| Author | Message | ||
| stoney
Advanced Member Username: stoney Post Number: 400 Registered: 7-2002 |
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4713&item=7326082431&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW just saw this post... | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 2461 Registered: 6-2000 |
That one is actually one of the first versions of the Vector body shape. Like all the designs, they change slightly over time as we can't seem to refrain from refining. Fingerboard looks like this was played a good bit. Coupld use a oiling to clean it up. Also, the frets look a little flat, probably crowned at least once. Still looks great for almost 20 years old. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 726 Registered: 7-2003 |
Cool. You don't see many of them at all... | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1821 Registered: 5-2002 |
The top wood is nice. I ran it through an editor to get a better look at the wood.  | ||
| waggaboy
Member Username: waggaboy Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2003 |
Somebody give that fingerboard a nice oil and clean!!! Poor thing has had a hard life and needs a good home... | ||
| pmoran
New Username: pmoran Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2004 |
i was the winning bidder. it's in absolutely excellent shape. hardly a scratch or ding. plays like a dream. really low action w/no fret buzz at all. frets are actually in good shape. fingerboard is dry so i'll do what mica suggested in an email to me and i'll buy pure lemon oil at a health food store and give it a good oiling. serial number is 86F3967. can mica or anyone else tell me more about this bass? before buying it, i knew nothing about persuaders. i was actually more interested in buying an old spoiler but was outbid for the one i wanted and bid on this as an alternative. wow, am i glad i did! this bass has incredible depth of sound and projection. it tears my epic 5 up! i can't come close to getting the sound from my epic that i can get w/just 2 controls on this bass. why is that? also, if anyone can tell me, how in the world does alembic get this kind of sound out of a bass that is so thin and light? amazing! i have 9 basses, some of which are in the 25 to 30 pound range, but none can match the power of this monster. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1904 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hi Patrick; congrats and welcome! That top is real nice! Without knowing anything about your Epic, I would guess that the different electronics setups account for some of the difference in sound. Your new bass uses a low pass filter for a tone control, whereas your Epic has separate bass and treble controls. And as for the sound, the Alembic pickups and electronics are a big part of it; plus the brass bridge, Maple neck, Mahogany body, and Maple top all add to the unique sound of your bass. | ||
| pmoran
New Username: pmoran Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2004 |
thanks for the info, dave. i've read hundreds of your posts in almost every column here. your depth of knowledge about alembics is truly amazing. i've got pedulla's, gibson's, fender's, warwick's, rickenbacker's, etc. the only thing that comes close to creating that indefinable sense of "pressure" that this persuader creates is my pedulla thunderbolt w/custom bartolini electronics. the previous owner of that bass replaced the standard pedulla electronics w/a top-of-the-line set of bartolini electronics (yes, i know it already had bartolini in it from the factory) and that little, light, tiny bass absolutely screams. i began playing 35 years ago on a gibson eb-o. man, do i wish i still had that bass. i see what they sell for now, although i'm sure they sound like crap. so, i've collected several gibsons which are made from mahogany, are heavy as an anvil, and have incredible sustain. however, they don't project like my pedulla thunderbolt and it doesn't come close to the, and again i use the term for want of a better one, "pressure" that this persuader creates. i thought it had something to do w/the age of the instrument. maybe something where the wood settles in, dries.........the windings on the pickups get a little rust on them and fuse creating a supermagnet effect. i don't know. maybe i've read too many articles about keith richard's guitar tech and how he goes around buying really old gibsons, trashing the guitar and gutting the electronics so keith can still get that "60's sound" out of new, better made custom guitars. maybe i think there is a constant analysis you can apply between modern guitars and violins made in cremona almost 500 years ago. am i thinking too hard? it's hard to believe, in other words, that alembic created a pickup/electonics package consisting of 2 p-style pickups, w/2 controls in '86 that outdoes a 94 epic 5 w/all the options. i've got both internal gains jammed to the max, because i play metal and really hard rock. i guess the epic just isn't suited to that style but i wanted the low B. the warwick infinity 5 i have is a complete custom job. all new aftermarket upgrade bartolini electronics, fretless and a new custom finish that's unbelievable to behold. even it outdoes the epic 5, which is disappointing to me because i know the alembic is a better bass all the way around. you can see it, feeeeeeel it, but i can't hear it! | ||
