| Author | Message | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 2309 Registered: 10-2003 |
At last night's local weekly jazz jam, one of the guys introduced us to Cobra by John Zorn. Pretty darn useful tool imho. Anybody here ever mess around with this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_(Zorn) John (Message edited by 811952 on June 04, 2013) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 2919 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks , I intend to explore this ! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 2920 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks , I intend to explore this ! (spontaneous stereo posting) (Message edited by sonicus on June 04, 2013) | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1492 Registered: 10-2006 |
Jazz with a viper? OK, but I think John meant to link to this Cobra. (Though, come to think of it, aren't vipers common in jazz?  ) Sounds cool. Tom Constantin once wrote an orchestral piece with the score in a pentangle; you could start at any point & follow until it came back around. Peter Peter | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 474 Registered: 6-2005 |
Cobra is really intense, and zorn has been known to be really secretive about how it actually works. I have a friend who has a couple of records on John's label, so he's talked to him about it a few times, and apparently there's only one other guy in the world that john will allow to conduct it live. He's a japanese vocalist, and I cant remember his name right now but I'll look in to it, because his music is pretty crazy and worth sharing. Can't say I really expected to see Zorn's name on here. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1281 Registered: 1-2005 |
Yamatsuka Eye? | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 2310 Registered: 10-2003 |
Tim Doyle, the guitarist who introduced it to us, just spent a week or so with Robert Fripp and I'm reasonably sure that's where he got it. It would seem, to me, to explain much about the improvisations of King Crimson over the years. If it's not the same thing Fripp has been doing, then it is at least similar. John | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 475 Registered: 6-2005 |
No it's not Eye... i'll have to ask my friend about it. I had never heard of the guy when he first told me about him. I know Eye from his stuff with Naked City, and some other odds and ends. edit: did some research and i THINK it's Makigami Koichi. he's in this band called Hikashu. could be wrong, though. (Message edited by darkstar01 on June 04, 2013) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11080 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here is a pretty good video of Zorn directing Cobra. | ||
| jagerphan84
Advanced Member Username: jagerphan84 Post Number: 313 Registered: 10-2003 |
Am I the only one who hears shades of Zappa coming through? Just need the band to go "PEEP" or "PLUAGHHHH" on command and it would be spot on. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1148 Registered: 3-2004 |
That seems like an interesting exercise, but I don't find it terribly listenable. I definitely hear similarities to some of Zappa's stuff (which I love), but his music was carefully scored and choreographed, and this seems like talented musicians making random noises on command. I could imagine how it might be fun to be in the group, but it seems like the sonic equivalent of a room full of monkeys and typewriters hoping to randomly write Shakespeare. Maybe I'm just a philistine. | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 476 Registered: 6-2005 |
That's a bit harsh... I'll admit that improvised music doesn't translate terribly well to recordings, but when you're talking about some of the musicians initially involved in Cobra - monkeys with typewriters it is not. As with all avant garde music, it's a reflection of the time it was created. So the piece is pretty outdated at this point, and I'd be willing to bet that's why Zorn is so particular about it being performed. He doesn't even touch the game pieces that evolved from cobra any more. Those are WAY out. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1149 Registered: 3-2004 |
Perhaps that was a bit badly phrased, but it still sounds very random to my ear. I have no doubt that the folks performing are very talented (as I said), but I can't imagine listening to it for enjoyment. I could also probably appreciate the variety of sounds found in the cacophony of a construction site, but I wouldn't call it music. I feel similarly about this. | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 477 Registered: 6-2005 |
I would say there's as big a discrepancy between the experience of seeing good improvised music live and listening to a recording as there is in any form of art. I play in a band that gets grouped with this kind of stuff all the time (even though what we do is almost through composed), and I've been around this kind of stuff for a long time, and I can't say I find it terribly interesting 99% of the time. There is, however, some really great (and more digestible) Zorn stuff out there. Check out Masada (and Electric Masada), they are outstanding. | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1442 Registered: 12-2004 |
