| Author | Message | ||
| poor_nigel
Junior Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2003 |
I look at all the new rigs out and most seem to be lots of 10" and 12" speakers with little quacker horns in them. Explore this URL: http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html Note that an E string's frequency (E1) is 41.2 Hz. A B string (B0) is 30.87 Hz. I have been checking out the new speakers out there and the best 12"s I can find go down to 45 Hz (4" voice coils and large, ferris magnets). These will not even truly produce an E1, much less a B0. Point = Why do I seem confused on why everyone seems to want 10" and 12" speakers? I am obviously missing something here. Am I missing the ones that go in Ashdowns and Edens, which really do go that low? When you gang four or eight together, do they really extend down to the freqencies needed to faithfully produce the lower notes, or it is just the style to crank up the mid-range and skip the really low notes? I am very open to anyone's knowledge and opinions on what is going on with the newer amps out there. Note: I use 18" JBLs that go down to 30Hz, when paired together, for playing the lows of my five string through. | ||
| bassman10096
Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2003 |
I'm interested in any feedback to your question as well. I'm still looking for good low frequency response, and have ordered a 5 string Alembic (so I'm looking seriously!). Here's my state of the art understanding: Apart from the Edens and other high end 10 inch cabinets that presumably perform well for low f due simply to superior quality, I think I've heard two other general approaches: 1. Acmes (which were designed specifically for low B application), where the 10 in speaker design is altered for a stiffer cone and greater excursion, making the speaker act more like a piston and allowing less cone distortion. The cabinetry is also super nonresonant. 2. Bag End ELF series, where specially designed speakers (10" to 18") are in sealed cabinets and fed by a special, rack mounted crossover unit that also does other things (?). Here the 10" are touted as every bit the subwoofer as a normal 18". The low frequency number for these is 18 Hz. I am a neophyte. Others have spent considerable time discussing these issue in other threads, but I could stand more info and feedback from others who use these and other speakers. Bill | ||
| willie
Junior Username: willie Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2003 |
nigel the diameter of a speaker cone and its mass have a big influence on the frequencies it can reproduce. larger speakers produce lower frequencies better, they move slower and can move more air. smaller speakers like 10's can produce higher frequencies better because with less moving mass they can move faster and react to transients quicker and that gives them more punch. in my opinion its best to use a combination of driver sizes so that you can accurately reproduce the whole range of the bass without distortion. my 4x10 cabinets are edens and they sound great alone run full range but i still get a better overall sound if i bi-amp them along with 1x15 cabinets that way each driver only has to reproduce the frequency range that it can handle the best without distortion. some people are fine with just 15's but it depends on the tone you are after. its the same reason your home stereo speakers have different size drivers, the sound is divided by a cross over and then sent to appropriate driver. if you only use 18's and you pop a G or C string its not going to sound as good as it would if you also had 10's and a compression horn because the 18's cannot reproduce that frequency without distortion, but a rig with a crossover, different size drivers and enough power amp headroom will sound incredible no matter what note you hit especially at extreme volume levels it doesn't matter how many 10's you have , it doesn't alter the frequency resonse of the speakers themselves , but it will sound louder and deeper because the human ear doesn't hear low frequencies as good as higher ones so the increased volume from more drivers may give the impression that the sound is deeper but its not because the speakers are producing any lower frequencies they are just producing the same ones louder and compensating for the uneven response of our ears willie | ||
| fmm
Junior Username: fmm Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2002 |
It does seem to me that increasing the number of drivers in close physical proximity in an array does improve the low frequency response of the speaker array. Back in the 70s we used cabinets built by Mitchell speakers (long since gone out of business). Each cabinet had 8 x 3.5" speakers; I think they were copies of the Bose 800 series. By themselves (one on each side of the stage) their bass response was not good (as you would expect). If you stacked two on top of each other the bass response would improve. If you stacked 4 cabinets the response improved noticeably. According to Mitchell's literature, every time you doubled the size of the stack bass response improved by 3 dB. I recall seeing pictures of stage setups with 4 stacks 16 cabinets high on both sides of the stage as the only front-of-house cabinets. It's probably more practical to increase your low frequency response by adding a 15" or two than by adding another 4 x 10 cabinet (or three...). I still have a pair of the Mitchells. They had a lifetime warranty, and I'm sure that's what killed the company. Their efficiency at low frequencies is not good (as you would expect) but they're not bad for mids & highs. I used to use them in a bi-amped setup, sometimes using a CS-800 to drive a pair of them and another CS-800 for the lows. Now they are relegated to use as stereo speakers in my teaching studio while my home brew 2 x 10 EV cabinet handles the upper end. | ||