| dnburgess
Senior Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 417 Registered: 1-2003 |
Patrick, without detracting from the Epic, which has its own fans, you've got to remember the Epic is Alembic's entry level model (along with the Excel and Orion). Even though Alembic's entry models are better (and, to be fair, more expensive) than most manufacturers' top of the line, there is no question that each step up the range gives better definition and bottom end "weight". For your application I would strongly suggest a Rogue. David B. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 457 Registered: 11-2002 |
Many of us "think too hard" here, Patrick - welcome to the club. Out of curiosity, what strings do you use (on the epic, persuader, and pedulla)? And how do you have the controls set on your persuader? Maybe a few words about your rig would also be good. Might help us understand a little better what you mean by "pressure", so we can speculate more on why you do or don't get it. -Bob | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1905 Registered: 5-2002 |
Patrick; I don't think it's a "depth of knowledge", but excessive use of the Search feature! Something I know nothing about is violins. But I do seem to recall that an important factor in each violin's voice is the varnish. And I think it may be the case that one reason the Strads and other old violins sound so great compared to newer violins is that the ingredients used to make the varnish in the old days are no longer available. Or at least that's what I think I remember reading at some point. (Message edited by davehouck on June 12, 2005) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1906 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well, I ran a quick search and the first article I found debunks the varnish theory. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 495 Registered: 7-2004 |
Very interesting article, Dave. Thanks! Of course they never addressed the brass sustain block, neck-thru, or early Vienese low pass filter theories! (LOL). Bill, tgo | ||
| pmoran
New Username: pmoran Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2004 |
i guess what i'm trying to say about my persuader vs. all of my other basses, and i've got a bunch of them, is that my persuader seems to extend out of the speakers w/a power i can feel, not just hear, more than any other bass i have. next to my pedulla thunderbolt, which is a tiny little thing compared to my gibson rd artist which is about 15 yards long and weighs almost 30 pounds, my persuader is the thinnest, lightest bass i have ever owned. yet, 5 or 6 feet out from my speakers it's creating a discernable, moving the hairs on my arms, kind of wind! now, i've got a massive rig. 2 trace-elliot AH 500's, 2 2x12 cerwin-vega cabs, a peavey 18" black widow sub and an 18" behringer sub. some of my sound i'm pushing thru a behringer europower 1500, so it's a wonder i'm not sterile by now. come to think of it, maybe i am. anyway, i'm moving alot of air; however, w/all settings the same, and advancing thru my basses by switching out from the epic to a rick to a warwick to my thunderbird to the pedulla------------when i plug in the persuader, there's a throw to the sound that is astounding. i actually have to step farther from the speakers to hear it and the noticeable increase in air pressure and volume is amazing. i love this damn bass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| sfnic
Member Username: sfnic Post Number: 70 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dave - (hijacking another thread) I read the article you linked, and bounced it off my partner Matt. (He's the "acoustic" luthier of the team, I handle the "electrics".) He pinged back with some interesting info I thought I'd pass on: (GAL is the Guild of American Luthiers; ASIA is the Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans) -=-=- Nic - It *is* interesting. In the GAL and ASIA worlds, however, Nagyvary's theories are not considered particularly authoritative. There are a variety of excellent articles in the Red Books regarding Cremonese violins, violin graduation, violin voicing, and varnish, and one in particular comes to mind. It's about Stradivari violins, and makes the point that what we hear in a Strad is emphatically not what the builder created - Antonio Stradivari created *baroque* violins, which are *very, very* different from modern violins. Of the 700-odd Strads, all but one or two have been 'converted' to