that I would need a new neck. The tech with whom I spoke asked me if I was using DR roundwounds, and when I told him that I was he suggested that I replace them with another brand of strings (he suggested GHS) because DR strings have a very low tension, as compared to other roundwounds of a similar gauge. Suspicious bastard that I am I didn't believe the guy, so I called DR and asked them if their roundwounds did indeed have less tension than other brands. They agreed that was true. So, I changed string brands to GHS, and within two weeks the neck had moved such that the backbow was gone, replaced by just a touch of relief (as I like it). By the way, I use DR roundwounds on all of my Alembics with no problems whatsoever, but perhaps by using a string brand with a higher tension you can pull the neck into appropriate relief. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 532 Registered: 11-2003 |
Steve, Interesting. I'll pick up a set of Rotos and other strings just to see if it makes a difference. Thanks for the info! Alan | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 5322 Registered: 5-2002 |
Just to reinforce, for everyone reading this thread, what Steve and others above have stated, string gauge and string tension are not the same thing. Two different types or brands of strings of the same gauge can have different tensions. Thus, if you are playing a very low action, changing to a different type or brand of string, even of the same gauge, can significantly change the action if the strings don't have the same tension. | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2005 |
The first rule of troubleshooting is what has changed. Chuck | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 533 Registered: 11-2003 |
OK, Couldn't find Rotos, but I did pick up a set of Ken Smith Rock Masters, .45-.105, and some Dean Markley Blue Steels, .45-.100. Here's what I did. 1 - Took the DR Hi Beams, .45-.105 off of the DW. Before I did that, I took measurements of the relief and action. The bass was tuned to E-A-D-G, measured using a Peterson Strobo Flip Digital Tuner. Truss Rod nuts were all the way out and barely snug just to keep them from moving around freely. Relief was .005 at the 10th fret, using feeler gauges. Action was 3/32" at the 24th fret on the E string, about the same on teh G string measured at the same position. 2 - Put on the Ken Smith Strings (Stainless Steel like the DRs, roundwound, same gauge). 3 - Tuned the bass to E-A-D-G. 4 - Took relief and action measurements as above. Relief was the same .005"; action was 3/32" at 24th fret on the E string, and action was somewhere between 1/8" and 5/32" on the G-string. Still buzzed between the 1st and 7th frets, and on the E string up to about the 10th-11th frets. It's worth noting that all string changes, adjustments, measurements were taken in the same climatic environment, namely my bass room, where the temperature is a constant 73 degrees Fahrenheit, and the humdity is 55%. I don't think that's the problem as none of my other instruments, as I've stated before (including my other Alembics with similar neck wood configurations) exhibit this problem. I'll watch it over the next few days to see what happens. I'm also taking it to the NC Alembic Gathering on Saturday - maybe someone will have an idea of what else I can do short of a heat bend. Alan (Message edited by ajdover on July 19, 2007) | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1557 Registered: 6-2002 |
I wonder what happens if you slap on the Alembic strings again ... Perhaps they are higher tension than any of the other brands you're trying? | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1254 Registered: 12-2002 |
Could it Be the "Dragon Wing" Design is Cursed??? | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 249 Registered: 5-2002 |
AJ: When I pulled the neck on my Modulus into relief by swapping out the DR's it took at least a week before I noticed a difference, and probably 2 weeks before I pronounced the problem fixed. Give it time... | ||
| bigbadbill
Advanced Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 370 Registered: 10-2003 |
As a slight aside from all this (which I find fascinating BTW), did John Entwistle really have his action at 0.8mm? I have the book of his collection and on most of the pictures his action looks higher than mine, although obviously I'd heard that his was ridiculously low. My action is generally about 1/16th at the twelfth, which is pretty low, although I know for a fact Roger's is way lower than that. Back to the issue at hand, as I once told Roger, I once had a custom built 6 string which would not settle. I had it over 3 years, and I could never get it to settle for more than a few days. What made it unbearable was that every time I took it out to a gig it became completely unplayable; despite adjustments at the venue, by half way through the set at the very best I always ended up either with the strings rattling away dreadfully or an unplayable action. I sold it in the end. I'd love to know whether its current owner experiences the same problems. What I find bizarre in this instance is that so many of the Dragon Wings seem to be exhibiting the same problem. I wouldn't have thought they'd be any different to other Alembic as I'm sure the neck is constructed in the same way. Obviously you'll always get the odd instrument that will move more, but this really does seem unusual. Best of luck to everyone concerned, and Roger, I really hope you're getting to the bottom of yours. | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 670 Registered: 7-2003 |
