| Author | Message | ||
| davekoch
Junior Username: davekoch Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2003 |
In my search for a new 410, I been reading good reviews on the Schroeder cabs. Know anyone that uses them? Why the angled speakers? Are they smaller than the usual 410 box? They seem to require a LOT of power. Prices, weight, dimensions, etc. Compared to Acme Low B-4, Epifini, Aguilar, EA, Eden, etc. Anyone? | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 650 Registered: 3-2004 |
They are not much smaller than the regular 4x10 even though all of the 10s aren't front-facing, but they do seem to be lighter even without using neo speakers. The measurements are 23x23x16 and 78 lbs. Compare that with some other cabinets: Eden 410T: 23x23x18.5, 90 lbs Eden 410XLT: 23x27.5x18.5, 98 lbs Eden 410XST: 23x25x18.5, 95 lbs Aguilar GS410: 28.25x22.50x16.625, 98 lbs Aguilar S410: 24x22.50x16.625, 83 lbs So it's in the ballpark. Power wise, I am told that while they can handle a lot of power, they are also pretty efficient and don't necessarily require that much power. I suppose it depends on how loud you want to go. The Schroeder site is at http://www.schroedercabinets.com and has limited information. On the other hand, there's a thread over at Talkbass discussing these cabinets that has over 1000 posts on it. It's at http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133045. One key claim from the thread is that these cabinets sound much bigger than they are. The claim is that a 4x10 can replace a stack, and the smaller 1210 (23x16x16, 47 lbs) can replace a 4x10. Another is that these cabinets project very clearly. I am seriously considering either a 1210 or a 1212 to pair with my Super Redhead as an extension cabinet (both are 4 ohm) to add some more low end. That will feed the cabinet 225 watts, and I am told that it's enough to make it sing. On the other hand, I am also considering a Stewart World 2.1 power amp and doing away with the Super Redhead all together. He has frequency response curves for the individual speaker components and the 12 looks stronger all the way across the range compared to the 10. Unfortunately, there's no similar spec sheet for the cabinets. With all the hoopla at the Talkbass site, I was hoping that some of our Alembic users would actually have tried these things to give a hands-on report, but it hasn't seemed like it so far. | ||
| davekoch
Junior Username: davekoch Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jorg emailed me back and mentioned his 410 is louder than the Eden 410XLT. Being I've heard Edens are among the loudest cabs out there, this cab must really rock. I must look into this. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 708 Registered: 7-2003 |
These little guys really look interesting. I'd love to hear more (I guess after NAMM). I've always believed there were design alternatives that could provide significantly boosted performance with a modest size, weight and driver sizes. I used to have a Karlson cab with a single 15 that kicked out a very strong and even tone, compared to traditional vented cabs (http://alembic.com/club/messages/449/10004.html?1084241382). It combined a folded horn (picking up the sound off the back of the single driver) and a cleverly designed horn design off the front of the driver. Good sound. The problem was that all this engineering led to a HEAVY box (it contained about 50% more plywood, once you added in the weight of all the extra baffles inside). If someone has found a better way to capitalize on untapped design potential (and solved for the extra manufacturing cost and kept the weight down), that's really exciting. | ||
| davekoch
Junior Username: davekoch Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2003 |
Yes, it is exciting, and Jorg seems to be reputable. I think I'll buy a 410. It's as light as the Acme B-4 (78 pounds), specs seem good (will handle the low B well enough - seems like the Acme might be better on the low B), and the box is a little smaller than my Eden 410T. But of course, hearing/gigging is the real proof. I've read some of the TB megathread. I keep hearing that they sound very good, cut through in a live band, and they're loud (I can always turn down ;-). I nearly bought an Acme last week. But, I'm "feeling" more inclined to buy the Schroeder. It seems to be workhorse cab, which is what I look for in a cab - as compared to a "boutique" cab. (Yikes, I'm rambling - hope it's not just GAS.) | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 655 Registered: 3-2004 |
If you ask on TB, you might find that someone in your neighborhood has one that you can see/hear. They also have a liberal return policy, though you do eat a lot of shipping cost. | ||
| davekoch