modern specs, which involves at least the following: - neck angle reset, generally involving a new neck (baroque necks are set very flat by modern standards, and the old scroll is grafted onto a new neck) - new modern-length ebony fingerboard (baroque fbs are very short by modern standards) - new bridge (due to neck-set change) - new tailpiece (cf above) That's about the minimum. Most of the rest have had the following repairs (which word I use loosely) done: - replacement of wood due to worms - regraduation of the top - doubling of the top (where the top is thinned to .5 to 1 mm and inlaid over a sheet of new spruce) - large crack fixes (one Strad in a red book article had over sixteen patches covering over seventy-five percent of the top) In fact, Strad 'cellos were originally a good bit larger than they are now. Many, many many Strad 'celli have been 'cut down' to the modern standard size, removing forever the living document of Stradivari's intentional means of building. And last, the varnish theory for Strad doesn't hold up, as described by a variety of the articles in the Red Book. For one, luthiers of the time didn't make their varnish any more than we do today (unless we're violin luthiers trying to duplicate an old master varnish). Typically, varnish was provided by an apothecary. The Red Books contain a variety of contemporary recipes documented from primary source material of the time; one of them which is relatively easy to make today is what finish chemist/luthier George Manno calls the "1704 violin varnish." It's a fairly straightforward spirit varnish - seedlac (e.g., dirty, dark shellac) with gum elemi and spike lavender oil added. That way, the shellac finish remains reasonably flexible, which is generally considered desirable for violins. That's one of two schools....and the beginning of a quasi-religious schism. Some finishers believe that the old masters used spirit varnishes. Some believe they used oil varnishes. Either way, it's not really possible to test - chemical analysis generally shows a thin film coating with various gums/mastics in the finish. Since shellac polymerizes after about a hundred years, it becomes largely indistinguishable from the catalytic scale film created by an oil varnish. So in truth, we'll never know. The two folks in GAL who discuss this in an entirely civil manner are George Manno and Geary Baese....if you search on either name, you'll get extensive hits regarding finish. Both have done a lot of work on pigmenting (Baese's articles on lake pigments are wonderful), violin ground (the finish beneath the finish, as it were) and the varnish. It's worth the time. One thing, however, that almost everyone in the GAL agrees on: Nagyvary is off base. If you ask some of the luthiers at Healdsburg (I'll introduce you), some of them will suggest he's smoking monkey crack. Others will suggest that Stradivari, a working luthier without a rich patrono, couldn't have afforded the varnish they contend he applied. And some will suggest that there's some crystallization going on between the ground and the varnish (which we've all seen - it's not dissimilar to nitro lacquer gold-haze). The cold tree thing bears some mention - if there was a little ice age (and there was) that affected the woods, then it would be reasonable to expect that Stradivari's topwood selections would show extremely tight grain (20+ rings/inch) and nearly unbelievable latitudinal stiffness. Typically, this is not the case - the wood has anywhere from 12-20 rings per inch, showing that Stradivari selected wood that he could get. Sometimes it came from the outer bits of the tree which would have had tighter grain, and sometimes not....like everyone else, he used what he could get. Matt -=-=- nic | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1909 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Nic, and please pass a thank you on to Matt. I had no idea that such substantial modifications had been done to Strads. This is quite a fascinating subject; and for me, Matt's report just makes the mystery of the Strad magic that much more mysterious and amazing! | ||
| sfnic
Member Username: sfnic Post Number: 72 Registered: 3-2005 |
Will do. :-) | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 458 Registered: 11-2002 |
Another thanks here, this is fascinating stuff - not quite enough to go off and research myself, but the summary is much appreciated. | ||
| pmoran
New Username: pmoran Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2004 |
i'm almost sorry i started this thread. i never believed the finish on my persuader had anything to do with the sound. i was and am still trying to find out if there is something about the age of my bass, wood-wise or otherwise including the over 20 year old pickups, than can account for the power this skinny, thin bass exhibits. both my epic and my persuader have identical strings, and the gain is maxed on each. so, w/all the controls the epic has, why does the persuader out-perform the epic across the board? in the day, as my son says, was the persuader that much more expensive and expansive, if i may, a bass than my epic is now? thoughts. | ||
