| Author | Message | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2004 |
We've had some good technical discussions in the past, so I thought this might be interesting. There are many 'systems' people use to tune their bass or guitar. How do you do it? For instance you can use the harmonics over the 5th and 7th frets - quick and dirty but not accurate. Compare the 7th fret to the next lower string (octaves). Compare the 5th fret to the next higher stting. Play open strings and learn to hear when 4ths are in tune. Or use a tuner? Let the guitar player tune it for you??? | ||
| spose
Junior Username: spose Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2002 |
Peterson VSII | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 842 Registered: 5-2002 |
Rack tuner; fifth fret harmonics. | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 312 Registered: 11-2002 |
Peterson V-SAM. Bought a VS-II, exchanged it because the -SAM supports alternate temperments relative to your assigned A-440 reference (won't go into that unless someone asks). Playing fretless, I use the Pythagorean, but if I had a fretted I'd try their 'proprietary' BAS temperment. The VS-II is fine, really, and you can program a relative PYTH into it if you want, though I had some noise problems with the inline mode. Prior to this thing, I never found a tuner that was as good as my ears with harmonics. I usually started with an A-440 tone generator, tuned with the 5th/7th harmonics, also checked the 12th/7th, and I always felt that if those both sounded right, I was good to go. But this tuner is better than I am. I've had it less than a year, and can't believe I lived without it so long. It's fast, and just astoundingly accurate. | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 278 Registered: 9-2002 |
I A L W A Y S use a tuner. As should everyone at the gig, session, etc. I'm a tuning fanatic, I wouldn't give you 2 cents for a bass that won't stay in tune. I always looked at it from the standpoint that since technique and tone were constantly moving targets, I certainly had no patience left to chase tuning during a gig. I only chime harmonics, tuning-wise, for a quick check between tunes. On my five-string, I fell into this quick, across the neck routine: Chime the G and D string at the 7th fret, then play the note at the fifth fret on the A string: This will form a basic D chord (d-a-d). Repeat this shape one string over, you get the idea. I spell out these three chords on my five (or 2 on a 4 string, 4 on a 6, etc.) just to check. I'm sure there are those here who know LOTS more harmonic chords than I do that would serve as well. Typically, I aim to have basses that I can actually take back to the gig tomorrow night that are still in tune from today, and usually I'm pretty close. I ONLY synchronize my harmonics when the new strings are installed. I NEVER leave the bass in the car to get too hot or too cold. I am really picky about winding them on the posts properly. I make sure the nut and bridge slots are free. I keep the tension adjusters in the keys firm, but not over tight. And fortunately, neck thrus eliminate the bolt joint, thereby eliminating one big out of tune potential. I'm past my bass-banging days, but I don't baby them. And they stay in tune. NEVER let you guitar player tune it ! J o e y | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1559 Registered: 9-2002 |
Korg DT-1 pro (rack). Since the fine tuning of a bass is for me part of the setting up of the bass (you know: bridge height, bow in the neck, nut height etc etc etc ...) on gigs I only use the harmonics above the 12th fret, sometimes I also finger loose strings and fretted stings on 5th. PTBO | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 483 Registered: 9-2003 |
Bob, Couple of quick questions: a) For those of us that DON"T play fretless (I'm a mess on 4-string FRETTED bass and 6-string guitar, so forget it, LOL!), is the V-SAM worth buying over the VS-II? b) Are the tone generator and metronome functions any good? I could use both for my guitar lessons (i.e., timing and pitch/ear training). I'm seriously interested in a Peterson strobe, so any help you can give would be appreciated. Cheers, Kevin | ||
| gare
Junior Username: gare Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'm also a bit of a tuning fanatic. I use a Korg rack tuner,a Sabine 1000,which is on standby in instrument case,and an old Peterson stobe tuner(which never leaves the house). The Peterson being the most accurate,it's also great for setup etc. I'll also do quick checks with the harmonics at the 5th,7th,and 12th. Gary | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 106 Registered: 1-2004 |
I've never used a tuner that was as accurate as I can tune by ear. But I've probably never used a high quality one. About 20 years ago I was at the Baldwin electric piano factory and saw a strobe tuner. I don't remember the brand but it was really impressive. Spinning disks and neon bulbs. The Peterson looks promising, especially the Strobe Center 5000II. I guess I'll put it on my christmas list. | ||
