| Author | Message | ||
| ggunn
Junior Username: ggunn Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2006 |
I restrung my Epic 5 with Rotosound Swing Bass strings, and I really like them. The low B is much clearer than it was before, but unfortunately the bridge doesn't have enough travel to set the intonation. With the saddle on the B string set all the way flat, the B string is noticeably (unusably) sharp anywhere above the 5th fret. What to do? | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 610 Registered: 1-2008 |
Is the truss rod adjusted properly (see Joey's Set-up Guide in the "Must Read" section)? | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9478 Registered: 5-2002 |
What method of measurement are you using? I think the method most here have agreed to be the best is tuning to the 12th fret harmonic, and then setting intonation by comparing the fretted note at the 12th fret to the harmonic at the 12th fret. Are you using this method or another method? | ||
| ggunn
Junior Username: ggunn Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2006 |
I'm pretty sure that the truss rod is where it needs to be, but I'll check it. The action is fine. I am comparing the chimed harmonic to the fretted note at the 12th fret with a strobe tuner, and the fretted note is significantly sharp with the saddle all the way back. And like I said, when I play up the neck on the B string it is audibly sharp. (Message edited by ggunn on July 25, 2010) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9483 Registered: 5-2002 |
My guess is that you'll need to get Mica's advice on this. I'll move the thread to the troubleshooting section where she's more likely to notice it. | ||
| ggunn
Junior Username: ggunn Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2006 |
Thanks,Dave: I didn't know about this sub-subforum. | ||
| ggunn
Junior Username: ggunn Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2006 |
Mike1762 wrote: "Is the truss rod adjusted properly (see Joey's Set-up Guide in the "Must Read" section)?" I found that article and went through the checks. The truss rod(s) and nut height measurements are just as he recommends. (Message edited by ggunn on July 25, 2010) | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 611 Registered: 1-2008 |
This is interesting... the last time (1 month ago) that I restrung my Series 1 I used a set of Rotos I had lying around. The intonation was off so I did a complete set-up (via Joey's method). I had to run the "E" saddle all the way out and the "G" saddle all the way in in order to get it right. I changed strings today, but I went back to my usual DR Hi Beams (same gauge as the Rotos: 95s). The intonation was off on all strings... especially the "E" and "G". The saddles are now more towards the middle (as they were with my previous set of DRs). From a physics standpoint I can't imagine why string brand would make a difference, but it appears that it can. Based on that, you might want to try a different set of strings. Anybody have any thoughts on this phenomena? | ||
| ggunn
Junior Username: ggunn Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2006 |
Thanks, Mike, but these strings, especially the B, sound a lot better to me than any of the other 8 or so different makes/models of strings I have tried on that bass. With the exception of the intonation probs, of course. I think that maybe they are heavier weight per unit length than other strings of the same thickness, which would account for both the tighter feel (more tension) and the change in intonation. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9485 Registered: 5-2002 |
By the way Gordon, when I moved the thread, I sent an email to you to let you know where, but the email bounced. Thought I'd let you know. | ||
| jcdlc72
Member Username: jcdlc72 Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2009 |
Has anyone used an Epic 5 with D'Addario XL .045s set? I've had my Epic for almost a year already, and it came with a set of white silk string ends (don't know which brand) which sound great, but are starting to fade out a little bit. D'addarios are the somewhat best we can find currently around here (Caracas-Venezuela), and I've been reluctant to use those on the Epic, but needed be, I'll have to, unless I find something better (I'd love me some DRs, but nobody around here carries those!). | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1168 Registered: 5-2009 |
For round wounds I have never had a problem with Dean Markley "Blue Steel", they hold their tone for a long time as well . | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 437 Registered: 5-2002 |
Theoretically, strings would flex perfectly and ideally and intonation adjustability would not be needed, but in real life, they behave quite differently. In practice, the stiffness of strings at the ends tend to make them act like they are shorter than the measured length of the string, and you adjust the bridge to compensate for that stiffness. As strings get thicker, you usually expect the strings to get more stiff and require more intonation adjustment. But that's not guaranteed, because the stiffness is not only a function of gauge - the thickness of the core wire and wrap wires, construction, and materials all factor in too. So, you should expect intonation adjustments will be required any time you change brands or gauges of strings. Hopefully, if you replace your current strings with the same brand and gauge you *won't* have to reset the intonation! Unfortunately, if the overall setup is appropriate, and the bridge doesn't have enough travel to bring it to proper intonation, you may not be able to use this particular string. I love Rotosound Swing Bass strings too, but don't use them on my 5-string basses because I never had good results on the low-B. This wasn't an intonation problem for me, but I found that the low B just sounds very different than the other 4 strings. It may be worth trying a different B-string, but that may be an expensive experiment. For what it's worth, I've had better luck with GHS Boomers and DR Low-Riders depending on the instrument, but don't like them as much as the Roto 4-string set. David Fung | ||
| mario_farufyno
Senior Member Username: mario_farufyno Post Number: 459 Registered: 9-2008 |
Hey Juan Carlos (jcdlc72), I'm brazilian and currently buy my strings directly from webstores like Guitarcenter, Juststrings or Musiciansfriend. Don't know about Venezuelan's importing laws, but I buy things with my international credit card and get those buys at home using regular post offices or "courier" services (like UPS or FedEx). | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 613 Registered: 1-2008 |