This does absolutely nothing for me. It does not meet the bar, in my opinion, of even being music. Or even sound for that matter. It's just noise. This is the musical equivalent of Befunge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge it's just deliberately obtuse and difficult. I understand that some appreciate that; I guess I'm stuck with Bourgeois sensibilities. Bradley | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1494 Registered: 10-2006 |
Ok, now I've listened, and I have to say, I'm with Kevin & Bradley; this is to music as performance art is to art (and the befunge link just made my head hurt; what is it talking about? Just knowing what the discipline is might help.). Yes, I'm sure the performers are all quite talented - but I'm also sure you couldn't tell the difference if none of them had ever touched an instrument before going onstage for this. Peter | ||
| rustyg61
Senior Member Username: rustyg61 Post Number: 856 Registered: 2-2011 |
I have always been a fan of obscure music, but to qualify as music the piece has to have rhythm or melody or both, not just incoherent sounds tossed about like the steel ball in a pinball game. This sounds like a preschool on a field trip to a music store, just random chaos. :-) The Art Of Noise took random noises & put them together musically to create songs that I loved, but I could only take about 2 minutes of Cobra. I'm sure the musicians are incredible players to be able to make sounds on cue with no sense of timing or counting, but give me a melodic bass line from Jimmy Johnson or catchy composition from Snarky Puppy any day over the chaos of Cobra. As they say, to each his own! | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 2311 Registered: 10-2003 |
Here's what I see in it: Take a standard tune, say, Blue Bossa or Footprints, and apply Cobra with some restraint. I.E. A and B sections and so forth. Not the full-on cartoon noises, but use it within the framework of a composition. I watched Dave's youtube link to Zorn using it and I found it completely unlistenable, but I look forward to experimenting with the tools and hearing what can happen with it. John (Message edited by 811952 on June 06, 2013) | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1495 Registered: 10-2006 |
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if anybody's ever seen John Zorn & Andy Kaufmann in the same room. This really has the feel of messing with (and laughing at) the audience for your own amusement, of "let's see how big a nothing we can convince people is something", of the Charlie Sheen-to-a-walkout "I've already got your money, dude" attitude. Peter | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 478 Registered: 6-2005 |
i didn't even watch the video until now, but the group of musicians on there is ridiculous. Marc Ribot is one of the best guitar players I've ever heard, and is on countless great recordings (including a lot of Tom Waits music). Trevor Dunn was in Mr Bungle (enough said), Joey Baron plays with everybody and is a freak. Erik Friedlander is probably THE best cellist I've ever seen live. Seriously, if you're not taking John Zorn seriously, do yourself a favor and listen to the Masada String Trio with Friedlander, Mark Feldman, and Greg Cohen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a95ODn5k_1c (Message edited by darkstar01 on June 06, 2013) | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 2312 Registered: 10-2003 |
There's some really good music there. Zorn is more than a bit abrasive imho, but whatever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a95ODn5k_1c Thanks for the link! John | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 479 Registered: 6-2005 |
Oh yeah. He's a piece of work for sure. but he's a genius when it comes to music. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1150 Registered: 3-2004 |
My first impression from Dave's link was that the conductor's ego must be astoundingly huge. The first few seconds of John's link confirmed that. However, I'd also say that the music in John's link was much, much better. One of my favorite sayings is "even a broken clock is right twice a day." I didn't recognize Marc Ribot on sight, but I love his work with Tom Waits. Ditto with Dunn and Mr. Bungle. I like to flatter myself that among my musician friends, I have the weirdest taste (and I'm pretty sure they would agree). But this stuff is ego run amok. The emperor has no clothes. | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 480 Registered: 6-2005 |
Im not really trying to defend Zorn, because like someone already said - to each their own. But I've never understood why people take this music as a personal insult. Like you cant just not like it, you have to be offended that it even exists. Just an observation | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1496 Registered: 10-2006 |
OK, John's link is a little better, but there are still big chunks of pretentiousness, of self-consious "look how weird I can be, I must be cool" crap. Zorn may have talent hidden in there somewhere, but it seems to be hiding behind the maturity of a 9th-grade hipster wannabe. Peter | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1151 Registered: 3-2004 |
