| Author | Message | ||
| ezra
New Username: ezra Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2003 |
Hello everyone, I'm a newbie to the club but not to alembic. I owned a series 1 in 1975 which was stolen, and replaced it in '76 with a new series1. I know, pictures, pictures. I promise they will be forthcoming, but first things first. I'm putting a new rig together and need some help/ advice on signal path. OK here goes. First off I want to run in stereo. Equipment is as follows: DS5R, F2B, SF2, Korg DTR 2000, Alessis midiverb, QSCPLX3402, running into 2 Accugroove El Whappos. Appreciate any and all comments. Thanks! Ezra | ||
| hollis
Junior Username: hollis Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2003 |
Those speakers look dangerous! Welcome to the club! You asked for any and all comments....soooo, here goes. The Alessis seems like it might be an Achilles' Heel (not a bad little unit, but somewhat out-classed by the rest of the rig). Don't get me wrong, the Midiverb is certainly adequate for many applications, I just feel that it lacks the warmth available from other reverb rack mounts....That being said, THAT IS ONE KILLER SYSTEM! | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 403 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hi Ezra, welcome to the group! Sounds like a very nice rig. You should be able to keep it stereo (two channel) all the way through. If it were me, I would go DS5R, F2B, SF2, Alesis, QSC. I like having the preamp first to go ahead and get the tube warmth into the signal, then the SF2 to do final tone shaping, then the Alesis to "wet" the final signal. For the tuner I would run a cable from one of the extra inputs on the F2B (or perhaps the mono out) to the tuner input. That keeps the tuner out of the signal chain. | ||
| bassman10096
Intermediate Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 166 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yeah, the speakers are what I'm salivating over! By and large, I think Hollis identified the only place I would even quesion. Though if I read right, you putting together "a new rig". Are you unhappy with any of the components now? I'd be especially curious about your feedback on the Whappos, since they are on my short list at the moment. Your description of sound, volume compared to high-end, hifi 410's and any other observation would be appreciated. (And, of course, pictures, pictures!) Welcome to the Club. If you haven't been "reading-in" on the Club for a while, this is a really good collection of people, without many of the bad habits seen on most other boards. I hope you'll get the feedback you are looking for from a wide variety of viewpoints on your question. Bill | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1105 Registered: 9-2002 |
Brother Ezra (mmmm...THAT sounds nice), welcome to the club! I keep my big mouth shut about those pictures but still ...maybe ...once ...if you have a camera ...please??? I follow Dave in his set-up. My rig's path is about the same principle only I work with teh F1-X in bi-amp. BTW: the Lexicon effect are with me only over the "high" signal just before the input to Power Amp. Paul the bad one PS: there are great people in this club. Be friendly for the weird talking ones ...they are Elfs! | ||
| bracheen
Advanced Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 257 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ezra and Bill, I seem to remember someone else mentioning using the El Whappos recently. I recall because the name was so cool. Anyway maybe a search of topics might shed some insight to them. Welcome to the club Ezra. I hope you enjoy your time hear. The preemptive Pictures, pictures strike was impressive. Sam | ||
| bassman10096
Intermediate Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 171 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks Sam. I did search and found several references and individuals using Accugroove speakers. Other than some very complimentary comments on the Tri 12, there was little in the way of info and impressions on the El Whappo or the other models. I will be talking to Bass Central this week to get more info, since they are carrying the Accugroove line. The El Whappos are definitely a big investment for a single cabinet, and not light to move. On the other hand, they are reputed to carry the same kind of punch you'd pay about the same to build in many other high end lines. At that point, the single cabinet (as opposed to moving a 410 + some other woofer cab) is not as daunting. I'm still leaning in the direction of 2 Acme B210's for ease of moving (Don't always have to take both/can always add a third if needed, but then the cost climbs into Accugroove territory). I think one of the other appeals of the Whappo is that it relies on a 15 for deep bass and includes a 12 for mid bass. I'm just a throwback at heart - You know: bass speakers MUST be big!). Unless I completely lose it and try the Whappo first, I'll probably get the chance to try out the 210 Acmes and see if speaker technology has really advanced enough to put me at rest about getting enough deep bass. But enough of that, what about Ezra's quandry? Bill | ||
| bkbass
New Username: bkbass Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2003 |