Junior Username: davekoch Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2003 |
After speaking with Jorg this afternoon, he seems very nice and straight-up. I ordered a Schroeder 410 tonight. I'm excited. Thanks for all your input! | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 661 Registered: 3-2004 |
Let us know when you get it! I am really thinking hard about one of the smaller ones. Will you have it soon, or is there a wait for it to be built? | ||
| davekoch
Junior Username: davekoch Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jorg said he can send it out before the NAMM show. So, I'm guessing it should arrive within a couple weeks. I'll let you know how it sounds. Again, to all of you, you've been soooooooooooo helpful to me in my gear search. I do thank you!! Very, very smart, kind, and polite forum (my favorite combination). Without a doubt, the best forum I'm aware of. And I've tried a few of them. Dave | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave, Please do let us know your findings on these cabinets. I'm also giving alot of consideration to the 1210. Tried wading thru the mega-thread on TB..gave up at about page 47. Gary | ||
| davekoch
Junior Username: davekoch Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2003 |
Gary, Sure will. I made it through a bit of it also. Definitely need high-speed access for that one. Dave | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave, Did you get er ? | ||
| davekoch
Junior Username: davekoch Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2003 |
I received my Schroeder 410 yesterday. After 1/2 hour of comparing (using F1X/PLX1602) it to my Eden 410T, I took my Eden 410T out to be consigned. The Schroeder 410 is definitely a keeper - it's a no-brainer. The low end (40mhz) is so much better, stronger, cleaner with a whole lotta punch. The F1X makes the highs warm and clean. It doesn't have that Eden high-end "sizzle", as someone here referred to. It also seems a LOT louder, while retaining the same definition as it get louder. With my Eden, my Modulus VJ sounded "warmer" than my Modulus M92 5-string (pre-Sweet Spot). But with the Schroeder, the M92 immediately sounded great throughout the entire range. I probably just haven't dialed in the VJ settings yet (SD Pro-Active pups with J-Retro Deluxe pre). | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave Congrats..thanks for the mini review. I just ordered a 1210 cabinet, hopefully that will let me a achieve the sound level etc and be able to get rid of the Mesa cabinets. I spoke to Jorg,very nice guy,he lead me to believe I could get the results I'm looking for,since I use mostly a 4x10 cabinet now. From 90 to 47 lbs..I like that. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 719 Registered: 3-2004 |
The discussion I had with him has me leaning toward the 1212. Here's what I got out of it: The 1210 is easier to get a good sound out of in rooms with bad acoustics. It tightens up more quickly, so you hear it better if you have to stand right next to it. The 1212 is a bit louder with better bottom for the same amount of power input. It can be EQed to sound very much like the 1210 if you want that, but it takes a bit more fiddling to get the cut-through tone. If you're standing at least 5 feet away from it, yo'll hear it just fine, but it does take a little bit of space. What all this means in practice? Only your ears can tell you. I suspect that the 1210 will be a little tighter and teh 1212 a bit warmer/rounder. Kind of like the difference between a traditional 4x10 and a 2x15 (my words, not his). I looked at the specs for the driver, and the 12 seems to have a flatter response throughout the entire range that the 10 covers and then some. Both seem to have a Q-switch like hump in their curves around 2K. The hump is more pronounced with the 10, and response has really fallen off by 4K where the 12 reamins strong and only starts to fall off at 4K. I don't know what the crossover to the horn looks like to know if the higher frequency power even matters. Take a look here: http://www.schroedercabinets.com/drivers.htm Of course, that doesn't represent the response of the cabinet, just that of the drivers themselves. Who knows if I am even interpreting this in a reasonable fashion. Jorg does say that these cabinets sound great with as little as 200 watts pumped through them, so there's not much incentive to really crank up the power, even though they can handle it. I think if I were using just the one cab with a four string, I'd go 1210. With a five, I'd favor the 1212, but that's just gut feel. | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2003 |
