| Author | Message | ||
| effclef
New Username: effclef Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2004 |
Don't freak out, he's not trying to pass it off as real. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3701531807&category=2384 But still, the person "making" these should be strung up by some high-E strings. EffClef | ||
| alemboid
Junior Username: alemboid Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2003 |
HAAA!!!! That guitar is to an Alembic like a Pignose amp is to the Greatful Dead's Wall of Sound!!!! Passing that off as an Alembic is like selling cars with square wheels!!!! Where's this world heading? Bryant | ||
| u14steelgtr
New Username: u14steelgtr Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2003 |
To be fair effclef: This guitar is clearly not a "fake" of the Alembic instruments that we (on this list) know and love. Other than having 6 strings, the name "California Special", and some pickups this guitar has nothing in common with our Alembic and it makes no pretense otherwise. The construction is different, the shape is different, the logo is not even a logo, the name is done in an entirely different font style. If you can make someone smile then you have their attention. Given the conspicuous lack of similarity to our Alembic I think that the "Fake Alembic Sunburst electric guitar" heading is almost clever. It brought a smile to my face when I read it. More to the point. If the tuners are in good working order, the gig bag still has padding and a working zipper, the setup is marginal or better, and none of the threads on the bridge and nut-lock are damaged: then the $40 price should be a bargain for some kid that is just starting out. The Pignose versus Wall of Sound comparison is right on target! -- Eugene (Message edited by u14steelgtr on February 03, 2004) | ||
| effclef
New Username: effclef Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well, you have to consider the intent of the person who "made" it. Mica can recount many times where she has been alerted to Ebay auctions and other instances where a fake Alembic has shown up. In most cases, it's a $100 hunk-o-junk P bass copy which has had "Alembic Elan" and a made up serial number stencilled on the headstock. From what I remember of her postings, it is common for this person to make these fakes and hawk them to pawnshops in the southern USA, where the shopowner looks up "Alembic Elan" in a book and forks over much more than a junky P bass copy is worth. Mica asked one Ebay seller who didn't know what he had to take alcohol to the headstock so the next person wouldn't be duped. He complied, and the auction continued as a no-name bass. In another case, a person posted to the old Yahoo Alembic group that he bought an Alembic but "it didn't look like any of the pictures." Sad story is, he bought a fake, I believe for $300. Shame on him for not doing his research, but MORE shame on the person with the dry transfer lettering. In compensation, Mica offered to give this person $300 factory credit toward a real Alembic. I don't know how that story ended. I see the same thing here with this guitar. Sure, for a Strat style copy it may be perfectly playable and a bargain, but it's not an Alembic and -- not the Ebay seller who appears honest -- the original "creator" of this fake had no good intentions. It was meant to deceive. And most insidious: it is not meant to deceive (or bring a smile to) an Alembic aficionado - it's meant to dupe someone unfamiliar with Alembics. I hope, someday soon, Mica and the police can catch this person. I don't know if there is some sort of Pawn Brokers' Association magazine but if there is, Alembic should take out a small ad each month about this sort of thing. Anyway, I am not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, just point out that the motives of the person making these are not honorable. Meanwhile, if someone here snags it for a kid at $40 I am sure it will be of use. EffClef | ||
| u14steelgtr
New Username: u14steelgtr Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well EffClef; I would take this chat off-list if I knew your email address. My address is u14 at CLCC dot org. To begin with, I have little pity for Pawn Brokers in general. They should be willing to take that which they dish out. I have encountered some less than respectable Pawn Brokers over the years and sadly, those few have tainted my perception of that whole industry. I concur with you about people building for unscrupulously deceiving people. Your points are all valid. On the other side of that coin, I think that building to deceive is also an art form. For example, Wayne Henserson in southern Virginia (an exceptional Luthier BTW) has built a few F5 mandolins that are incredibly accurate reproductions