| pmoran
New Username: pmoran Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2004 |
in other words, is an over 20 year old persuader that has been played, worn to a degree, still superior w/20 year old technology to a relatively new epic? that's what i'm asking. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1920 Registered: 5-2002 |
If you ordered a new 4 string Persuader today and a new 4 string Epic today, the Persuader would probably be more expensive. Whether the Persuader "technology" is superior to the Epic "technology" is a matter of personal preference. Basically, the technology hasn't changed that much. Your Persuader isn't too much different from a new Essence, except that the Essence has two pickups and a pan control. But to try to address your question, the higher cost models are all neck throughs like your Persuader, the lower cost models have set necks like your Epic, the higher cost models use a low pass filter like your Persuader, and the lower cost models use bass and treble controls like your Epic rather than a filter. There is nothing "old" about the electronics in a 1986 Alembic; most of us in this group would probably find them preferable to anything else produced currently. And the "technology" hasn't really changed much. The basses are pretty much crafted in the same manner as they always have been. And the basic idea behind the electronics is still the same. | ||
| effclef
Advanced Member Username: effclef Post Number: 346 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well I think Mica said the P-pickups are among the loudest Alembic ever made. Neck thru may make a difference, too. Does the Persuader have a brass sustain block under the adjustable bridge? The Epic controls are vol/pan/bass/treble so that is not the same as what is in your Persuader - the emphasis on certain frequencies may be "built in" to the Persuader. Have you tried raising the Epic pickups closer to the strings? Anyone in the Club have one of the dual-P-pickup Persuaders? How do those sound? I bet it's monstrous. EffClef | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 2536 Registered: 6-2000 |
Yes, the P pickups are the loudest ones we have made. The pickups are not identical through the years. We've tried a few different variations on the number of turns, and used the trim pot to adjust the gain. So it isn't terribly suprising that basses of different ages might have slightly different outputs. However, comparing the split style pickup to the MXY isn't really useful, they are constructed entirely differently, so they are practically guaranteed to sound different. Also, notice the pickup position varies between the two basses. The two basses you have are two completely different beasts. The most significant difference is the neck construction: set neck on the Epic, neck through on the Persuader. You should be able to hear this without even plugging the instruments in. The construction affects the vibration of the string, so you will hear this acoustically. You might want to measure from the nut to the 12th fret and double it to confirm the scale length. Most Persuaders were 32" medium scale, and this can also influence the sound compared to the 34" scale Epic. As a neck through bass, the Persuader would be a more expensive instrument than today's Epic. If you ordered a new Persuader (still available for special order), it would be nearly identical to the one you have presently. If you want to try an experiment, unplug the filter module from your Persuader and swap it with the bass and treble module in the Epic (it's easy - they are all on modular connectors). You'll have an open hole on the Epic, but you can see how the filter differs from the bass/treble controls. Likewise on the Persuader, you'll have to leave the cover off to access the extra control, but for the purpose of comparing, and learning how the instruments differ from eachother, I think it would be a useful excercise. Then just plug them back the way they were. Also, another thought to keep in mind is that a particular instrument may sound particularly good for no particular reason. I mean thay they always turn out excellent, but sometimes they turn out extra-good, and we can't explain why, and usually just guess it's the certain wood or wood combination that is influencing it so much. In any event, it sounds like you're really happy with the Persuader, so I hope you continue to enjoy it for years to come. | ||
| pmoran
New Username: pmoran Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2004 |