I had pretty much the same conversation with Jorg. He suggests that the 1210 is a better 'all around' cabinet, and the 1212 has a little more in the lower mids/lower end, a bit more rounder sound. After talking to Jorg I'd agree with Bob's assessment,4 string/5 string comparison. He also said these cabinets are very efficient,require little power,and can be very loud. | ||
| davekoch
Junior Username: davekoch Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2003 |
gare, Congrats to you on ordering the 1210! I'm anxious to read your review. IMO, everything Jorg told me is true. He is very nice, and I don't think for a second that it's an act. Personally, I like 10's, but I've never gigged with 12's - 4x12 is enticing, but probably too big/heavy for this geezer. I've only played a single 12 Aggie in a music store. I was not impressed. In a band situation, I like to be able to push more air, so that's why I chose the 410. (My Ampeg BA115 handles small gigs surprisingly well.) If you don't need to push air like a 410, I'm sure your 1210 will work out great. These cabs are loud and clear. | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thx Dave I understand the geezer thing, hernia,torn tendon,torn cartilage. My intent is to downside and try to retain some fullness etc. 90 lb cabinets dont seem to appeal to me anymore. I recently picked up a used Mesa Walkabout head, the 2 together would be about 60 lbs total. If needed in the future,a second cabinet isnt out of the question. And I'd be happy to give my impressions in a few weeks when it shows up. | ||
| davekoch
Member Username: davekoch Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2003 |
The Schroeder 410 is 78 lbs. | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 141 Registered: 11-2003 |
My cabinet was delivered today ! And wouldnt you know it, todays one of the few days I have to work late... More info in a day or so. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 749 Registered: 3-2004 |
I can't wait....Tell me now!!! Don't you feel a bug coming on or something? I think you need to go home and rest! | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2003 |
I am a bit queezey..but I'm the only one here for the next 3 hours...oh the humanity ! | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 751 Registered: 3-2004 |
Guess we both have to tough it out... I believe there's a break-in procedure as well and people seem to be following it, so take care. -Bob | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1313 Registered: 5-2002 |
Looking forward to your review. | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 145 Registered: 11-2003 |
Ok..here goes, the 1210 scientific living room test ! My first reaction was amazement. Alot of sound comes out of that little box. The cabinet is roughly the size of an Aguilar GS112. And it is loud for it's size, don't worry, the porcalain kitties that jumped off the wall are ok ! Ok, now the volume is down. The frequency response is rated at 40 to 18k, and it does cover the range of a 4 string nicely. For comparason I used a Mesa 4x10 w/EV's. I drove this with a Mesa 400+. The Schroeder sounds as full (to my ear) as the 4x10, with better lows and more pronounced mids and highs. There is a pronounced bump in the mids around 200hz from what I can tell. It's not at all unpleasant, but it's there. I've never been partial to horns, but the horn in this cabinet is sweet sounding, even cranked up full. Not at all harsh or brittle sounding. I moved around the room as I murdered a Bach piece and noticed the sound didn't seem to change off axis at all. Overall I found this to be a very articulate cabinet with smooth response thoughout the frequency range, and efficient. It's rated at 102db. I haven't had a chance to try my Walkbout head thru it yet as it's not at home. As Dave said, it's a keeper ! My plan now is to get rid of the Mesa cabinets, it's a no brainer, 47 lbs vs about 90. And possibly another 1210 in the future..just to add a little more depth and fullness. I recently checked out Epi 210 cabinet, which I really liked, but I'd take the Schroeder over it, not only does it project better, it has a lower price tag. Oh one last thing..the smell. When I took it out of the shipping box I noticed sort of a pipe smoke kind of smell, not obnoxious,just unexpected, we narrowed it down to the smell of vanilla. (did you notice that Dave ?) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1324 Registered: 5-2002 |
Gare, great review; thanks! I have this bias that tells me a folded cabinet will sound boomy and not as tight as a cab with regular front facing speakers. But it sounds like these Schroeders don't have that problem. | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 147 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thx Dave Just before I did the babbling review, I sent Jorg an email saying I got the cabinet etc. Before I could finish my babbling he replied. This guys the real thing. G | ||
