| Author | Message | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 539 Registered: 5-2002 |
Since our group here has members from around the world, I thought I would ask about a thought that occurs to me from time to time. Forgive me if this seems completely off-base. Let me try to set up the question. For only the purpose of asking this question, I'm positing two types of audience; those who appreciate the musicianship and those who don't. For example, in the US in the sixties many fans of the Beatles were impressed by their musicianship, while many others loved them because they thought the guys looked cute. In the late forties, again in the US, many fans loved Bebop because of the incredible musicianship of players like Parker and Gillespie; while many others turned away from this trend because they couldn't dance to it. Another example, many fans of Phish go to the concerts because of the musicianship, not because they put on an entertaining show; while many fans of Kiss go to the shows purely because of the entertainment of makeup, blood spitting, strutting and jumping around the stage, adrenalin pumping volume, lights and lasers, etc. (Please forgive me, Kiss fans; I know that there are Kiss fans who for instance appreciate Ace Frehley's guitar work, I'm just making generalizations here.) Various observations have suggested to me that today, as a generalization, people living in Europe, and perhaps Japan, have a greater appreciation of musicianship than people living in the US. An example of why this might be the case is that great jazz players seem to tour Europe and Japan more than they tour the US, even if they live in the US. So do you agree or disagree with this generalization; or have any comment at all? I know I'm opening myself to all kinds of questions about my characterizations of musicianship; and that I should probably delete this before hitting the Post button. But, does it seem to be the case that the best musicians prefer playing in Europe; and do they do so because the audiences are more appreciative and supportive? | ||
| bsee
Member Username: bsee Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2004 |
One of my favorite bands has more of a stage show than Kiss ever did, and they were th emost popular in Japan. It's hard to generalize anything while retaining legitimacy. By the way, check out The Big Nazo Band if you've never heard of them before. Killer musicians and a very fun show when they're around. www.bignazo.com | ||
| keavin
Advanced Member Username: keavin Post Number: 358 Registered: 12-2002 |
i'm with you dave i love the musicianship more than looks,however also modern late music alot of it is sampled or remakes where there not many artists writing as much as they used too,example hip hop,is 90%someone elses stuff,(sampled)and alot of rock is written by these new rockers,(but some sampled)what i like about rock is you will see a BAND on stage just like you did in the day more than you will see two turn tables,so i a big fan of artists performing with instruments,also im a jazz musician and a contemporary writer,and grew up in the 60s on motown,so im glad i was around when real music was being made | ||
| bracheen
Senior Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 440 Registered: 11-2003 |
Interesting question Dave. Would you believe that a musician in a club on night walked up to my wife and myself on his break and thanked us for paying attention during the set? He said that he gets frustrated playing his best and people are just milling around, talking, laughing, or whatever. He might as well have been a radio. The club is in the US, the musician was from Belfast. Sam | ||
| smokin_dave
Intermediate Member Username: smokin_dave Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2002 |
I myself am looking forward to playing in Europe sometime this year and I see it all over around here.Good musicians from the area flying over sea's to a much more appreciative audience is common place.I know a singer from around here who fly's to Italy and sells out all of his shows months in advance and has to almost beg to get gigs here.And is woefully underpaid when he does.The late,great Luther Allison moved to Paris and was treated like a king/star which made him a lot more noticeable when he moved back to the states before his early demise.It is real nice and rare when somebody comes up to you and thanks you for playing for them and it's to those people I play for every night.Odd to see it work the other way around Sam.Most nights I feel like a part of a juke box and nothing more.I have friends who toured Europe and during they're time off between gigs,they would set up in a little club in say,Germany and play Blues and Rockabilly just for the reaction.Thats what I am looking forward to the most.Seeing the kids shake it up. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1342 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well ... I am in bar-dwelling-type op bands and let me tell you that "attention" is a thing you can interpret. For example: last saturday gig in "the Stapleton" in Leuven. A part of the audience just listening and enjoying the music. A part enjoying the company they are with. The fact that there is a band playing adds to their "good-feeling-together" (ok they have to talk louder to each other because we are playing but ...well ...I am not Brother David TLO yet LOL). You have the real "partying" people! We had: - 8 teams from 6 countries rugby-players making fun - 1 dude celebrating his last weekend as a bachelor and the whole gang was dressed up as a scott WITH a kilt WITHOUT underpants. Dancing ... with Irish girls management assistants celebrating a birthday .... and in the saem time there were 4 (FOUR) bassplayers (I SUSPECT them to be a bassplayer) staring at me, Bonnie and Tweak Peaks ...man ...really "eating my fingers-on-the-neck" with their eyes. It all happens together. Paul TBO | ||
| bracheen
Senior Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 442 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wow! The Stapleton sounds like a great place. | ||
| hollis
Intermediate Member Username: hollis Post Number: 197 Registered: 11-2003 |
Paul, I hope the Scott kept his spinning down to a slow twirl! (LOL) Dave, I'm glad you brought up this subject,subjective though it may be.... I have often thought about this very thing. I think that one of the main reasons for the difference is possibly the music industry itself.... It seems to me that much of the music promoted today has very little to do with music (although many of the studio players are highly qualified). It feels to me like the visual impact is at least as important to today's promoters as the musicianship. Maybe musicianship is the wrong word....Maybe content is what seems to be slipping to the back burners. It's all very elusive, and somewhat sad to see. Of course, as you said, this has been the case for quite some time....Remember Beatle wigs? Beatle Boots? And yet, the content of the music seemed paramount.... It's my guess that whenever large amounts of money enter the equation, all bets are off.... I very rarely play for pay anymore, although there was a time in my life when I made a relatively comfortable living at it..... I'm sure there is a way to make a living playing and still maintain your artistic character, I just couldn't find it..... Play? Oh yeah!! I play daily for several hours and I will as long as my fingers allow. When I play in public, not much has changed over the years ... Some folks come to listen, some come to dance, others come to get drunk or high and/or get laid.....on occasion, some good folks come to join in... I almost always enjoy the experience. Here's to the hope that other's are enjoying themselves at least half as much as I. (Message edited by hollis on May 12, 2004) | ||
| 811952
Intermediate Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 175 Registered: 10-2003 |
My experience playing jazz/fusion in front of European audiences was that they were stone silent until the last note, then applauded if they liked the music. If we did a tune they didn't like, then the stone silence continued until we played something they liked. YES audiences of old used to be much the same; staying totally silent until the last note. I also remember hearing a King Crimson bootleg recording from a high school gymnasium or something in the mid-80s where someone in the crowd yelled for them to turn-up, and Fripp suggested the crowd simply turn-down instead. I find that when I play jazz state-side anymore, often the audience expects to be wowed without having their conversation interrupted unless it's a hard-core jazzophile venue. Whatever the case, like Hollis, I always have a good time. And I'm old and treacherous enough of a player that even the the most acrid musician-critics usually seem to appreciate or even enjoy most of what they hear. It really helps that I usually play with a rock-solid and tasteful drummer (my favorite drummer of all time, in fact).. John the Old and Treacherous One | ||
| alembic76407
Advanced Member Username: alembic76407 Post Number: 293 Registered: 5-2002 |
Brother Paul, LOUD is more than volume, keep trying, you'll get there!!! David T (THE LOUD ONE) | ||
| dannobasso
Junior Username: dannobasso Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2004 |
