| Author | Message | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3273 Registered: 5-2009 |
Check It Out ___http://www.ponomusic.com/#home | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3274 Registered: 5-2009 |
I really love the video in the presentation , so many music business faces . I think Neil's heart is really into this . I hope this is a big success , all those who love music will be the winners ____ | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5681 Registered: 7-2004 |
I signed up on kickstarter for a black one. I was certainly going to buy one anyway, so this way I help it launch and save $100. Such a deal! Bill, tgo | ||
| ed_too
Junior Username: ed_too Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2011 |
My local newspaper reprinted an interview with Neil about it from USA Today. I'll try to provide a link it. Neil young urges progress on sound quality on Page 41 of Friday, March 14, 2014 issue of The Star Ledger – Electronic Edition That's it above - if it works. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2130 Registered: 9-2002 |
I hope it's as advertised. I've refused to have a i-whatever player as the sound is awful, shrill, compressed to hell, I can't stand them. J o e y | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 273 Registered: 6-2012 |
I read a remark related to this product that blamed the crappy ("awful, shrill, compressed to hell") sound quality of most reproduced music for the decline in quality of music in general. It has become beat/rhythm heavy at the expense of melody and harmonic interplay because the lower and more percussive frequencies are better reproduced on most current audio systems. I hope the Pono will spark a return to warmth and complexity in recorded music. | ||
| peoplechipper
Advanced Member Username: peoplechipper Post Number: 400 Registered: 2-2009 |
I read his book and love the idea, but don't love that I could wind up hating my 2-3000 cd's in short order...Tony | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1214 Registered: 3-2004 |
I watched the video and got excited, and then I read this article and now I'm not sure what to think: http://evolver.fm/2012/10/04/guest-opinion-why-24192-music-downloads-make-no-sense/ I wish I could try it myself, but $400 is a bit much for me to play around with, and I'd rather spend the money on gear. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5686 Registered: 7-2004 |
This guy writes that Pono doesn't work. Yet numerous music pros listened to it and were amazed (see Young's video of many well known rock stars' reaction to hearing it in Young's car). I'm convinced it sounds significantly better than an mp3 player and is a lot more conveniently portable than a bunch of CDs. I hate the thin sound of mp3s and only use the format for convenience (like right now I'm in Phoenix for Spring Training and have a Fuse mp3 player through a Jawbone Jambox set up in the hotel room - also used it on the plane with excellent quality Shure earbuds). I'm not thrilled at the idea of yet again replacing my music with a new format. I suspect I will acquire Pono downloads slowly rather than attempting to replace everything. And the Pono player plays non-Pono formats too. I'm really looking forward to this. Bill, tgo | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1216 Registered: 3-2004 |
You're right Bill, the reactions of the listeners were remarkable. The only real negative I see is that I wish it had some sort of wifi ability so you didn't have to connect with a USB cable to use it. One commenter I read put forth the argument that it would be much more fun to have all the individual tracks from the master so you could mix them yourself. Maybe some day. (Message edited by hydrargyrum on March 19, 2014) | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5688 Registered: 7-2004 |
My understanding is that the USB connection is only for transferring the downloaded music from your computer to the player, just like I do now with itunes and podcasts. Once it's in the player you just plug it into your stereo, portable speakers, headphones, etc. with a standard mini phone jack. Bill, tgo | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 1218 Registered: 3-2004 |
That was my understanding Bill. I just wish you could transfer the music wirelessly once downloaded, or even better, go direct to the web with the device and purchase it there. Many other competing devices on the market have that sort of functionality. In that regard it is a step back in technology, but it would certainly save costs and be one less thing that could break. | ||
| sparechaynge
Intermediate Member Username: sparechaynge Post Number: 138 Registered: 6-2010 |
hydrargyrum, I call BS on that article. Having heard the difference between the same song recorded at the same sample rate but different bit depths, I can say that 24 bit does make a big difference. The author is correct that most systems can't reproduce ultrasonic frequencies, and that most people can't hear the entire 20Hz-20KHz range. The misinformation lies in that increasing the sample rate also decreases the sampling period (1/the sample rate). This allows for more samples per second and increases resolution. The ability to playback in 24 bit is what has me most excited about Pono. The clarity in the bass range and lower noise floor are very noticeable. Increasing the bit depth, like increasing the sample rate, reduces rounding error (the system is only capable of encoding a set number of values - 16 or 24, respectively). Increasing the bit depth alone changes the quality enough that, if any user is paranoid about intermodular distortion ruining the playback system, the music can still be enjoyed at a better fidelity than an mp3. | ||
| peoplechipper