| davekoch
Member Username: davekoch Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2003 |
Gare, You said, "There is a pronounced bump in the mids around 200hz". What notes are at 200hz? I did notice the vanilla-like smell, but I had to be close to the cab. Maybe my sniffer isn't as good as it used to be. Dave Houck, On certain stages, I got comments that my Eden 410T was boomy. The Schroeder 410 is much more defined and has more punch than the Eden; I haven't noticed a boomy-ness. But it does get very loud. I have no doubt that it can replace my Eden 210T/410T combo for loud gigs, which was one of my main issues. And it weighs less (78lbs.) than the Eden 410T (90lbs.). | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 756 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dave- For bass, you're talking about the 12th fret G note on the G string for about 196 Hz. The A two frets up from that is at 220 Hz, and the F two frets down is about 175 Hz. Of course, we're just talking fundamentals there. All the lower notes do have overtones that will result in sound in that frequency range as well. We're not just talking about a few loud notes here. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1345 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Dave; I might have to try one of these at some point. That and the Dr. Bass cabs. | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2003 |
Dave I have a parametric eq patched into the head..I did a quick sweep with the frequency control to locate 'the bump'. Like I said, it isn't overbearing or unpleasant. This may be the reason for the punchiness and Jorg claim that his cabinets cut thru better in a band situation. Of course I was kinda busy playing with my new toy to get into in depth research. | ||
| kilowatt
New Username: kilowatt Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2004 |
I sent Jorg an E-mail yesterday during the Super Bowl asking about some of his thoughts on which cabinet combo would be best for me. I received a reply back in 11 minutes. Needless to say, I was impressed! I am thinking of going with a 410 and a 1212 and running my F1-X / SF-2 in bi-amp and using one side of my QSC 3402 for high and one for low (410 high, 1212 low). As always, I am open to other suggestions so if anyone wants to chime in, feel free. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 757 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sounds like a BIG system. It would definitely be overkill for the bar gigs and small outdoor shows I do. The claim is that Jorg's 1210 is equal in volume to most peoples 4x10 cabinets, and the 1212 is supposed to be a little louder than the 1210. I have heard that people are replacing 6x10 cabs or 1x15/4x10 stacks with Jorg's 4x10 cabinet. That combo is going to be loud if you feed it the right power. There's a guy running a 1212 with a 1210, and I think that might be a more reasonable sized stack, but you know how much air you need to push. Check out the TalkBass thread (or at least the end of it if you don't have a spare week). Also, I think all of Jorg's cabs are pretty full-range, so I don't know how much bi-amping would buy you. -Bob | ||
| kilowatt
New Username: kilowatt Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2004 |
I sent Jorg another E-mail and he suggested running each cabinet full range. I don't run my systems with a loud stage volume, but I do like to feel a little shake when needed! I like the flexibility of two different cabinets so I can either run both, or choose one depending on the stage acoustics. I also asked about wheels and covers. Jorg stated that covers are available for both large and small cabinets and wheels could be added to the 410, though he uses a moving dolly for his gear. I still have to weigh out the pros & cons before ordering, but Jorg is very helpful. I am sure if I give him a call, all my questions will be answered. | ||
| gare
Intermediate Member Username: gare Post Number: 151 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hi Pete As Bob said..how much air do you need to push ? The 4x10 & 1212 combo may be overkill, unless you're playing big places. With my limited experience, I'd think a 1210 or 1212 would do for the local bar jobs. 2 1210's or a 1210/1212 combo would be nice. I'd also consider the 21012, goes lower than his other cabinets. Guess it depends on what you want to spend and move. Cuz I'm cheap, I also use a moving dolly..Home Depot 22 bucks. I also got the cover with my 1210..nicely padded. You may as well get the whole kit. Again I agree with Bob, you may not really get much out of bi-amping these cabinets. |
