Five, Six, Seven, Eight ... etc., ...... Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Register | Edit Profile

Alembic Club » Miscellaneous » Archive: 2005 » Archive through May 15, 2005 » Five, Six, Seven, Eight ... etc., ... Strings ... Why? « Previous Next »

Author Message
ajdover
Advanced Member
Username: ajdover

Post Number: 205
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:32 pm:   Edit Post

Gents/Gals,

I've always wondered why some folks go for a 5-string (or six, or seven ... other than the music/genre calling for it). Me personally, I've never felt comfortable with them. Granted, I grew up with 4's, but I just don't get why some folks think they need to go so low ...

I've yet to find a five string that I'm comfortable with. As Jeff Berlin once said, those with five/six/seven/eight/nine/ten string basses can now be as non-melodic with them as they were with four strings. That's how I view myself with an extended range bass. I just don't get the whole 5-6 string bass thing, but maybe it's just me. And I'm getting older, you know! :-)

Anybody care to tell me why they chose or prefer an exteded range bass?

Thanks,

Alan

(Message edited by ajdover on April 28, 2005)
bsee
Senior Member
Username: bsee

Post Number: 887
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:49 pm:   Edit Post

Here are my observations:

Five strings let you play a two octave pattern without a position shift.

They let you play E blues without using open strings. The fingering of the pattern you play for the I can match what you're doing for the IV and V.

They let you play several keys at a higher position for shorter stretches.

The low D is also a relatively useful note, and you get it without a Hipshot for drop-D that would alter your patterns.

I played fives for a long time, but have been using a four almost exclusively the past year. Don't ask why, I don't know...

-Bob
rklisme
Advanced Member
Username: rklisme

Post Number: 227
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post

Alan

I think Bob gave some very good examples of why one might play an extended range instrument. I personally like to solo in the high range as a preference and the 6 string gives me that ability. I don't take a lot of solo's but when I do I love playing across the fretboard.
Todays music calls for some bass players to be very versatile which means you can show up to the gig with one bass and cover the whole spectrum. I've shown up for gospel gigs and everything is played on the B string which I think is pretty common in that genre. I can do a jazz or funk gig and the 4 string does just fine. I love to play fusion even though there is not much call for it here but that is where I find the 6 really shines for me.
In the end it is what you are most comfortable with and what styles of music you play!

Rory
bigredbass
Advanced Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 398
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post

I came to bass after years of piano. I played 4-string for about 10 years, and was forever frustrated that I had to change positions so often to finish a particular passage.

I transitioned to five-string in the late 80s.
As Bob said in the preceding post, I could now play 'across' the fingerboard. In most keys, first and second position really became one position working out of the second position area.
I feel like buying a five just to get B thru E-flat is not very smart. For me, it just made life a lot easier, made more sense to me and the way I saw the fingerboard. Plus, most keyboard players routinely go from 61 key to 88 key instruments without a lot of thought, so that also made it easier for me.

The sixes, sevens, etc., are for those who can marry their vision to an 'extended' range instrument. I really don't need a low F-sharp or the higher notes as I just can't imagine what I'd do with them. But my hat's off to those who can ! !

J o e y
bob
Senior Member
Username: bob

Post Number: 418
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post

The other Bob had some good, concrete reasons for going lower, or at least for having five strings. On a more gut level...

If I only had a 4 string, it would be tuned BEAD. That's how I had my last one set up for a year, before getting my 5.

It's a *bass*, so for me, being able to go a little lower, and generally play with heavier strings, is essential.

On the other hand, that implies I could easily live without a G string, which isn't entirely true. The range, within a position, is so much better with a 5, and there are plenty of keys to play in that would force you to shift way up the neck if you didn't have a G.

But once you can do just a fret or two short of two octaves in one position, I don't personally feel a need for much more, and I just don't like skinny strings, or really wide fingerboards.

