| Author | Message | ||
| basstendencies
New Username: basstendencies Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2005 |
Hey guys. I've been lurking here at the board for some time now, but this is my first post and official hello. So, that said, I've gots me a question for you. I've had an idea in my head for a little bit now, and I was wondering if the fine folks at Alembic would build a 9 string bass? Adding to that, would you do a 36 fret fingerboard? | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2005 |
Welcome aboard! Oh I bet they could and would do it. It just takes money. They made an 8 string bass for Trip Wamsley that was one of the featured customs and you should look at that. It is called Ocean Blue. The 36 fret fingerboard would probably put the location of the neck pickup(s) closer to the bridge pickup(s) since that's another 12 pitches above standard. Since they do everything except make tuning keys and strap buttons they can make just about any component, probably even a 36 fret fingerboard. That would be a lot of bass. Again it just takes money and time. You can call them up and chat with them about it, the Alembic people are totally cool to work with. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2073 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hi Jonathan, and welcome! Here is the bass that John was talking about. | ||
| sfnic
Intermediate Member Username: sfnic Post Number: 115 Registered: 3-2005 |
36-fret board? Hmmm. Thinking out loud, here. Let's start with a 36" scale length, for the sake of arguement. That gives a fret spacing of .2676" between the 35th and 36th frets. Allowing another .1 or so for the fretwire, and you have a "landing zone" of about .17", or a smidge under 3/32" available for your finger. Now, I have fairly large hands, and appropriately wide fingertips and, having played a 28-fret 34" scale bass, I've worked down to about .40 spacing (.30 landing zone). I doubt I could _accurately_ fret much below that; maybe to a .28 LZ. Even allowing for thinner fingers, though, I'd tend to think a practical limit would be about .22". Anything narrower than that, and you run the "risk" of playing only the fret tops, without enough LZ behind to fret cleanly. What I ran into on the 28-fret neck was that unless I was very careful (and pressed a bit harder than normal), I ended up choking the note because of damping the string against the fret behind my target. Also, as John (jetbass) noted, there's not a hell of a lot of room left over for pickups. Only 4.5", before allowing for the trussrod cover. That takes up another 1.5" or so, leaving only 3" free. The "offset pair" pickup configuration on the 8-string Dave linked to is needed to get the width, but you'd only have room for a single offset set, rather than two. It might be worthwhile to see if Alembic can produce a wide-frame FatBoy: it'd be a shame to waste some of the bass response available from the strings and scale length by running pups with too narrow an aperature... So the tradeoff for a 36-fret board are a last half-octave that's progressively harder to play cleanly, and less versatility in tone capabilities from the electronics. You'd also probably need to have the filter breakpoints changed from the standard 6KHz to accomodate the higher notes the instrument can produce. The lower breakpoint might have to be changed as well, which starts forcing changes in the overall filter design and some expensive component values. So, it wouldn't be cheap, and it'd be hard to play, and while it'd sound fantastic, it wouldn't be as versatile tonally as a 24-fret bass would allow, but it could certainly be done. All that said, it raises the question: why 36 frets? I'm not trying to talk you out of it; I'd be fascinated to see such an instrument come together. :-) nic | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2074 Registered: 5-2002 |
A quick search of the net shows that there are shops producing 36 fret basses; and there are some interesting pictures to look at. While reading Nic's post, one advantage I thought of was that it makes it a lot easier to find the harmonics. For instance in one technique for plucking harmonics, if you are fretting an E on the 21st fret of the G string, you place your right thumb on the string half way between the fretted note and the bridge and pluck behind your thumb with your finger producing a harmonic. With the additional frets, instead of guessing where halfway would be, you place your thumb on the string above the 33rd fret. However, I'm guessing that most players who order these intruments aren't getting them just to make playing harmonics easier <g>! | ||
| sfnic
Intermediate Member Username: sfnic Post Number: 118 Registered: 3-2005 |
Now, THERE'S an idea: a 36-fret board length, but only fretted to 24, followed by a "lined fretless" section down to the end of the board. (And, with the right pups, a fretless "36-fret" board would be awesome.) Thankls for checking that, Dave. I think it's one of those prejudices I've had over the years: literally pre-deciding that something wouldn't work (for me) and then rationalizing that it shouldn't work for others. I _still_ question the usefulness of frets that close together, but clearly _somebody_ buys them. Now to try to figure out where to find a 36" set of strings for a 9-string... | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2076 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hee hee!! I like it!! 24 frets and an additional 12 lined fretless! | ||
| bigideas
Junior Username: bigideas Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2004 |
