| Author | Message | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 427 Registered: 10-2003 |
As many around here will know, I have chronic back problems that have recently worsened again and my Triple O is exacerbating them, so much so that at the moment it's just sat in its case. Although the overall weight is an issue, I do feel that there seems to be a lot of weight in the neck area (although it balances fine), probably due to how far out the neck sits, which creates a lot of downforce through my left shoulder, in turn irritating the bad lumbar disc on my lhs. I was talking to Martin Petersen at the Gallery a while back and he suggested something that someone had done to a P-Bass he had in. Where the strap button entered the top horn, they'd cut a piece of tubing (in this case brass, but it could be pretty much anything solid enough) maybe a couple of inches long to extend the strap button. Basically the strap button was attached through this "extension tube" with a much longer screw which then went into the body. It basically meant that the guitar was brought more to the right, bringing first position in more towards the body, and I assume lessened the pressure on the left shoulder whilst improving the balance (although in this case balance per se is not an issue). I was wondering about the feasibility of something similar as a last ditch attempt to make my Triple O useable. Any thoughts would be appreciated, especially from Mica & The Elves. Bear in mind my Triple O is hollow; I don't know if that will make it unworkeable. | ||
| bassman68
Junior Username: bassman68 Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2007 |
Hi Bill, Sorry to hear of your back problems, It gets to us all in the end.:-( I have seen similar button extensions before for thunderbirds & similar neck heavy basses, A friend of mine made his own, very similar to the one you described & has now given his vintage thunderbird a new lease of life. It's odd how a couple of extra inches affects the centre of balance (for the better)((ooh er missus!)). Give it a try, it would be a shame to lose your bass for the sake of the visual norm. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Advanced Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 316 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'd be worried about the pressure that the leverage of the extra length would exert on the wood - it seems it would be likely to tear the screw out of the hole, and drilling deep enough to offset that would scare me. Did you ever try the Slider Strap harness strap as was discussed in your previous back thread a year or 2 ago? If so, did it help? Peter | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 428 Registered: 10-2003 |
Never managed to get hold of an actual Slider Peter, but I rigged up something not dissimilar and for various reasons unfortunately felt it wasn't really working for me. The pressure exerted on the wood was one of the things that worried me, especially since the bass is hollow. | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 1811 Registered: 10-2002 |
Have a look down this link Shaun. I posted a picture of a button extension Freekbass uses. I would be too scared the wood would rip with that! Graeme | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6683 Registered: 5-2002 |
It would seem to me that, no matter where the strap button is, all of the weight of the instrument is still on the left shoulder. Why did the Slider type strap not work? | ||
| dfung60
Advanced Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 339 Registered: 5-2002 |
The issue here is common with Alembics and many through-body instruments. The problem comes from too much of a good thing. When you have through-body construction, one of the great things is that you can get rid of a lot of the wood at the neck joint since you don't require a lot of material where the neck and body pieces join (e.g. the neck pocket on a bolt-on or the dovetail area of a set-neck). Now that you can slim that area down, you can create a lot of access to the high frets and the cutaways can reach a lot deeper in than on a more conventional instrument. But all this shifting can really mess up the balance. If you look at a P-bass, the strap button position is over the 13th fret or so; for a large-body Series bass, it's over the 18th fret and for a small body (like Stanley Clarke's instruments) is probably over the 20th fret. That's a big shift. It's not an accident that the P-Bass horn ends up over there - it's pretty much extended out to the zone where the instrument will balance. The balance of a Series bass won't be like a P-bass, but it's inherently less balanced, which is the cause of the neck dive that people complain about. There's a temptation with any through-body design to shift things around like this, although you often see a long upper horn to compensate (check out a Tobias, Rickenbacker, or old Veillette-Citron). I think this comes mostly from the fact that a through-body can give much better access to the high frets, but will look really odd with a super deep cutaway on one side and a regular one on top of the neck. There are actually a number of very interesting workarounds that have come up. One of the best is the "pivot plate/boomerang" system on the Steinberger L and XL basses. These are the original "boat-oar" models that are truly the boiled-down essence of a through-body instrument (these original instruments are a single-piece composite construction). There's a gigantic bolt near the center of mass of the instrument that attaches a boomerang shaped plate that can rotate somewhat freely. The strap ends both attach to the ends of the boomerang. Since the pivot is at the center of gravity, the instrument's natural tendency is to pretty much stay where you leave it - it's very neutral. Since the strap ends are both ending up in front of you, the weight distributes more evenly as well. The balance point is quite a ways back in the body because of the mass of the composite material as well as the lack of a headstock and tuners at the end of the neck. Ned Steinberger must be really interested in solving this problem because he has used straphook extensions on other instruments as well to improve feel. The NS/Bolin bass has a singlecut body design that wouldn't normally balance very well, but has a rotating straphook that extends out to the P-bass position. (They're no longer in production, but you can see pix on eBay under "bolin ns".) I have one of these basses, and it's a pretty good idea that doesn't really work very well (they needed to make a locking straphook instead of one that just flips out like this). Ned must have realized this because the Steinberger Synapse, a modern wood instrument that's vaguely reminiscent of his original stuff uses a fixed metal strap hook extender. You can see a little of it here - http://www.steinberger.com/XS15FPACST.html If you're willing to perform surgery on your Alembic, you can probably try out Ned's NSDesign Boomerang Strap System (http://www.nedsteinberger.com/instruments/systems.php#boom) which is a sort of recreation of the XL design that was created for people who wanted to play the NS Cello like an electric bass. It's a pretty sophisticated design with a friction clutch where the big screw was before. You can adjust the arms of the boomerang to be comfortable for your position and set the tension of the clutch so the instrument stays where you want it to. NS Design makes a modified version for non-NS Design instruments. You need to mount the big clutch at the balance point of the instrument, and I have no idea whether that is even on the body for some of the more radical Alembics. I haven't tried this out myself, but know the guy that sells the modified version for non-NSDesign instruments (it's from NSDesign, but they don't provide support for mounting on other instruments). Finally, on a slightly unrelated note, there's work on the other end of the strap too. The problem of all the weight ending up on one shoulder is somewhat inherent in the traditional design. There was an interesting strap that just appeared in the last year for golf bags, called the Ogio Schling, which replaced the traditional over-the-shoulder or backpack-style straps of a golf bag. I guess it was a little too interesting, as it appears to have disappeared from the market already. It was a pretty interesting idea - there was a big rigid arm that was like a yoke that fit over both your shoulders. From that a single strap extended down to the bag. When you wanted to pick the bag up, you lifted the entire yoke over your shoulders and it distributed the weight across both of them. It was all an interesting trick of balance. You can see some pictures of what the yoke looked like here - http://www.golfblogger.com/index.php/golf/comments/ogio_flight_ss_schling_stand_bags/. Something like this would definitely work for a bass too, if you could suffer through the R&D of making it happen. In all these cases, the real challenge is that you want the ends of the strap to join as close to the cente of mass of the instrument as possible. David Fung | ||
| elwoodblue
Advanced Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 371 Registered: 6-2002 |
That makes sense ,seems you would need to redistribute the weight to the other shoulder,or use a phil-esque sheepskin oversize pad.(I've considered using my golf bag strap) [ Then there is zz-top's buckle pivoting strap-lock...that could create other issues.] (Message edited by elwoodblue on June 20, 2008) | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 429 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hi Graeme - the extension I saw was a lot more substantial looking than that, and certainly didn't look like it would rip the wood, but I guess I'd never know 'til I've tried it, which for obvious reasons I'm a bit loathe to do! The Slider-esque idea I rigged up just didn't seem to work. I think David has hit on the crucial thing, which is that the bass needs to be supported from a different point entirely (thanks for the post BTW David; some interesting stuff in there). Unfortunately I'm most certainly not willing to perform such surgery on my Alembic, so I guess it's back to the drawing board....I guess the problem of the instrument ultimately being too heavy isn't going to go away, regardless. Now where's that Super Soldier Serum when I need it? ( a Marvel comics reference for all those who think I just flipped...  ) | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1041 Registered: 2-2005 |