I had a chance to play through an el whappo using a triple omega w/signature electronics going through a eden wt800 head.I found the sound to be clear and open,a little sterile in the lows with tweeters that didn't seem to be on the leading edge of the note(no spitting}.Overall it sounded very,very close to a bi-amp rig in mono.My suggestion to you would be to look at more frequency separation between the two cabinets.ie:a tri-112 for highs and mids and a el gordo for the lows and lower mids(check out the specs for a sub it goes pretty high).It seems to be a waste of money to have a cabinet for the lows that is cable of reproducing all those highs and mids that your never going to hear on the low end.Now that is just my useless opinion.Near me,the only dealer for accugroove is getting full list price for the cabinets!Does anybody know of a dealer with any kind of discount on these?Also the crossover inside the cabinet(el whappo)does not have the provision to bi-amp a single cabinet.As I comparison in the three way cabinet arena check out Bag End's AF-1 cabinets(remember Andy West's rig with the Dixie Dreg's?He used it with an alembic back then.4 cabinets I think.) they include a high freq horn,12"mid and a 18"woofer and it can be bi-amped.Also,going just by list prices el whappo @ $2,300.00 vs AF-1 @$1,800.00(road version).The accugroove is approx 38" tall the bag end is 44" tall but has wheels and handles in a hand truck fashion with a hard snap in panel to protect the drivers.PLUS you can get a discounted price just about anywhere Leaving you more moola for the next Alembic LOL! | ||
| bassman10096
Intermediate Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 172 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks for the thorough review, Barry!! Interesting thoughts on alternatives, too. Your point about cramming both low and high specialty drivers into on cab make sense. I haven't found a dealer willing to discount Accugrooves either (though I haven't talked to BassCentral, yet). I did not realize the Whappo was not biampable, either (just assumed it would be - far less expensive cabinets are.) I'll check out the Bag Ends today. BTW, I grew up in NJ - Ridgewood ('72) and lived in Passaic and Wallington (during the Parcells Giant years). Thanks again. Bill | ||
| poor_nigel
Junior Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hey Boyz. When ya want a discount, always check on eBay. El Whappos are going for $1,400 new and some guy is selling ones he calls collector's items for $1,300. Just use Accugroove for the search. | ||
| bassman10096
Intermediate Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 174 Registered: 7-2003 |
Found em. Thanks Nigel. That certainly puts a new wrinkle to things... Bill | ||
| dnburgess
Intermediate Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 191 Registered: 1-2003 |
Bill Bear in mind that the Acme Low B-2s are down 6 dB @ low B (approx. 31 Hz). That's better than all the Accugrooves except the El Whappo which weighs 98 lbs and lists for $2043 vs the Acme's 50 lbs and $480. With two B2s you've got about the same weight but half the price - and its a super versatile set up. Take one to small gigs (up to, say, 150 seats), two to bigger gigs. Stack em vertically on end to create a bass line array. Use 'em as a mini PA in a pinch. Why they'll even darn your socks and make coffee. Ooops, got a bit carried away... David B. | ||
| bassman10096
Intermediate Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 175 Registered: 7-2003 |
David: For exactly the reasons you mentioned, I'll probably try the Acmes first. If I need even more heft, a third Low B2 would work (might take a little creative daisy-chaining to get the impedances right). In the end, as long as they don't leave streaks when they wash the windows or leave any of the white stuff I hate when they wax my car, all other things equal, the Acmes are probably much more the deal I'm looking for. One question, though: What would you be driving at by stacking the cabinets on end? Thanks for your thoughts on all this. And congrats on the new Alembic - It was you who bought it, right? Bill | ||
| 811952
Intermediate Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 108 Registered: 10-2003 |
Stacking so that the speakers are in a line vertically gives you a non-directional array in the horizontal plane, because they will all be in phase. Lining them up side-by-side makes them directional in the horizontal plane, because of phase cancellation/interaction. Think of it in terms of time-alignment, if you will. The vertical array maintains the drivers at approximately the same distance from any point in front or off to the side, whereas the horizontal array puts the speakers the same distance only if you're directly in front of the array and staggers them incrementally greater distances from any point off to either side. I.E., you'll hear them great if you're in front of them, but won't if you're off to either side. To test this, play a cd through a mono P.A. system and walk from side to side and listen to the flanging sound as you move... John the audio/physics lay-person | ||
| bassman10096
Intermediate Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 177 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks, John. That makes perfect sense. I'll try it and hopefully the sound kinetics don't threaten to topple the stack (I like a LOT of deep bass!). Perhaps using the optional pole mount sockets I can secure them better. Bill | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1118 Registered: 9-2002 |
About Acme: anybody tried the Bi-amping set up where a B2W is underneath a B2 "normal"? I just read about it on their website. TX Paul the bad one | ||
| bassman10096
