| Author | Message | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 896 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'm trying to figure out how to hook up my pedal board (A Furman SPB-8C) so I can use it with my Series II (and the associated power supply). Ditto for my Boss GT-10B. So far I've drawn a blank. Currently, my rig is: QSC-1804 Power Amp F1-X SF-2 Furman AR-1215 Voltage Regulator Korg DTR-1000 Rackmount Tuner DS-5R X2 Wireless System (Obviously not used with the Series II). Right now, I have the tuner in the effects loop of the F1-X. Any insights would be helpful. Thanks, Alan | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4667 Registered: 7-2004 |
Alan: I know it sounds obvious, but have you tried inserting the effects in the effects loop? Bill, tgo | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 897 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob - as I said, I've got the rack mount tuner in the effects loop. If I do that, I lose the tuner. Any other suggestions? | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4668 Registered: 7-2004 |
Alan: I don't know if Bob has any suggestions, but why don't you just hook up the effects out>tuner>pedal board>effects in, or, alternatively, effects out>pedal board>tuner>effects in? Bill, tgo | ||
| willgunn
Member Username: willgunn Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2007 |
Alan, I concur with Bill regarding the use of the F-1X's F/X loop as the patch points for your pedal board, including the SF-2 (i.e regard the SF-2 as just another effects component). Additionally, if you're inputting the F-1X via the DS-5R's front panel output, then you could input your DTR-1000 via the DS-5R's BACK panel output. And while you're at it, try using the F-1X's XLR Direct Output to drive your QSC power amp. Besides providing a balanced line-level output (never a bad thing), you'll instantly gain the use of the "pre/post EQ" switch as a usable (and handy) additional amp control. Still need a balanced output to go to a console? Just tap off of the unused channel INPUT on your QSC (either the XLR or the 1/4" TRS) - it's in parallel with the one actually being used as the power amp input. AND, if you use one of those on/off switchable XLR female plugs (Neutrik makes a nice one) coming off the F-1X's Direct Output, you'll have a very handy "mute" control as well...simultaneously killing the signal to both the amp & the "board". All of these things I currently do personally, so I know they work! | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 899 Registered: 11-2003 |
I guess where I'm having trouble is that the SPB-8C has a bunch of jacks that are confusing me a bit. It's a bit more straight forward with the GT-10B, but not with the Furman. Here's a link to the owner's manual for the SPB-8C so you guys can see what I'm referring to. http://www.furmansound.com/pdf/manuals/SPB-8C_manual.pdf. BTW, thanks for all the suggestions. I'll try a few today and see what happens. I didn't know, for example that you could connect the DS-5R from the front panel to the F1-X. I've been using the rear panel on the DS-5R to connect it to the F1-X ever since I got my Series II. Alan | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 900 Registered: 11-2003 |
One other thing - I biamp my F1-X. How does that impact the set up? Thanks, Alan | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 901 Registered: 11-2003 |
I've got the DS-5R hooked up on the front panel, and the tuner into the back panel, so that works (but for some reason, the mute via footswitch no longer works). My SF-2 is connected into the F1-X and QSC, with the outputs going to the amp, and inputs to the F1-X. The effects loop on the F1-X is now available for use. Just wanted to let everyone know. Alan P.S. Bill - I typed my initial response to your message on the iPad - damned auto-correct! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9926 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's one signal path based on what you've said you've got. DS-5R > F-1X > F-1X effects loop send > SF-2 > DTR-1000 > stompbox 1 > stompbox 2 (etc) > SPB-8C in from pedals mono > SPB-8C left mono out to amp > F-1X effects loop return | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4669 Registered: 7-2004 |
Well my iPad never called me "Bob". I guess I'll have to bring it back to the store and complain it's defective! lol Actually, the "auto-correct" is a PITA and perhaps the only booger I can pick with my iPad. (Yea, I know there must be a way to turn it off - I'll get around to it one of these days. At least I feel proud that I figured out how to make my Droid X phone stop saying "Droid" all the time.) Bill, tgo | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 902 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave - what input/output on the SF-2 do I use? Bob - my iPad hasn't called me Bob either. But it has called me Dave, as in "you can't do that, Dave.". (apologies to 2001: A Space Oddessy") ;-) Alan | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4670 Registered: 7-2004 |
Daisy, Daisy ....... | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 458 Registered: 5-2002 |