| poor_nigel
Intermediate Member Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 165 Registered: 7-2003 |
Being an old guy, I use old fashion strobe tuners. I started using Conn strobes back in the early 70's, but switched to Petersons @ 76 or 77, as they were much smaller, just as accurate, and came in a lidded, tolex covered wooden box. Much better for road work. I currently use a Peterson 490R installed in my rack. The back panel input is always hooked to my Navigator's turner output. When I want to use it, I just switch it on using the front panel switch. When others use it, I hit the mute switch on my Navigator and they plug into the front panel input and turn it on. This way all band members use the same tuner, which I think is important. Quick trick to using strobes on lower string is to first do a 12th harmonic to get it to more quickly hit speed for the note, and then you can pluck the open string and continue, or stay with the harmonic. These old fashioned strobes can take time to detect and respin to the proper revs for a new note played. B’s and E’s are the worst. This seller has mediocre prices for the newer electronic Petersons, but very good discounts on the larger strobes. He also has a couple of interesting links for general information on tuning. Note: Strobes are great for setting intonation of bridges and even for tuning drums. Don’t ya just hate it when the drummer is out of tune?! http://www.custombasses.8m.com/peterson/tuners.html | ||
| paulcissa
Junior Username: paulcissa Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
Peterson VSII - Everyone in the band tuned to the same device. Makes a world of difference. TUNE IT OR DIE! | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1574 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well, I tried on the gig this weekend to use the 12th and 5th harmonic routine and the open string. What if the 5th and the 12th differ for just 1 "mark" on the Korg DT1??? If I remember well: the B string had the intention to go a little lower on the 5th harmonic when the 12th was "tops" in the middle/green light! BTW: I'am gonna introduce that "everybody-tunes-on-1-tuner" routine. Paul TBO | ||
| xlrogue6
Member Username: xlrogue6 Post Number: 76 Registered: 8-2002 |
The 12th fret harmonic is the only one that is actually in tune(assuming your instrument is correctly intonated, of course) if you are using standard tempered tuning. | ||
| dean_m
Advanced Member Username: dean_m Post Number: 332 Registered: 7-2002 |
I use a Boss TU-2 Chromatic tuner in my floorboard. I usually just tune to the open strings and then check the harmonics after. I like the Boss because you can use it as a mute switch too, to change basses and such. Whenever I'm playing with an acoustic piano though, I ALWAYS tune to the piano and forgo the tuner. I learned my lesson a long time ago that not all pianos are tuned exactly to A 440. Peace, Dino | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1580 Registered: 9-2002 |
He ...ho ...you-hou ... guys ...GUYS ... here-oh!!!!! Brother Dino is back from being far away and playing other basses than Alembic on a Greek island sitting reversed on an antique wine-sunburst Harley. Auugh ...I have to stop drinking this wine! Brother Paul the fake one ... let me be the first to welcome you back in our garden of the wild lowsounding breed. Augh ... Okay ...I'll have another glass!! Paul the bad one BTW: the Boss TU-2 is on my music stand in the living room (together with printed copies of "odd meter excercices" downloaded from a friends website which I never seem to cope with ...they are just lying there ...***sigh***) | ||
| dean_m
Advanced Member Username: dean_m Post Number: 333 Registered: 7-2002 |
Brother Paul, Thank you for the warm welcome. I was going to call but I think it's got to be very late there now. Too much wine will do that to you. I am back home with my Alembics in tact. You are correct although I was playing my Elan. No greek island though. I am working on that too. Hopefully by the end of the year we'll have a Greek tour planned out. If there is aanyone that can give me a heads up on any jazz clubs in and around Athens, I would be greatly appreciative. Have another glass for me too brother. Did I not send you a copy of my book??? If not let me know. Peace, Dino bptfo | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1582 Registered: 9-2002 |
BROTHER DINO I AM STILL UP! And NOT mowing the lane! Working on the accounts of my alas failing business. No ... I didn't get a copy. I just "steal" it from your site ...HA! Just give me a ring! Paul the bad one | ||
| elzie
Advanced Member Username: elzie Post Number: 315 Registered: 8-2002 |