I believe people experience what they want or need to out of a "night out". I love fusion and good jazz. (by good I mean that the artist is actually creating with melodic content as well as technique not just flogging us with notes, cause' if I want to hear every scale that someone knows I can just hang around a college practice room and skip the 2 drink minimum per set). But even I get overloaded some times. There were times when I went and just got to release a lot of emotion and energy. Now I prefer to give the energy when I play live. For some, it's a way to bond socially with their peers. Remeber when it was a badge of honor to wear a concert shirt the next day at school? Dude! Where were your seats? Other use the music as a background to the other pursuits of the evening. (dating etc.) Many a lady has suffered for their man by going to a Gong concert. Flying teapot, don't need a taxi! There are some genres that I can't stand but I can appreciate if they are performed well. Music as art, as therapy, as soundtrack or as inspiration can fit in wherever you need it. I confess that I rarely go to shows unless I fell like I want to get my musical butt kicked by world class player. Gearheads always check out the racks and rigs and compare notes.(always do that!) I will say that I have progressed beyond standing around with my arms folded with that "go ahead impress me" look on my mug. But wherever you go for what ever reason, pleas bring your earplugs so you can hear well into your twilight years. PSA # 225 Danno | ||
| gbarchus
Member Username: gbarchus Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2002 |
I spent the last six years in Japan playing western pop music (all styles). Audiences really appreciated live music. I actually earned quite a bit of money "busking" on the street. Now I'm in the "live music capital of the world" and if you're not famous, audiences can ignore you. Gale | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 549 Registered: 5-2002 |
This was an interesting discussion with a variety of responses. Thanks! | ||
| alemboid
Member Username: alemboid Post Number: 63 Registered: 5-2003 |
Dave, Thank you for bringing this up. I apologise in advance for mentioning specific names, but here goes: "Popular" music from the 40's through the 70's and into the mid eighties largely was creative, where live performances were done by the band alone. Since then, much of what is pushed onto the listening audience as the thing to "buy and enjoy" is not much more than a cabaret, thanks to Janet Jackson, Britney Spears and others that rely on stage dancers to entertain. The amount of actual talent varies by act. Sadly, it has been said that if it was about talent, we wouldn't know who Britney Spears is. Gino Vanelli at one time performed concerts with a live drummer, one guitarist and an Apple computer. The age of computers, specifically sampling and artificially generated sounds affected the music industry too. How many bassists and drummers lost work to a machine? The New York jingle industry has collapsed as a result of this. Now, its just one person with Pro Tools selling a product for less and cutting out actual instrumentalists with their Korg Triton keyboard. Cookie cutter bands like Sum 41, Blink 182 and the like (being that they follow very similar forms and sound much alike) stir an audience to a frenzy with their volume and behaviour, not necessarily their musicianship. A friend, that happens to be Vice President of A&R at a major recording label laments that there are no guitar solos in this "new" music because the guitarists can't play them. I was at a performance featuring pianist Bob James, who had to stop mid-song because the audience talking volume was too loud (in the U.S.) Sadly, in the U.S., many people consider being a "Musician" as being "Broke", simply because Arts programs have failed here and since the radio plays for free, shouldn't the musicians that perform the music? That attitude makes me ill. Many musicians study their craft for many years longer than an Attorney for example, yet one is looked upon with esteem more than the other, simply because of the income more likely gained by the practice of law. Yet, the musician is the doctor, psychologist, mother, brother and lover that gets these audiences through good times, hard times, traffic, celebrations, worship, funerals and video games. In conclusion, I believe through my own experience that lands outside the U.S. have a better appreciation for musicianship. The U.S. suffers because of the dumbing down of audiences as led by the media and industry, and as a result, people are starving for content and quality. That is why Alicia Keys and Norah Jones do so well- quality musicianship/ songwriting & performance- and hey! No background dancers! My 49 cents, Bryant | ||
| dnburgess
Advanced Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 262 Registered: 1-2003 |