of Loar-signed F5's right down to the aging of the label inside the sound hole. Of course, his name is written on the underside of the soundboard and it is my opinion that the shell he inlayed in to those instruments is a lot prettier than the shell on any of the "Genuine" Loar-signed F5's that I have had the opportunity to inspect or play. The distinction here is that his instruments are true reproductions (even the width-of, depth-of, and spacing-of the cuts in the kerfing are accurately reproduced) and not just cheap knock-offs that were carved with a gunstocking machine. His instruments were of the highest quality, they were very expensive, and they were extraordinary instruments in their own right. I am an aspiring luthier myself; when I start building instruments that I am proud of I will probably want to put my name of some of them. If I were to put my “Cole” name of my instruments, I doubt that anyone would confuse my instruments with those built by Martin Cole across the BIG pond in Cornwall. In all likelihood, my instruments will bear a closer resemblance to the instruments that Martin makes than the instrument on eBay resembles the Alembic guitars that we own and play. I am all in favor of taking action against those people that misrepresent their product. My point is that if some idiot chooses to pay a premium for something because of the name on it instead of because of its properties we should not blame the seller for that customers choice (as long as the item was not misrepresented). This reasoning has been one of the basic principles of trade throughout the world for the entirety of my life. A subset of both the fashion industry and the jewelry industry come to mind as textbook examples of this principle of trade. The names Gucci, Patek Philippe, Lexus (by Toyota), Rolex, Fender, Izod LeCoste (aka “MyGod TheCost”), Tiffany (the company not the designer and artist), and Victorias Secret (which is a premium label marketed by “The Limited”) all come flooding in to my mind as examples of businesses that charge a premium for any item they decide to put their manqué upon. Our Alembic makes a product that is distinguished by its superior properties. I have never felt that Alembic is a company that charges a premium simply because they put their manqué on something. I do say that they are a company tries to do everything first class all of the time. First class, all of the time sometimes means spending a bit more. Their 8-color screen printed t-shirt is colorful and looks great: 8-color screen-printing does not come cheap. So they charge $24 for a first class t-shirt. I recall from somewhere in the middle of my College days that one can not copyright a name, one can register a Trademark (e.g. a graphical form) and one can copyright a character based non-word (e.g. “C-O-L-E”). I am unsure what legal recourse that Mica or any agent of our Alembic would have if someone did track down the person that is assembling those guitars. With regard to having them being “strung up by some high-E strings”, I do hope that the Judiciary system would deem this an insufficient punishment. 8^D Regards -- Eugene | ||
| kipknee
Junior Username: kipknee Post Number: 48 Registered: 10-2002 |
"I recall from somewhere in the middle of my College days that one can not copyright a name, one can register a Trademark..." Depends on who unscrupulous the business is. Take a look at this website for an interesting story about how a trademark was abused. http://www.madmartian.com/legal/ It's long, but worth reading, especially the "Main points of interest" section. As a result of this, I no longer purchase or use Monster Cable products. | ||
| effclef
Junior Username: effclef Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2004 |
Hi, Eugene - thanks for the reply. Again, I wasn't trying to make an argument and it is clear that people will see both good and bad in what a stencilled on Alembic name means. When you say that (not surprisingly) you have little pity for a pawnbroker, well don't forget that the "Alembic" hanging in his shop will eventually find its way into someone else's hands. So shame on the broker for not doing his homework, but don't you think it's sad a customer might then be duped? As for beautiful REPRODUCTIONS of antiques, I am all for it, if (as you point out) there is some mark making it clear about the creator. But again, the point of having "Alembic" in dry transfer letters was simply to dupe someone completely ignorant of what an Alembic really is. The $30 street Rolex is the same idea - though I think Rolex is well known enough that everyone knows it's not a real one for that price. I see this guitar as similar to taking a three carat Cubic Zirconia ring and marking it as a three carat diamond ring. I also agree