| Author | Message | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 323 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'm baffled. Would SOMEBODY tell me WHY my basses go out of tune SHARP instead of flat when I leave them alone for a couple of days? Whether I put them in their cases or leave them on their stands here in my home, they always creep sharp, typically about 20 to 30 cents. My mind keeps telling me they should droop and go slightly flat, but no . . . Those of you know what a setUp nut I am should know I run my keys snug, maintain my truss rods religiously, and usually always tune when I begin to practice or play. They are NEVER detuned. My tuner (a BOSS TU-100) has always matched the band on every gig I've ever played, so I know it's kosher. The SPOILER is a '91, the BB5000A is a '90, so I'd think that the wood 'knows it's not a tree anymore'. They are NEVER left in a hot/cold car, etc. Can anybody explain this to me, I'm totally baffled. IS it black helicopters or what???? J o e y | ||
| poor_nigel
Advanced Member Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 317 Registered: 7-2003 |
Hey Joey, that's a stumper. The only thing I can think of that kind of may fit, but still does not really seem probable, would be that warm things expand, and cold things contract. I cannot really put those variables into a consistent scenario that would come close to explaining what you are experiencing, though. You can bet I will be watching this post to find out if someone comes up with an answer. | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1717 Registered: 9-2002 |
The season of the year??? No ....no joke ...I strongly believe that. Bonnie suffers from the same thing. Although in fall she is detuning flat, in summer she stays tuned, in fall she detunes sharp in winter she stays stable. Again ....NO joke!! I wouldn't dare! Paul the bad one | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 356 Registered: 6-2002 |
In fall the air humidity rises. If the wood absorbs extra humidity, it will expand and then obviously the string gets stretched as well. Good strings on an instrument with stable tuners do not go flat in the short run. | ||
| poor_nigel
Advanced Member Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 318 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joey - how long has this been going on? I ignored humidity, as I thought you were talking year round, and always detuning sharp. In which case underware knomes are probably the cause, sneaking in late at night to do their mischief and drive you nutz. Did you upset them lately? If this is something that has just gone on for the last four to six months, humidity would probably be the culpret. If you are talking all-year-round, then I am still stumped. | ||
| davehouck
Senior Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 944 Registered: 5-2002 |
Humidity would be my first thought as well. But then there is also the electronics that homeland security installed in your walls when you weren't home. Have you noticed a clicking noise when talking on the telephone? | ||
| bsee
Advanced Member Username: bsee Post Number: 363 Registered: 3-2004 |
Do you play in the same room you store your bass? For me, if the bass has settled to be 5-10 degrees cooler than the playing area, it will be sharp and slowly drop into tune as it warms. Or, if I tune it right up front, it will go flat and be brought back up as it warms. When you play, try to keep track of every time you adjust tuning. You may remember tuning down as you pick the bass up, but are you also bringing it back up during your playing session? -Bob | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 299 Registered: 10-2003 |
Joey, What Bob described is also my experience... Ever do any work with J.T. Corenflos or Richie Owens? John | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 324 Registered: 9-2002 |
John, I've never done any work with the two cats you mentioned. My routine is to tune them as I start to play, and I never touch them again during the session. While the humidity naturally varies over the year, they are ALWAYS in a central air environment. They are rarely in the car, and when they are they're in the passenger seat, NEVER the trunk. And these are both painted/clearcoat instruments, not as easily breathing as an oil-finish. My basses have ALWAYS done this for years. Again, we're generally talking about half of a half-step, but I just can't figure this out. Maybe it's HAARP . . . . Keep digging, boys!! J o e y | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 301 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think it may also have something to do with your hands heating the strings, which will become longer as they warm up and tighten as they cool. I don't have any better ideas at the moment... I used to play a LOT with both of them, but haven't talked to J.T. for about a year or Richie for probably 10 or so. I figured there was about a 99 percent chance that you guys crossed paths sometime/somewhere because Nashville is like that (or at least used to be). J.T. works quite a bit with Hungate and Sklar, and Richie was producing Dolly the last I heard (I played in a punk band with him)... Both are great to work with if you get the opportunity.. John | ||
| bsee
Advanced Member Username: bsee Post Number: 372 Registered: 3-2004 |