Paul The Bad One will tell you that I use my giant head for tuning, but sadly, I don't. I use a tuning fork and harmonics most of the time. When I install a new set of strings I use a tuner. Welcome back Dino! I hope you had fun ;) Paul TGO | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 854 Registered: 5-2002 |
Let's see; it's late at night and your drinking copious amounts of wine; AND your working on the accounts for your business! | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1583 Registered: 9-2002 |
***blush*** I was finished when I started these. PTBO | ||
| dannobasso
Intermediate Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 140 Registered: 3-2004 |
My rigs have Korg DTR 2000, DTR 1000 & DTR 2 TONEWORKS tuners in them. I use a small korg that i keep in my case when I go to a studio. All use the down a half step option. My band plays that way so i get to rumble a low B flat! I use harmonics as most of you do but I am amazed that Alembics can hold their tune even when shipped! Take that Fender! Have at you! Danno | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 107 Registered: 1-2004 |
Just for fun I just ran a few calculations. I had heard way back that if you tune using the 3rd and 4th harmonics (above the 7th and 5th frets) you should tune for a certain number of beats/second to really be in tune. Here's what I discovered. When you tune this way (let's say you're starting with your lowest string and working towards the higher strings) each successive string will be increasingly flat. But this can be compensated by sharpening each string to get the following number of beats per second. (Discounting inharmonicity.) E to A = 0.3 B/S (ie, one beat in about 3 sec) A to D = 0.5 B/S D to G = 0.75 B/S G to C = 0.9 B/S (almost one beat per second) Of course, as you keep going higher the problem gets worse, which is why when a guitar player uses this method he can tune all day long but can never get his E strings to match. I wonder if someone with a strobe tuner could try to confirm this? SoM (the harmonious one) (Message edited by son_of_magni on September 17, 2004) | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 317 Registered: 11-2002 |
Harmonious - As long as you're set up to run the calcs, what happens if you tune using harmonics at the 12th and 5th? And further, what if for each pair of strings, you sort of split the difference in a way that would minimize beats between the 5/7 and 12/5? I'd be willing to try to confirm this, but it won't be until almost Thanksgiving (late November) the way things are going right now. I do have some notes somewhere, from when I first got my Peterson, that showed my ears being off more than expected, though I thought I was spreading rather than shrinking - have to dig those out, or just try again. -Bob | ||
| flaxattack
Intermediate Member Username: flaxattack Post Number: 145 Registered: 4-2004 |
i use a line 6 pod. i can check every fret to ensure proper intonation and a flat neck | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 324 Registered: 6-2002 |
I guess I was always tuning open strings to where they sounded at the proper interval. Then someone told me about the 5th/7th harmonics trick, and I used that, but I always found myself setting the D and G strings slightly sharp and perhaps the E string slightly flat, because the intervals just seemed off. Now you guys tell me there's a perfectly good reason for that, and I must say I'm relieved! I guess I'll stick to tuning in intervals and just stay away from the harmonics trick. But I still can't ever get a guitar tuned comfortably - that may have to do with not having set the intonation on mine for at least ten years ... | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 109 Registered: 1-2004 |
I have to go to work but I just a couple notes. Where I said 4th and 5th harmonics they're really called the 3rd and 4th harmonics. The harmonics over the 12th and 5th frets are the 2nd and 4th, and they are in tune (no error). - SoM | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2002 |
"The harmonics over the 12th and 5th frets are the 2nd and 4th, and they are in tune (no error). " Duh, I knew that... why are things always so much more obvious in the morning? | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 489 Registered: 9-2003 |
Alrighty then, I couldn't wait, so I bought a V-SAM. Damn, the thing has everything but the kitchen sink on it. I'm gonna be scratchin' my head for a while trying to figure out all the things this thing does. Good thing for that smelly rubber protective boot a la FLUKE DMM's. This thing has some pretty crappy construction for a $375 tuner. Is it even made in America? I know ask a stupid question...., LOL! Would it have killed them to include a cheapo carry/slip case for the thing, or even a set of cheapo batteries? Whine, whine, whine, some people are never satisfied, LOL! If it lasts twenty-something years like my last two portable Korg jobbies, It'll be doin something. Yeah, I know, wishful thinking...and then I woke up, LOL!. |
