| Author | Message | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 2370 Registered: 5-2009 |
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/ebx/ascap-targets-farmers-markets-and-house-venues/Content?oid=3151285 They are doing it again !____________ I recently had a gig canceled because a local Venue Owner was worried about being fined. I remember in the early 1990's they swept around from venue to venue listening in for " Cover Tunes " . | ||
| stout71
Junior Username: stout71 Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2011 |
This sucks in certain circumstances, but remember, BMI and ASCAP are out there to protect musicians with copyrighted material. Anytime a song gets played on the radio, the artists "should" get a royalty. When venues register with these guys, they're basically buying a "blanket" license to cover any circumstances where a band or musician plays a cover tune. The alternative is BMI or ASCAP showing up at a gig and fining the MUSICIAN for playing a cover tune, which is why the venue takes on the liability. If the venue owner is worried about being fined, they should do the right thing and register. That's my two cents anyway. | ||
| xlrogue6
Advanced Member Username: xlrogue6 Post Number: 204 Registered: 8-2002 |
I'm all for paying artists royalties, but I suspect the majority of the revenue generated by these "sting" operations supports the bureaucracy that collects them. | ||
| stout71
Junior Username: stout71 Post Number: 44 Registered: 7-2011 |
I suspect that you're right. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1042 Registered: 1-2005 |
Agreed - I don't think this is with the best interests of musicians in mind - I think it's the old fashioned music industry trying to protect their money! | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1829 Registered: 9-2002 |
This is the inevitable back end of the business rising, since the front end (record sales/royalties) have been demolished with pirate downloads. I've heard all the lame arguments for these ripoffs, and nothing yet has convinced me it's any different from walking into (the recently gone) Tower Records, filling a shopping bag, and walking right out without paying a cent. The really unfortunate problem I see here in Nashville is the songwriters: They may have penned a platinum hit for an artist. That artist can play road dates and do fine, but the songwriter royalties from that are tiny, and with no accountable record sales aside from I*Tunes and the like, what's the future for these writers? Why do you think it seems like every artist is out on the road every year like clockwork? Until some workable model can be enforceable in this Brave New Digital World where the owners and creators can be rightfully paid what's theirs, it's going to be a difficult time. Oh, and that 'old fashioned music industry'? Come here and let me take you to Music Row, and we'll go see where it used to be, along with the Civil War relics. Well, I forgot, we can go to the Opry on the weekend . . . . It's just going to be a while 'till the 'new fashioned music industry' is fully formed. J o e y | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5096 Registered: 7-2004 |
The bummer is that the gig Wolf & I were playing wasn't even a paying gig! We were doing it for fun - tips only. The last time out I think I made all of $4.50. Including schlepping the equipment, set up and breakdown, it worked out to about $0.90 an hour! And now we can't even do that. Gee, can I play in my basement studio or will that buy me a lawsuit? Bill, tgo | ||
| pauldo
Senior Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 791 Registered: 6-2006 |
You CAN play in your basement but be cautious . . . "Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death." :-o Paul TSO | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1043 Registered: 1-2005 |
Joey, how about if we change "the old fashioned music industry" to "the bean counters and suits who make their money of the creativity of others"? When I said "the old fashioned music industry" I wasn't inferring anything about the "new fashioned music industry" at all, but if I were to talk about it, I would hope that it supports creativity and the best interests of musicians, songwriters, and everyone else that is a part of what makes music great. | ||
| oddmetersam
Intermediate Member Username: oddmetersam Post Number: 181 Registered: 7-2008 |
Way back (actually, way, WAY back) when, Savant Guard played Jupiter in Berkeley on a regular basis and we always ended our set with "Led Boots" from the Jeff Beck "Wired" album. The outro is in 7 and we always tried to take it into outer space! One evening I noticed a solitary figure nursing a beer off to the side, checking us out. We played one of our better renditions of the tune and when I was packing up while the other two guys went to the bathroom this same guy comes up and was very complimentary about our performance. Then he introduced himself: Narada Michael Walden -- the drummer on that album and one of my fusion heroes whom I'd also seen with the Mahavishnu Orchestra. I almost passed out. Super cool and humble dude who seemed pleased we'd played the tune. I mentioned that whenever someone asked about the song (one of only 3 cover tunes in our entire catalog), we always told them about the original and suggested they check out the album. He split before my weak-bladder bandmates returned. We sent him a Christmas-themed "thanks for listening" card. Savant Guard may be long gone, but I still receive an annual Christmas card from his Tarpan Studios. BTW, I've played that San Leandro Farmers Market in Wolf's link 3 times with Sizemo. Some buds said the last time they could hear my Alembic from a few blocks away. And I really don't play that loud, I swear... -Sam | ||
| lidon2001
Senior Member Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 484 Registered: 4-2005 |
A quick refresher for those who need it: Copyright Math | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 10600 Registered: 5-2002 |
Great story Sam! Very cool! | ||
| lidon2001
Senior Member Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 485 Registered: 4-2005 |