Another factor could be the "reverse not invented here" syndrome. That is, the tendency in every country to appreciate "foreign" artists more than local artists. The US is both the largest manufacturer of content and the largest domestic market. Therefore, US artists collectively benefit most from foreign appreciation as well as suffer most from local indifference. I wonder whether some of our European brothers and sisters could tell us whether artists from their home countries feel better appreciated abroad? David B. | ||
| wideload
Junior Username: wideload Post Number: 30 Registered: 6-2003 |
Bryant- I had a "Bob James" experience at a James Taylor concert last year. Great seats (3rd row just off center at Shoreline). The couple behind us talked and talked and talked. Finally, as they started gabbing during the third song, I tapped the lady and asked "Are these musicians bothering you, because I can ask them to turn down if you want." Her escort looked at me, but I present a fairly imposing figure, so they shut up. I got thanks from strangers up and down the row. They ended up leaving after the intermission. I am amazed at selfishness and lack of respect like this. If they did that to my band, I could be more understanding (although it would have been a fairly loud conversation!) because we're nobody. James Taylor has earned our attention at his shows. By the way, the only dancing was a little by the backup singers and Grey Lou (he's no longer blue) Marini! | ||
| alemboid
Member Username: alemboid Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2003 |
"...are those musicians bothering you..." Absolutely beautiful! Regardless of the band, famous or not, when they are performing, they are revealing their soul, and that deserves utmost respect. I agree, "imported" entertainment, whether from overseas or from across the country seems to get the benefit of the doubt of being "interesting", save for local favorites. In the end, with exceptions, the U.S. audience is a tougher crowd- not because they expect so much more talent, but because in this "on demand" society where we get what we want instantly with the push of a button, if the art performed is lacking somehow, people turn it off in their heads and talk, not considering how others feel. Think of it like Attention Deficit Disorder, induced by commercialism, greed and the industry. It seems patience, courtesy and respect are hard to come by these days. For what its worth, I think things are starting to change for the better- the pendulum has swung past its apex and the masses are waking. Thus the resurgence of 70's bands like Heart, Fleetwood Mac, Jackson Browne, Donna Summers, Chicago, Kansas and others. Their demographic has been long ignored, and things are changing. I really appreciate all that has been written in this thread. Alembicians are deep people! Bryant | ||
| thebass
Intermediate Member Username: thebass Post Number: 135 Registered: 3-2003 |
Living and born in Germany I just want to chime in to (belgian) brother Paul: the european audience is somewhat diverse. You'll find the party chicks getting mad on the music no matter what it is as long as the musicians wear the cool stuff, the singer looks cute has a nice a**. On the same venue you'll see the never smiling guys with black shirts, standing next to the soundman: beware, this is the musicians art police. After the gig they mount themselves on the stage to tell you where you were missing a note and what you should improve. In between these two extremes you'll find any variation depending on the location were you play. | ||
| alemboid
Member Username: alemboid Post Number: 66 Registered: 5-2003 |
Any chance the "Musician's Art Police" are: A) Musician wannabes that can't play and are jealous, or- B) Jealous musicians that will never make it to the stage but posses the ability to see what's wrong with everyone else's performance/technique? Critics- can't live with them, can't live without them! As a male musician, I admit I never felt at odds with female audience members that aren't to afraid to express themselves. It's cool too when guys, especially other bass players react to the sound of my MK5 and show up to "talk shop" about equipment. We're opening for Alicia Keys this week, and the management really got a kick out of how big my bass is. (35 inch scale balance point body). They got a bigger kick out of the sound. Relating to the topic, I hope the audience is kind enough to listen! We'll see. Bryant Bryant | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1348 Registered: 9-2002 |
Of course you got the "no-audience-at-all" situation. Yesterday we played for 12 drunken people in a huge bar ...well ...huh ...we played nicely and in the end 1 drunk started dancing on a small table of doubtfull stability ... well .... its IS an audience Paul TBO | ||