that I don't see the point of having a name brand just to have a name brand, where alternatives in fit and function may be identical. There it's a person's choice, and if status is more important than function, so be it! It is interesting, don't you think, that it wasn't until later that Alembic actually put their name on the logo of the instruments? When I first saw an Alembic, it was pre-name-badge days, and I had no clue what that funky symbol was. What is that? A tree? A mushroom???? Hmm!? Once you really look, and understand the meaning of the word "alembic," it's a neat logo. But logos don't always connect the name with the symbol. (Lucent's comes to mind....what is that, a coffee ring?) Anyway, I meant no offense to anyone, but I am glad at least that the construction of an Alembic can't be easily faked, even if rub on letters still sell. I am happy to see that the eBay seller does promote the fact that it's a fake, and I am also sure it will command an appropriately low price! EffClef | ||
| davehouck
Advanced Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 351 Registered: 5-2002 |
The thought just crossed my mind; should it be suggested to the seller that the decal be removed? (I'm speaking theoretically since he's already received bids.) | ||
| effclef
Junior Username: effclef Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2004 |
Dave - Mica has asked sellers to do this, in the past. I wonder if she is busy/out and that's why she hasn't chimed in to this thread. $69 - that's cheap for a Strat copy. I just noticed the seller is in TX, apparently close to where these fakes begin their lives. Does anyone recognize what brand this REALLY was originally? I'm not a guitar guy but it's definitely a weird layout - maybe a Hamer or something. EffClef | ||
| u14steelgtr
New Username: u14steelgtr Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2003 |
I too am curious about the manufacturing origin of this instrument. Looking at the back of the neck; both the lack of a trussrod rout on the back of the neck, and the headstock shaping makes me think low end Korea/Taiwan. Most all of the strat necks coming from parts places here in the U.S. rout the back of the neck for the truss rods. The 4-ply b/w/b/w binding around the top is unusual for an older low end Korea/Taiwan built neck. If the body has a PhotoFlame(R) top that would narrow the list of (licensed) manufacturers. BTW EffClef I took no offense. I think that the root of our difference of opinion comes down to 2 points. The first; is that this guitar is to me so obviously not by the Alembic of this List. The second; anyone that purchased guitar solely because of the name on it would in my opinion be both: trying to be be pretentious, and so ignorant of the disticntions between good and not-so-good instruments that they would not know why this guitar is inferior. Currently under $70... still at a bargain price. BTW do all of the "fake" Alembics have similar stenciling on the head stock, and similar body shapes. I am curious what the other "fakes" looked like. Regards -- Eugene | ||
| elzie
Advanced Member Username: elzie Post Number: 275 Registered: 8-2002 |
It looks like there is a truss rod adjustment cut out underneath the middle lock at the nut. Supersize the pic and you can see it. This is a bargain at $70 for someone just starting out. However, someone starting out does not have as much experience as many people at this board so I agree, whomever applied the Alembic letters should be ashamed. And you really can't blame someone who has heard of Alembic for not quite knowing what it isn't. After all, that's exactly what these people rely on. I also agree that the pawn broker should know better too. Somehow I don't belive the pawnbroker was duped though. After all, they can't stay in business by not knowing what is real and what is a fake, especially such a blatant fake, and this is not the only type of item they will see as a fake. Either way, this guitar is a bargain. And yes, they should remove the name. I am thinking of bidding just to have another six string to kick around and to remove the name myself.... Paul TGO | ||
| bigideas
New Username: bigideas Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2004 |
i remember seeing something when searching gbase.com about a company (i think from japan) that was called pan alembic (occasionally just using alembic). if i am remembering correctly they were producing funky tele and strat copies in the 60s or 70s. since i thought it was odd too be making cheap guitars under the almighty Alembic name i did a little exploring. not much out there but they did exist. anyway, this may actually be the original sticker from a legitimate company. but its still too bad if people get misled and the california special name goes too far. | ||