ASCAP fee for a shopping center / mall less than 300,000 sq. ft. one day performance is $41.50. Not sure what this venue/market would be classified as, but let's say this is it. Do the people who host the event profit from it or are they non-profit? If they do profit, is $41.50, or $3362 maximum (any size shopping venue)for a year, too much in addition to performer costs (or lack there of in Bill's gig) to provide an entertaining atmosphere for their patrons? I didn't look to see what BMI rates are. You be the judge, but I wouldn't call asking venues to pay $41.50 for each day of an event with live music including covers if they are making money from said event as "rampaging". Even in court, $3362 only gets you so much rampaging (small claims?); I don't think all caps are necessary. Check out www.ascap.com for more info. I don't think it's too much to ask. Having done licensing for a karaoke company that basically ignored Harry Fox and others for a number of years despite my recommendation not to, I say yes, pay the songwriters. That being said, there was the recent report of the band that asked their fans to avoid iTunes and other traditional sellers, and pirate their music, get it from their website, or buy a t-shirt or disc at a show since their record company is allegedly cheating them. I support such actions. But if you want the truth as usual, you have to follow the money. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 2371 Registered: 5-2009 |
I believe in 100% Anti-Piracy. Having contributed to the music industry as a musician ,writer and engineer I am my self being cheated out of royalties from various sources. I have personally confronted parties who illegally sell NOT considered as "FAIR USE" copied music CD's and DVD's at Flea Markets and have notified the persons who are " in charge" of such practices many times. I believe that if a public establishment is required to pay a fee for performances that rather then an ambush or sting method in the collection process that a friendly notification method should be used. If there is no "stinging, biting ,ambushing" or other such tactical methodology then large"OUCH" caps will not be necessary. (Message edited by sonicus on March 19, 2012) | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 942 Registered: 12-2004 |
this aint nothin but a 'Mafia shakedown'!.........gangsters taking their cut! | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 943 Registered: 12-2004 |
this aint nothin but a 'Mafia shakedown'!.........Gangsters taking their cut! | ||
| lidon2001
Senior Member Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 486 Registered: 4-2005 |
Since when was anything nice about the music business, and why would anyone expect anything different? It's always been a rat trap filled with good intentions from my experience. Heck, in most cities, you need a license to dance in a club or bar. Hopefully there was no dancing at the farmers market. Can you imagine the penalties for that? Nobody is claiming any sanity here, just stating how things are. I don't call verifying violations and asking to be made whole with possible relatively small court actions a sting. I call it prudent business protecting my song's revenue streams (if I had any) in a world where there is free transfer of digital information (and hopefully that transfer ability stays that way). That transfer ability also means finding new revenue streams, and tightly monitoring current ones. Had the hosts of the events had any common business sense or knowledge, they would know that live performance needs a license. That person in the article who operates a house club claiming ignorance at $222 licensing for a year is a joke as a business operator in my humble opinion. Again, this is in profit situations. If it is for charity, etc., I say play away. Isn't it prudent to discuss going into business with a lawyer familiar with the topic to make sure you have all the bases covered for your liabilities? Claiming ignorance and being found guilty with no intent has been part of the legal framework here for sometime, sad as it may be. "Sorry officer, I didn't see that speed limit sign" doesn't work too often. But then again, I worked in licensing, trying to make sure my company was compliant to PAY THE SONGWRITERS. And then some songwriters complain about collections.... sigh.... Every month at work I get a nasty letter from the landlord saying pay up or move out despite being up to date with no problems. The landlord says it's a computer generated letter and to forget it when I get one. The point being, if they call and talk to BMI or ASCAP, I am sure those firms would be friendly, just like Harry Fox was with me. Of course they threatened legal action, if not pursued it against my former company, but they never were "rampaging". Just business as usual, always approachable, and willing to make a deal. | ||
| lidon2001
Senior Member Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 487 Registered: 4-2005 |
As usual, leave it to ol' #12 to hit the nail on the head! You are correct sir! | ||
| smokinbear
Intermediate Member Username: smokinbear Post Number: 134 Registered: 11-2008 |
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." --Hunter S. Thompson | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 2372 Registered: 5-2009 |
The older that I get I realize how important the messages are in these two tunes . The message of" treat others how you want to be treated" is universal and we our selves reap the ultimate benefit as a result. it's all an individual choice . I love these tunes my Brothers and Sisters !_______http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LQcIEnlhB0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqP3wT5lpa4&feature=fvsr Some people will get the message some won't and others just don't care __________________ | ||
| lidon2001
Senior Member Username: lidon2001 Post Number: 488 Registered: 4-2005 |
Amen to that. Here's a fun site to read about some current happenings in the digital pirate / intellectual property war. www.techdirt.com | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1149 Registered: 5-2002 |
I would not be against this practice if it were not for the fact that the payouts don't go to the artists who need them the most. They average the numbers so that composers who are less well known fall off into the noise of the statistics and the real money goes to the people who are being covered at the top 40 level. That means a club who is paying ASCAP and/or BMI and then has bands that play obscure covers is still generating money for whoever is on the charts or has the classic hits and the writers of the obscure covers slog on in poverty, regardless of the fact that their hard work might be generating income for other musicians and for clubs. There's no one to one conformity and that's a problem. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 2376 Registered: 5-2009 |
Edwin, __ excellent point ! Thanks for pointing this out _______ | ||
| richbass939
Senior Member Username: richbass939 Post Number: 1172 Registered: 11-2004 |
As usual, I like Willie Nelson's angle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXavCs-wSJQ Rich | ||
| peoplechipper
Advanced Member Username: peoplechipper Post Number: 271 Registered: 2-2009 |
Agreed, Willie is right...funny as last night I was cleaning and found a stack of unfinished songs...YAY! now I just have to finish them... |