BBB, the action John preffered was indeed very low. I had the chance to play some of his basses and the action is really low. But, as you refer to the book, I think of course that he couldn´t get such a low action on all of his basses, like the early Fenders, the Gibsons, the one offs like the Lightning Bolt, the Flame Bass etc. and also as well as on the Warwicks. All the Warwick Buzzards I have seen or played including the one I owned once were not able to have a low action on due to the high saddles. If he had a low action on his Warwick Buzzards he would have needed to have the saddles lowered, means cut off. On the other hand if you take a close look at Johns technique and try to do it, you will notice that his technique is best possible with a low action, means really low. The higher the action the harder this gets to play, means especially the sensible touched typewriting as well as his speed triplets. You can do this with a higher action, but it gets really hard to do and you loose much of the crispy like highs of the piano sound. Oliver (Spyderman) www.whoareyouband.de | ||
| bigbadbill
Advanced Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 372 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks Oliver. The pictures I was referring to were indeed mainly the Warwicks. I prefer my action very low (although maybe not as low as John's), and probably for similar reasons to John, although I don't really use the "typewriter" technique. I do tend to play with a pick in a very guitaristic sort of way though, and find that I just can't get the fluidity or expression using even a medium action. I recently bought a new bass (another Sei bass)from the Bass Gallery in London which has the action set very low, and whilst I was trying it out "Pinball Wizard" came on the radio. I started playing along and the bass was perfect for "John-isms". I love it when all you have to do is lightly touch the bass and it sings out. I really hate having to dig in to get a note out of an instrument. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 539 Registered: 11-2003 |
OK, I've had the Ken Smith strings on two plus weeks now. The DW has been sitting flat in its case in my home. I've made no adjustments since my last post (e.g., it remains with both truss rods all the way out and just snugged so they don't rattle, bridge is adjusted the same, nut is the same, it is tuned to standard concert pitch, etc.). What I have at this point is this: Relief at 10th fret - as best I can tell, it is somewhere between .009 and .008, a slight improvement, but nowhere near where it needs to be as best as I can determine. Action at 24th Fret on E string; approximately 3/32" Action at 24th fret on G string: approximately 7/64th" The E, A, and D strings buzz like crazy from the 1st to 8th frets or so, with the E string buzzing all the way up to about the 12th fret. The G string, oddly enough doesn't buzz, but I suspect that is because the action is higher on that side of the neck. Folks, I'm at a loss as to what to do at this point. Basically, as I see it, I have three options: 1- Keep trying different brands of strings to see which ones will hopefully force the neck into relief. This would most likely involve a heavier gauge which as I've stated I don't like or prefer. 2 - Send it back to Alembic or find a local luthier qualified to do a heat bend on it. Not something I really want to do, especially sending it all the way back to Alembic as I don't know when I'd get it back given their other commitments. 3 - Sell it. I won't keep an instrument that doesn't play the way I like it. If anyone has any last ditch ideas, I'm all ears. I can't help thinking that perhaps there is a design problem? If it were only my bass I could see it, but mine, Roger's, Oliver's, and Rick K's all have experienced set up problems to more or less the same degree. I know it isn't a construction problem since like all Alembics, it is yet another superlative example of craftsmanship. Anyway, if anyone has any ideas, let me know. Alan | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 179 Registered: 3-2005 |
Alan. Most strings that I have purchased in the past have the string tension printed on the package. Also leaving the trusrod nuts snug will prevent the neck from moving in the direction you want it to. The outside diameter of the string does not determine string tension,the core diameter does. I know this problem must be giving you fits and you are probably fed up with all the suggestions,my appoliges for offering one more. So here goes. Select the strings based on the highest tension you can find.Most manufactures list this information on the net.Then select the brand and type that best serves your needs.String up your base and tune to pitch with the trussrod nut left backed off at least one turn and wait 24 hours or so,The loose trussrod should allow the neck to bow foward giving more relief,if this works retune and then snug the nuts up while the neck is still under string tension. Good luck | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 540 Registered: 11-2003 |
Chuck, Got it on the core diameter, and your advice is most sage and appreciated. I'll loosen the truss rod nuts and see what happens, then if it gives me relief re-tighten as you recommend. It's worth a shot. At this point, I'd $iss on a sparkplug if I thought it would help! Thanks, Alan | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1586 Registered: 6-2002 |
