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murray
Intermediate Member
Username: murray

Post Number: 156
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 3:27 am:   Edit Post

What a shame that Genz Benz have finished after the Fender takeover. I have a Streamliner 900 - brilliant amp. Just goes to show what happens when the 'big boys' take over. I do believe they shut down SWR as well. Great move Fender - NOT! Glynn
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2133
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 7:31 am:   Edit Post

Murray, where are you reading this?

If true, don't tell me they're adopting Gibson's model of buying other companies and closing them.

The only rationale I could see is they paid JG a ton of money to walk away, with the proviso of bringing him into Fender to design their next round of bass amps. SWRabe walked away completely. Most products like this are designed by 'independent' designers anyway, then produced under a major brand name.

J o e y
ajdover
Senior Member
Username: ajdover

Post Number: 1024
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 7:59 am:   Edit Post

This is true. Both Jeff and Andy are no longer there, and they haven't produced new Genz stuff for some time now. They've shut it down.

As a Genz Benz user (Shuttle 6.2/210T, NX212, Shuttlemax 12.2 and Uber 1288 and 115), this is disturbing. Yet another example of Fender taking a great product and shutting it down (remember Guild? SWR?). Andy actually chimed in about this at Talk Bass, so if anyone wants to find out about it they can there. For myself, I sent Fender a note telling them I'll never buy their products again. If they can do this to Genz, SWR, et. al. they can do it to anyone.

I hope Jeff Genzler lands somewhere else. Can't wait to see what he comes up with.

Alan
lidon2001
Senior Member
Username: lidon2001

Post Number: 532
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 8:30 am:   Edit Post

I'm pretty sure the blame lies with Mr. Genzler. He sold out, for whatever reason, to Kaman. Kaman then was bought by Fender. Not good, not bad, just the way it is.

Don't blame Fender for not needing a bass amp company. They've been making some of the best bass amps for over 50 years. What was the inspiration for the Alembic F2B? Fender, of course.

The question is, why do owners sell out? We must assume that companies like Alembic and say Ken Smith for example have been approached and declined the offers. It's a numbers (dollars, really)game, so I guess we have to assume Mr. Genzler looked at the numbers and said "Sold!" Unless of course, you take pride in your company and choose to see it to the end. Mr. Genzler made the sale, and here we are. I'm not saying Mr. Genzler didn't have pride in his product; the numbers game overcame his pride. The next company did ok with it despite the quality products, but they sold out too. It's the numbers I tell ya, its' the numbers...

To add, I am a ShuttleMax 9.2 owner. Nice amp, but it doesn't give me the tubey warm feeling that my 1963 Fender Bassman does.

(Message edited by lidon2001 on March 26, 2014)
tubeperson
Senior Member
Username: tubeperson

Post Number: 467
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 8:41 am:   Edit Post

Lidon, he sold to Kaman. They kept it alive. When Kaman sold to Fender, the big dog closed it. We should assign the responsibility to whom it belongs.

Michael Tobias, David Nordschaw, Stuart Spector, and Ned Steinberger among others sold, but came back with new businesses in the musical instrument field. Since I own my business, i am aware that other factors may have come into play. They may have realized the best price for the original business when they sold. Why would you expect the music business to be any different form other businesses? Even Leo Fender sold 2 companies. He sadly passed away at his third.
lidon2001
Senior Member
Username: lidon2001

Post Number: 533
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 8:47 am:   Edit Post

Right, Mr. Genzler gave up control. There you have it.
tubeperson
Senior Member
Username: tubeperson

Post Number: 468
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 9:02 am:   Edit Post

He was paid for his company, he did not just give up control. For his sake, I hope he was paid handsomely. Notwithstanding any non-compete agreements, he may start anew. This is the world of business. It is not necessarily a bad thing. What's so bad about maximizing your equity (aka profit) from your own creation? How many times has Fender or Gibson been sold?
5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member
Username: 5a_quilt_top

Post Number: 283
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 9:12 am:   Edit Post

Ironically, I seem to remember a guy named Leo Fender who sold a certain company to CBS and then later resurfaced with Music Man and then G&L. Then, Leo's first company was sold by CBS back to its employees.

Seems to be the blueprint for what's going on here.

Only difference is all three are still in business (for the time being).
tubeperson
Senior Member
Username: tubeperson

Post Number: 469
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 9:19 am:   Edit Post

Some survive some don't. What will happen with Gretsch? Ovation is a shell of its former self. but new companies come around. Who would have imagined Phil Jones Bass, TC Electronics Amps. Ritter, Sadowsky, and so many others etc. The market clamors for the old Fenders and Gibsons. Being a tube guy, I love my Marantz Model 9 mono blocks for home stereo. Most of the youth of today think their stereo is their cell phone and crappy Beats headphones.
cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member
Username: cozmik_cowboy

Post Number: 1678
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 10:03 am:   Edit Post

Not taking any sides here, just making a correction; while the quality did drop off some when Fender took over, Guild is still in business, Alan, and have rebounded in recent years. Current US models are perhaps a tad shy of the originals, but both they & the import models are quite decent (I was playing both - US F-512 & PRC M-120 -in a store just a week ago).

Peter
lidon2001
Senior Member
Username: lidon2001

Post Number: 534
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post

Steve, I don't know what your point is. In my first paragraph, I clearly say he sold to Kaman. God bless the man. I too hope he doesn't have to work another day in his life with the transaction.