Alan - The reason this is complicated is that you're suffering from stereo/mono schizophrenia here. The Furman board is designed to take a mono or stereo input, route it to the stompboxes, and maintain independent stereo channels back to your (two) amps. This is really important if you've got a stereo chorusing device and want to maximize the effect at the amps. But from the general info you have here, you're mostly running a mono signal path. So, life will be easier if you ignore the upper row of patch points on the Furman pedalboard. So, I'd actually do something a little different. I think you want to go from bass->DS-5R, then take the DS-5R BASS/MONO OUT and put it into the IN of the tuner. You definitely want the tuner ahead of any effects (obviously, tuning will be messed up if you had a chorus!), and putting it here lets you use the mute footswitch for tuning as well. From the OUT of the tuner, go to the F-1X front panel INPUT. From the F-1X EFFECTS LOOP SEND, I'd go to the chain of pedals in your pedalboard. The end of this chain connects to the LEFT IN FROM PEDALS input on the SPB-8C. Connect the LEFT OUT TO AMP output to the SF-2's CHANNEL A INPUT on the back panel. I think you want to set the SF-2 to mono too. It's not completely clear how this guy works from the website description, but it looks like connecting on the A channel will give you the ability to blend the original signal with two filtered outputs. Take the CHANNEL A OUTPUT from the SF-2 to the EFFECTS LOOP RETURN on the F-1X. And finally, take the LOW-PASS and HIGH-BASS outputs of the F-1X to the appropriate amp inputs. I think this would work pretty well. The main option that you have is whether the SF-2 is before or after the pedal board. Unless you'd like to apply sound shaping before an effect, you'll probably find that after will work better just in terms of keeping your routing simpler. If you decide to go (even more) gear crazy, then of course you'd want to come out of the DS-5R in stereo to both of your F-1Xs, which would feed both channels of your pedal board, then come back and feed both the stereo bi-amps and speaker stacks... Hope this helps, David Fung | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9931 Registered: 5-2002 |
David's suggested signal path is a good choice too. However, I think David didn't have the SF-2 owner's manual in front of him when he wrote how he thought the connections should be made. On the back of the SF-2, flip the little switch to Mono mode. Use the Channel A input and the Channel B output. This effectively gives you a three channel mixer; the channel A input signal is split into three channels and then recombined at the channel B output. On the front panel you now have: - the master Input Gain level control (above the words "channel A") - the Channel A filter with it's Filter Gain, Frequency, Damping Ratio, and Filter Type - the dry signal whose level is controlled by the Direct Gain knob (above the words "channel B") - and the Channel B filter with it's Filter Gain, Frequency, Damping Ratio, and Filter Type. I have Channel A set as a low pass filter and Channel B set as a high pass filter. This lets me shape the low end of the curve and the high end of the curve, and mix that shaping with the dry signal. | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 459 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dave - The B out on the SF-2 sounds like the right way - thanks for the correction! I couldn't puzzle that out from the website product description. I have an F-2B, but no matter how many times I asked it how an SF-2 worked it just didn't say anything at all! I'm kind of curious about the internal overall gain jumper too... It's interesting that the SF-2 can operate both at instrument level and line level which are typically an order of magnitude difference in electrical level. If this block has effect when you're not using the front-panel instrument input, it seems like this should probably be set to the 0dB setting, especially if you were placing the SF-2 in front of or amid a chain of effects that expect instrument level. David Fung (Message edited by dfung60 on December 11, 2010) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9932 Registered: 5-2002 |
David; that's an interesting observation. In my rack, I'm not using front panel inputs (except for the DS-5R), and I don't know if there is a difference between the front panel and rear panel input. I do recall having to take care in placing it, and everything else, in my signal chain, and going through a lot of trial and error before getting to a place where everything seemed to work well together. The master gain on my SF-2 is set at 10. Back on October 24 of this year, I posted a description of my signal path here, my post #9763. Some of the settings have changed, as I tend to tweak my tone a lot, but my path is still the same. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 903 Registered: 11-2003 |
Guys - thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to try them all. My main concern is that I not lose the biamping feature that I use. Will advise. Alan | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9933 Registered: 5-2002 |