What you describe borders on impossible, Joey. You are saying that you have a bass that is in tune and then put it away. You come back some time later and have to loosen the strings to get it in tune. You never tighten anything back up, and the cycle repeats. It just isn't physically possible that this continues for an extended period. There must be something inaccurate about your perception of events. | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 326 Registered: 9-2002 |
bsee Well, I'm sure this won't be the LAST time I have an inaccurate perception of events ! ! I tune, play for a while, put it up. Tomorrow it will be 20-25 cents sharp (it doesn't keep going up over time, it stops at around that half of a half step). I'll detune below pitch, tune up to 440, and play. (I ONLY tune up). Well??? J o e y | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 327 Registered: 9-2002 |
811 No, these friends of yours are in too high cotton for me to have met them out here in the weeds ! ! J o e y | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 346 Registered: 11-2002 |
How smoothly do the strings slide through the nut when you tune? How hard do you pull the strings when you play? What strings are you using? | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 360 Registered: 6-2002 |
If you put the instrument in a case, lying flat, gravity will cause a minimal amount of bow over the entire length. If your truss rods are faily loose (like when you use 30-90 sets) the effect would be more noticeable. The effect may be less if the instrument remains rested in line with the pull of gravity. (Message edited by adriaan on October 22, 2004) | ||
| dadabass2001
Advanced Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 279 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have seen similar tuning variances with all three of my basses. For what it's worth, I usually try to deliberately slide my hands over the strings repeatedly (bare hands or polishing cloth) after I take my basses out of the case and before I tune, specifically to deal with the warm string / cold string comparison. I'm basically "pre-warming" the string by friction before I start to play. Mike | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 304 Registered: 10-2003 |
Joey, I don't recall what radio station carries NPR in Nashville, but I recommend finding out when Car Talk runs and calling in with your question. If for no other reason than I'd like to hear what they'd have to say, since it is a puzzler if ever there was one... ;) http://www.cartalk.com/ John | ||
| pookeymp
Intermediate Member Username: pookeymp Post Number: 178 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hey Joey, This has baffled me for some time, because as yourself, I imagined that I would be tuning up instead of tuning down. But, with my Tobias, I regularly find the same thing. But, not the case with my other bassses...which are all kept in the same room. Mikey/ | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 328 Registered: 9-2002 |
And the puzzle continues: Bob, --- there's no binding in the slots --- I have a light touch with both hands --- Boomer 5string mediums (45,65,85, 105, 130) Adriaan, --- they are always in their case on their side, never flat on their backs --- the truss rods are steady, since I'm so fussy about setUp, and you can see I'm using larger strings DaDA, I tune them when I first pick them up, before body heat would do anything. I don't find them uptuned (have I invented a word?) till I go to play them again a day or two later. Pookey, have we been targeted by the same Black Project? J o e y | ||
| bsee
Advanced Member Username: bsee Post Number: 374 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think you need to order some new bass cases. Yours have been infested by gnomes of some sort, or maybe pixies. On further reflection, gnomes generally prefer tuning flat, or alternating one string sharp and the next flat so you get really confused, so it's probably just pixies. | ||
| jet_powers
Intermediate Member Username: jet_powers Post Number: 193 Registered: 2-2003 |
Gnome infested cases? Possibly.... I'm no physicist but, when it cools overnight as I'm guessing it does where you live, as where I do, things tend to contract. If I had to guess, and I certainly am, I would wager that the neck of a bass guitar contracting would cause the strings to tighten, and the next time you play it it would be slightly sharp. I've noticed it with my 4 strings. My Rogue 5 OTOH could probably withstand a night in the back of my car in sub freezing temperatures and still be in tune the day. Do these gnomes and pixies have any particular color prefences for the fuzzy stuff inside the case? John Paul | ||
| jagerphan84
Intermediate Member Username: jagerphan84 Post Number: 101 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm no physicist either, but if the wood neck is contracting, wouldn't the metal strings do the same thing, but at a faster rate? Digging around my brain for the things I learned in high school, I thought metal would have a lower specific heat than wood and would therefore react more quickly to a change in temperature. If the strings contracted more then the neck, perhaps that could cause increased string tension and a subsequently higher pitch. Like I said, I'm no physicist, so maybe you should pick up a can of gnome repellant, too. | ||
| bsee
Advanced Member Username: bsee Post Number: 375 Registered: 3-2004 |