I'm not offended or insulted by the music, but the personal attacks on the photographers in the second link are childish. Even more disgusting was the sycophantic reaction from the crowd, who seemed to thoroughly enjoy his poor manners. Sometimes it seems like success in the avant garde world simply depends on convincing the hip crowd that you're one of them, and just as importantly, that anyone who doesn't buy into your brand of crap is wrong minded. Personally I'll stick with listening to random construction noises. Jackhammer: BRRRRR BRRRRRR Concrete Truck: Beep, Beep, Beep, hissssss Voice: "John, call on line 1. John, call on line 1" Jackhammer: BRRRRRRrrrraRRRR Car Horn: Neep! Neep! Neep! Hammer: Clang Clang Clang Engine: Vrrrroooom, VroooooOOOm Genius! | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1152 Registered: 3-2004 |
Since I'm prone to make an ass of myself, let me just add that I have a great deal of respect for folks like Austin who have an independent perspective that allows them to consider work such as this, and appreciate the lack of easily identified musical conventions. The fact that he references Bukowski in his profile suggests to me that we'd likely be able to enjoy each other's company along with a strong beer. I'd like to make the world a little stranger for everyone, but my own bad sense of taste just doesn't gel with this. Not that my opinion is worth much, but I'd suggest Ray Johnson as an example of truly good avant garde art/performance art. | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 481 Registered: 6-2005 |
certainly no hard feelings, kevin. i'll be the first to admit that zorn is more than a bit of an ass, but i have a lot of respect for the guy because he's had a pretty profound impact on an art form that i'm pretty into. and for the record, his music is all over the place. i guarantee you could find something of his you like. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1154 Registered: 3-2004 |
Allow me to offer my respect once more to Austin. There aren't many places on the web I could have this sort of conversation regarding art and music that wouldn't degenerate into name calling and petty attacks. My instinct is to still dislike Zorn, but I'm more convinced than ever to give him a shot to show me what I'm missing. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11081 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's my take, for whatever it may add to the conversation, on the video that I linked. I watched the whole thing. For a long time there was this idea that nothing was happening that made much sense. After I while I was starting to pay attention to the musicians themselves; they were engaged. By the time the piece was over, I had gotten it. The musicians had a seemingly impossible task; not only were they to respond when pointed to, within the parameters of the cue cards and other signals, but they had to do so within the context of what the other musicians had and were doing. In other words, you didn't just play some random notes when the conductor pointed to you; the musicians were trying to work together to create some kind of musical statement. And in my view, they did. It seemed to me, as I recall from the one time I watched it, that most of the performance was kinda preparatory; the musicians feeling their way forward, trying to get some context. But as some point as the performance headed into the final stages, the musicians seemed to lock into each other; there was a flow, a movement, I felt like I was being taken some place. The musicians had found a context within which to say something together. That's my take. I was pretty much unimpressed for quite a while; but by the end I kinda caught on to what they were trying to do, and there was a recognition of what they had achieved. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1155 Registered: 3-2004 |
I didn't last that long, but I'll give it another shot. | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 482 Registered: 6-2005 |
here's some very different zorn to try: Masada (Zorn on Alto Sax, Dave Douglas on Trumpet, Joey Baron on Drums, and Greg Cohen on bass) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_h59iCCNWI Electric Masada (I don't know the exact lineup in this band, but it's Zorn with Ribot and Dunn and Baron and a bunch of other people... fair warning there's a good bit of noise out front, so skip to about 2:45 in the video for the tune to start) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Y5219gO2k&list=PL96208604CE1A8CBF | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1498 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yeah, I like those a bit better. Still not buying a ticket or CD, though. Clicking the "Show More" on the 2nd link gives the line-up: John Zorn - alto saxophone Marc Ribot - guitar Jamie Saft - keyboards Ikue Mori - electronics Trevor Dunn - bass Joey Baron - drums Kenny Wollesen - drums Cyro Baptista - percussion Peter | ||
| moonliner
Intermediate Member Username: moonliner Post Number: 155 Registered: 12-2004 |