| willie
Junior Username: willie Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2003 |
i think i read somwhere about the greatful deads wall of sound which i believe was designed by alembic that they stacked about 14 cabinets on top of each other each with a 15" jbl loaded in it on each side of the stage. the reason being that the wavelength of an open E string is over 30 ft tall so if the system producing that signal is as tall it will project that signal much better. i,m sure there are some folks in here that will know alot more about that system than i do so hopefully they help out | ||
| bassman10096
Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2003 |
For those with an interest in the Dead's 1970's Wall of Sound system, check it out here: http://www.dead.net/cavenweb/deadfile/newsletter19wallsound.html. | ||
| dnburgess
Intermediate Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 177 Registered: 1-2003 |
Nigel The performance (including bass extension) of a speaker system is a function of much more than the size of the drivers. Cabinet design (especially porting), cabinet construction, crossover design, physical layout, number of drivers, etc will all influence the ultimate performance. Its interesting to look at high end hi-fi - which appears to have been the subject of far more design expenditure and effort than instrument speakers. About 25 years ago Infinity established what has become one of the dominant ultra high end speaker paradigms with the IRS, which was a three way system with 6 x 12" woofers in a tower and low end response down to 15Hz. http://oellerer.net/infinity_classics/IRS/body_irs.html Now days most high end speakers use one or more 10" or smaller woofers in a three way design with low end response to 30Hz or better. (There are, of course, notable exceptions.) Three way systems (i.e. separate bass, mid & treble) appear to have evolved as the best compromise between improvements due to optimising the speaker for the band it is covering and problems arising from crossovers, etc. This approach has permeated the instrument field with manufacturers such as Acme and Accugroove who take an adiophile approach to instrument speakers. But there is an enormous amount of history / fashion / inertia / ignorance / disinformation influencing marketing and purchasing decisions. (Does anybody really like the sound of a piezo tweeter?) The truth is out there. | ||
| alemboid
Junior Username: alemboid Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2003 |
I know Accugroove has a 21" sub cabinet out now. One of those, or heaven preventing-two of those plus a 4x10 with a decent tweeter would probably be enough to move serious earth. If you are like me, I'd love to have this capability in a box measuring 15"x12"x18" tall-with 120 dbl efficiency and 22 lbs weight. Did I mention concert hall volume levels? It's tough. Keeping in mind the more complex your system is, the greater risk for malfunction. In the big picture, the audience in the end hears your bass through the PA from your DI out anyway. So, there is something to be said for simplicity, component quality and an ally at the sound board. My home stereo speakers are planar flat panels. They are about an inch thick, and around 5 feet tall. Sound quality is jaw dropping, but in no way suitable for bass guitar sound pressure levels. My point is that there is an application at about every level in audio. For now, Acme, Bergantino, EA, Eden, Bag End, Ampeg etc. are making great cabs. There is a subtle difference in each, and what sounds best to the user is the best way to go. Unfortunately, depending on your needs, size may be an issue in the end. For me, I've tried almost all, including making my own cabinets ranging from 2x10's to giant 15" folded horn bass bins. I bought and sold Bag End cabinets, only to come back to buying them again. They don't reach as low as some, but in the end, they are the most "musical" of the cabinets I've used. I'd say the Acme cabs are nice, too. Forums like this are great, as it helps educate the buyer! No doubt, speakers are important. It's the way we immediately hear ourselves, so the most accurate product to our ear is what we should use. Only you can be the judge. Now I wanna go play bass. See ya- Bryant | ||
| poor_nigel
Junior Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2003 |
I checked out the Acme speakers, and was a bit dismayed that they lost 6 db at 30Hz. Since every 3 db is double the volume, this is a significant loss. I have known for 35 years never to play live bass through audiphile speakers, unless they belong to someone you really dislike. I have been hoping someone would put out high quality bass speakers with kevlar cones, large voice coils, alnico or rare earth magnets that would run efficiently, like old JBLs do. I believe I will just stick to my 18"s and 15"s for bottom, and use as many 12"s, 10"s, and 2" horns for mids and highs as necessary for when I am playing around. I have dollies and hand trucks and a truck for hauling it all around. Polk put out some woofers with kevlar cones that are tiny and just blow me away with their low end. However, I like my friend that owns them, so I will never play a bass through them. I believe the reason no one has really put out high-end speakers for playing is that the market probably would not bear it. Cobalt used to be much cheaper in the 40's through 60's than it has become. I don't know of too many musicians willing to pop the $3,000 to $10,000 quality audiophile speakers cost, for a cab or two to play through. Even JBL has cheapened their line with feris (ferus?) magnets and aluminum voice coils, paper instead of cork. as that is what the market demands. As far as speakers go, it seems upgrading these days is not really so, in fact. Electronics are a much different story, however. I'll stick to the inconvenience of large, heavy boxes to move around, cause I love the sound they produce. Then again, I am open to something new, if it can cut it. Now to go check out those 21' woofs! | ||
