| Author | Message | ||
| rustyg61
Senior Member Username: rustyg61 Post Number: 1139 Registered: 2-2011 |
http://www.bassplayer.com/article/tech-bench-sound-good-live/154131 | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2122 Registered: 9-2002 |
That's all well and good, but in my experience A) Every next room is entirely different (as pointed out) and without B) A FIRST-rate FOH guy that really knows his system, you're screwed. I completely understand how Jimmy J uses the setup he does. Bring your favorite amp, get your onstage sound perfect to your ears, and then the band complains, you screw up the mains, the room rumbles as you bleed over everyting, just not often when the stars align and everyone is happy. I'm tickled I spent all this money on a big rig I can't use. Bring the combo, and all I hear is snare and his Marshall half-stack. The 600# gorilla in all of this is all these basses with 3-band EQ piling into bass amps with more EQ than most channel strips. Back off the deep end and boost your mids . . . . really. And thumb it till the VU needles bend. OK . . . . I could never hear myself properly, I was never satsified with my tone, and it drove me out of ever gigging again. Physics have conspired against me. Standing waves, anyone? J o e y | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3249 Registered: 5-2009 |
Joey , Standing Waves ! Like when I played at "The Keystone" in Palo Alto , Ca.in the late 1970's I was told just bring a small rig and the FOH guys will will take care of you . That memory will really get stirred up ! ___LOL_____ Just the backslap off the rear wall of the venue alone without proper signal compensation or stage monitoring alone was driving me nuts in that room . | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3250 Registered: 5-2009 |
Stands and waves @ the repost gremlin ( repost removed ) (Message edited by sonicus on March 04, 2014) | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 261 Registered: 6-2012 |
+1 re: cutting bass and bumping mids to cut through on stage - Joey hit it on the head. And, I hate to say it, but I've had the best luck with a dual output direct box feeding both the PA and my own personal powered monitor. If I'm REALLY lucky, I'll also have a PA monitor positioned near me so I can hear the PA mix, but that's a bonus. I position my personal monitor so the drummer & I can both hear it and allow the sound technician to mix the bass as he/she sees fit to satisfy both the house mix and the individual monitor mixes for the other band members. Doing this allows the PA to become my bass rig and helps me to avoid the tiresome "turn that #%$&#$ bass down, dude, yer killin' me out here" tirade from the sound tech while my bandmates complain they can't hear any bass beyond a rumble. The only difficulty I've encountered with this setup is when my monitor was placed on a wooden surface covering an orchestra pit. The hollow area underneath acted like a subwoofer and boosted the bass so much that I had a hard time dialing it out. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1973 Registered: 2-2005 |
I can live with "Turn the bass down" when it's me. What really gets to me though is when I haven't touched a thing and I get yelled at for the keyboard player or the rhythm guitarist playing in my territory. Played with a drummer once who kept saying turn down the bass. Told him to get off his rear and come look at the bass head settings. I had turned the volume down all the way. I pointed to the offender and he shut up when he realized it was the band leader on keys. I often think about selling most of my rig and going to in ears. If nothing else it is less weight to deal with as I get older. Keith | ||
| rustyg61
Senior Member Username: rustyg61 Post Number: 1140 Registered: 2-2011 |
I had all the same problems with my Eden stack. Being too loud in the room yet not being able to hear myself on stage standing right in front of the amp. Now I have finally found the setup that works for me & the soundman without annoying my bandmates with excessive stage volume. I use a Fender Rumble 350 that is 350 watts into 2X10's & I tilt it back on a stand & face it backwards towards me like a floor monitor. The Rumble coupled with my SF-2 allows me to dial in a nice punchy stage sound with the right amount of bite to compete with my bandmates amps & drums, & facing it backwards keeps me from competing with the FOH mix & also keeps me from being too loud for the rest of the band on stage. Keith, I have done gigs in the past where my band accused me of being too loud & I kept telling them it was the PA they were hearing. They didn't believe me until one night we tripped a breaker on the PA & my amp suddenly sounded like a transistor radio! I proved my point! Here's my current rig -  | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 708 Registered: 9-2004 |
These days I just drag my little SWR Workingman 12 combo to gigs and run its output jack to the house system. I have played pretty big gigs that way. If I need more, I add another SWR 2X10 cab into its extra speaker jack. It is a simple system that works well and I leave the big ground-movers at home! | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2123 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well, at least it's not just me. I had to laugh, though: I'm watching Eric's Crossroads (the Chicago iteration) the other night, and towards the end, it's him and his band with Steve Winwood guesting, WW on bass and Gadd on drums. What's Gadd using for monitors? Two HUGE wedges at 45's right behind him on risers. Parting his hair from behind. I wonder if anyone was hard-timing Willie . . . . J o e y | ||
