| Author | Message | ||
| piotr_c
Junior Username: piotr_c Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2012 |
Hi Everyone, I was watching an interview of Marcus Miller on youtube this weekend. Basically he compares music with a language and says that if you learn it at a later stage than in your young teens (or before), you'll always be stuck with "an accent" (e.g. Inspector Clouseau speaking english). Check it out from minute 4:00 onwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p43B7QWKsU Of course, he says that you can "find your thing" and playing with an "accent" can be cute,..., but well... at the end of the day, somewhere he implies you'll never be a real musician (and for me real doesn't imply being a professional musician). How truthful is this in your experience and how scared should I be, as I started the instrument at 37 years old...! And please two more things about your answers: 1. Don't protect my feelings, go for an honest answer as always...! 2. No judgement on MM himself, but just on the theme of the quote... Thanks, Pierre | ||
| tubeperson
Advanced Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 353 Registered: 5-2005 |
Well that is Marcus' opinion, but someone who is determined can learn music and play an instrument at any age. In fact, sometimes the "exuberance of youth" sets boundaries that a more experienced person does not have. It is quite common for Pat Metheny to have his band members learn odd instruments for live performances. Whenever I have had the opportunity to see him live, the peripheral players learned their new craft very well. As an example, are you a better companion to your life partner at age 15 or age 35? Do senior citizens grasp the new technology such as the internet, cell phones etc. I would say they do. I think he did not really think that through, unless he is referring to speed of playing (there's that too many notes thing again) versus tasteful playing, such as Eric Clapton transitioning from Cream to where he is today, a blues player). Ask him that question in 15 years and see what he says. | ||
| hammer
Advanced Member Username: hammer Post Number: 205 Registered: 9-2009 |
Pierre: You ask and interesting and hotly debated question that I’ll respond to coming from the perspective of a child psychologist who has studied the development of children and young adults for more years than I currently wish to acknowledge. Having looked at the literature in this area as well as that related to language development I can say that at least some of what Marcus Miller suggests appears to have some evidence to back it up. Keep in mind that I said “some” of what he suggests appears to be true. The manner in which our brains work seems to make skill acquisition in a number of different areas easier during certain periods or phases of development than others. This includes both cognitive and physical skills. There is currently no question, for example, that language acquisition is easier at younger as opposed to older ages. In this area, their seems to be a period from about age to 2 to age 6 during which our brains are primed for the development of language and language-related skill development. The research suggests, however, that this is more of a sensitive period than a critical period. By that I mean it is easier to acquire language skills during this phase of development than others. In no way does the research suggest that language acquisition that occurs at a later point in development will necessarily be inferior. It may take a bit more work, but the overall level of skill acquisition attained can be just as great and potentially even greater because of the tremendous impact of practice. What does the research say about musical development? For a nice review, I suggest reading an article by Trainor, L.J. (2005). Are There Critical Periods for Musical Development? Developmental Psychobiology 46: 262–278. It’s available online I believe at http://psycserv.mcmaster.ca/ljt/critical_periods.pdf. This research team at McMaster University in Canada concluded that while there is supporting evidence for critical periods in music development, this pertains more to basic than complex aspects of musical acquisition and that there are many different pathways through which one can acquire expertise in the field of music. Given that musicianship involves much more than pitch acquisition and neuromuscular coordination, the researchers conclude that developing expertise in this area of life is like many other human capacities as result of a complex interplay of genetics, opportunity, and the drive to practice, practice, practice. I think it’s also important to note that while some aspects of musicianship such as pitch identification and the ability to quickly finger specific chords or scales as a result of neurological patterns developing might be facilitated by early exposure, musicianship is much more than this. Ever listen to a person play a musical piece in a technically perfect manner, but fail to be moved at all by the composition? That ability to embed emotion and feeling in to one’s playing is learned as a result of experiencing life along with all its ups and downs. So to summarize...I totally agree with Steve (aka tubeperson). Though it might take you a bit longer to master certain aspects of musicianship, if your committed to the endeavor, you'll likely be successful. A great example from the field of visual arts is the famous folk artist Grandma Moses who didn't start painting until in to her seventies. | ||
| tubeperson
Advanced Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 354 Registered: 5-2005 |