David: Thanks for the explanation!!! | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1449 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've used Roto Swing Bass on my fives before with no problem, back when my local Sam Ash was blowing them out for $20 a set. I will tell you that Alembics generally prefer the .128 they're built for (a .130 is an OK substitute), but you can run out of saddle travel once you get up around .135, depending on the brand. 'Piano-end' (taper wound) strings can be a real party, too. And as David noted, some B's are just not very flexible. This may be a particular glitch in this one string. Next time you buy a set of Roto 5's, it will either happen again, or it may be just fine and never happen again. Up to you as to whether you want to try another set. Occasionally one string in a set is just going to be a problem child . . . IF you're satisfied that there's no obvious set up problems (binding nut slot or bridge saddle, high enough action to pull it sharp, big relief, really high pickups on the B-side)), for me I'd just play it, I doubt it could be heard in regular playing, unless you've all got VERY good ears. Or just yank 'em, and do something else. And yes: Any time you replace strings, unless you're replacing with exactly what's on it now, you WILL have to retouch your intonation adjustments, possibly your action if you're sensitive to small changes in feel. A 45 to 125 set of GHS Boomers is NOT the same thing as a 45 to 125 set of XL's or HiBeams or SwingBass, even though the guages are exactly the same. Even slight changes in guage/brand are completely different as far as intonation is concerned. The Black Art of String Winding covers metallurgy, the core thickness, the wrap(s) thickness, the wrap tension, hand wound/machine wound, round core, hex core, and on and on: This is why a Boomer .45 and a Deep Talkin' Bass .45 and an XL .45 are all very different animals, feel-, tension-, and intonation-wise. J o e y | ||
| ggunn
Junior Username: ggunn Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2006 |
bigredbass wrote: "IF you're satisfied that there's no obvious set up problems (binding nut slot or bridge saddle, high enough action to pull it sharp, big relief, really high pickups on the B-side)), for me I'd just play it, I doubt it could be heard in regular playing, unless you've all got VERY good ears. Or just yank 'em, and do something else." I've checked out all that stuff and can find no problems, but I beg to differ on the audibility of the intonation anomaly. I had put the strings on and hadn't adjusted the intonation yet (but the B saddle was already at its limit from the previous set) when I hosted a jam in my studio. Someone started up a song in G, and the first time I played the root up on the B string, I immediately knew something was wrong (and so did the keyboard player). It's not subtle; the fretted octave B is about an eighth tone sharp; the pattern on my strobe tuner moves to the right about half as fast as it moves to the left if I set it on C. It's very audible. I hear what you are saying about trying something else, but of the 8 or more makes/models of strings I have tried so far, these are the first ones where I have been satisfied with the feel and sound of the B string. Aside from the intonation difficulty, of course. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9495 Registered: 5-2002 |
I don't have great ears, but when my intonation was off on my B string, I too could easily hear it when playing on the high end of the neck. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 6832 Registered: 6-2000 |
I checked with James, and he suggests that on a new string, especially the B string, you need to work the string in. He wiggles it around right at the saddle back and forth and up and down and plays plays plays it to break the string in. Typical intonation settings on a 5-string longscale bass looks like:  If you could post an image of your bridge settings, then we could all have some reference points. If you need more travel out of the intonation, there's a couple of ways of going about it. You could install a bridge block (like the pictures I posted show), mounting it more in the direction you need the intonation room. You could also move the threaded mounting inserts (or add a second set) and skip the block. You could modify the saddle or the bridge:  The darker area shows where you could cut away material from the rail, the lighter area shows where you could cut away material from the saddle to gain more intonation throw. But, before any modification, I'd try making sure the string is broken in, and that witness point is less round plus I'd try a second set of the strings to make sure it's not a strange string. If the problem persists, then you'll have to decide what route your most comfortable with in making the modifications. I would also add that different strings with different tension and feel may make you play differently. You can pretty easily pull a quarter tone by your fretting style alone even on your old favorite strings. | ||
| ggunn
Junior Username: ggunn Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2006 |
Thanks, Mica; I'll get back to you soon. BTW what size allen wrench does it take to adjust the saddles? I have a boatload of them, but they are all the wrong sizes. It's not the same as for the bridge height; I have that one. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 6833 Registered: 6-2000 |
The intonation is 7/64" hex driver (get a ball end one if you can). A complete list of the adjustment tools is here. | ||
| ggunn
Junior Username: ggunn Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2006 |
Problem solved. Pretty weird, though. With my thumb, I pressed down (toward the body) very hard several times on the B string just inside (on the nut side) the saddle, and now, with the saddle still as far back as it can go, the intonation is *almost* in - close enough, anyway. The pattern on my strobe tuner is down to a very slow crawl on the fretted octave. I can live with it. Thanks to Mica, David, and Joey for talking to me about the stiffness of the strings; apparently that's what made the difference. The B string needed some help to bend over the bridge saddle. | ||
| jcdlc72
Member Username: jcdlc72 Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2009 |
Mario (Farufyno): Thatīs exactly what I used to do until strict restrictions regarding the yearly allowance of foreign currencies for internet transactions began here in Venezuela (we' re only allowed 400$ a year), and this last January the protocol to request the yearly allowance had changed, making it even more difficult. But still we manage.  | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9496 Registered: 5-2002 |
Gordon; I'm glad it's working better for you! | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1453 Registered: 9-2002 |
Of course, now, after the fact, I remember a BP interview with Anthony Jackson who ALWAYS does the drill of bending the B at the nut and saddle every time he installs new strings . . . . d'oh! J o e y |