now that is exactly the kind of thread i had hoped for. took me awhile to figure out what i was reading and trying to interpolate it into what i was hearing when i played. these last few messages have been the answer to what i was trying, and not very adroitly, to ask. incredible technical info from the "pro's from dover." thanks. i'm not sure i'm brave enough to start disconnecting body parts,like dr. frankenstein, and transplanting them into other bodies but it's worth a try. to be honest, at 51, i need to get my bifocals redone before i attempt this. it's comforting to know that i'm not crazy when i can hear differences and can't explain them. it's even more comforting, as i had physically discovered, to know that the feel i get----the intonation i'm able to accomplish w/a tiny push of a fingertip---from my persuader is real and not imagined. so, that said, i'm on a quest on ebay for older model basses. i buy new ones, not alembics but others, and i find myself going back to the ones i've owned for many years. initially, when i play a new one, there's a rush. but as i explore them, w/their bartolini electronics upgrades and all, i still go back to the old guys. sitting in the corner. graying like me. they just have a sound, and unlike my kids and younger lawyers i practice with, i still want to hear them speak. and i want to hear older alembics sing. | ||
| pmoran
New Username: pmoran Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 |
sorry, forgot something for effclef. yes, i did move the epic pickups closer to the strings by adjusting the spring and set screws. i also adjusted the bridge to offset the pickup adjustment so there would be not contact between the pickups and strings. i used the measurements, and i used a ruler, to make sure the tolerances were as dave suggested in a thread link he provided to me. the persuader still blows the epic away. so, i'm going to the higher end basses; i'm not buying other brands anymore; i guess, after owning 9 other basses, that i'm going to begin pairing my collection down to my gibson rd artist----and i can't get rid of her because i bought her new directly from the store in 1978 and she's beautiful and still kills-----my ricks which are death when playing U2 and MrNorth and whatever older alembics i can afford. i figure 3 alembics, minus my epic which i will now sell, equals 20 other basses. right? | ||
| effclef
Advanced Member Username: effclef Post Number: 347 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well, Patrick - after you get new glasses, you might want to try the swap. They just plug and unplug - it's not like you have to unsolder things. Neck through, and a sustain block under the bridge, and ebony neck laminates all make a difference...should you go for the "ultimate." Are you using the same strings (top four anyway) between the two? As Mica said, the scale length on the Persuader is probably 32". Nut to 12th fret times two. I bet it all boils down to the response of the double-P pickup. I'd love to hear a Persuader with two of them! EffClef | ||
| pmoran
New Username: pmoran Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2004 |
oh, effclef, i forgot something. yes, my persuader has a bass sustain block under the bridge. i think, after all i've read, that the neck thru design and the pickups are the answer to what i've been trying to understand. i'm disappointed i bought my epic 5. i just never could get the sound out of it that i get from my thunderbird or my rd artist, and i know alot of people think gibson basses are crap, but i love my two. that thunderbird is absolutely a killer when playing zztop, for instance. here in texas it's not unusual to know people who have some of the reverend billy g's guitars. i have a friend who bought one of his 50's era melody makers used on the fandango album. i know dusty uses different basses, none of which i would care to own. i've read up on them, but i'm not impressed by what i read. but that thunderbird can hit the sound of his bass on the tres hombres album dead on. the epic just never gave me the sound i wanted. the persuader can be adjusted, w/just 2 controls, to fit the exact sound of everyone from t-rex "bang a gong" to the stones' "gimme shelter." i use a line 6 bass pod pro x w/my trace elliot heads. it just gives a great beginning sound before i begin tweaking w/the rackmount bass pod pro x. and let me tell you, very little tweaking has to be done. the persuader produces a wonderful sound. | ||
| effclef
Advanced Member Username: effclef Post Number: 348 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well the bottom line is, keep what you like and don't worry about parting with what you don't! People love the Epics - you could sell yours here on the Board and fund the neck-through you really want. This is the main reason Mica always suggests trying out an Alembic in person before buying one sight-unseen. It tells you so much about how it will feel and sound in your hands. On a side-note, I am really not a fan of the (Precision style) Vector body. I do like the Elan (Jazz style) body more. But that's why they make chocolate and vanilla, eh? EffClef |