| dnburgess
Intermediate Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 178 Registered: 1-2003 |
The Acme's are -3dB at 40Hz and -6dB at 30Hz. Bear in mind that is an anechoic measurement. Unless your gigs are in an anechoic chamber you will, if your speakers are on the floor, get some loading from the floor which means that the perceived performance on the B string is pretty good - certainly better than many more expensive "bass guitar speakers". (Its worth noting that the Acme's are designed to roll off very steeply below low B - so they'r not really suitable for detuned 5 & 6 strings.) There are many Acme fans on Talkbass - some of whom even know what they're talking about. | ||
| alemboid
Junior Username: alemboid Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2003 |
"kevlar cones, large voice coils, alnico or rare earth magnets"...you've described Euphonic Audio cabinets to a "T". I find their boxes a bit dry and sterile. I am curious about the Neodymium magnets, as they do save weight over the ferrous type. I think I've learned my lesson. The "hi-fi" cabs are ok, but for me, Bag End speakers have decent lows, low mids, mids, hi mids and highs, are efficient, sound great cranked and are really reliable. If I can stop buying/trying speakers, I could afford that burled cocobolo custom series 2 5 string!!!! (lol!) Bryant | ||
| alemboid
Junior Username: alemboid Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2003 |
"kevlar cones, large voice coils, alnico or rare earth magnets"...you've described Euphonic Audio cabinets to a "T". I find their boxes a bit dry and sterile. I am curious about the Neodymium magnets, as they do save weight over the ferrous type. Word up on those large, heavy boxes. When the sound is right, why fix what's not broken? I think I've learned my lesson. The "hi-fi" cabs are ok, but for me, Bag End speakers have decent lows, low mids, mids, hi mids and highs, are efficient, sound great cranked and are really reliable (heh, sounds kind of, er, "hi-fi"). Again-my drummer and I get the benefits. The audience gets the soundman's interpetation of what sounds "right" for bass in the mix (kind of disturbing)-I've had bassist/friends come to shows to kindly help the soundguy-not just for bass, but for overall balance. If I can stop buying/trying speakers, I could afford that burled cocobolo custom series 2 5 string!!!! (lol!) Bryant | ||
| poor_nigel
Junior Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2003 |
Follow-up on Accugrove Speakers. They are using Beyma speakers, which are a Portugal speaker company (I am assuming this, as their site gives a choice of English and Portuguese). You can buy them raw at http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2021L50-1.htm (They carry a lot of them, not just the 21" that seems very interesting). It seems a few speakers at the US Speakers site are using neodymium magnets. It is an interesting tour for checking what is currently on the market. The Professional speaker part of the Beyma site is still under construction. Patience boy, patience. It is obvious that I have had my head in the sand for too long on the new technology of speakers out there. Maybe speaker technology for professional applications did not die with the 60's. Money talks - The 21" Beyma woofs are listed at US Speaker for close to $1,200 each. I hope this is retail, as I cannot see them being worth more. I am pretty happy with my small, distilled collection of basses, so I would gladly pop $1,600 for a pair of these puppies to play around in my shop with. Of an interesting note at the US Speakers site is a pair of 12" P. Audio TM SERIES woofers that I cannot quite figure out. I am sure I would blow them up in bass bins, so . . . .  | ||
| davehouck
Advanced Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 343 Registered: 5-2002 |
Beyma appears to be located in Moncada, Valencia, Spain. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 993 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yep Dave, Valencia Spain it is. Just by coincidence I have to change the woofers (12") of my home stereo system (I didn't do so yet). It appears to be Beyma's. I went to a store here in Antwerp and the guy rated them VERY high and ...expensive. Paul the bad one | ||
| yahyabb
Junior Username: yahyabb Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2002 |
Nigel; If size and weight are not a factor, you might consider a "full range" 18" cabinet and a 2-12". This combination works very well if you have a stiff amp driving them. Pushing a good 18" cabinet is not an easy task. Yahya | ||
| 811952
Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 74 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've been using an 18 in a folded horn a la the acoustic 360/370 series. It sounds like crap up close in a small room, but the sound really develops in a larger room (I've been using it at basketball games with a "band" band). That said, I've heard a 4-10 in the same space produce a clean fundamental B. It all depends on the cabinet, placement and the space. I prefer a front loaded and ported 18 for lows/mids with a 2-10 cabinet for the mids/highs, and none of the parts weigh more than I can carry. :-) Also, I think these days you can pickup a used 18 for a song, so to speak. In fact, my brother has a Carvin 18 folded horn (with a Black Widow driver) he'd like to get out of his basement. I can ask him what he wants for it if anybody is interested.. John the "he plays through old junk" one | ||