Senior Member Username: peoplechipper Post Number: 401 Registered: 2-2009 |
The anti-Pono guy is probably also writing articles denying global warming...Tony | ||
| sparechaynge
Intermediate Member Username: sparechaynge Post Number: 139 Registered: 6-2010 |
Hahaha. Seems that way sometimes. | ||
| poor_nigel
Advanced Member Username: poor_nigel Post Number: 267 Registered: 11-2009 |
I like some of Neil's songs, and I like him as a person. However, there is a huge drive to get a new system for playing music out, and not just because of its superior specs. The most pressing matters to musicians today is probably securing intellectual rights of their creations. Pono wants to down load it for $14.95 to $24.95 per album. Downloads via secure means that probably will not be easy for others to grab copies off of and pass around the Internet for free. Mo money, mo money, mo money! My big fights with the Baby Jesus these is do I download a few MP3 off of Amazon.com for a buck each, or do I go to BeeMP3 and down load it there for free?! The cost to replace my 200 CDs? That is a lot of money. Why would huge amounts of musicians get involved in Pone? Let me count the ways = $14.95, mo money, mo money, mo money! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5690 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have no problem with musicians getting "mo money". And I certainly have no problem with paying a reasonable amount for better sounding music. $15-25 for an album that will bring me pleasure for many years for the same cost as a decent dinner that will bring me pleasure for a couple of hours? I say, "bring it on!" Bill, tgo | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 279 Registered: 6-2012 |
If "mo money" coupled with "mo betta' sound reproduction" translates into "mo betta' music" - BRING IT ON! | ||
| jzstephan
Advanced Member Username: jzstephan Post Number: 240 Registered: 1-2012 |
People like to download mp3s because they're small and download fast. The 24 bit 192k files will take forever to download; now. In a couple of years, the net speed will catch up and people will find a way to get them for free again. It may be just putting off the inevitable. Downloaded mp3s are just the 21st century equivalent of radio play. Bands should give them away for free and then hope someone will want them. I for one, would pay 15 bucks for a 24 bit 192k file of Sgt. Pepper. | ||
| dead_head
Junior Username: dead_head Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2013 |
Just my $.02 worth, but did anyone ever read this article? It's food for thought. Again, just my $.02....... http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Rob | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 5691 Registered: 7-2004 |
That's the very same article that's referenced earlier in this thread. And it's just as unpersuasive the second time around. The bottom line is that mp3s suck. I don't claim to be an acoustic engineer, nor do I have super ears, but I can certainly easily hear the difference between mp3s and CDs. And I expect that Pono will provide reasonable download speeds. Even it it takes a long time, I really won't mind setting up a download at bedtime and waking up to great sounding music on my own portable player. I bet if the author wrote about guitars, he would tell us that Dan Electros were actually better sounding, better playing, and better constructed than Alembics because all that aged wood just doesn't hold a candle to particle board! Bill, tgo | ||
| pauldo
Senior Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 1120 Registered: 6-2006 |
I concur that we have excepted the convenience of 'portable and tiny' technology over great sound. Here's what I know: A friend of mine is in local band that I really enjoy. Their second release on CD was listened to so much I knew it forward and back. He decided to have it re-released on vinyl. I put it on my stereo downstairs and could NOT believe the things that I was hearing that weren't audible on the CD. It is a fact that we aren't hearing what we should be hearing with current popular media. Are musicians giving it a great spiel for "mo money" - maybe, but isn't that where the world is these days? I hope that PONO truly does sound like vinyl. | ||
| jon_jackson
Intermediate Member Username: jon_jackson Post Number: 195 Registered: 12-2008 |
Here are a couple of audiophile formats for comparison: 180g vinyl runs between $18 -$34 per lp, depending upon the artist and material. SACD runs about $30 per unit, plus a player which is often over $1200. A player / format with the audio and soundstage attributes of vinyl but with the background quietness and durability of digital would be a wonderful advance... Jon | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3289 Registered: 5-2009 |
I was raised and trained on a love for Audio Tape ! If you can get your hands on a MASTER TAPE @ 15 or 30 ips with Dolby SR encoding , you will hear what I am writing about. Of course then you will need a decent machine and equipment to play it on . ( I have been hoarding several such machines for a long time ) The Tape Project was interesting,but a bit pricy .( better then Vinyl to my ears ) _________BUT NOT as convenient as PONO. http://www.tapeproject.com/ Check it out ! | ||
| jzstephan
Advanced Member Username: jzstephan Post Number: 241 Registered: 1-2012 |
 This sounds good. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3290 Registered: 5-2009 |
The above is a Studer J-37 | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3291 Registered: 5-2009 |
I am on the Studer list, The Ampex List and the MCI Forum | ||
| flpete1uw
Advanced Member Username: flpete1uw Post Number: 278 Registered: 11-2011 |
Wolf, Didn't know there were such lists and forums. Back in the old studio days listening to a 2TRK 1/2" 30ips Studer was the norm. I had no idea at the time how spoiled I've become. I couldn't listen to CD's when they first came out. The shrill!!! Then the lull of complacentcy. I would Love for this or any good replacement standard to take off. Well enough of the back in the day stuff Peace Pete | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3292 Registered: 5-2009 |
Pete , You might like the AMPEX list ! If you ever would like to refurbish an old Ampex machine like a 350/351 AG350 / AG440 MM1000 /MM1100/MM1200 , etc ... ... we are all there to help you on the way . SO many brilliant folks there. Including some " Famous" older Engineers that have worked on many major old record labels . Wolf (Message edited by sonicus on March 22, 2014) | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1727 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think the Pono thing is pretty cool, but mostly because the converters are made by Ayre Acoustics here in Boulder, which will easily blow away the converters on most of the players that most people here will listen to. As far as the format of the files go, I'm not sold. Everyone can find anecdotal evidence where a record sounds better than a CD or this or that format sounds better than another, but 99.9999999999% of the time, this has more to do with the mastering than anything else. The truth is that many tests have been done where people have compared 320kbs mp3s with high resolution audio (88.2k or 96k 24 bit files or higher) and not been able to tell the difference. I have to say that I love the sound of tape. A well calibrated Studer is an awesome thing of beauty. The sound has depth, impact, detail, all that great stuff (I have some reservations about SR, but that's another conversation. It does provide a more black background, which is very nice). But so does my Metric Halo ULN-8. Even playing a properly mastered CD is an incredible experience through its converters in a good room with good speakers, etc. Every kind of recording system has its positive attributes and its drawbacks (badly calibrated tape machines are completely hideous, as are poorly mastered digital recordings through crappy converters). So, I don't think Pono is really all that revolutionary in terms of the media. If it can inspire the end of the loudness wars and bad mastering, then I think it will be an overall positive thing, but other than that, it seems like dramatic posturing about confirmation bias. With well recorded stuff, delivered on properly prepared media, I don't think one system has inherent superiority over another. We certainly don't need 192khz sampling rates to adequately represent the music. Nyquist proved that a long time ago in terms of the theoretical requirements and people like Dan Lavry showed us that somewhere around 60khz is an optimum sampling rate to represent music with as much resolution as we can perceive. Some systems might sound better at higher resolutions, but that is due more to implementation than it is to an inherent improvement at higher rates. In fact, sometimes higher rates can make things worse. But, implementation is why I have some faith in Pono. Ayre is a great company that makes great audio stuff and with them doing the converters, we're guaranteed that part won't be screwed up. In my experience, it's actually harder to screw up digital sound than analog. Once a design is properly implemented and constructed, it pretty much works. Analog requires maintenance and care to deliver optimum audio over time. Each unit needs precise calibration that can't be built into the system by design. Here's an article that addresses some of these issues: http://www.trustmeimascientist.com/2013/02/04/the-science-of-sample-rates-when-higher-is-better-and-when-it-isnt/ One experience I've had is listening to the first playback of the original reels of the master mix from Terrapin Station in 30+ years on a very tricked out tape machine (the whole catalog was being prepped for the Plangent process, which I did not get to experience, as the processing happens later. Here's a circumstance where the digital copy can actually exceed the original analog master) into David Glasser's mastering rig. It was astounding how much depth and detail was in those tapes. And the digital playback sounded indistinguishable to my ears. David's room is capable of incredible resolution, so if there were differences that would carry over to the rigs most of us listen to music on, they would be immediately obvious. Both the tape and the playback immediately drew me into the music and made me forget about what I was listening to. For 90% of us, we can do more for our listening experience by getting good converters and treating our rooms than paying extra high prices for the music we already own. So, I don't think Pono is really necessary. As far as Bill's point that mp3s vs. CDs are a clear difference, I would imagine that's true in most cases, as most mp3s out there are at 128kbs or maybe 256kbs, but a well converted 320kbs is virtually indistinguishable from CD or higher quality. The key here is the conversion, not the inherent quality of the media. AACs are even better. Put it through average sound system or walkman or a car stereo and there is no hope at all of telling the difference. There is a huuuuuuuuuge discussion about all this at gearslutz.com. It brings out all the various entrenched camps of audio professionals about this. And as a final note, I have to be skeptical that a 68 year old man who has spent his life in rock and roll has ears that are capable of incredibly fine resolution, especially at higher frequencies. I know I don't. As always, YMMV. PS. that Ampex list is legendary in the pro audio circles! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3296 Registered: 5-2009 |