Mr. Baudin, where are you? speak up. this is your area of expertise. Conklin seems to be crazy enough to do anything (they have a few 36 fret 9 strings) and JP basses is building a multi-scale 12 and a parallel fret 10. oh yeah, and a headless, fretless 8 string with piezo only (and midi.) i'm sure Alembic could easily compete with that insanity. | ||
| basstendencies
New Username: basstendencies Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2005 |
Ha, wow, I didn't expect this much of a response. Thanks guys. I'm a huge fan of Jean Baudin, I've conversed with him lightly via emails. He's really an inspiration to me. I'm looking into Conklin for this project as well, simply because I know that it's something they can do. I've already had some minor conversation about balance and comfort with Bill Conklin. | ||
| jacko
Advanced Member Username: jacko Post Number: 250 Registered: 10-2002 |
nice site matthew, lots of eye candy. jean looks to have a very tasty 6 string fretless epic although he's changed the pickups. One thing I'd be interested in knowing is what benefit having fanned frets gives. Graeme | ||
| trekster
Junior Username: trekster Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2004 |
Just a FYI... Harry Fleishman did 36-fret basses (the Steinberger-style Basic IV)all the way back in 1984, with two pickups -- a Jazz bridge pickup and a piezo-transducer within the bridge itself. I'd post a picture, but the one I had I sold on bunnybass.com, and to see it in the archive you have to become a member (pzzt). --T | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 538 Registered: 7-2004 |
Trekster: As a brief aside, should we offer you condolences on the passing of James "Scotty" Doohan? In his honor, I'm thinking about ordering my next Alembic with dilithium crystals. Bill, tgo | ||
| basstendencies
New Username: basstendencies Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2005 |
Taken from the Novax Website: The "fanning" of the frets results from manipulating the scale length of the bass side of the neck relative to the treble side: the fret spacing is wider for the long scale and closer for the short scale. Looking inside a grand piano, or at a harp, we see that the string lengths vary with the pitches of the strings. But fretted instruments are traditionally constructed to a single scale length, negating the benefits of scale length relative to pitch. Since there are relatively few strings on most stringed instruments, compromises are made and string gauges are manipulated for workable results. Players, accustomed to the compromises of single scale-length construction, are often pleasantly surprised by the richness and clarity of Fanned-FretŪ instruments. When the fanned-fret concept is applied to the six-string guitar, the resulting instrument has a "focused" sound - clear, articulate and balanced. Some players say "more in tune" or "more accurate." One of the real advantages of the Fanned-FretŪ concept lies in its application to instruments like the seven-string guitar, eight-string guitar, five-string bass, six-string bass, baritone guitar, and mandolin. The range of tunings and number of strings force compromises that make these instruments poor performers or even impractical when constructed with the traditional single scale-length. The fanned-fret concept addresses those problems and makes these intruments playable and practical. Also, Jean didn't change the pickups on his Alembic. He bought it just before a show when he broke the headstock off his 5 string, and it came with the EMGs. The previous owner must have changed them. | ||
| trekster
Junior Username: trekster Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2004 |
Bill: Jimmy's death was not unexpected..but sad nevertheless. And having his ashes blasted into space? Awesome. --T | ||
| jacko
Advanced Member Username: jacko Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks for the info Jonathon. I guess having a longer scale length on the low B would tighten it up alot. graeme | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 2600 Registered: 6-2000 |
In addition to Trip's, we built this other 8-string with 31 frets (some only for the upper strings). At least you can see where things start falling with a 35 inch scale length. Conversing with Susan by email is usually the best way to go about uncharted custom-land. | ||
| sfnic
Intermediate Member Username: sfnic Post Number: 119 Registered: 3-2005 |
I've spoken with Ralph Novak about the fan fret system, and have played a few of his basses. As strange as they look, they _play_ exceptionally well. The main thing you notice initially is that the lateral stress on your wrist disappears, as you move up and down the neck. Normally, as you move towards the peghead, your wrist opens up towards the thumb (usually compensated for by moving the elbow forward). As you move towards the bridge, the wrist closes, rotating the hand away from the neck. Fanning the frets reduces both wrist motions, and allows you to maintain a more consistant "grip" at all neck positions. Very comfortable to play. The next thing you notice is the better sound you naturally get on the E (and lower) strings, due to the longer scale length. That part's common to any properly made extended-scale length bass. What's less common is that the G (and higher) strings don't get floppy, as they do on 36" scale basses. And Ralph is quite generous in his licensing on the patent; Mica has mentioned in the past that it's totally within Alembic's capabilities. | ||
| bigideas
Junior Username: bigideas Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2004 |
now we're talking | ||