Intermediate Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 180 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hi Paul: I'm curous about the same thing. I've been considering Acmes. If I went with them, would biamp a pair of LowB2's. But clearly, my style of play would not require both cab's to have mid and tweeter. Just one running full range and the other running just like a LowB2W. I really don't want to buy a "W" if the mid and tweeter can be fully attenuated using the controls on the back of one of the cabinets. A "W" is essentially just a sub, while for $100 more, I can have a more versatile, full range version of the same cabinet. I Emailed Andy at Acme just now to find out if full attenuation is possible. I'd be interested if anyone out there has tried what you are suggesting, as it sounds like the most intuitive way for me to set up am Acme rig. Bill (Message edited by bassman10096 on March 01, 2004) (Message edited by bassman10096 on March 01, 2004) | ||
| dnburgess
Intermediate Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 194 Registered: 1-2003 |
I am getting a Low B-2W in my next shipment to experiment with various setups. So I'll report back. Andy Lewis at Acme recommends that when being used together the B-2 and B-2W should both be driven full range. Bill: The attenuators on the mid and tweet give 20dB cut. And, yes, I did buy the vermillion Epic - I look forward to checking it out. | ||
| bob
Intermediate Member Username: bob Post Number: 150 Registered: 11-2002 |
David, 20dB cut - at what frequencies? Or more generally, do you know where the crossover points are? And does the B2W stop at the same point, or does it go a bit higher? (presumably there is no crossover). Not shopping, just curious. | ||
| bob
Intermediate Member Username: bob Post Number: 151 Registered: 11-2002 |
(removed double post) (Message edited by bob on March 01, 2004) | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 412 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bob; I was unable to find the crossover points in the owners manual or on the web site. However, the owner's manual includes a reprint of a Bassplayer magazine article which gives the crossover points as 1kHz and 9kHz. The article is from 1996 but it appears from what I've read in the manual and on the web site that the crossover hasn't changed since then except for the addition of a protection circuit. The web site states that the B-2W is "identical to the B-2 ... but without the midrange and tweeter". So perhaps that means a low-pass setting of 1kHz. | ||
| dnburgess
Intermediate Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 196 Registered: 1-2003 |
As far as I'm aware there is no crossover or filter in the B2W - just not much output above 1000Hz. BTW, Acme full range speakers are not biampable - i.e. there are only full range inputs. David B. | ||
| peter_jonas
Junior Username: peter_jonas Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ezra, Just returning to the original topic, it certainly seems a good idea from a number of points of view to have the SF-2 after the F-2B, but I have found that using a Series I bass connected to (the less sensitive) input 2 of the F-2B, the SF-2 can so easily be driven into clipping. The clipped signals sound really aweful, and, as in some respects they are very similar to square waves, they can easily damage your speaker if you are running close to the speaker's limit when this happens. I have had several discusions about this problem to various people, but noone else seems to be having similar trouble. If I turn the volume on the F-2B to 4 or beyond, even moderate playing will cause this to happen. Have any of you guys observed this? Maybe its just my SF-2. On the other hand, as Dave Houck suggests it is probably a good idea to keep the tuner out of the direct signal chain, and try to feed it from a secondary output in perhaps the effects unit (whatever that may turn out to be). However, I would not suggest to use the mono output on the F-2B for this purpose, as this is not a buffered output, and as soon as you place a plug in the mono output jack, mixing resistors are switched into circuit, which will seriously impair channel separation and output impedance of the stereo outputs. I do not think the mono and stereo outputs are intended to be used concurrently. Cheers. Peter Jonas | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 413 Registered: 5-2002 |
Peter, good point about the mono output; thanks. I have an F-1X instead of an F-2B, so I wasn't sure if the mono output would work. | ||
| wayne
Member Username: wayne Post Number: 93 Registered: 5-2002 |
You can keep the tuner out of the signal path by using the secondary output jacks on the back of the DS-5R. You only lose the ability to mute the output to the speakers while tuning - that is unless you simply turn the volume down on the amp.... C-Ya............wayne | ||
| peter_jonas
Junior Username: peter_jonas Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dave, You are quite right about the F-1X, its output stage is different. I used to have one in my rack. I used the full range output to drive the power amp, and I fed the tuner from the bass output. It worked quite well. Since I've had the F-2B I've been using a secondary line output of the compressor I've got just before the power amp. That is also OK. Cheers, Peter | ||
| ezra
New Username: ezra Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2003 |
Thanks everyone for the input. Still haven't finalized the path yet. Peter thanks for the heads up on not using the mono and stereo outs simultaneuosly. Curious as to what happens if you plug your series bass into the #1 inputs on the F2B. Wayne thanks for the advice on using the secondary outputs on the back of the DS5R. Will keep you guys apprised as things come together, as I have a few options to try now. ezra |