Some people do :-)
-Bob
palembic
Senior Member
Username: palembic

Post Number: 1996
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 1:04 am:   Edit Post

I like to walk to E

Paul TBO
jacko
Intermediate Member
Username: jacko

Post Number: 176
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 1:47 am:   Edit Post

I think everyone has already commented on the reasons I went to 5 so I won't repeat any of it here.
What I would like to make an observation on though is how some 'name' players seem to come down on extended range instruments. I'm thinking particularly of the aforementioned Jeff Berlin and also Carol Kaye. both highly respected musicians but both self-obsessed (in my opinion). In nearly all their writings, I get the impression that it's a case of 'I don't play a 5 so there's no need for anyone else to'. Carol in particular seems to think that there's no need for a B string in Jazz - try telling that to Steve Bailey or oteil Burbridge or Marcus Miller or matt Garrison or dominique de piazza or anyone of dozens of Jazz musicians who keep a 5 string or two in their arsenal. On the other hand, I've read interviews with Stanley Clarke where he says he doesn't play 5 strings as he doesn't feel he's fully explored the posibilities of a 4. At least he doesn't then have a go at those of us who do play a five.
Mini rant over.
Having played with 5 strings since the mid 90's, I'm lost without the B if I pick up a 4.

graeme
alanbass1
Junior
Username: alanbass1

Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 4:06 am:   Edit Post

Well, I use an Overwater 5 string bass in a covers band that I dep for. They play lots of songs that have a Keyboard bassline on the original and things like Seal's Killer just does not sound the same without the Low C#. The great thing is that there is a choice, and people should choose the instrument that helps them create the sounds they hear in their head and want to get out; whether that's 4, 5, 6 string bass or whatever.

I think jeff Berlin is a talented musician, but I also think that his opinion sucks. My favourite bass player is Tony Levin and he plays 4 and 5 string basses as well as a Chapman Stick. Why a Chapman Stick; well songs like Peter Gabriel's Shaking The Tree will not sound the same without it. And this is what I believe it's all about; creating the right textures and sounds to compliment a song. Every musician has their unique way of expressing this and, as a consequence, chooses the tools that are right for them. Getting anal like Jeff Beck shows disrespect and certainly doesn't show him in a good light.
ronl513
New
Username: ronl513

Post Number: 9
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 4:58 am:   Edit Post

I read a story about Jacko that claimed that someone offered him a five string to try out. He turned them down stating that he didn't need the extra string. Well, we all know he didn't. I've never tried one except in a music store and I found the neck to be quite clumsy, but my hands are somewhat small. Some of the perspectives I've read here explain why many soloist prefer the extra string. I'm pretty much a traditional player, and the four string has always served me well.
keith_h
Junior
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 5:07 am:   Edit Post

I try to split my time between 4 and 5 string basses. I got the 5 string in part to cover some of the newer rock out there and to deal with non-standard tunings a guitarist I used to play with did. Playing them on the 4 string just didn't sound right since I had to play in a higher octave. There is also the advantage of not having to change hand position as often since I can drop down to the B string.

Keith
ronl513
New
Username: ronl513

Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 5:56 am:   Edit Post

Did I say Jacko???? I meant Jaco. Der!!!!!
gare
Intermediate Member
Username: gare

Post Number: 187
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 6:20 am:   Edit Post

Like Ron, I too have relatively small hands. I've never found a 5 string that felt comfortable,both the longer scale and neck width. But I can see the usefulness mentioned above, 2 oct in 1 position etc. If I were to go to an extended range instrument I'd like a 6 string tuned EADGBE,the only thing I've found that felt comfortable like that was a Fender BassVI,but thats not quite the same.
But,for now,I'll have to stick to my original theory: 4 fingers, 4 strings..works for me.

Gary
the_mule
Senior Member
Username: the_mule

Post Number: 473
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 6:43 am:   Edit Post

I own and enjoy both a 4-string and a 5-string bass, and I have great respect for the many skilled and talented players out there grooving on 6-, 7-, 9- or even 11-string basses. People with that ever so fashionable '4-string only' purist attitude usually have a personality problem. It's OK if you don't like to use more than 4 strings yourself, but it doesn't give you the right to judge and look down on the people with the big hands. Legendary players like Jeff Berlin and Carol Kaye should realise that being a part of bass guitar history doesn't make you the alpha and the omega. The continuing evolution of the bass is one of the most exciting things happening in the world of music right now. Just my $0.02 off course...