An instrument preamplifier with 1 MegOhm input impedance is provided with an input jack on the front panel. The instrument preamplifier is automatically connected thru 'normal' springs when no jack is inserted in the line level input on the rear panel. A jumper block inside the unit provides signal amplification of 0 dB, 10 dB, and 20 dB for the preamplifier circuit by selection of feedback resistors. The unit is set for 10 dB amplification when shipped from the factory. Ah! I see what you were getting at. I had forgotten that. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 904 Registered: 11-2003 |
Well, I tried what David suggested, and it doesn't work. Here's what I have right now: From the DS-5R: Front panel five pin connected to bass, mono (bass) selected. On the back panel, the bass (mono) out to the in of my tuner. From the Tuner: Output of the tuner to the input on the front of the F1-X. From the F1-X Send: F1-X send to the input on my Boss tremelo pedal on my board (last pedal in the chain). From the In From Pedals jack on the SPB-8C: connected to the output on my Digitech envelope filter on my board (first pedal in the chain). From the Left Out to Amp on the SPB-8C: connected to the SF-2 Channel A input on the back panel. From the Channel A output on the back of the SF-2: connected to effects loop return on the F1-X. Low Pass and High Pass outs on the F1-X connected to the appropriate inputs on the power amp. I've also tried using the Channel B output as Dave suggested. Still no joy. I'm about out of ideas and resigned to the fact that I can't use my pedal board with my Series II. Any other ideas? Thanks, Alan | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 905 Registered: 11-2003 |
OK, I've gotten it to work using the connections suggested by David/Dave. Now ... I get a horrible noise (white noise, maybe RF interference) when either the high pass on Channel 2 of the SF-2 is selected, or when the bright switch is engaged on the F1-X. The minute I deselect (turn off the bright switch, switch to band/low pass on the SF-2) the noise goes away. All of my cables are working, and they're of the best quality (Lava Cable Van Den Hul going from the F1-X to the amp, etc.). It's not the cables. Anyone have an idea what the problem might be? Thanks, Alan | ||
| pierreyves
Senior Member Username: pierreyves Post Number: 720 Registered: 11-2006 |
DS5-R mono output => F1-X input => F1-X send => pedal board input => pedalboard output => Lexicon input => lexicon output => return F1-X => mono output => input power amp; output clamped in parallel mode => output A => SWR Golath senior, output B Ampeg 610 HLF | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1466 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hi Alan, In some situations I like to just process the highs directly from the high frequency output of a crossover ; in your case the high out from F1-X. You could route just the highs through your pedal board. At times this is an interesting variation of spice for the sonic soup . I think their are many ways that you can use your SERIES II with this pedal board. I would just continue to experiment until you have found variations that appeal to you . Sonic Regards Wolf | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 906 Registered: 11-2003 |
I did some more tinkering. I tried switching which output jack on the back of the SF-2 I used going tot he effects return loop on the F1-X. When I used the Channel A out, the problem went away. I also lost the use of the SF-2. When I switched back to Channel B out on the SF-2, the SF-2 worked, but I got the noise again. BTW, when I use the treble knob on the F1-X, the same thing happens. Thoughts? Alan | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9935 Registered: 5-2002 |
What I would suggest here is unplugging everything and start building the chain one piece at a time. To start; go from the bass to the DS-5R, to the F-1X, to the power amp, to the speakers. Leave everything else out of the chain. If you are still getting noise with this basic chain, start replacing each cable, one at a time, in this basic setup. If no noise in the basic setup, start adding the other pieces one at a time until the noise returns. Let us know what you find. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 907 Registered: 11-2003 |
Pierre-Yves/Wolf, Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try them. But I'm still baffled as to why I've got the noise when I use the high pass/treble switches/treble knob. All of my cables are good, and I've tried the "in/out" drill with all the jacks on the SF-2 and F1-X. Nothing seems to get rid of the noise no matter what I do. Alan | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 908 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thanks, Dave, I'll give that a shot. BTW, Pierre-Yves, I really like your new bass - the ebony is beautiful - congratulations. Alan | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 460 Registered: 5-2002 |