On a related note, I will be performing John Zorn's "Torture Garden" (featuring Wayne Horvitz, the keyboardist in Naked City) on July 20th at The Royal Room in Seattle. It will be a challenging night of music, for both the musicians and audience! Anyone from the Seattle chapter of the Alembic club will be welcome :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_Garden_(album) | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 483 Registered: 6-2005 |
nice! wish i could be there for that. love the naked city stuff. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1500 Registered: 10-2006 |
I like this better. Peter | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 484 Registered: 6-2005 |
I like a lot of things better. | ||
| pauldo
Senior Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 994 Registered: 6-2006 |
My son turned me on to John Zorn's The Gift. Brilliant, I love it. My personal opinion on Cobra is that it appears to be the kind of music that is more enjoyable to actually play then to listen to. I would love to be challenged at performing a piece with such abstract guidelines. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1565 Registered: 5-2002 |
I've played Cobra. Erik Deutsch (keyboard player with Charlie Hunter, among others) organized and conducted it after lengthy conversations with Zorn. We got the tome of rules weeks ahead of time and had multiple rehearsals. I think basing the outcome on one or two performances is to confuse the fundamental nature with specific outcomes. Yes, it is perhaps more fun for the performers than the listeners, but I have to say that our entire audience was rapt with attention during the whole thing. Not one person in a packed house complained that it sounded like random noise. It may be improvisation but there is very little that is aleatoric about it. It depends entirely on the ensemble, as does pretty much any improvised music. Given that we had the A list of Colorado improvisers on board, it was a great evening and I think that perhaps our guys were a little more inclined to cooperation than the participants in the Zorn conducted versions I've heard. It's most successful with people who aren't superstars in their own right, but able to not only focus on ensemble playing but to applying themselves to creating the language of ensemble on the spot, which can require great humility. Regardless of the style, form or method of creating the music, if you're not telling a story the audience can understand, you're not really playing music. The audience should laugh, cry, reflect, etc., and ours did. We had a very diverse group, a horn section, upright bass, DJ, percussion, drumset, middle eastern instrumentation, electric guitars, etc., and I played primarily effects. At the end of the night, Ron Miles came up to me and told me I had big ears. Pretty much the single biggest compliment of my musical career. The lessons learned in performing and listening to a good performance of Cobra can be applied to any music. Writing it off as noise is understandable, but there's the danger of condemning something not for it's inherent being but a subpar manifestation. It's like saying electric basses are inherently crappy instruments because you've only experience an badly set up, out of tune Hondo and never even conceived of an Alembic. Cobra in and of itself is awesome, although like other powerful tools to make music, it can sound hideous. Say, has anyone here heard Zubi Zuva? | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1445 Registered: 12-2004 |
Edwin, I get what you are trying to say, but don't you think that maybe there is a little selection bias with your audience? I understand the discipline and whatnot that would go into a performance like this, and appreciate the amount of work. But it just doesn't sound good. I guess I could charitably say, to me, but I don't think it would pass the man on the street test. To be clear, I don't think this is a case of me "not getting it." I just think that it might as well be a fine audio layering of squealing brakes, chalkboards, and small furry animals with sad eyes being fed to a wood-chipper. You could do that with any amount of mastery and humility, and it would sound like what it is. I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to smash anyone's dreams: horses for courses, strokes for folks and all that. Makes you happy? Rock on. Bradley | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 485 Registered: 6-2005 |
Selection bias? As in people who know what they're getting in to came to the show expecting something in particular and were satisfied? Maybe I'm wrong, but isnt that what is supposed to happen? | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1566 Registered: 5-2002 |
