| Author | Message | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 312 Registered: 9-2002 |
This morning, I sat in the car waiting on Mrs. Wilson. Flipping thru the radio stations, I ran across the Vanderbuilt University station, 'college radio' at its best. They played a live 'Eyes of The World' and I was wondering about several things: Were they ALWAYS out of tune with each other? It always seems that way, though I must admit my one Dead album "Europe 72" is not as bad as the other times I run across them. I was struck by the guitar tones, in that they sound like they were still playing thru preamp/power amp rigs. The tones were mighty clean and the lighter distortion they did use just did not seem like the typical stack overdrive. Did they stay with that type of setup thru their history? I thought this particular version (I have no idea where it came from) was a very honest sounding live album, but I felt a little too honest about their vocals. I wished their harmonies were a little tighter, mixed a little more up front. Or is it just me that I'm missing the point that the Dead were so loved just for these little production/performance quirks? J o e y | ||
| hollis
Senior Member Username: hollis Post Number: 410 Registered: 11-2003 |
I heard an interview with Mickey Hart talking about the harmonies of Crosby Stills and Nash. He said something like, "We can't sing like them, and they can't play like us." I thought that pretty much summed up Dead vocals. I don't think I ever heard them with their instruments out of tune, but then again, maybe I missed those shows. I know that every time I play along with the Dead on DVD or CD, I'm in tune with them. And I'm tuned to pitch. Sorry, no help here... | ||
| susan
Moderator Username: susan Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm a long term Dead Head with close associations to same. After attending/working many live performances both for the PA and Live Recording of them in equally as many venues, my opinion is that they were in tune most of the time. However, that being said, no they can't do harmonies like CSNY. They are often slightly yet enchantingly off key particularly Jerry. But hey, wasn't that part of their charm? I think so. And in defense of CSNY, they play equally as good as GD, just a different style. BTW- Stephen Stills since I was 14 has always been one of my fav guitarists. -susan | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 671 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Dead vocals were too often painful to the ears. Garcia's voice and pitch were inconsistent, to put it politely. Weir typically sang on key, but had poor moments as well. I've always suspected the prevalence of live recordings of varying quality amplified the problem. Nonetheless, they held up well enough to entertain with their vocals (usually) and their instrumental play was always fascinating, stirring and often beautiful. I reconciled long ago (because of an unfortunate case of relatively good pitch) to make the allowances necessary to appreciate the enormous number of good things about their music. Bill, the bass one | ||
| lbpesq
Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ah Jerry. I sure do miss him. I always felt the same way about Jerry's vocals as I do about Dylan's. Neither man was born with a great musicial voice. Yet both communicate incredible emotion through their singing. Someone like Joan Baez is, for me, the opposite. She has a great voice that fails to move me at all. Listen to her sing John Prine's "Hello In There" She takes a great melancholy, wistful song and sings it happy. Jerry would take a song and tell you a story. Listen to "Wharf Rat" and you can close your eyes and smell the brine and stale urine. When Jerry sang, you believed him, he put his entire being into it. You could hear how much he loved the music. And don't forget about Pigpen. Also not classically a great voice, yet I've heard few sing the blues any better. As far as the Dead's harmonies, there were many times when they hit them and sounded great. Around 1970 they worked some with CSN and did probably their best singing on Workingman's Dead and American Beauty. Some wonderful harmonies there. As far as singing off-key, the only one that ever made me winch was Donna Jean, and even she hit her notes once in a while. Bill, the guitar one | ||
| zappahead
Member Username: zappahead Post Number: 97 Registered: 10-2002 |
The Dead have probably the biggest ups and downs on any band I can think of. When they are at their best I dont think theres any band who plays better. When they are at their worst, well, its not gonna be pretty. Im not too sure about them being "out of tune". I know Ive seen shows where the sound was terrible and Ive always blamed that on their set up and the fact that some arenas and a lot of outdoor venues were just not built for concerts. There was always a problem, IMO, with the volume of certain instruments and Ive read comments in some of their books and it appears that the blame is simply on their crew. Ive been at concerts where you literally cannot hear anything coming from a person yet you can clearly see them playing. This happened a lot to the keyboard players, at times to Bob Weir and even to Phil Lesh. Im no pro by any stretch but I think someone was doing a poor job in the set up or the mixing of the music. I think Bob can sing, at the very least he is a great live performer when he carries a tune. I thought Brent was a good singer, I liked Vince too, but just about everyone else was up and down to me. I never liked the females in the various bands much, even the recent ones and Ive never been big on Lesh singing either. He has a very hard time carrying a tune. Jerry could sing when he wanted too, much like Dylan, but neither are obviously gonna bring the house down with stirring vocals. Still both are effective and have their moments for certain. | ||