"Relief at 10th fret - as best I can tell, it is somewhere between .009 and .008" - are you serious? That's the thickness of a thin E string for an electric guitar, in a light to very light gauge!?! | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 541 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes, those are the measurements using feeler gauges. This is why I'm so frustrated - nothing I'm doing is giving me relief in the neck to any significant degree. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 4733 Registered: 6-2000 |
There's nothing inherently different on the Dragon Wing bass as far as neck or body construction goes. Alan, I'll email you instructions for sending your DW into us for servicing. You won't be without it for long, and we can surely remedy the situation if given the opportunity. | ||
| rogertvr
Senior Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 416 Registered: 1-2003 |
"There's nothing inherently different on the Dragon Wing bass as far as neck or body construction goes." You're not going to thank me for this, Mica - why are the necks on them so unstable then? If it wasn't for the fact that mine has got the stunningly gorgeous Chinese dragon (words really do not portray how the inlay looks - you absolutely have to see it for real) inlaid in the fretboard, I could quite happily have chopped the instrument up for fire-wood on several occasions...living with it (or trying to) is a nightmare (use of choice language removed in the interests of this post not being banned by the moderators). I'm sorry, but this business about "the wood realising it's not a tree anymore" is a load of old rubbish. My DW is now four years old and it's like a petulant child. One day, if I lose my temper with it, I am going to have a VERY expensive bonfire! I find it seriously difficult to believe that, given a choice between an almighty expensive Alembic and a Japanese-made Fender Precision, I will play the Precision 90% of the time. At least it bloody well plays and doesn't need setting-up every single time I want to play it! Reading the posts on this Club about neck instability I have to wonder what's going on. At least it's not just me and my DW that's suffering... (Message edited by rogertvr on August 19, 2007) | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 4740 Registered: 6-2000 |
Roger, I will restate: There's nothing inherently different on the Dragon Wing bass as far as neck or body construction goes. When we glue up a neck blank, it matters not if it's for a DW bass or a Series II, the material selection and manufacturing process are the same. I think the report of your DW bass neck is different from what Alan is experiencing. Your bass reacts to something and with the very low action the strings collide with the tops of the frets. On Alan's bass, the truss rod adjustment has been exhausted. Servicing Alan's bass will require about a week's work unless our inspection reveals something more seriously wrong. I have offered to service your bass on more than one occasion. If your frustration level gets to the point where you are tempted to more than figuratively destroy it, please give us the opportunity to repair it or at least find an appropriate adoptive home for the beast. Note: we have never banned an individual for posting on this forum. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 939 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have to say most of this discussion thread is way above my head when it comes to truss rod tweaking and stuff like that. I may be barking up the wrong tree here but I was thinking that maybe if you had the neck x-rayed you may be able to see if there is an internal problem with the truss rods or their anchor points? Just a thought. I used to work in non-destructive testing about 20 yrs and used to do radiography as part of my job and we all know how much detail you can get in a good medical x-ray photograph. The times I have been through the airports with my guitars and watched them as they go through the x-ray machine, even with those you can see an incredible amount of detail. It may be worth checking x-ray out as there is only so much you can see and interpret from looking at the neck externally. You can probably find your equivalent of 'Non-Destructive testing engineers" in the yellow pages or trade papers and get it done. Jazzyvee (Message edited by jazzyvee on August 19, 2007) | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 191 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well put Mica, I like a very low action as well but I also realize that I must contend with the possibility of frequent readjustment of the neck due to temp.and humidity changes.If one wants a slim neck and low action one must accept the fact that the neck will not be as stable as a thicker neck and a higher action. It just comes with the territory.There are eceptions of course such as my Hagstrom H2B with the slimest neck I have ever seen and has not required adjustment since 1969. I have not seen Rogers bass so I don't now the details of the problem,but I have seen others with the same problems as Rogers and it was always due to an unrealisticly low action or climate changes.Ihope this works out for you Roger that is one beautiful bass. Chuck | ||
| bigbadbill
Advanced Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 378 Registered: 10-2003 |
Rog, please don't destroy your DW!!!!! At least sell it and let someone else deal with it (I'm surprised you haven't already to be honest)!!!! Even the THOUGHT of smashing that up hurts!!!! | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 251 Registered: 5-2002 |
Roger and Alan: Why don't you ship you DW's back to Alembic and let them fix whatever ails them? They take tremendous pride in their instruments and I just know that it must be making them crazy to read about these problems without having the opportunity to fix them! Cliche but true: they stand behind what they sell. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1738 Registered: 3-2004 |