Alan - When you get that screetch it's caused by electrical feedback. It's exactly the same thing that happens when a microphone feeds back except that it's happening between the effects boxes instead of through the air. There's too much treble gain when you have the high band boost going, whether on the SF-2 or F-1X. Part of the reason that this comes up is that devices like the SF-2 have a really wide frequency range. It's much wider than you will hear or use, but when you set the high band eq to "boost the highs", it's probably doing so happily and signficantly past 10KHz. The big boost in the inaudible treble may be overdriving something later in the signal path. The other problem here is that the input and output impedances may not be properly matched. When they're not matched correctly, some of the output signal will reflect back which can have weird effects on both devices. So, I'd debug this stepwise and report back. First, I would try just the pedal board in the effects loop, play with pedal settings and turn the F-1X treble boost to see if the problem is still there. Then, take the pedal board out of the effects loop and try the SF-2 there and see whether you're getting the screech. It may work with either, or you might identify the problem. I think it's much more likely that the pedalboard will be problematic. Traditionally, the effects loop level is much higher than instrument level which is one problem (it may make using a dynamic filter challenging). The other problem is that effects loops are designed with medium impedance, but stompboxes were designed for the higher impedance of the instrument inputs - that will trigger these sorts of feedback problems. One thing that should work would be to move the pedalboard even earlier in the signal chain. In this case, you'd go 1) bass to the DS-5R 2) DS-5R mono out to tuner in 3) tuner out to the first device in your pedal board 4) through the pedal chain 5) output from the last device in the pedal chain to the SPB-8C left pedal in 6) left output of SPB-8C to F-1X front panel in 7) SF-2 living in the F-1X effects loop 8) biamp outs to the amplifier in The SPB-8C isn't doing much in the signal chain (you could have went from the last pedal to the F-1X), but it is containing and powering the pedals which is a good thing. This would present the pedals with the normal environment that they expect to see, which should solve the feedback problem. Your terminology was a little funny a few posts back. You referred to the Boss trem pedal as being "the last in the chain". I think it must be the first in the signal chain, otherwise you probably wouldn't be hearing anything. The bass input is fed to the trem first, then from the trem to the envelope filter, right? This is just wording in a complicated setup! David Fung | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 909 Registered: 11-2003 |
OK, I've unplugged everything, and rebuilt the signal path, etc. When I use just the F1-X, everything is fine. There is something seriously wrong with the Channel B on my SF-2. Nothing I've tried (new cables, doing the "in/out" on the jacks and switches, etc.) has worked. I really don't want to send it back to Alembic for them to take a look at it if I don't have to. All I know is that when I hook it up as suggested, I get a horrible noise if I leave Channel B in high pass, or activate the treble switch on the F1-X. If I turn either one of those off, the noise goes away. Also, the noise gets bad if I turn the treble knob on the F1-X past the 7 position. I'm really at a loss here. All of my cables are good (I checked all of them). I've checked every cable on my pedal board (also good). I've checked all the power supplies (all good). Short of sending my SF-2 back (or finding a tech here who can help) I don't know what to do. Thoughts? Alan | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9937 Registered: 5-2002 |
Take one of your other basses and plug it in the front panel input on the SF-2, then run a cable from channel B output to QSC power amp. Leave the F-1X and everything else out of the chain. In this setup is the SF-2 still making noise? | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1150 Registered: 6-2002 |
Lots of good stuff in this thread, As David mentioned the both the SF-2 and F-1X are capable of produced crazy amounts of treble. I think Mica has mentioned somewhere that flat settings for the F-1X is 2-7-2 (bass,mids,treble) Have you A/B-ed the superfilter channels when it is set in stereo with identical setting on each channel? I currently run my Exploiter (mono) into my Morley wah > rack tuner > > F-1X > Low pass to SF chan. A > Highpass to SF chan. B >> SF outs (stereo) ...to Lexicon MX400 reverb >> MX400 outs to power amp (Low pass to 15" and High pass to a 12") So the SF-2 will work well after the F1-X as well,this way I can tune each cab a little with it's respective channel on the SF-2. BTW...Your doing a great job troubleshooting Alan, | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 910 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave - tried what you suggest - no noise. Elwood - yes. I ran the superfilter in stereo up until now, and it worked fine. Granted, I wasn't using my effects with it either (the tuner was in the effects loop, and that was it), but there you have it. And thanks for the props - I should be thanking you guys for all the help. I think using the setup David suggested is what's going to work for now. I'll continue to work with it and see what else I can do. I still can't explain why I'm getting that noise. I've turned the output down on all of my pedals, and it's still doing it, though David's suggested setup (with the pedalboard earlier in the signal path) seems to be what's working. More to follow. Alan | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9940 Registered: 5-2002 |