| lbpesq
Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 64 Registered: 7-2004 |
Russ(zappahead): Your comment about "ups & owns" reminded me of a piece I read many years ago. I think it was an interview with Weir where, in response to a question about the ups & downs, he said something to the effect of "When you go diving for pearls, sometimes you come up with clams." This illustrates what, to me, is one of the main attractions of the Dead. They were willing to dive for pearls and chance the clams in front of an audience. Very few bands are willing to take chances on stage. The Dead, at their best, were almost allergic to playing it safe. Bill, the guitar one | ||
| susan
Moderator Username: susan Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill (TGO) I couldn't agree with you more regardng how Jerry could put a tune across to an audience and somehow make an emotional connection with each person. It was his special talent. Same thing for Dylan. Neither of their singing "styles" ever made me wince. Pigpen vocals: true grit "Lovelight" Live Dead album. Not to mention his physical charisma. Regarding: Donna & Joan Baez as vocalists, I have one word "Snore" ZZzzzzzz...... -susan | ||
| hollis
Senior Member Username: hollis Post Number: 411 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hi Susan, I too am a huge Steven Stills fan. I first saw him live with Buffalo Springfield, his guitar work is now and always has been as tasty as it gets. His first solo album is right up there in the vicinity of an ever increasing list of favorites. Jerry may not have always hit the "correct note", but he always got the feeling of the song across. He did that as well as anyone I've ever heard. I just loved watching him play and sing his heart out. | ||
| dadabass2001
Advanced Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 265 Registered: 6-2002 |
Nobody has mentioned that, as far as I could tell, the GD never used effects on conceert vocals (no reverb, no chorusing, just dry). And given their push for pure concert sound (The Wall etc), they truely were letting everything hang out. I still love that karma! Kinda like friends playing around a campfire with wooden music (a nod to Crosby). Only they could groove, scream, jive, and rock like there was no tomorrow. I miss Jerry too. Mike | ||
| zappahead
Member Username: zappahead Post Number: 98 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hey Bill, as far as the "ups and downs" go, Ill take my lumps for the "ups" that the Dead could manage. Honestly Ive seen a great many shows and Ive only seen a small handfull of shows that were in the "downs" category. The good shows by far outweighed any bad ones and their best shows that I saw made any kind of lowlights a faded memory. I have never seen another band who was as capable of being as good as the Dead were so naturally you could get let down because of your own expectations at times. Whats a bit wierd though is that I found the Jerry Garcia band shows that I saw over the years to be consistently great. I used to see him whenever he came anywhere near DC and sometimes further out and his band was persistently amazing to me personally. I think it was in that format that I also saw most vividly the point Susan was making about how he could connect to you as an individual. Its not that he couldnt do that with the Dead, he did for sure, but he did it night in and night out when I saw him with the Jerry Band. Mike, I have heard effects in the recent Dead vocals, Bob specifically. Only on CDs that I have downloaded. Cant recall whether I ever heard any in the Jerry era. Off the top of my head I think you are right though. | ||
| tom_z
Junior Username: tom_z Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2004 |
I've been to shows where the Dead played and everyone danced (good old rock and roll) and I've been at shows when the Dead absolutely transformed the whole place - sent the crowd reeling into aesthetic arrest. Moments of madness and joy. In the end I always thought the Grateful Dead played it out on the edge - a very honest approach. The open communication they had with band members, the crowd, the cosmos, and the gods was a great thing to witness. Sometimes they rolled along like a bike with seven wheels and other times there was FUSION. With the Dead it seemed the whole was always far greater than the sum of it's parts, so Jerry's soulful crooning or a risky chord voicing from Bobby never bothered me in the least. Speaking of Stephen Stills - I remember an interview he gave in which he said that the Dead were " . . . the greatest damn garage band in the world . . . " Incidentally, some of my favorite guitar work of Stills' is on his Manassas recordings. Tom (Message edited by tom_z on October 12, 2004) | ||
| jalevinemd
Intermediate Member Username: jalevinemd Post Number: 109 Registered: 12-2003 |
Guitar World was a little bit harsh on Jerry this month. They listed (in their opinion) the 100 Worst Riffs, Licks and Solos Of All Time and said that "Jerry's solos always served up more noodles than lunchtime in Chinatown..." I don't know, maybe more noodles than the take out place down the street...but all of Chinatown? Please! Jonathan | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 313 Registered: 9-2002 |