| jetbass79
Member Username: jetbass79 Post Number: 77 Registered: 2-2005 |
Why not just build an aircraft carrier with strings on it and play it? I will make do with four strings... | ||
| byoung
Intermediate Member Username: byoung Post Number: 113 Registered: 12-2004 |
Variety is the spice of life. Just so long as nobody says, "But Jaco only needed four strings!" nobody'll get hurt. Brad | ||
| george_wright
Junior Username: george_wright Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2005 |
John said:
This brought back my lost youth! Aircraft carriers do have strings, and these days they're all four-stringers. The arresting cables are pretty heavy gauge though! (From a guy who once car-qualled in the F8 Crusader.) | ||
| byoung
Intermediate Member Username: byoung Post Number: 117 Registered: 12-2004 |
George, My understanding is that the new carrier, The USS Ronald Reagan, has one less arresting wire. What I hear is that it allows faster recovery, and they can apparently launch planes and land them concurrently. I just saw the Reagan in San Diego. Pretty cool. I also saw the '70s-era Soviet diesel-electric submarine that they have moored in the maritime museum (next to the ship that they filmed "Master and Commander" on). That submarine looked like it was held together with duct tape and baling wire, and welded up by a blind man with a bad case of the shakes. Gruesome. It made me think that the Soviets never stood a chance. Of course, the same thing was basically proven during Desert Storm-- Soviet equipment and tactics didn't last long against us (us=US Army: I'm a Desert Storm vet). This was somewhat suprising to many (e.g. my unit was expected to take 70-80% casualties, but the only two I know of were a guy that accidentally jumped on a mine, and an idiot that threw a grenade into a corrugated metal building (expecting the 22 gauge metal to protect him-- doh!)). Just call me Mr. Tangent. Brad | ||
| the_8_string_king
New Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 |
I recently enjoyed my 5th anniversery with my 8 string 31 fret bocate Europa, and it's gotton even better sounding with time. I see they already gave you info on it, and I can tell you it's indescribably awesome. There is no doubt in my mind that they can do an awesome 9 string with 36 frets for you, should you desire. I considered up to a 10 string with 40 frets for my project, but decided to stick with my original concept of 8 strings with 31 frets -which has the same range as a 7 string with 36 frets. If you DO decide to commission such a bass, I STRONGLY recommend (aside from thinking EVERYTHING through very thoroughly and carefully in great detail) that you consider getting ebony laminates in the neck... they contribute to an utterly earth-shaking sound that can't be matched by anything else. Other Alembic owners with ebony laminates will back me up on this. My custom "8 strings of power" -featured custom, June '99- has an awesome 13 piece neck. The outer laminates are flame maple (and also the same pieces of wood as the body itself, a really cool and striking feature) and there are two pieces of rock maple, and then between these 4 maple lams are 3 purpleheart lams sandwiched between 3 pairs of ebony laminates. This produces a tone and sustain that has to be heard to be believed, and which is the most awesome bass sound I've ever heard. I lean towards thinking that only another Alembic with similar laminate choices could rival it. I recommend doing some research and strongly considering this when the time comes... You wouldn't regret it! Good luck with your project! And of course, I give this bass and Alembic the highest possible recommendation! It really doesn't get any better. P.S. also think about whether or not you want 2 pickups... a large part of why I elected to go with the 8 with 31 frets instead of with the 7 with 36, was that, after seeing one of Conklins' "Sidewinders", it became clear that it would be challenging to pointless to have 2 pickups with 36 frets, as -if they COULD fit, they'd be right next to each other and would probably have little difference. I had them give me 26 full frets and then 5 more partial frets on the high strings (which work great) so that the neck pickup is just "pushed" out of the way a little on the treble side, causing it to be slanted. It has a great sound, and both pickups have essentially the normal bridge and neck pickup sounds. If you go through with 36 frets, you'd likely have to or want to sacrifice one of your pickups. Maybe you're okay with this, and maybe you're not. Again, good luck, hope to see your custom featured as their first 9 string!!! | ||
| the_8_string_king
New Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2005 |
One other thing. Some of the other posters here made comments about the fret sizes and their usability. My 31 fret bocate Europa is completely playable. I rarely use the frets above the 26th fret hi C on my high b flat string (which is an octave higher than the 24th fret high C on a standard 6-string, but when I choose to, they're all completely playable... I have no problem cleaning fretting and sounding the notes, all the way up to my 31st fret (althought the upper notes are a little tricky to access... I knew this going in, and Alembic offered/suggested maybe giving me extra cutaway, but I wanted to stick to the standard Europa shape). My bass has a 35 inch scale, by the way. Also, ALL of the strings sound great. There are no issues whatsoever with any high strings sounding/feeling floppy or anything. The execution/acheivement of the design was flawless, and works perfectly in every way. |