| dela217
Advanced Member Username: dela217 Post Number: 279 Registered: 6-2002 |
Pan was a company that was distributed by L.D. Heater. The same folks that distributed Alembic back in 1973 and 74 before Rothchild stepped in. A Pan/Alembic is a Pan instrument that was modified by Alembic on a production line basis. At least that is what the Pan brochure says that I am taking this from. The Pan/Alembic instruments featured Alembic ceramic magnet hot-rod modification and some Alembic shielding. There was also some Alembic low end boost and low end cut switches. So....a Pan was a Pan, and a Pan/Alembic was just a knockoff with some uprated electronics. Michael | ||
| effclef
Junior Username: effclef Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2004 |
Michael, that's some VERY interesting info on the Pan/Alembic history! I did not know that, but had seen PAs on eBay several times before. OK, here are three of the seller's pictures, supersized. I thought I'd upload them here so everyone can see what we're talking about. (Plus the seller will take them down after the auction.)    Now I think Elzie has hit the nail on the head - the person who would buy this (not the pawnbroker, but someone later in the chain) may or may not have heard about Alembic. Worse, he may have heard how good Alembics are, but have never seen one. Some of his friends may even say, "yeah, those are great, better snap that one up because it's a bargain!" Alembic (somewhere, either in this Club or in their main website) does caution people that real Alembics seldom sell for cheap unless the seller is very motivated. As to the lettering on the headstock, yes, the fake Elans I have seen discussed do have the same lettering. And oh look...now I see that the string tree is sunk right into the B in Alembic! Something tells me Ron would not do that....heh. It does look like there's a trussrod (single) rout at the front of the headstock, but it is hard to see. Heck, the bridge is better than a Fender bridge, too. And a locking nut. At <$100 it's a decent little axe but it sure isn't from Santa Rosa. I wonder if Alembic should buy things like these just to stick in their showroom - and on their WEBSITE - to show people what a fake one looks like. EffClef PS here is what a California Special should look like!  | ||
| bigideas
New Username: bigideas Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2004 |
and now i is educated in the ways of pan/alembic. i know subway guitars has a stockpile of activators they throw in basses with Bart eq's. hope nobody ever gets smart and throws alembic labels on those. here is a question, what other brands (other than pan) were actually hotrodded buy alembic on a production basis? | ||
| alembic76407
Advanced Member Username: alembic76407 Post Number: 247 Registered: 5-2002 |
The Andreas Shark Bass has Alembic Electronic and Alembic Pickups and an aluminum fret board,they are around $4000. it is a neat bass,and they don't try to pass it off as an Alembic, I got to play one last year but only through a small amp, I loved it, but not at that price. David T (TLO) | ||
| u14steelgtr
New Username: u14steelgtr Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2003 |
Now this is a fake!! Even the Logo looks similar! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3702744138 -- Eugene | ||
| dela217
Advanced Member Username: dela217 Post Number: 289 Registered: 6-2002 |
Unfortunately that logo is real and the bass is not. The Fernandez basses never came with Alembic logo's on them. The early Fernandez basses came with no logo at all. The later of the bunch had Fernandez on the headstock. I think someone lied to Alembic. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 1436 Registered: 6-2000 |
I wonder if that logo that was sold on ebay a while ago wound up there? | ||
| effclef
Member Username: effclef Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2004 |
Just checked the auction, and someone got the fake California Special for $98.99. EffClef | ||
| blazer
Junior Username: blazer Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2003 |
Okay, let me reveal the real identity of this fake alembic It's a late seventies Ibanez Roadster (not Roadstar) guitar with a re-shaped headstock. The Roadster was Ibanez answer to Fender after getting suid for copying their designs (The Artist was their Answer to Gibson) Roadsters are excellent buys for the money offering much better value than current similair priced models | ||
| adriaan
Intermediate Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 168 Registered: 6-2002 |
Not sure that the headstock was reshaped, as I've seen similar ones on copies under the Cimar brand, which I thought was just a different brand that Ibanez used from time to time. |