Steve, they probably haven't done it for the same reason I haven't shipped my bass back to get the minor errors in the build repaired. The shipping cost is in excess of $100 when the insurance is factored in, there's the risk of damage or loss, and the bass is gone for several weeks. Unless you live around the corner from the factory, I think you tend to try to exhaust all possibilities before returning the instrument. That said, if my bass were virtually unplayable as a result of neck problems, I would eat the cost and take the risk to send it back. For a minor dent, a missing LED control pot, and an electronics tweak, the risk is more questionable. Alan will probably send his back one of these days, but the risks and costs for Roger must be magnified when shipping from the UK. I'll probably get around to shipping mine as well when the busy gig season is over. I keep hoping we'll plan another trip out there so I can hand carry it, though. -Bob | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 544 Registered: 11-2003 |
Steve/Bob, I've corresponded with Mica privately on this matter and will be shipping the DW back to Alembic shortly. As she's noted it is only fair to allow them a chance to look at it and figure out what the bass needs in order to play the way the customer wants it to. This is what I intend to do, and I'll post here when I get it back on how it is at that point. Hopefully that will help any other DW owners who've experienced some issues with their instruments as well. More to follow, Alan | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1526 Registered: 2-2006 |
If its a brand new instrument with build errors or flaws I wouldn't think one would have to foot the shipping costs. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 4750 Registered: 6-2000 |
The end user has to foot the shipping for the evaluation. Our warranty covers return shipping costs to the customer if there is a defect. I reimburse shipping costs the customer paid when it's appropriate, and it's on a case by case basis, generally after we've seen the instrument first-hand. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1739 Registered: 3-2004 |
It has been about four years that I have been talking to Alembic, playing their instruments, and reading/participating on these boards. I would guess I hear about maybe a half dozen problems per year with instruments before or after shipment. You also occasionally see a horror story about some damage to an older instrument or the need for an upgrade. I don't recall a single occurrence of a customer giving Alembic a chance to resolve an issue and not coming out happy. In most cases, Alembic not only solves the problem, but goes beyond that to offer something special to those who have had problems. There's just no better choice than letting them do their thing. I think I may have convinced myself... -Bob | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 619 Registered: 3-2004 |
I ordered my first custom in 86. Bought my first in 83, and have been ordering-buying used ever since. They have always gone the extra distance for me as well as standing up to the box chains because of principle and committment to quality. Also they have consistantly improved on design and execution as the years go by. Send it back and let them do they thang. We will all wait with you in anticipation of your satisfaction. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 575 Registered: 11-2003 |
Any update on my DW? Thanks, Alan | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1648 Registered: 6-2002 |
Pierre-Yves has posted some interesting suggestions about getting the neck where you want it. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 579 Registered: 11-2003 |
Folks, I got my DW back today from the Mothership. Suffice to say, it is like night and day. Mica informs me that a heat bend was performed, and it did the trick. No buzz anymore - I actually lowered the action. She plays like a dream now. And the good folks in Santa Rosa were right, as usual - a heat bend is not as scary as it sounds. My bass came back in exactly the same condition it was in when I sent it. Of course, we're talking Alembic here .... ;-) Relief is .012" at the 10th/11th frets, action is 5/64" at the 24th fret on the E string, a bit lower on the G string side. It works for me. Many thanks to the elves in Santa Rosa. She plays and sounds great. Can't wait to take her out on an open mike only to hear, "geez, what kind of bass is that?" ;-) Alan | ||
| the_8_string_king
Senior Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 905 Registered: 9-2005 |
That's great, Major. Personally, the Dragon Wing isn't my cup of tea... and yet, like all Alembics, one has to appreciate it's beauty -and the Dragonwing does have an impressive sculptural beauty that is unique among instruments -even Alembics- and neat. But, of course, you want it to play well! So I'm happy for you that the procedure turned out well, as we all knew it would! Congrats, play it in good health! | ||
| borisspyder
Junior Username: borisspyder Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just found this thread...it is the great Alembic conundrum, I guess most are fine, a few are terrible! I won't belabor this but mine was a disaster..the Entwistle 76' Series One I played was perfect with insanely low action even after sitting in a display case at the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame for a decade. Go figure. |