Back in the late 70's a bass player I knew with a bad back had a strap that had a single point attachment on the regular bottom strap button and then split into a Y so that a strap then went over each shoulder to attach to the horn button. I tried it and found it to be quite comfortable as it distributed the weight across both shoulders. Have you tried something like that yet? Keith | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 788 Registered: 11-2004 |
Bill, If you're looking to extend the top horn button position, have you considered a strap like those used on acoustic guitars (where the strap attaches all the way up at the nut)? I'm not sure it would reduce the strain on your back, but it would certainly change the weight distribution. This page has an Ashbory strung that way for balance purposes- not sure how it would affect balance or hang on a 34-35" scale bass... http://www.largesound.com/ashboryarticle/mod/strapmove/ | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Advanced Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 317 Registered: 10-2006 |
That suggestion came up once on another thread, Toby, and I responded with this story: years ago, I would frequently play a friend's Höfner-clone violin bass. It had lost the front button, so he tied the strap on at the nut accoustic-style. You'd start with it hung at 2:00, and with in a few bars the nut would be at your shoulder, the body would be over your magic parts, & the A tuner would be in your left ear. Not optimum. As it was a true hollow body, and thus no doubt more inclined to neck dive than any Alembic, I would think that this system would be even less workable for Bill. Peter | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 432 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've actually tried that with similar results to Peter. It was, well, interesting! I can't help but be reminded of my first thought upon seeing Jimmy Johnson in the flesh recently, which was something to the effect of "cripes, he's got a really pronounced stoop". I think I know why.... (Message edited by bigbadbill on June 24, 2008) | ||
| rob_steen
Junior Username: rob_steen Post Number: 16 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hi. I tried to post this already - so my apologies if it shows up twice. I came across this strap on another forum : http://www.thomann.de/ie/planet_waves_50dare000_gitarrengurt.htm It splits over both shoulders. It might help with the weight distribution - but the position of the guitar looks all wrong. Just thought I'd post it to see if it could help. - Rob. | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 433 Registered: 10-2003 |
That actually looks like it would make little difference to the weight distribution; the weight still appears to be on the left shoulder, with the right hand strap just resting. But thanks for posting! I think the balance point on the guitar is the real answer, as David said. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1047 Registered: 2-2005 |
This looks similar to the strap I tried back in the 70's. It actually distributed the weight quite well across both shoulders when adjusted properly. Keith | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6726 Registered: 5-2002 |
But as Rob pointed out, the instrument ends up in a weird position. I still like the idea of the slider strap. The text on the web page says that it distributes the weight 1/3 on each shoulder and 1/3 across the back. There's a nice demo here. Unfortunately the strap itself is only 2" wide; it would be nice if they offered a wider one. But I supposed you could insert pads at the points the straps cross both shoulders. Of course, I've never used one and have no idea if they really work, or how comfortable they are, or how the bass sits relative to the body. | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 403 Registered: 6-2002 |
How many helium balloons would it take to offset 12lbs ? ...that might be a fire hazard with stage lights tho' (thinkin outside the box) | ||
| rob_the_fiend
Member Username: rob_the_fiend Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2007 |
Elwood ...... hydrogen burns .... not helium, helium is perfectly safe. Until the singer inhales, and Disney's lawyers come running with a lawsuit, for inpersonating Donald Duck. ;) | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 405 Registered: 6-2002 |
thanks rob, ok ,...feet back on the ground. | ||
| rob_the_fiend
Member Username: rob_the_fiend Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2007 |
As for how many balloons it would take, in one of the episodes of "Mythbusters" they test how many helium balloons it takes to lift a small child. I don't remember the episode number, but I think it was about 1000-2000 balloons to lift a 40-50 lbs child. | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 406 Registered: 6-2002 |