| poor_nigel
Junior Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well, it is 2004 and I have done some shopping around. I am far from speaker poor and have lots of everything JBL, from ring radiators to 18's, short-throw and long throw. But it is time to build a new rig this year, just cause I wanna. I have checked all kinds of places and went over all kinds of specs and price lists. This guy from QSC is selling lots of JBL 2450H 2" drivers with neodymium magnets for only $700 a pair, warranty still intact, on eBay. Cool beans. I bought two pair for my new rig. He is also selling a bunch of 10" and 12" pairs of JBLs, as new for low prices. Great, I just cut a deal with him for four pairs of 10" 2012H for a grand. For lows I shopped hardests and have decided on some Electrovoice EVX 180Bs, which I have seen for as low as $430 apiece (Retail is around $700-750 I think), plus shipping. They have the best specs, and have kevlar cones, if that interests you, for under $1,000. Speaking of Peavey, their lowrider 18" have very good specs too, and can be had for around $200 each - what a great deal. I chose the EVs because they resonate @ 29Hz, lower than a B string. Plus they seemed the best deal for everything I wanted, except the low weight of neodymium magnets - but hey, the boxes will be huge and heavy, so forget that! As far as amperage goes, I think I will just pick up a set of Stewart Worlds and tri-amp em. I have been working like a dog this tax season, and I deserve a big perk. I build my own boxes, and since oak plywood was selling for $59 a sheet, when regular one-finished-sided was going for $50, guess what they will be made out of. The tops will end up looking a lot like Eden 4-10" cabs, but with dual horns (I never run singles as diaphragms are soooo out rageously priced!) and the bottoms will just be 28 cubic foot short throw ones that kind of match the tops. 28 cubic feet??? Oh, that's cause they will have two 18"s in each. I want some BOTTOM end! Maybe I will zip across the boarder and get some birch marine grade plywood - Why not make em to last?! Yep, Christmas is coming late this year, but a merry one it will be. Plus I will have a fun summer building them all. Thanks for the input and directions pointed. | ||
| 811952
Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 78 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thomas, I vaguely recall the days when I played in bands that allowed me to use that much equipment. Very cool indeed. I would love to hear it when you've gotten everything built and tweaked! Of course, I should be able to feel it from over here... John | ||
| wideload
Junior Username: wideload Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2003 |
I remember the old days... when I wished I had 2 Acoustic folded horns instead of just one so I could use them for headphones! I still love the sound, as long as I'm outdoors with a deep stage. Larry | ||
| thebass
Intermediate Member Username: thebass Post Number: 110 Registered: 3-2003 |
Just an input to the original question: I think the low frequency response of speakers is not the main concern (ok, ok, please stop beating me ;-). Have you ever asked yourself why your beloved Alembic sounds so good on a small guitar combo size amp or even on a small radio ? It's the harmonics that makes the sound ! Even with amps and cabinets which are not able to reproduce anything below 50Hz you still hear the E1 and below. The fundamental is always the same but the number of harmonics and the level of them makes the specific sound. I guess this is the reason why so many bass players (including me) prefer 10" over 15" or 18" speakers. The 10" speaker has a much better high end roll of and reproduces the harmonics much better. Of course, his is just my personal preference. | ||
| alembic76407
Advanced Member Username: alembic76407 Post Number: 246 Registered: 5-2002 |
you guy got me thinking, maybe my big amp (Tornadic Thunder) need's some 18s to help the lo's and a butt load of 8s to punch up the hi's, and a gig where I can use all of it, O YA!! and a Peterbuilt with 2 Roadie's , but I do love the late 60s and the early 70s for bass amp technology, bigger was better, when your amp was as heavy as a Buick and needed it's own zip code. David T (The Loud One) (also with the bad back) | ||
| son_of_magni
Junior Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2004 |
Werner is exactly right about the harmonics. Of course a guitar player would be using 10's for the fundimentals, but for a bass 4x10's is usually perfect for a hot punchy midrange sound. But if you really want a bottom end that will make the walls move you need to add something like a 1x18. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1021 Registered: 9-2002 |
Brother Thomas, you actually going to build that rig yourself. I guess you did the same thing brother David TT??? Gosh ...it seems so ...well ...huge to do?!?! I think when I would touch that construction it would definitely ends up by a big "BANG" and ...that's it! Really admirable what you guys can do! Paul the not so handy one | ||
| henri_lopes
New Username: henri_lopes Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2004 |
The reason why Beyma uses portuguese instead of spanish is because Valencia (Spain) borders northern Portugal and they have a different dialect wich is very similar to portuguese. |