Thank to you all, and I really appreciate Susan coming in to speak from her experience with the Dead. Yes m'am, I've always admired SStills and Tom, I thought the Manassas project was fabulous and had a LOT of unfufilled potential. While no DeadHead, I ALWAYS admired their uncommercial attitude and their great grace with their fans. One of my deepest connections is the live Allmans/Fillmore recordings, and while that ABB came from a different direction, they had a similar attitude to the long improvs. Thank You All, J o e y | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1683 Registered: 9-2002 |
I' ve always been a S Stills fan. When I was 16 I used to look around for Steven Stills shirts (in fact this were plain light blue shirts with white lining ans button down collar) because we saw pictures of him -solo and with CSN&Y- in magazines. (Oh yeah ...and my addiction to American Football shirts is also thanks to him and the picture on the back of his first solo-album).Me too I was/am a Manassas fan. The bassplayer (Calvin "fuzzy" Samuels)had a big influence on my playing. I only saw them on a DUtch television show when they performed in Amsterdam. We didn't have television at home that time and I begged a neighbour of ours -who had cable so Dutch televisionstations- to see the show, what he as happy to grand. In that time I was surprised when I discovered that SS played also the bass on his first solo-album. Gratefull Dead ...nope ...never heard them and what I heard I didn't like a lot. Mayeb I listend to the wrong tracks. Anyway ...I heard so much about them that it is on my TO DO LIST for this year ...mmmmmmmm ...or next year ...whatever. Paul the bad one | ||
| trebor
New Username: trebor Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2004 |
What a great way to meander down memory lane. I had to mention at least once I have heard Jerry singing through some effects....."Whats become of the baby" on LiveDead HAD to be through some effects. robert "fab" | ||
| trebor
Junior Username: trebor Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2004 |
My meandering took a detour there on that post of mine, sorry it wasn't LiveDead that had "whats become of the baby". Of course it was Aoxomoxoa, its early here on the left coast.....sorry robert "fab" | ||
| pace
Member Username: pace Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2004 |
"They may not be the best at what they do, but they are the only ones who do what they do" -Bill Grahm Susan, A little off topic, but a couple of months back you mentioned doing a Series guitar for Neil Young. Do you recall the build details for this? Also Rick Danko mentioned once that he had a couple of Alembics (as a naive teen I thought he said 'Olympic')..... I havent been able to get close enough to Crosby's electric 12-string, but did you guys have anything to do with that one?!? Thanks, -Mike | ||
| s_wood
Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 93 Registered: 5-2002 |
Each to their own, I suppose. I've never been much of a Dead fan because their music doesn't really move me. However, I totally repect their relentless dedication (no pun intended) to their own muse, which is a quality sadly lacking in music today. They are one of the few bands that made a career out of doing exactly what they wanted - and who among us wouldn't wish for the same thing? Their live vocals are brutal sometimes, for sure, and the improvs don't always work, but I would rather listen to the Dead for their honesty and integrity than some Pro Tools fabrication. Pro Tools (when used to fix mistakes) is to music as Cheese Whiz is to food. Safe, but no flavor. I've just finished a gig with a band leader who insisted that we rehearse while listening to a click track. It made our time more prefect, for sure, but for me it also sucked the life right out of our groove. Music is the most perfect form of human communication, and anything that sucks the humanity out of it is a bad thing. Humans make mistakes, you know - it's o.k. For me, perfection in music is a means, not an end. If it feels good, if it grooves, if it speaks to the soul - it's music...even if it isn't perfect. Man, am I in a bad mood. Time to go hit my open A string over and over and let it ring until I find peace. | ||
| 811952
Advanced Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 273 Registered: 10-2003 |
Steve, I gig a lot with a drummer who has a thingy on his snare drum which shows him the tempo he's playing, rather than simply dictating a tempo to him. It's pretty cool, and allows for things to ebb and flow as needed without getting "off click." It is extremely useful for rehearsals. He doesn't use it for gigs, but more as a diagnostic tool for tempos. John | ||
| echo008
Intermediate Member Username: echo008 Post Number: 115 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hi, Speaking of "Insight into the Grateful Dead" I wanted to recommend a book I am currently reading "Home Before Daylight" By Steve Parish. Great, Great, Book if you are a fan of the Band and Jerry. He even mentions hanging out at Alembic back in the Day... - Tom | ||
| hollis
Senior Member Username: hollis Post Number: 418 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thanks for the tip. | ||
| the_mule
Advanced Member Username: the_mule Post Number: 285 Registered: 1-2004 |