That might piss off the guitarist ; the bassist have more stage presence than the lead guitar...I remember that episode. | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 435 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well for those interested I think I've finally come to terms with playing my Triple O sitting down, with some padding for my leg (it still digs into my chest but I can live with that). Oh the joy.... It truly is a phenomenal bass and please don't anyone think that the problems I've had in any way reflect on my opinion of the instrument, which is as good as it gets. Thank you to all for listening/advising & thanks to Alembic for building it in the first place! (Message edited by bigbadbill on July 23, 2008) | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 835 Registered: 11-2004 |
What kind of solution did you come up with padding wise? I remember you talking about failed attempts at using a leg pad in the original bad-back thread. I'm happy that there's been a solution for you- Alembics were made to be played! Toby | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 437 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well Toby, I'm still in the process of working out the best thing, but after using all sorts of things that I thought might work would you believe a piece of towelling seems to work best (i.e. as in what bathrobes are made of)? You live and learn... | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 939 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ahhh, terrycloth in America Mike | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 843 Registered: 11-2004 |
Any solution is a good solution- I'm happy you've found a way to play that wonderful bass comfortably. How's your back? Any progress with it? I know your situation is much more serious than mine was, but I'm now 2.5 yrs out from my surgery and I'm totally pain free. | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 440 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hi Toby Well, given you had surgery in the first place I'd say yours was far more serious than mine. Glad to hear that you're fine! I think technically mine isn't all that bad by comparison to many others; according to the specialist who checked me out I'm just one of the unlucky ones who seems to suffer with nerve symptoms that others with the same basic issues don't get. I'm lucky that way! Think I'm badly wired...my dentist also has terrible problems numbing the correct section of my mouth! Maybe I should go and see Ron . One of the more upsetting problems are the spasms I get in my right arm when playing; I can live with the rest. I'd say my right arm facility is at best 75% of where it used to be and on a bad day sometimes I struggle to play the simplest things. Others may not notice (you wouldn't see me playing and think "what's up with that guy?" - well, no more than usual anyway!), but it feels kind of like playing with a 100lb dumbell strapped to your arm. Everything is 10 times the work. As for the terrycloth, I tried all sorts of sponge, foam, all kinds of things I would've thought would work better. Who'd have guessed? (Message edited by bigbadbill on July 25, 2008) | ||
| mario_farufyno
Junior Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2008 |
Sometime ago I saw a Guitar Stand being sold on Musician's Friend that held the entire Guitar (or Bass). Very similar to the one Pat Methney uses on stage to keep the Acoustic Guitar ready to play while he is using the Eletric on strap. This is a good way to free your back from stress... But I never found it again in this last 3 years. | ||
| jimmyj
Junior Username: jimmyj Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2008 |
Here's the thing Mario is talking about, or at least a commercially available unit. I suspect Metheney's was custom built by his crew. I would certainly look for a heavier mic stand base if I was gonna suspend the instrument like this... http://www.bananasmusic.com/productdetail.asp/pid_12681/productname_Mbrace-Guitar-Support-System JJ | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 482 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm with you on that Jimmy (love your playing BTW!). In fact I think I'd want it bolted to the floor and built of titanium...just in case! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3405 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have an mbrace. This, and other units have been the subject of previous discussions here, if you search for them. I've used it to mount a Jerry Jones Coral Sitar that I used for the intro of a song, and then switched to a regular guitar. It works quite well, though as noted above, make sure you have a good solid mike stand, tripods work best, especially for an Alembic or other instrument that is a bit heavier than the Coral. I also modded it by adding staplocks for extra security. Bill, tgo (Message edited by lbpesq on November 28, 2008) | ||
| svlilioukalani
Junior Username: svlilioukalani Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2008 |
This is how Rick Turner is dealing with this on several of his basses.  | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 945 Registered: 11-2004 |
Looks like he stained a big popsicle stick and screwed it to the back.... Not the prettiest solution IMO. Probably totally functional, but it certainly seems to be an afterthought in the design process. | ||
| bigbadbill
Senior Member Username: bigbadbill Post Number: 484 Registered: 10-2003 |
Er, I don't think I'll be adopting that approach.... |