Regardless of which contracts more, there would be a limit. If you had to tighten the strings every day, well, increasing neck bow or string stretch could keep you doing that for a while, but not eternally. A need to loosen the strings every few days would mean that the strings are contracting or the neck is stretching. Again, this should hit a steady state at some point. It physically cannot go on forever. If it isn't gnomes or pixies, then there's some subliminal string tightening, or maybe the tuners all hit the case just right to knock them out of tune in the same direction. Would you consider leaving the bass on its stand a few days to see if the phenomenon ceases? Note that this would also keep it out of reach of the pixies, so you still might have a bit more investigation to do afterwards. | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 306 Registered: 10-2003 |
Maybe you should calibrate your tuner. You might actually be playing the better part of an octave flat by now (which would explain why the band keeps changing the keys from day to day on you)... john | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 333 Registered: 9-2002 |
Think of it though: If the neck contracts, the bridge would walk towards the nut, and tension would decrease: Tension is tuning, so it would flat. But, all of you made me think this through (just what I wanted you to do) and I think I've got it. I always tune UP to pitch. If I go past, I'll detune 'under' the note and try again, coming up and stopping on 'the spot'. The ALEMBIC has the typical GB Gotohs. The Yamaha has their open gear tuners with the tension collar adjustment, same sort of friction control as a sealed key. As part of my setup, I run this friction rather snug, so as never to leave enough slack for them to ease off flat while I'm playing. See where I'm going? I'm obviously not getting ALL of the travel in the key when I come UP to pitch, and then playing in it a while 'pulls' that last bit of travel into the key and it goes sharp. I've always set my keys this way, and every bass with adjustable keys I've owned did this. Damn, and I was having a ball rigging the starlight scope to watch my cases for little elfin intruders . . . oh well, they're out of season anyway. Thank you for making me work through this. J o e y | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 362 Registered: 6-2002 |
Joey, On the regular Gotohs (as on the Yamahas, IIRC) you can insert the end of the string into the hollow centre of the tuning post. If you don't already do that ... Adriaan | ||
| bob
Advanced Member Username: bob Post Number: 348 Registered: 11-2002 |
Joey, Maybe we should just let this be, now that you've satisfied yourself. But I'm not quite sure I buy the 'gear slop' theory. As long as you are tuning up, the string is going to continue pulling back on one face of the gears, and I don't see any way the gears are going to sort of settle in to a middle position. An experiment might be in order. Alternate, every other string, tuning up or down. I'd go three down, since you have more experience the other way. Check your tuning again at the end of playing, and then the next day. My guess is you'll find the ones you tuned up are already somewhat sharp by the end of a lengthy playing session, and the ones tuned down a bit flat. The reason I asked about nut slots is that, especially when tuning up, any friction at all is going to leave you with the portion between the nut and tuner with a little more tension than is on the rest of the string. I don't care how perfectly fitted and smooth your slots are, I'm convinced this is going to happen to some extent. The vibrations of playing for a while would help this to equalize (sharp of your original tuning), and maybe there would be some slight creep while sitting quietly for a day (though I think this would be much less). I also tune up, but have a regular routine where after turning the key, I press on the string between nut and tuner, probably over-equalizing it slightly, and then pull on the string (slightly harder than I would usually play) back around the pickups. Of course, I could be wrong, or at the very least a bit obsessive... -Bob | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 334 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bob, I've done a lot of things I'm not proud of, and I'll probably do few more to qualify myself as a dog . . . but even at that, I NEVER tune down instead of up ! I've gotta look myself in the mirror, you know? J o e y | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 364 Registered: 6-2002 |
Well, just got back from Neverneverland and what the heck - the tuning on my Spoiler had gone sharp too, after lying in its case, flat on its back for about a week (I don't play as often as I want to). Humidity in the house has gone up over the last few days, because of the weather, and the central heating was on for the first time in months. Duh, why didn't I check the Epic when I noticed the change on the Spoiler? Okay, will do so tonight. | ||
| adriaan
Advanced Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 386 Registered: 6-2002 |
So it took a couple more days before I did check, but the Epic did not go as sharp. I don't have a tuner, but trust me I know when the tuning goes sharp. It could be that neck-throughs react stronger than set-necks to - well, we haven't figured out what it was. | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 133 Registered: 1-2004 |
I don't know how old your basses are but I thought this might be something to think about. My experience is that it takes 2 or 3 years for a neck-through bass to really stabilize. Until that happens, your action will change with atmospheric conditions, but most noticably with the seasons. And you will want to adjust the truss rods maybe twice a year. But after those first years it almost never needs to be adjusted, and will stay in tune for weeks. |