"No noise" Good. The SF-2 should be fine, and the issue is probably just getting everything in an order that will work well. Another issue I had when setting my rig up was getting all the different gains set to where nothing was overdriving anything else, which is what you seem to be addressing now. I think you're making good progress. | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1151 Registered: 6-2002 |
That is what I was thinking too, In some of my setups I've had to keep the Superfilter direct and filter gains very low (2-5) in order to be friendly with the next piece of gear ...then later in the chain I can add more gain . With the boost a SF-2 can provide I could see it overdriving some component in the F1-X , maybe even the tube, I forget where in the signal path with the loop that is. Happy hunting! | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 461 Registered: 5-2002 |
Alan - Good to hear that you're closer to a working setup. If the pedalboard behaves well when it's in front of the F-1X but not in the effects loop, then this is probably an impedance problem with the last floor effect in the chain (your envelope filter). You could try removing it from the chain and see if the other stuff lives in the loop or not. If this is a pedal problem, the way that you fix it is to put a buffer amp after it in the chain. This would be something like the simple amps that people use with piezo pickups - no EQ change and unity gain, but a high input impedance so your pedal will work right. The Alembic stuff is designed to be simple and have wide bandwidth, which can lead to problems when you're in the area above and below what you can hear. If the SF-2 had frequency response out to 100KHz, there's no way you can hear it, but because it's not limited, you might be asking your power amp to amplify a highly boosted signal that your speakers can't reproduce. You can fix these problems with filters that get rid of ultrasonic frequencies. Alembic could have built these in, but I think they opted for purity and simplicity of the design knowing that few people would have feedback problems. Ron's very sophisticated ELF-1 subwoofer controller was designed to optimize extreme low end response by creating an active boost that was very precisely tailored to the response of the speaker and cabinet. If I remember correctly, it had a settable subsonic filter that limited the bottom end response to save amps and speakers from extraneous subsonic stuff like handling noise. You guys may be too young to have played much vinyl, but back in the day of warped records and not much power, you could easily get weird periodic distortion effects when playing warped records with a good turntable. David Fung | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 911 Registered: 11-2003 |
David - I tried everything you said. Here are the results: F1-X only with the pedalboard in the loop - no problems. SF-2 in the loop, no pedalboard - no problems. Pedalboard earlier in the signal chain, SF-2 in the loop - still noise, but more manageable. I start to get noise when I turn the treble knob up towards 8 on the F1-X, but at least I can activate the high pass filter and treble switch on the F1-X now with no ill effects that I can notice. And you're right, I was giving you the wrong info on the pedals - the Boss trem is the first one, not the last ... my bad! Any further thoughts? Alan | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 912 Registered: 11-2003 |
David, I took the envelope filter out of the loop, and still had the same problems. What kind of "buffer amp" do I need to put into the chain and where? Thanks, Alan | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 463 Registered: 5-2002 |
Alan - A buffer amp is just a preamp IC, like the ones in your bass. The floor version will have power filtering and a box. There used to be a lot of cheap versions of these, typically used when you want to connect a raw piezo pickup to a regular guitar amp. These days, most guitars like this have the buffer amp built into the guitar itself. Because of that, instead of being a $20-30 box they're expensive. An example of the kind of thing I'm talking about would be the Radial Big Shot PB-1 which looks to cost about $140 or Dunlop/MXR Micro Amp for half that. If impedance was the problem, then you'd try this with the pedal board in the effects loop, then the buffer (set so there's no increase in output levfel), then the SF-2. But this may not be the problem. When you put the pedal board in front of the F-1X, it should be pretty much buffered already, but you're still getting squeal from the SF-2 in the loop. So, the problem may be too much treble gain. You might consider seeing whether Alembic might give you some guidance on a filter that would take out the extreme highs to get rid of these problems. If you lopped off highs about 10-20K before the effects send, you'd probably see improvement on the problem at very low cost. David Fung |