Just to clue people into the bigger picture of what's going on, here are a handful of the many parameters of the game: There are cue cards that instruct the musicians (similar to the Everyone Orchestra, which is a much less rigorous version), but the conductor does not display the cue cards at his own whim. There are hand signals that the musicians employ to instruct the conductor which cue cards to deploy. The ensemble can be broken down into smaller sub-ensembles. They can be played off each other. Memories can be called by any participant. If someone likes what they hear, they signal the conductor to call it as a memory. Further down the road, it can be recalled (one of the most hilarious memories called was when I was assigned a duet with guitarist Dave Willey. I decided we should grind our instruments together, each going through our various effects. Guitarist Farrell Lowe, on the other side of the circle wanted to join in, got assigned by the conductor and then dashed across the circle and took a flying leap into our laps. Memory #2). Assumption of parts: During a sub-ensemble section, a card can be deployed which requires all non-playing musicians to raise their hand. Then, all playing musicians select a non-playing musician to assume their part. After all parts are assigned (during mid-play, mind you), it switches over. You can find yourself on the bass playing a DJ part, a drumset part, a bouzouki part, etc. I think it was this section that earned my ears. Guerilla conducting: if a player puts on a headband, he can recruit other members of the band as a renegade conductor. He recruits other players who must follow him and put headbands on until the official conductor identifies the ringleader. These are but a few of the rules, which are many pages long, that the musicians must commit to memory. Learning the hand signals for all the cue cards is probably the most labor intensive aspect. While it may seem like a free for all, in some regards, it is as regimented as learning to play common practice classical music. The process of learning the language for the game and then playing it is very invigorating in terms of relearning what it means to play your instrument in an ensemble context. I don't think I'd played in an ensemble that was as committed to examining group dynamics and presentation since my chamber music days as an aspiring oboist. PS It is a game, not a method of creating pop, jazz or classical music. Judging it along the same parameters is somewhat unfair. However, I love some pretty weird music. Dawn has chased me out of the house for what I've been listening to in the past. | ||
| hammer
Advanced Member Username: hammer Post Number: 367 Registered: 9-2009 |
I think one of the questions here is, for whom is the music (and I believe it to be such) played? While Edwin's audience certainly seem tuned in to what the players were performing, my experience with what I refer to as "experimental improvisation" is that the players often appear to appreciate what they are doing as a collaborating group more than most audiences. I remember seeing Anthony Braxton years ago at Wesleyan University in Connecticut which was a short distance from where I went to school as an undergraduate. He and his group performed some pieces that many in the audience during a question and answer session equated to throwing instruments down a flight of stairs. Faced with this type of response again and again Braxton and his fellow musicians spent most of this feedback session talking, in a totally non-defensive manner, about how together they were this night, and the beauty of what they created. Interestingly, in spite of the audience reaction, Braxton was later hired to teach at Wesleyan, and from what I last heard is still there. It certainly takes a different kind of ear to appreciate. Like the work of Edgar Varese (a composer many now appreciate as one of the fathers of experimental electronic music) who's initial works received extremely hostile reviews, it takes time to appreciate. Personally, it's not my cup of tea, but who knows...at some point in the future we may find that Zorn influenced the music of someone we all love in the same manner as Varese influenced poppa Zappa. | ||
| darkstar01
Senior Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 486 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thanks for the explanation, Edwin. I feel like i've exhausted my attempt to try and defend this music, but I failed to make the point that this is a game, and it being music is kind of secondary. I love out music, and it kind of gets on my nerves when people just bash it without giving it a chance. I love all kinds of music, I love the Dead, I love Zappa,I love Zorn, I love Brotzmann. Just try to keep an open mind, guys. That's all I'm about. | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1446 Registered: 12-2004 |
I will admit that part of my dislike of this relates to the "secret rules" thing. Like the freemasons or something... it couches in secrecy the "ceremony" when it's really just a bunch of middle-aged white guys trying to put a semi-serious spin on a bunch of goofy stuff. I pretty wholeheartedly reject most forms of esoterica. I appreciate the calvinball aspect, so maybe I could dig that... if only it sounded like music. Please, please don't take me too seriously. I get that there are some folks that like this stuff, and I'm just trying to make contrapuntal discussion (admittedly, the small furry animals with sad eyes was probably a little over the top; please just view it as exaggeration, rather than an attack). | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1570 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bradley, I totally understand where you're coming from and I also think that much of this kind of music is exactly as you say. But I would argue that there is a very small portion of it that is not. I love weird music, but