Wilfred
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 1662
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 7:32 am:   Edit Post

I have a video clip of John Patitucci playing his six string and I've been to a clinic where Steve Baily was playing his six string. I also have a Flectones DVD wherein Victor Wooten plays his five string. When I watch guys like that playing their instruments, the question of why they would want to never occurs to me. <g>
richbass939
Advanced Member
Username: richbass939

Post Number: 237
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post

I got my first 5-string about 12 or so years ago. I have several 4s and 5s. I like them all for different reasons. One thing I like about the 5 is that sometimes I like the sound of the notes played on the lower strings/higher frets better than on higher strings/lower frets.
Sometimes the B gives me options that the 4 doesnít. For instance, if I am on an A, am going down to an E, and want to lead up to the E with Db, D,Eb, I can do it low rather than high or not at all. I donít hang out on the B string much at all. I just go down to it occasionally to grab a note or two. Itís just my preference.
For those of you with small hands, there are narrow-neck basses out there. I have a non-Alembic 5 with the exact same neck width as my Epic 4. I donít know how many Alembic 5s there are with narrow necks. It may be pretty expensive to get.
I donít always play my Epic 5 because some songs have me on the D and G a lot. It makes it harder to mute the B and E. I know, I know, better technique would solve that.
Some people feel that if something doesnít work for them then itís just a gimmick. Iím glad that there are a lot of open minds around here.
Rich
hb3
Junior
Username: hb3

Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post

anyone get the feeling jeff berlin is kind've a dick?
alanbass1
Junior
Username: alanbass1

Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post

yep
keith_h
Junior
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 36
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 2:38 pm:   Edit Post

That's the impression I've always gotten.
ajdover
Advanced Member
Username: ajdover

Post Number: 206
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 5:52 pm:   Edit Post

Wow! Didn't think I'd stir up such a $%^T storm with my comments on fives, sixes, etc. Wasn't meant to impugn anyone's choice of instrument. I was just curious as to why some guys use them since I've never fancied them myself. Hell, I have enough trouble with four strings as it is!

All great responses, and very insightful for me, thanks to all.

Now, if we could just get Jeff Berlin and Carol Kaye to understand .... :-)

Alan
bigredbass
Advanced Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 399
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 9:27 pm:   Edit Post

Jeff Berlin, for me, only presents one real problem: He's usually right! And he and Carol Kaye have forgotten more than I'll ever know about playing my instrument. To me, they have more than earned the right to their opinions.
But it does remind me of how Buddy Rich used to always rag Louis Bellson about nobody needing a double kick kit, but boy could both of them drum for the ages.

J o e y
ronl513
Junior
Username: ronl513

Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 4:50 am:   Edit Post

I'm not sure who some of the above mentioned folks are, but if Victor Wooten can burn the hair off of a five string--and he can!--then there is obvious merit to the use of the instrument. The six string has never sparked my curiousity, but I've seen it in use, and it can get the job done as well. I feel fortunate to have been able to do as well with a 4 string as I have, and like Alan, more strings are quite possibly beyond my capability as a musician. As Clint Eastwood says in Magnum Force, "A man's got to know his limitations." I've been able to work within mine and keep up with some great players. I feel priviledged to have been accepted by my fellow musicians as a viable addition to the groups I've played with. In short, I run what I brung and don't get too far out of the box.

Ron
adriaan
Senior Member
Username: adriaan

Post Number: 545
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 5:15 am:   Edit Post

Looks like Eastwood knew his Goethe: In der Beschršnkung zeigt sich der Meister.
gare
Intermediate Member
Username: gare

Post Number: 191
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 3:06 pm:   Edit Post

Hope this isn't to far off course, but I'm also curious as to how many people are playing multi stringed basses..like 8, 10, or 12 strings.

G
bigbass
Member
Username: bigbass

Post Number: 55
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 3:10 pm:   Edit Post

Since I was a child, I have always felt amour for low frequencies and the instruments that produce them. I never thought that the low E on any electric bass or up-right was low enough. In the musics after the Middle Ages, bass instruments called Gambas and Bass Viols appeared and had as many as seven strings. Their strings were intended to be lower in pitch than our modern instruments of today. They were fretted instruments and played with bows just like a 'cello and double bass. When Mini-Moog came out in the '70s, many bassists I knew were envious 'cause it had notes that went below that of the bass. It also rivaled the sound of the bass because of its quick attack and ability to articulate. Similar feelings accured when Yamaha came out with the DX7 keyboard in the '80s. Many felt they would be put out of work because of the ability to reproduce low frequencies. Technology has allowed us many possibilities. In pursuit of low frequency sound, I have two instruments the currently set up with low F# strings on them. I love it and am still intrigued!
beelee
Member
Username: beelee

Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 3:41 pm:   Edit Post

I started playing a 5 string in the mid 80's not to be fashonable, but so I wouldn't have to tune down to E flat, D or D flat etc. instead of getting a Hipshot De -Tuner, playing covers from Sabbath, Van Halen and all those tuned down tunes :o) I figured it was better to have the lower string, since then I have moved on to 6, 7, 8, 12 string and Chapman Stick, but I still have some 4 strings and enjoy playing them.