Thanks, Hammer for laying some "smack" down. Usually I create a disturbance (my selling nature perhaps), such as the issue of reading music and not just relying on "feel" as contested in other posts. I am aware of language skills learning for "youngsters"; in my experience, I always spoke to my son in his infant and todler years in an adult like fashion. At age 14, he has an uncanny ability to learn various languages, and I continue encourage him to pursue this. Can't hurt him with meeting friends from all over the world, especially since he is a very talented competitive figure skater and meets many people from many countries. A strong linguistics skill set can only help him in a global economy and who knows, perhaps with the FBI and CIA, since the current administration is intent on having everyone work for the government. Thanks for the empirical anecdotes! | ||
| piotr_c
Junior Username: piotr_c Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2012 |
Wow, that's what I call documentation...! But at least it is reassuring, for certainty is nowhere, which gives me a chance to hope to become a decent player. I must say that I was lucky to date a girl at the time who's family on her father's side were nearly all classical musicians, one of her cousin's is even a famous Choir director. She could play piano beautifully, as long as the partition was there, read fluently of course, but after she played "la cathédrale engloutie" by Debussy (tube you would love it... Very few notes, but close your eyes and you can actually see the cathedral sinking...!), i asked her if she could improvise me something more "jazzy" on the piano. Impossible for her. Her sister, an alto violinist, has an "absolute ear", no improvising as well. In short, interpretation yes, improvisation, the ultimate no go, it always stunned me. Anyway, thanks to both of you for your opinons and documentation... I now hope that the fact of having at least listened to a very large sample of music these past 30 years has helped my brain to grow some sort of musical capacity...! | ||
| afrobeat_fool
Senior Member Username: afrobeat_fool Post Number: 467 Registered: 7-2009 |
I would like to add something. I am a son of a Julliard trained classical pianist. My mother played in the Cincinnati symphony. As a small child through my 10th year I practiced religiously on the piano and vocally. Then I found soccer. My mothers personality and my need for freedom became a problem and I stopped playing. But when I wanted to return to music I liked, Jazz, It was amazing what I could hear and others could not. The early training held on for a long time. Ultimately I found that I am interested in music for my own pleasure. Sometimes with others, sometimes in live setting, etc... But I always play for me. Phil Baker (Diana Ross,Pink Martini) asked me a question years ago that took me a long time to figure out. "Who are you playing for, Nick? The crowd, your mother, that hot girl stage left, or you? If it's not for you, then you will never have your own voice" I think we all have accents no matter when we started. The only exception would be a person who made his/her own instrument and never heard one note of man made music and never had one second of training. Accent=influence. Piotr, I hope you come to understand that you are the only one that matters in this question. Buying instruments is fun. I've had a bunch. I have found that my Alembic SII shorty is the tool that suits me. I am done looking. I find that I am now at ease with my Bass. I am not asking for more from it, as was the case from other basses. That has become part of my voice. Nick | ||
| piotr_c
Junior Username: piotr_c Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2012 |
Hi Nick, thanks for that great input. I agree with you, that the end of the day, playing for oneself is the name of the game (not in the egotistic sense, but because of the pleasurous feeling you have while playing). If i'm not too indiscreet and curious, i would like to know how you came back to music once you "broke your chains". I'm absolutely convinced that the "religious" classical training at young age was more than precious for your musical development. Was the step from classical to jazz and others a hard one? I mean not in your intellectual new found freedom, but simply getting back to a musical instrument, and a different one for that matter? Otherwise, relative to buying a "bunch of instruments", it is a point well taken. Too much GAS for me at the moment, but this somehow pushes me to play and practice more, even if one of these days the "for sale" section will be filling up...! | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 561 Registered: 5-2002 |
This is an interesting question! For what it's worth, I did start with music at a young age, but I think that where you are in your life when you intersect with music (both when you start listening and when you start playing) have a lot of effect on how you manifest as a musician. That said, it's sort of like everything around music - your "goodness" is subjective not objective in most cases. There are definitely some huge differences that you will have when you start young that won't be the same when you're an adult. Starting young just gives you more absolute time for you to develop physical mastery of your instrument. If you start young enough that somebody is supporting you, there are a whole different focus on what your life is about and what percentage of your hours you dedicate to playing. When you're a grown-up with a job and bills to pay, you probably won't spend every afternoon thrashing it out in the basement, and when you play with others, you'll have different expectations of what your abilities should be. It's just a totally different thing, which isn't necessarily bad, but is definitely different! David Fung | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1904 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well good for Marcus, but I always think of music like food: Some days, BBQ. Some days, Chinese. Next day, steak and potatoes. I don't want to eat the same thing every day, so I'd better learn to cook some of everything . . . . MM has played with lots of different people in different situations, and he sounds like . . . Marcus Miller. So lemme get this straight, he's not 'playing with an accent' by being in lots of situations and winds up sounding like he's . . . Marcus Miller. OK, so it's not an accent if it sounds like yourself ? I'm all for accents. Whether its Miles, or Eddie Van Halen, or Stanley, or Neil Peart, or Vladimir Horowitz, or Sinatra, isn't that what draws us ? All my life, all I wanted was a McCartney accent, maybe Carol Kaye or Duck Dunn. I understand what MM's saying, but for me, I'd be very happy to do one thing well. But then, I'll never play for Miles, and that's OK, I'm just playing for me. Piotr, I often wish I'd started at 37 ! J o e y | ||
| peoplechipper
Advanced Member Username: peoplechipper Post Number: 293 Registered: 2-2009 |
This is a wonderfully juicy thread, we all have our connections to it; I started playing in my teens then dropped it for 10+ years( played with guitars more than I played them...but I'm pretty good at guitar repair as a result...) but I picked it up again and over time now play bass more than guitar. The thing is that I am supremely ignorant of music's rules, which I am slowly learning so I can play with others(good for the playground...) but it is fun to break the rules when you don't know them... The one thing I have going for me is my 'accent' which is a certain distorted tone that other local players praise...I recently realized that it really is in the player as I was getting the same tone on another bass ACOUSTICALLY...first time I ever attributed that thing to myself, and I don't think that can be taught, although it can surely be encouraged...Tony | ||
| tubeperson
Advanced Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 355 Registered: 5-2005 |
Nick, I think playing for yourself is by far the most important thing. I played clarinet in elementary school, then in Jr. High (now called middle school), but it was not until I picked up a bass as a teen that I really got into music for me. This is not a "selfish" me, although some might see it that way. I have been married just about 21 years, and my wife has never heard me play. Go figure that one out! I would have no problem jamming with others! David, youth certainly has its advantages, more "Free time" to devote to studies, less other pressures such as family to support and bills etc., probably fewer biases (but not enough experience to see beyond boundaries) plus more energy period. My Mom always told me mothers were meant to be young, and I think that is for two reasons, more youthful energy (if my son was now an infant, it would be hard for me to chase him down since I need a cane to walk most times, as compared to when he was always crawling around and looking for the escalator for an adventure and I had no walking or running restrictions), and perhaps some useful naivety, but when we are older, we have experience and reflection to draw from (perhaps an older parent would not "fret" (heh, heh, heh pun intentional) over minor issues that an less experienced parent would not be as concerned about. This is where the parental chant "Wait till you have kids" comes from. Joey, feel is certainly extremely important, I am not sure you can "learn" something like that if you don't have it to begin with, but I will choose to believe you can develop it at least. And reading plus theory ........ Just had to pull a Jeff Berlin on ya'. You are a treat to have around here! | ||
| murray
Intermediate Member Username: murray Post Number: 126 Registered: 7-2007 |
Noddy Holder from Slade - now that's my sort of accent!!! Glynn | ||
| tubeperson
Advanced Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 356 Registered: 5-2005 |
How about " I certainly was in the right" from the making of Dark side of the Moon? Or, "there is no dark side, its all dark" (same source). | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1440 Registered: 6-2002 |
"Right...right, Your bloody well right..." Great thread folks! | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 487 Registered: 9-2004 |
I started playing at 14 and still don't have it down! Dave | ||
| piotr_c
Junior Username: piotr_c Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2012 |
Ha... I saw a recent interview of God Stanley Clarke saying that he was taking a few months off "to pratice and take his playing up a few notches..." I wonder if this SMV tour got to him and made him want to try more "banging" techiques...??? If the man himself has to practice some more, well EInstein was right with his relativity theory ;-)) | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 3085 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yum riy-it there yam are Glyn, are day think about im. Bostin, i'm off fer a kipper tie. lol Jazzyvee | ||
| tubeperson
Advanced Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 357 Registered: 5-2005 |
Yes the learning never stops! Keep on keepin' on. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1905 Registered: 9-2002 |
S l a d e . . . . oh my, my, my, my mis-spent youth, Glynn. Ah well, G'dby to Jane, and Mama, We're All Crazee Now. I'll be diggin' out the Humble Pie, Savoy Brown, and Wishbone Ash now. Sheeeesshhh . . . . . that's it, I'll work on my Brit accent for a while ! ! ! J o e y | ||
| murray
Intermediate Member Username: murray Post Number: 128 Registered: 7-2007 |
Jazzyvee, are you at Birmingham Arts Fest this year or Rush Hour Blues? Glynn | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 3087 Registered: 6-2002 |
My band have been offered a spot at the rush hour blues session and one of the bands I play bass in are playing at arts fest this year so I will let you know when. | ||
| kimberly
Advanced Member Username: kimberly Post Number: 379 Registered: 1-2007 |
Hi Guys,  Good thread! To capture the gist of it *from my experience*. As stated previously, MM has an opinion and I say everyone has one or two or three or four opinions and it's all gonna depend on their/your mood, life experiences, phase of the moon and who knows what else. Everyone's different is the point and everyone will have their own style/accent based on their background and life experiences. Can someone improve or learn beyond a certain point/age? I'd say yes. Can they change their "accent"? I'd say yes again. For historical background/perspective. I began playing at age 15 and was playing in cover bands by the time I was 17. I played in bands and stayed on the road for more years than I care to remember. Nothing serious, just dance cover bands, also known as human Top 40 jukeboxes. By the time I was in my early 30's I was so burned out, I quit playing completely for 17 years. About 6-7 years ago I rediscovered my love of music. I tried three bands of different styles and didn't really connect 'inside' where my heart is. Then one day I saw Wooten on Youtube doing 'Amazing Grace'. Wow! Now that was some serious music! And that was what really got me playing seriously again. I wanted to play like him. But....no way I could. Different style/technique and physical challenges on my part (missing picking hand fingers due to childhood injury) and upside down strings, being 'set in my ways'.... Anyway, I started playing around doing what I could do and I grew and grew and grew. Did I say I grew? I play nothing like I did 30 odd years ago. Not even close. Do I have an accent? Sure, but *only on certain styles* that go back to my roots. I'll say for sure, that accent doesn't exist when I'm playing my material as a soloist. Very, very different style wise, technique wise and mainly heart wise. To sum it up (finally). ;) Anyone can learn to play at any age or time in their life. How good they get is going to depend of *how much they want to* barring physical challenges AND how much they practice. Someone who practices an hour a week is not going to progress like someone who practices an hour a day seven days a week. Practice two hours a day, seven days a week. Three hours.... as many as you can 'afford' with your available time and around your obligations. You will learn and you will get good. And you will have an accent, but it won't guide your playing especially as you *progress musically beyond where you started*. Ask me how I know. ;) Of course, this is all my opinion guided by everything I've ever done of which most is likely unique to me and me alone. But....if it worked/works for me, why can't it work for you or anyone else? Best Regards, Kimberly | ||
| tubeperson
Advanced Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 361 Registered: 5-2005 |
Kimberly, you are an outstanding and incredible person. Keep up your journey in music and life as well. I am quite inspired to say the least! | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1939 Registered: 11-2004 |
My opinion...don't listen to famous people however good they are, just play and enjoy and as far as the accent I bet most of us on here can tell the difference between Miller & Wooton, Jaco and Haslip and King & Clarke. At the age off 55 I rarely take on board people's opinions 'cos that's what they are..there point of view and no more..now advice..that's a different matter!! | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 3232 Registered: 10-2002 |
Terry and I are both from the North East so we'll always sound like Jimmy Nail no matter how hard we try :-) Graeme | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1940 Registered: 11-2004 |
Wha' aye man, weet ya sayin' there, havna a cloo whit ya taaking aboot marra | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5205 Registered: 7-2004 |
Historically in baseball, the greatest most gifted players have generally made lousy coaches. Ted Williams was born as one of the naturally greatest hitters of all time, but he couldn't teach someone else how to hit. The few who are graced with the special talent often really don't understand how the rest of us operate. Of course even the most gifted must still work at their craft and practice, practice, practice. If Marcus Miller means that if you're not born with "it", (which naturally manifests at an early age), you can't develop "it" at a later age, I would agree his position has some validity. But that doesn't mean someone who doesn't have "it" inherently can't work their ass off and get damn good at their craft, be it music, baseball, or most everything else. Pete Rose wasn't born with "it", but still became one of the all time great hitters. Someone sometime told me about the "Rule of 10,000". Spend 10,000 hours doing anything and you'll invariably get real good at it. More importantly, most of us do this for reasons other than money. Many of us make no money at all, but keep playing away. One doesn't have to have the chops of a Marcus Miller or a Stanley Clarke to have a complete blast playing. And, ultimately, isn't that why we spend all this money on Alembics and equipment and schlepp it around? It's fun! Just my lil' ol' opinion. Bill, tgo | ||
| yogalembic
Intermediate Member Username: yogalembic Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2012 |
'Reckon we all should just grab a bass, tune up, and play. : )) | ||
| yogalembic
Intermediate Member Username: yogalembic Post Number: 133 Registered: 5-2012 |
'Reckon we all should just grab a bass, tune up, and play. : )) And, as Bobby Vega says, "Fingers, pick or thumb...just get it done!" | ||
| 5sicks
Junior Username: 5sicks Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2010 |
The "Peter Principle" applies. Once you think you have become adept at something the natural evolution is to try to take the next step. If that next step is inept then return to what you know and work harder at it until you are ready for that next step. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1242 Registered: 5-2002 |
I wasn't born with "it" and probably still don't have "it" but I have a lot of fun, get paid and people seem to like what I do, so while I usually cringe when I have to listen back to myself and sometimes while I'm playing, I'm not going to let any of this deter me from keeping on keeping on. I got to play in Civic Center Park in Denver this past weekend through a booming PA in front of a few thousand people and at one point, I turned off my stage amp (experimenting with bridging my QSC CX1202V and apparently it's too loud for one of my guitar players. Oops!) and just listened to the PA fill the park (the sound guy loves bass) and it was a great feeling, which is what it's all about. The rest of it is just athletics and politics, which are not so interesting to me in the music world. 10,000 hours is probably a conservative estimate of the time I've spent practicing and I started playing music when I was three. So, starting early and putting in thousands of hours is still no guarantee of anything, but is evidence of sheer hard headedness. (Message edited by edwin on August 13, 2012) | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 3099 Registered: 6-2002 |
Correct me if I'm wrong, You guys started learning English way before you got to your early teens and from what I could hear you all clearly, still had American accents when I met you guys at the California meet earlier this year. It was only Steve and myself who had authentic English voices therefore no accent. :-) Mica's accent is pretty cute tho so I guess she started learning English after her early teens.... lol Jazzyvee | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1784 Registered: 2-2005 |
J-V, You bring up a funny point. I have a cousin that has been in the London area for 25 or so years. As we grew up she had a southern US accent (although not the accent of the deep south). We had a chance to talk recently and I noticed she had what I would consider and English accent. I grew up with as an Air Force Brat. This meant moving every two or three years. I found, much to my parents chagrin, that I would adopt the accent and speech of the area I was living in. To this day if I return to the areas I lived as a child I find I will drift into the local tongue after a day or two. As far as who speaks the correct English, the only thing that comes to mind is people separated by a common language. Keith | ||
| hankster
Advanced Member Username: hankster Post Number: 288 Registered: 6-2004 |
An accent as in Gilberto singing the English words to Ipanema? Or Flora Purim singing "You're Everything"? I love Marcus, but his observation about accents is meaningless. Everyone has one, no matter what language, musical or otherwise, they are speaking. And many are beautiful. What would a pure, unaccented sentence, or musical expression sound like? You'll never know, because you'll never hear one. | ||
| piotr_c
Junior Username: piotr_c Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2012 |
Well I can tell you who has a nice slooooww swiss accent..... my fingers straining to play semiquavers at 70 bpm... and I need to get to be able to play them at 144 bpms to try out "school days"... When you're born in Switzerland, it must be genetic... Practice, here I come...!!! | ||
| piotr_c
Junior Username: piotr_c Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2012 |
Talking about lightning fingers, anybody knows this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGTbW1nuSic&feature=youtube_gdata_player The name is Vicenzo Maurogiovanni. Certainly has an Italian accent when speaking english, but wow... he really masters his craft...! Lots of other non-slap stuff on youtube, but sound is really not great. First time I see this guy... Seems to have won the euro-bass day 2007. | ||
| peoplechipper
Advanced Member Username: peoplechipper Post Number: 295 Registered: 2-2009 |
The more I've read this thread, I realize that Marcus Miller is coming from a very narrow perspective; a studio guy trying to fit into any gig doesn't want an 'accent' even though some producers hire them because they perceive one in their playing...everyone else NEEDS an accent in order to be useful and relevant...just like a drum machine should not be able to replace your drummer, a bass program should not replace your bassist...Tony | ||
| brianclarkebert
New Username: brianclarkebert Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2012 |
I agree with the 10,000 hour principle, but as others have said music is a journey without a destination. I surpassed that benchmark quite a long time ago, i love to practice but yet i'll never be satisfied. It's just Miller's opinion, he's not God. B. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1950 Registered: 11-2004 |
I agree with all above, it can be quite damaging for any young player(13 and above) who may look upon that interview and give up before even trying. Someone of his stature should not be quoting statements ' rhythm can only be learned at infanthood' He should be encouraging players to keep practicing their instrument what ever it may be. Mark King didn't learn to play the drums until he was in his teens then he moved to bass when he was 21 and he can definitely can give Mr Miller a run for his money. | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 3110 Registered: 6-2002 |
Here is Victor Wooten's viewpoint on music as a language. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yRMbH36HRE Jazzyvee |