| briant
Senior Member Username: briant Post Number: 676 Registered: 12-2004 |
Everything this article mentions is true of live sound. And yes, having a good FOH soundman is going to be crucial in achieving an overall good experience for the audience and the stage. I have used mids to my advantage for years now. A good FOH guy will always use this to both of our advantage: he can boost the lows in the mains and I don't overwhelm him with my stage volume; all while maintaining a happy medium. In my experience once you've sorted how to adjust for the room's acoustics the biggest X factor is just being aware of the fact that working *with* the soundman instead of fighting him is the best way to go about things. My "big rig" can crush most sound systems (2 Mesa 2x15 and a 400+ head). I rarely push my rig and usually wind up with sound nirvana from a bass perspective because I'm not afraid to adjust to whatever the soundman needs. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1670 Registered: 10-2006 |
"In my experience once you've sorted how to adjust for the room's acoustics the biggest X factor is just being aware of the fact that working *with* the soundman instead of fighting him is the best way to go about things. My "big rig" can crush most sound systems (2 Mesa 2x15 and a 400+ head). I rarely push my rig and usually wind up with sound nirvana from a bass perspective because I'm not afraid to adjust to whatever the soundman needs." As a soundman, may I politely suggest that everyone get this tatooed on the inside of their eyelids? Peter (who loves turning the bass up in the mains - if the bass player will turn down enough to let him!) | ||
| xlrogue6
Advanced Member Username: xlrogue6 Post Number: 292 Registered: 8-2002 |
Living in the small combo gig reality has recently been greatly improved for me be acquiring this little gem. http://www.ultimatesupport.com/product/AMP-150 I can point the speaker right at me, it holds either of my combos (Walkabout Scout 12, SWR Baby Blue II, the Polytone Teeny Brute is a little too small to sit right) and it folds up small enough to fit in the bag with my cables and pedals. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5672 Registered: 7-2004 |
In my experience, there is an very obvious and simple solution to most sound issues: TURN DOWN YOUR VOLUME! Yet many musicians just plain refuse to do so. This particular affliction is most common to lead guitarists. I recently had to stop playing with one of the best Jerry-style lead players I've ever played with because he was just too damn loud. At rehearsals, where we play in a circle facing each other, he insisted on playing while sitting directly to the side of his amp, so that all of us could hear his speaker from in front of it, but, being directly to the side, he couldn't adequately judge his volume in relation to the rest of the band. So it sounded fine to him, but much too loud to me. At gigs he set up the same way and people in the audience complained to me about his volume. He simply refused to change anything. Very unfortunate as the music was great. But life's too short to put up with the aggravation - especially when this is supposed to be a relaxing hobby. Bill, tgo | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 3896 Registered: 6-2002 |
I've been trying for a few years to get the reggae bands I play with to turn down the volume especially the drummers. I thing from an out front perspective , most of the gigs are big venues so our stage sound rarely affects the FOH but for me its just too loud all the time. I have been using earplugs for about 8 yrs but they are awkward to hear relative levels when I'm playing so judging my own volume becomes a challenge. Just this past weekend I had some ear plugs made that are designed for musicians. I had a mould made of my ear canal in a couple of weeks they should arrive. They have a virtually flat frequency attenuation characteristic so they should allow me to hear everything balanced relative to each other but quieter. I will leave the rest of the band to go deaf. :-) Just a slight digression if I may, am i right in thinking the DI out and Full Range out on my F1-x are out of phase so my rig sound won't affect FOH sound? Jazzyvee (Message edited by jazzyvee on March 05, 2014) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3251 Registered: 5-2009 |
Bill . yes LOUD lead players ,___Still ! LOL ___ And it can have a domino effect . Not good ___. Turning down and really listening is better . Drummers also play a huge roll in this ! Loud drummers will make the whole musical ensemble loud ! I do not like my ears to ring after playing . Tinnitus is not fun ___ | ||
| rustyg61
Senior Member Username: rustyg61 Post Number: 1143 Registered: 2-2011 |
My lead player wears ear plugs & plays way too loud! We tell him to take the ear plugs out so he can hear how loud he is, but he says "No, I don't want to damage my hearing!" We tell him that is the point, he is damaging our hearing with his amp too loud! | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 262 Registered: 6-2012 |
Uh oh...we've gone "there". Speaking as both a bassist and a guitarist, I can relate to the sound challenges faced by the players of both instruments. Electric guitar is loud in its immediate proximity and tends to be very directional - ie: the speaker cab throws the sound out about 20 - 50 feet in a beam. Step out of the "beam" and it is almost inaudible compared to the bass & drums. Electric bass is not as loud in its immediate proximity but is much louder in the room (and beyond). Drums are another issue altogether - they have no volume knob and most drummers that I've played with are quick to point out "the harder I hit, the better the tone". So that usually sets the bar for everyone else. At the risk of being overly simplistic, there is little or nothing that can be done to compensate for any of this as it is directly related to size of the sound waves produced by each instrument. So, the most important thing you can do (besides controlling your volume) is to aim your speaker cab / monitor up at you and step away from it. If your cab is aimed at your feet and you are standing right next to it, you will perceive less high end and, since the sound is blowing right by you, less volume. This will make you want to compensate for both and it's "game on". Also, it is deadly to set up facing each other as your sound is gonna be killing someone and vice versa. If you must set up facing each other, a better thing to do would be to stand near another person's amp so yours is facing you. Along those lines, an interesting thing to do if you have a wireless is to set up as you normally would for your gig and dial in what you think are ideal tone & volume settings for the situation and then walk around the room while playing during a sound check. You'll be amazed at the change in the way you perceive your "golden tone". And - when the audience shows up, that's another variable in play. People are like giant pillows, they absorb high end. as such, you may need to recalibrate slightly at the end of the first set to compensate. One last thing - I believe it was Miles Davis who said "If you can hear yourself, you're too loud". | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3252 Registered: 5-2009 |
Miles really said that ? I am a Trumpet player as well , and a big Miles Davis fan . | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3253 Registered: 5-2009 |
Turn Down ____!  | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5673 Registered: 7-2004 |
As a guitar player, I try and stand at least 6-10 feet in front of my amp, which is also raised off the ground. Bill, tgo | ||
| wayne
Advanced Member Username: wayne Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hey Jazzyvee You're gonna LOVE the musician's ear plugs. I've been using them for well over a decade. They are EXACTLY as advertised - flat frequency response, just everything softer. I've got both -15 and -25 dB versions that I use depending on the situation. Etymotic Research has started making a universal fit version, too. And there's a new company, EARasers, that's also supposed to have a flat frequency reduction. C-Ya............wayne | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 3494 Registered: 10-2002 |
Great photo Wolf. I'm going to steal that for my wallpaper. Wayne / Vince. These are just earplugs right? not in-ear monitors? graeme | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 3898 Registered: 6-2002 |
The ones I have ordered are earplugs only. I did ask about the earplugs that can be used as both ear defenders and in-ear monitors but they didn't recommend them. They only recommend horses for courses. Jazzyvee | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1974 Registered: 2-2005 |
What Wayne said. I started using musicians ear plugs six or seven years ago. I use the -15 dB version by Emtech. It makes a big difference in my hearing at the end of the night. They also came in handy when I saw Mountain and Joe Satriani a few years back. Joe used his full stadium setup in a 1200 seat theater. I could still hear at the end of the night while my friend was pretty much deaf. A thing to consider is whether your health insurance will cover the ear plugs. In my case all I had was a copay for the hearing test with the remainder picked up entirely by insurance. Keith | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3254 Registered: 5-2009 |
Graeme, Thanks , That photo of Miles Davis of is one of a favourite of mine from the music world . It speaks to me . It comes to my mind when " less might me more " . | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 1341 Registered: 1-2005 |
I heard a different version of the expression attributed to Miles (I heard it being from someone else but can't remember who): If you can't hear what other people are playing, you're playing too loud. If you're playing too loud, you aren't listening. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3255 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hello Harry , YES ! That's it ____ And it makes sense to me ! I love it ___ Miles can be a mentor of wisdom ____ " If you can't hear what other people are playing, you're playing too loud. If you're playing too loud, you aren't listening." |