Some of the material I cover can't be played on a 4 ( like Dream Theater ) the tuning and harmonics, but do I use the extra strings all the time ? No, I play what the song requires and use the other strings to incorporate some of my own ideas into what's already there.

Bass playing has come such a long way and there are so many talented players, 4, 5, 6 etc. people have played/used more than 4 strings since the 1960's , its all about trying something different and breaking the rules and pushing the boundries of the instrument, the sky is the limit.

Bruce
bigbass
Member
Username: bigbass

Post Number: 56
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 9:46 pm:   Edit Post

I had a lot of friends say: "You want a high c string? Why don't you just play a guitar?" I can't stand twangy c strings. I use a very heavy c string (.40 or .45) on my 36" scale basses. It sounds and responds just like a bass. No kidd'n. No comparison.
alanbass1
Junior
Username: alanbass1

Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post

I agree that guitars do not get close to the sound and feel of a Bass with a high C. The guitarist in one of the bands I play in uses a baritone guitar to get the tone and textures a detuned guitar just cannot do. And I still think this is what it's all about, getting the right textures to compliment the song, not just playing the notes.
jazzyvee
Intermediate Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 199
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 1:21 am:   Edit Post

At the moment I only play 4 string. A good few years ago I did have a 5 string bass but eventually sold it, mainly because after i got an MM Sterling bass, i realised how sh*t the old 5 string sounded.

Now I use a SC deluxe 4, and have been happy with that. The reason I'm considering adding a 6 string to my kit is because I'm getting more RnB gigs these days where the extended low B is really useful also i'm all for economising in movement which is really where these basses are at.

Currently I do have to re-tune the bass for some songs just to keep the bottom end heavy, or sometimes take the long scale MM along but de-tuned a tone down.

I love my 4 string and would always keep it but in order to keep my options open and gigs coming in I need to extend my range so they still call me and not a.n other bass player :-)

Incidentally I was teaching a female friend of mine to play bass a couple of years ago and encouraged her to early on to go to 5 and she's not looked back.

She's hardly played a 4 string so to her 5 string is a normal bass.
ronl513
Junior
Username: ronl513

Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 5:47 am:   Edit Post

As to the question about the 8-10-12 string basses: I've owned a Kramer XL8 8-string since the 80s and I've used it mostly strung with 4 strings; however, I have used it in the studio as an 8 string, and it has a nether-worldly sound to it, but not the crisp and punctuated tone that a bass--in my opinion--should have. The songs I recorded with my 8 were very melodic, and I used it only in segments of one tune. Still an 8-string gave me a variety of tones that a standard bass or any guitar could never achieve without a lot of electronic help.

Ron
bigbass
Member
Username: bigbass

Post Number: 57
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 7:15 am:   Edit Post

Sometimes in the morning I find hair in my food. Rather unexpectedly so, but it makes you think.
exploiterplayer
Junior
Username: exploiterplayer

Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 8:52 am:   Edit Post

After playing a 4 string bass professionally for 18 years......I've tried 5 string basses but I just cannot get the hang of playing them. Truthfully......Its hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
dannobasso
Advanced Member
Username: dannobasso

Post Number: 256
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 1:38 pm:   Edit Post

Having 4,5,6 and 1 7 stringer, I have to say because:
1. They are really cool.
2. I went from a 4 to a six because of Anthony Jackson.
3. 5's because my sixes were not the thing for a dark rock band.
4. 7 because I wanted something totally different in a fretless Alembic.
5. Why the he double hockey sticks not?
I had a 10 string stick and an 8 string stickbass, but I never had occaision to play them live.(save a few times playing big time PG and shock the monkey in a cover band) Life is too short to compromise on your desires (provided no one gets hurt), explore your abilities and discover something new. Sometimes it's just an extra string away!
Danno
hb3
Junior
Username: hb3

Post Number: 29
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 1:54 pm:   Edit Post

Tell us about the Stickbass! I've been thinking about buying a Stick. Any other Stick players out there?
palembic
Senior Member
Username: palembic

Post Number: 2005
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 3:56 pm:   Edit Post

Well ...iff I had the money this wopuld be siomething I would go for: http://www.bassnw.com/Used%20Basses/conklin_sidewinder_7FL.htm
Of course I would try to get a lower price.
Fair chance that I would get completely lost on it but well ...life IS about trying no???