not music that is weird for the sake of being weird. I find Braxton essentially unlistenable. But it's sort of like 12 tone music. While most of it is academic, distant and unlistenable, there is some of Schoenberg's work that is accessible, compelling and speaks directly to the human experience. Hindemith is another. I do think that you have somewhat missed my point because I think that Zorn's performance, despite it being his baby, is neither definitive nor dispositive. Experimental improvisation does not have to be inaccessible any more than any other kind of music, it's just that so many musicians chose to make it so. This applies equally to Cobra. I disagree with the idea that being a game makes the music secondary, but I do think that it must be taken into account. I think the reaction to this is very similar to the reaction that my wife got a number of years back when she was invited by the Denver Art Museum to collaborate with a modern art show they had as a perfume designer. Because of her background in painting, she had an affinity for the artists represented (interestingly, some of them were part of my childhood on account of my parents being artists in that general community, so it brought together various parts of my life quite nicely) and in fact had some of them in mind when mulling over her work. So, she brought to fruition a series she'd been contemplating for quite some time, which was a line of fragrance based on her perception of colors. You can see it here: http://www.dshperfumes.com/shop/product-category/collection/chroma-collection/. At the opening, she was stationed at the door to the gallery and invited the patrons to "smell the exhibit". While some people got it, there were quite a few who were puzzled because to them, perfume was something you wear to "smell good". They didn't understand the idea of fragrance as pure art form and that it's just as valid to smell interesting. That isn't to say that you can't wear it (just like you can consider experimental improvisation as functional music), but it does require looking at the concepts of art from a new perspective. Now, it is all in the nose of the beholder and I think that Dawn is exceptionally gifted, so that what smells interesting also smells good, even if you aren't versed in the field. To prove my point, what began as a syntheasthetic exploration has become a perennial favorite in her lineup, with plenty of customers who don't know Hoffman from Motherwell. So, the fact that Cobra as performed by Zorn, et al, doesn't "sound good" could be a function of the listener, but it could also be a function of the people who are interpreting it. From my perspective, all music I play, from Cobra to cover tunes, should be able to be understood and enjoyed by anyone, regardless of their academic background. My wife, who is somewhat conversant in music but has zero tolerance for self-indulgence or other wankery (she can be devastating in her critiques of music that is inaccessible) loved Cobra as did the other non-musicians in the audience. It was not your hip New York audience, the population of which in Colorado could have fit in the bathroom, but a wide range of people interested in something different. There were no squealing brakes, chalkboards or small furry animals. There were plenty of "men on the street." The audience was tuned into the ensemble because the ensemble was tuned into the audience. | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1447 Registered: 12-2004 |
Edwin, Calvinball is totally something I can get behind, as I said. It just has to have some redeeming value other than that. I guess the truth is, I can't judge the system, which seems like its intent: it cannot be subject to criticism because it's held by a high priesthood. It cannot be released lest the light of day expose its banality. Esoterica gives me hives. Ed Snowden knows Cobra, and he's hiding it from the NSA. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 2320 Registered: 10-2003 |
We tried it again Monday evening, early before things generally get going and before there are many patrons in the bar. The small crowd of a dozen or more really dug it, or at least they acted like they really dug it. Of course, we tried to focus on moving/changing grooves around for the most part and kept melodic aspects simple (I am a simple man, harmonically speaking). We were two guitars, djembe, congas, drum set, bass and tenor sax this time and at one point or another I think each of us sang melodies that would have been difficult to play on our instruments. We're working off of the simple one-sheet set of rules and the conductor drives the bus at this point. It was pretty cool and yes, it's making the ears bigger. ;-) John | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1571 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bradley, I get that you don't like it, but there's no call to be smug and insulting. You are acting as if your subjective experience is the objective truth. Pissing on other people's parades is not good form. | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1448 Registered: 12-2004 |
Edwin, I'll retract my post, that was not my intent and I apologize. It was meant to be a statement on esoterica generally. Bradley |