Edwin , The Plangent process does indeed have an amazing result on restoration work if it is within our budget. Sonic Solutions "No Noise" was a good choice. There are a few less expensive processes and a few different systems for analog to digital transfers , including Waves Restoration Bundle , Izotope and a few others . Much of what can be done depends on the budget of a project. The 24/192 VS 24/96 argument has been around as long a 24/192 has been possible. In my opinion I do think that one resolution fits all for transfers . ___ Music to lectures and instructional material , Books on Tape , ETC ... ... ... 24/96 is good for many projects. I think that everything is relative as to the variables. 24/192 might not be to everyones liking. The Beauty of PONO is the capability of 24/192 in such a compact convenient "Envelope" and being able to hear 24/192 resolution as in a Protools HD like , top of the line playback resolution system for everyone. Certainly there will be enough music that will be enhanced . I think an ultimate test of 24/192 might be recognition of different Violin Bow resins in a violin solo; http://www.allthingsstrings.com/Bows/CARE-MAINTENANCE/The-Differences-Between-Dark-and-Amber-Rosin Maybe that is a bit far -fetched , but maybe not if you know what to listen for ! And that is my point ,Not everyone may be aware of such differences __ BUT is it awesome to discover them ____ That is why I prefer Alembic Instruments ! I heard ____and I liked ___ what I heard ___! Perhaps Pono can become ____Every Persons HD audio playback : The point of having PONO and 24/192 ___in my opinion | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 1728 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think we're pretty much in agreement, here, Wolf. I will note (probably not for you but for others following the thread) that Plangent does something very different from Izotope RX (which I have and is amazing), Waves restoration, etc. It uses a super sensitive head on a modified tape deck to extract the latent bias signal that resides under the signal at a very high frequency. Given that the bias signal is very stable, any variations in tape speed from wow and flutter is represented in variations in the bias tone on the tape. Plangent reads the bias and then reverses the fluctuations in speed, resulting in an analog sound that gains some of the benefits of a digital signal, in terms of an extremely stable time function. RX and Waves can do a lot to clean up the sound but they simply can't address things like this. I'm still not sold on 24/192 but I am sold on the improved converters. But, with the mastering done on most pop records today, it's all wasted. But hopefully people will hear the horrible distortion from unconscionable limiting and demand cleaner masters. Cleaner masters coupled with the Pono/Ayre converters will result in a greatly improved musical experience. It would be very cool if the converters could be accessed by a digital input so that other sources could utilize them. For me, personally, I have Metric Halo and Grace Design converters in my systems already, so there's no need to replace them; I want this to succeed to see an improvement in the media I can play back. Pono: Every Persons HD Audio Playback™! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3297 Registered: 5-2009 |
Absolutely Edwin, The Plangent Process Addresses issues that nothing else has been able to do. Mr. Jamie Howarth told us about it over on the Ampex List ( the father of the process). http://www.plangentprocesses.com/ http://tapeop.com/interviews/btg/94/jamie-howarth/ Mr. Stephen Barncard (also on the Ampex List ) who has engineered some incredible music releases also rates the Plangent Process very highly( for those who are not familiar with this name ,check out these credits ) http://www.allmusic.com/artist/stephen-barncard-mn0000751579 | ||
| flpete1uw
Advanced Member Username: flpete1uw Post Number: 279 Registered: 11-2011 |
Wolf and Edwin, This is a great discussion and insight about actually making recordings sound as good as they can be instead of the relentless compromise. Wolf, Thanks for sharing all these links. I looked into the Ampeg / Studer lists, it sounds like you need to be a member to peruse? Pete | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3299 Registered: 5-2009 |
Pete , yes The Ampex List requires you to sign up to view or post. The Studer list is the same and is also more closely moderated and more formal in some regards and now more restrictive to the various vintage Studer Machines that are completely roller guide equipped such as the A80 type/ A827 ... ... etc ... ... There are solid reasons for that that I do not need to digress here about. Pete, I will send you an email regarding the Ampex List. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3300 Registered: 5-2009 |
The double post gremlin did it again ____ (Message edited by sonicus on March 24, 2014) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3301 Registered: 5-2009 |
Hello Pete , I tried to send you an email regarding the Ampex list. The email link on your profile did not seem to work . | ||
| flpete1uw
Advanced Member Username: flpete1uw Post Number: 280 Registered: 11-2011 |
Hi Wolf, Please try it again my profile E-Mail was setup as a URL. It's right now. Thank you Pete | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 3302 Registered: 5-2009 |
Pete , Email sent ___ | ||
| cje
Intermediate Member Username: cje Post Number: 149 Registered: 5-2009 |
And an FYI - Acoustic Sounds has been doing high resolution digital downloads for a while now, in various formats. The DSDs here exceed even the Pono format, I believe. I wonder if Pono will play any of these files? http://store.acousticsounds.com/cat/365/DSD |