Paul the bad one

and about having the right stocking in the right bank of course.
byoung
Junior
Username: byoung

Post Number: 48
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 6:39 pm:   Edit Post

My current bass is a 6-string.

I play in church against a Hammond (with Leslie), and I need the extra depth that the B string affords me (we play lots of songs in Eb). I'm seriously considering going to an F#BEADG tuning.

The six happened because I was in the market for a five and found a good deal on a six (Warwick Corvette). Plus, the six had active electronics, where the fours and fives have passive.

I feel deficient on anything less than a five. I'd really like to try an eight, tuned C#F#BEADGC. You'd have to have some serious amplification on that open C#. I'd really consider it on my current custom, but since it'd be available the sixth Tuesday of December, 2015, I decided I couldn't wait that long.

Danno, where can I see pics of your fretless 7-string Alembic?

Brad
dannobasso
Advanced Member
Username: dannobasso

Post Number: 257
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 7:35 pm:   Edit Post

If you look in the archives and find Danno's rig, there are a few along with my ridiculous amp set up. I traded the stickbass to Oggydoggy.
Danno
byoung
Junior
Username: byoung

Post Number: 49
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 8:16 pm:   Edit Post

Danno,

An impressive collection of pursuaders! Is the 7 strung with a high F (looks like) or a low F#?

Brad
dannobasso
Advanced Member
Username: dannobasso

Post Number: 258
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 9:47 pm:   Edit Post

Spoilers, Distillate, SC Deluxe, Excels, BEADGCF Lined fretless, deluxe neck cocobolo Spoiler. Love em'all.
Danno
locutusofborg10
Member
Username: locutusofborg10

Post Number: 70
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post

i had a 5 for a while but got rid of it becdause i kept making mistakes thinking the b was the e. i'm going to stick with 4's so i don't keep making mistakes. also, i didn't find the need for the low sound of the b. i guess i'm a traditionalist at heart so playing a 4 fits right in.
bassdr
Junior
Username: bassdr

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 9:38 am:   Edit Post

My solution to getting the notes below E is an octave doubler- obviously an octave below. My hands are so used to 4 strings after 38 years that I don't think much about them and I'm too lazy to relearn on a 5. I do admire the players like Victor (I've seen him live in the Ann Arbor area 4 times) who play them. Flame Koa Essence and Mr. Ric are both 4s with similar feeling necks and easy to switch between. Lazy me! Michael
willride3
New
Username: willride3

Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:49 pm:   Edit Post

This is great, I enjoy this! Great comments! The first time I thought about a 5 was when we played a song I had a solo in in D. I really wanted that bottom the 4 didn't have in that range. The Essence I now have has it, for sure with the B string available. I also have small hands, had trouble at first with processing the thought that the lowest string was not an E, also have made some adjustments for muting the B, and I am an older dog that has learned the new trick. You can get used to it! It's a fun instrument, that's the name of the game for me.I play lefty, and had to fill in on an emergency on a 4 upside down a couple of times at church, once with a broken A string. My bass was at home. Talk about a brain cramp! I used to play upside down a long time ago. Barely remembered how. Well, after that, I bought a 4 that I practice on to keep my brain in shape.It really is a good thing for me to switch occasionally to stay in focus, and not get too comfortable with the same playing patterns. Also get some new ideas. Bottom line is they are all good. P.S. I don't leave my Alembic Essence out overnight anywhere. Is this a common sickness around here? Tom
willride3
New
Username: willride3

Post Number: 10
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 7:52 pm:   Edit Post

hey, bassdr. you in ann arbor? i'm in detroit. tom
mint_bass
Advanced Member
Username: mint_bass

Post Number: 255
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:02 am:   Edit Post

its already been said but my need for a six is simple the band i jam in use alot of dropped tunings including dropping the E string to a D and to a C with the other strings down one step as well. We also play in regular tuning and other tunings. We do this as we feel it suits the song better i got a six sting so i would not have to keep tuning up and down between songs. Thats why i have a B string but for the C i play a lot of chords and use wah and the extra high notes sound better than lower when playing wah and allow me to play more chords.

andrew
bassdr
Junior
Username: bassdr

Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 1:54 pm:   Edit Post

Hey Willride- I'm in Dexter 426-2321 land line. Call me, I"ll call you back- Michael

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration