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foth
New
Username: foth

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 3:57 am:   Edit Post

Hey, the idea of an extended B peghead rocks, don't ya think? Is there an Alembic version of this that I haven't seen?
davehouck
Senior Member
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 1169
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 8:33 am:   Edit Post

I don't recall seeing one, but I would imagine you could custom order one.
foth
New
Username: foth

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:05 am:   Edit Post

I was thinking that a longer B string would have increased string tension, thus making it more playable. My physics friends are telling me that the opposite is true...a longer B would have less string tension.
davehouck
Senior Member
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 1191
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 7:06 am:   Edit Post

Fodera features this extended B headstock on some of their basses. There are also some 5 strings with a 2 + 3 headstock configuration to lenghten the distance of the B string a little. I searched but could not find a good explantion of why this makes a difference. And I'm not good at understanding physics! I'm thinking that, for a given brand of string, the tension of the string between the nut and the bridge isn't going to change when the string is tightened to be in tune. I don't see where the distance between the nut and the tuning peg makes a difference to the tension of the string between the nut and the bridge when it's in tune. There are other members of this forum that have a better grasp of the physics; if they happen to notice this thread maybe they can shed some light of the subject. If you are really curious about this, and apparently you are, you could set up an experiment on your Rogue. The next time you have the strings off your bass, when you're oiling the fretboard, try tying the B string to a different tuning peg and then the regular peg and see if you can tell a difference.
811952
Advanced Member
Username: 811952

Post Number: 353
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post

The only difference, everything else being equal, with the total length of the B-string is that you'll have more length to stretch and a slightly looser feel (tautness perceptions being dependent on how much tension increases for a given deflection). The assumes that the string will stretch a given miniscule amount per inch of total taut length. The actual tension of the string is entirely dependent upon the length between the nut and bridge (scale), string gauge and the pitch to which it's tuned, as Dave pointed out. It's the relative elasticity that changes.
John
davehouck
Senior Member
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 1200
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 1:46 pm:   Edit Post

John; thanks, but I still don't fully understand. Do you mind elaborating further?
811952
Advanced Member
Username: 811952

Post Number: 354
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 2:42 pm:   Edit Post

Dave,
Say a given length of something stretches to 1.05 times normal (static) length under a given tension. A 9-foot length of said something stretches to 9.45 feet under that amount of tension, while A ten-foot length would stretch to 10.5 feet. The difference in this case being 0.05 feet of total stretch at that tension. I don't have the math in my head to do the tensions at a fixed amount of stretch, but you should be able to see the relationship. Theoretically, you will have to deflect the string farther with a longer tailpiece-to-peg distance than with a shorter distance to get the same note, having to adjust for stretching a longer length of string. To put it in more bass terms, with identical sets of strings and the same stiffness of neck, a Steinberger-ish bass will feel tighter than an Alembic or Fender of the same scale length. I hope I haven't thoroughly muddied the waters with my somewhat incoherent babble, I've got a class to teach and may not exactly be stating what my little brain thinks I'm stating in the clearest terms... ;)
John
davehouck
Senior Member
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 1204
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:02 pm:   Edit Post

I think I understand; and if I do then the effect would be just the opposite of the stated intended effect of some bass builders of having a tighter B by moving the post back away from the nut. I tried picturing a short rubber band and long rubber band laid over the same nut and bridge and tightened to produce the same pitch note when plucked. Pictured as such, I can see where the rubber band would have a "looser feel" and where you would have to "deflect the string farther".
lbpesq
Advanced Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 251
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:25 pm:   Edit Post

Hey guys:

Here's another example, I think. I have read that Hendrix preferred to use a right-handed strat strung backwards rather than a left-handed strat (which by the latter part of his all too brief career he could certainly have afforded). The reason is that by turning the righty upside-down, the lower strings travelled a greater distance to the tuner thus allowing for easier bends of the lower strings. Does this make sense and fit in with what you are trying to describe?

Bill, tgo
811952
Advanced Member
Username: 811952

Post Number: 355
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 3:51 pm:   Edit Post

Specifexactpreciselyessiree. Keep in mind that I am a physics lay-person, and do something entirely different for a living. I think maybe part of the perception (or maybe reality for that matter) is that having an extended headstock necessitates having more mass, which tends to increase the fundamental by changing the resonant frequency of the neck. I have a 35" scale Lakland that has an excellent B string, but still not as nice as the B string on the 34" scale Conklin 7-string I used to own (which had an impressively massive neck).
John
hydrargyrum
Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 56
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 9:52 am:   Edit Post

From: http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211.web.stuff/billington/strings.html

" The root frequency for a string is proportional to the suqare root of the tension, ... inversly proportional to its length, and [inversly proportional] to the square root of its mass per unit length (Roederer 109). This then accounts for the different masses and tensions of strings of the same length to create different pitches of guitar strings. Individual pitches on the strings are created by pressing down beneath a fret, thus affectively shortening the length of the string. This new string legth is L [1 - 1/(21/12)] where L is the length of the string at the last fret. or L/17.817. This number is figured out by determining that the semitone intervial, or relationship between two of the twelve notes that create a chromatic scale, is 212 (Evans 85). By applying this to itself, after 12 times, the length of the string is halved, creating an octave, or a frequency of twice the hertz.

How the string resonates on a simple pluck can be found. A relatively high ratio of transverse to longitudinal force along the string makes the face plate and bridge resonate, while higher longitudninal forces makes the back and cavity resonate more. These forces can be measured as FT = (T0 + dT)sin°, and FL = T0 + EA/L0 dL where T is the tension, ° is the angle between the string and the neck, E is the electic modulus of the string, A is the cross-sectional area, and L is the length of the string (Fletcher 209).

In adition, the method by which the string is plucked will also affect the sound produced. There are too many forces that interact with each other in too many complex ways to list them all. In itÝs lightest a guitar can be viewed as the simple harmonic motion of a string, but the sound representing that sine wave is quite different than that of the guitar. It is all the unmeasurable, and unique qualities on the guitar that truly make it sound the way it does."
811952
Advanced Member
Username: 811952

Post Number: 356
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post

Kevin,
Compared to yours, my brain is made of sawdust and metal shavings.
John
davehouck
Senior Member
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 1214
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post

Yes, but the vibration of strings causes the sawdust and metal shavings to align themselves into interesting patterns!
811952
Advanced Member
Username: 811952

Post Number: 357
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post

A primitive psychodelia, if you will? :-)
hollis
Senior Member
Username: hollis

Post Number: 592
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post

Pretty colors too!
lbpesq
Advanced Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 252
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post

Help, Mr. Wizard!
Drizzle, drezzle, drazzle, drome.
Time for this one to come home.

Bill, tgo
foth
New
Username: foth

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 12, 2005 - 1:36 pm:   Edit Post

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the patterns will be paisley.
Alchemy: lead into gold, 35" B string tension from a 34" bass...
Thanks to all of you for the enlightenment. Now if I can just keep from thinking about all of this while in the middle of a song!

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