The Grateful Dead moves me on different levels. You get 'it' or you don't, you connect or it just fades away. Love or hate, yin or yang, for me it's something spiritual I don't have with many bands or artists. Well, back on earth: I've got some great live recordings which I consider to be amongst the best music in my collection, but I'm also very fond of Aoxomoxoa & American Beauty, IMHO their best studio albums. The Dead were able to do a VERY good job vocally every now and then. Just check out the entire American Beauty album and St. Stephen from the classic Live/Dead album (especially that magical middle section not found on the studio version) Wilfred | ||
| hollis
Senior Member Username: hollis Post Number: 420 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wilfred, I heartily agree. There’s no way to fully explain the depth of my feelings for their music. As for their vocals, I feel they’re always first rate on the studio recordings. And live, it’s the entire experience, vocals included, that moves me. Also, much the same as their playing, none of the vocals are anywhere near "easy". I've always admired their out on the edge ability. "Bent my ear to hear the tune And closed my eyes to see" | ||
| tom_z
Junior Username: tom_z Post Number: 45 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wilfred, Hollis, you're on to something with the concept that there is something indescribable about the Grateful Dead. For me, the live experience of a Dead show somehow resonates with something very basic inside of me. I listen to many kinds of music and really enjoy very tight and polished performances as well as soulful and raw playing, but I can't think of a live show that I'd rather experience than an evening with the Grateful Dead when they're firing on all cylinders. Jerry - Rest in peace. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 2002 Registered: 6-2000 |
I never liked the Dead's music when I was a kid - who likes what their parents like? Plus, I slept through countless shows as a baby, so the music used to put me to sleep. I always liked Truckin' from Europe '72 though. As a teenager, I still didn't "get it" as Wilfred put it. But friends kept encouraging me that I hadn't heard the "right" recording yet. I kept an open mind. Then one day my friend Don sent me the right tape - the last Filmore East show. That one made me "get it" in a big way. Plus, the setting was right. I was driving home through San Francisco on a nice balmy July day. I just kept turning it up louder and louder and louder. My friend John described the Dead as a band that was "willing to have a hundred bad shows to find the greatest show ever." | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 320 Registered: 9-2002 |
Mica, driving thru SanFran on the right day with the right tunes in the car is QUITE the experience: I visited SanFran every summer in the late 60s/early 70s. One afternoon my aunt took us up to Mill Valley and The James Gang's "Walk Away" was playing on KSFO as we came off the Golden Gate and went up the hill into the tunnels with the rainbows painted on the openings . . . I can NEVER hear that tune without that mental video replaying itself. J o e y | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 602 Registered: 9-2003 |
You always got an honest performance: If they felt like sh*t or were all-highed up or were feeling great, you knew it because that's how they played and sang. Nobody will ever accuse Jerry of having a great singing voice. His playing, while much more consistent than his vocals, reached for a few clunkers now and again as well. Who cares! The music is great, and despite all the flaws, they always somehow pulled it off. That music moves me more than any other, period. Personally, while Jerry has had his share of off-key moments...actually I think he has more voice cracking and/or out-of-breath moments, possibly due to his (lack-of) physical conditioning and/or substance abuse....I think Donna Jean was the main "culprit" most of the time. Don't get me wrong, her voice is decent enough, but she had more than a few wailing, shrieking out-of-tune moments. When you have a few people singing at once, one bad note wrecks the whole deal. I agree with Russs in that I also think Jerry was more consistent with the JGB than with the Dead. Maybe it was because there were less cooks to spoil the broth (Jerry either sang alone or had pro female backup singers). Maybe it was a case of higher motivation...he always did his side projects during his most creative periods, and they were all his calls. Who knows? You certainly can't ask him now, LOL! J/K. | ||
| flaxattack
Intermediate Member Username: flaxattack Post Number: 185 Registered: 4-2004 |
i agree with susan. Jerry did not only sing a song as much as he became the song. So his nuances are most important. Thats the difference between the good ones and the better ones(singers). I might have a better voice than jerry, but i have not reached that "feel" that he or a dylan or even a sinatra have oh yeah i forgot- its called soul! i knocked my bands socks off last week with the best so many roads i have hever done. besides, who ever went to a dead show for the vocals anyway? | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 617 Registered: 9-2003 |
BTW, for all you Dead Heads out there (or for those at least curious about a GD SHOW), try this link: http://www.archive.org/audio It's the Live Music Archive, and it's got just about EVERY Dead show (including some shows BEFORE there was a Dead)...all for free to download and decent sound quality to boot. I've been re-living my "childhood" by revisiting shows I was at back in the day and am exploring shows I missed but friends were at and shows I used to have on tape. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!! |