| mattheus
Intermediate Member Username: mattheus Post Number: 109 Registered: 5-2003 |
'Are those musicians bothering you' BRILJANT!!!! I must keep that line in mind..... | ||
| alemboid
Member Username: alemboid Post Number: 67 Registered: 5-2003 |
When it comes to audiences, one thing I appreciate is that the "bass owls" are usually fellow bassists, and there generally is no sense of competition- just interest and support. Its hard for me to say if this is the experience of guitarists, drummers and keyboard players. More dramatic changes have happened to the electric bass in the last 20 years than to guitars. With greater choices, there is likely going to be a variety of equiment used on various gigs. Ever show up and see a bassist playing something you haven't seen? How do you feel when a bassist takes the stage playing an Alembic? Talking to John Patitucci, he commented that no matter what, when he sees a bassist playing live, he will stop, watch and listen. "They may have some technique or groove I've never seen, so I gotta check it out". Now, If I saw John watching me, my hands would sweat, and I'd get really nervous- not wanting to make any mistakes! Enrique Iglesias was in the audience at a local jam session a couple of years ago. A friend of mine was playing, and when he was done, Enrique approached him about playing bass for him in his band, being that there was a vacancy. Of course he said yes, and the rest is history (lucky dog!) You never know who is in the audience. Bryant | ||
| effclef
Intermediate Member Username: effclef Post Number: 162 Registered: 1-2004 |
Bryant - does your friend play Alembics, too? Some months back I saw an ad on a spanish TV channel for Enrique, and there appeared to be some Alembics on stage. The ad flashed by in channelsurfing so fast I didn't get a good look. EffClef | ||
| alemboid
Member Username: alemboid Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hello Effclef, Unfortunately, he doesn't play an Alembic for now- as I am always trying to convince him to try one. He has been playing a couple of Fenders and a 5 string Sadowsky that I built for him when I worked at Sadowsky. Don't give up- one day he will come around :-) Bryant | ||
| effclef
Intermediate Member Username: effclef Post Number: 166 Registered: 1-2004 |
Bryant - hmm, that's interesting. I KNOW the ad was for Enrique and I am PRETTY SURE my eyes did not deceive me. Thought I saw someone playing a Standard Point bass and there was another instrument on a stand nearby with oval fingerboard inlays. Wonder who that is? No, I haven't browsed Enrique Iglesias fan sites to check, but that may answer for sure. Alembic-spotting, gotta love it. EffClef PS back to the "audiences" subject, I think part of it is venue. Is the venue primarily a place to drink and socialize, or is it a music hall? I try to be polite toward whoever is playing and whatever their skill level. My brother and I were in a little Mexican restaurant out in the sticks and there were a couple of guys setting up. We knew the place had blues bands and looked forward to the music. Well there was one guitarist/vocalist, his drum machine, and a bassist. My brother and I paid attention, and even clapped. They were doing OK! Afterwards, the bassist came over to thank us and wondered if we were record agents! It's too bad that applause can give that impression. If a band is BAD, I'll walk out, but hey, if they're trying hard, they deserve applause. | ||
| alemboid
Member Username: alemboid Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2003 |
I really appreciate that! I wish all audiences were as sensible and courteous as you and your brother. No doubt many of these audience members would throw a fit if they were treated the way they treat performing acts. When it comes to paying $300 to see acts like Britney Spears, I'm sure people sit and listen to get their moneys worth. I'm sure anyone talking would get decked by someone trying to listen! As far as I am concerned, any effort is worth consideration and respect. Like you, better to leave than disrespect. As far as Enrique's bassist, he may be using someone else with a love for the Alembic. My friend was with him from 2001 through at least mid 2003. He's been away, and he may or may be not still be playing for Enrique. His schedule had the band away almost constantly...nothing like worldwide fame! I'll see what I can find out about who is playing bass. Its sad that when someone finally claps, a band has to feel that some FINALLY listened. I have a show tonight, and I hope the audience at least doesn't throw tomatoes :~) I'll be dishing out thick-n-juicy Alembic tone, and we'll see what the reaction will be. Bryant |