I'm just saying when the person with the passion gives up control for the money, this is a likely outcome - the company disappears or becomes a shell of itself. Fender was terrible after Leo left, and Music-Man was dead until Ball picked them up. They needed people with passion to revive themselves. I see the passion leaving GB with the sale to Kaman. Feel free to see it otherwise.

FMIC obviously has their passions, and they have decided that their "Fender lifestyle" doesn't include GB. I can see many reasons why not to have a small competing company in the fold, and now they have the schematics and such for a nice line of digital powered amps with the Fender logo. Blame FMIC for making a business decision? Not me...

So be it; plenty of amps left to choose from, and if you need a GB, plenty on the used market, and Fender will service them for the time being.
murray
Intermediate Member
Username: murray

Post Number: 157
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post

Thanks for adding to my post. I would say that in the past my two emails to Jeff Genzler direct about the amp (nothing to do with takeovers - I didn't know then)have been replied to and were very pleasant and helpful. It was just about settings and stuff. He sounded OK to me. Glynn Murray
tubeperson
Senior Member
Username: tubeperson

Post Number: 470
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post

My point was that it seemed you were blaming Jeff Genz for killing off Genz Benz. All he did was sell a company. As is often the tale, most acquisitions of companies do not fare well for the acquired. Fender did the killing. Jeff hopefully made some money, which he has the right and had the opportunity to do. That what all I was trying to say. I sensed you were angry at Jeff and "blaming" him. As a business owner, I just wanted to give a clearer picture of what actually happened. It is getting increasing difficult to own and operate a business nowadays. Still, many of us toil on. Keep playing those low notes!
5a_quilt_top
Advanced Member
Username: 5a_quilt_top

Post Number: 284
Registered: 6-2012
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post

IMO, Guild & Gretsch have been producing some fine instruments over the last several years under Fender's guidance and Fender itself has also produced some exceptionally fine instruments. Although it took a few decades to rebuild its reputation after the CBS years, I would argue that Fender attained a new "golden era" through this time.

Over the last 5 years, the management philosophy at Fender has been evolving and the new leadership has been deviating from the approach taken during the Schultz years. Whether or not this will allow both the quality AND quantity of the Fender product portfolio to remain intact remains to be seen.

If the Genz Benz, SWR, etc. developments are any indication, they may be "thinning the herd" in order to focus more intensely on their core brands.
jcdlc72
Advanced Member
Username: jcdlc72

Post Number: 316
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 5:15 pm:   Edit Post

...and in turn Genz Benz had acquired TubeWorks (MosValve) before...
peoplechipper
Senior Member
Username: peoplechipper

Post Number: 403
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post

TubeWorks...my lord, such garbage...I never hated gear before but when I heard what people paid for some of those crappy amps, I wished for public floggings and such...Tony
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3353
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Monday, May 05, 2014 - 6:16 pm:   Edit Post

It is a shame regarding a similar apparent fate with SWR . I liked some of their stuff ___
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2147
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, May 05, 2014 - 7:13 pm:   Edit Post

Evidently, FMIC thinks they must have had a lot of weeds to clean out of the KMD property: Now they're going to shutter Ovation's US production in Connecticut. The USA TODAY article mentioned they would furlough 46 employees, so things must have really slowed down for them. I can't remember the last time I saw any new Ovations, come to think of it, and surely they must be one of several formerly key players that Taylor has displaced in the acoustic market.

J o e y
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1759
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Monday, May 05, 2014 - 8:22 pm:   Edit Post

"Don't blame Fender for not needing a bass amp company. They've been making some of the best bass amps for over 50 years. What was the inspiration for the Alembic F2B? Fender, of course."

If they didn't need a bass amp company, why did they buy it? No one held a gun to their head.

And it's pretty arguable about whether their bass amps have been the best. While I love the sound of a vintage Showman with a JBL cabinet, the Sunn cabinets sound a lot better than the Fenders, for the 60s thing. But even that fell by the wayside in favor of Ampeg and and then Acoustic amps by the start of the 70s. No one I knew in the late 70s or 80s was playing Fender bass amps, except a few of the blues guys.

The preamp that Alembic copied was from the Fender Showman, but that was not an original design by Fender. Fender used tube manuals by Western Electric and RCA, which was pretty much standard behavior for amp manufacturers back in the day. Gibson was already using a very similar tone stack in their GA-77 in 1953. By the time Alembic started manufacturing the F2B, the circuit was a classic that was decades old, with a basis perhaps even back to the 20s.
lidon2001
Senior Member
Username: lidon2001

Post Number: 536
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Monday, May 05, 2014 - 8:34 pm:   Edit Post

They didn't buy it - they bought Kaman, and it was part of Kaman. They obviously didn't buy it separately.

They recently closed the Ovation factory in Ct. as well.

(Message edited by lidon2001 on May 05, 2014)
byoung
Senior Member
Username: byoung

Post Number: 1457
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2014 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post

At the risk of politics, this is what happens with publicly traded companies. They are looking for efficiencies, or even just to shrink the pool of competitors.

The cool cats at Alembic would be smart to make an f1x in a slightly different box with an Icepower module for power (oh, c'mon, all the cool kids are doing class d power sections these days...).

Bradley
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 2163
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post

. . . . sorta like this ?

http://www.demeteramps.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=61&product_id=90

J o e y
byoung
Senior Member
Username: byoung

Post Number: 1458
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 2:27 pm:   Edit Post

Precisely. Nice pre + Class D power in a small box. That's what the Genz amps were (and MarkBass, and new GK MB, and...).
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1777
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 7:45 pm:   Edit Post

I'm using essentially just that: an F2B and a Peavey IPR 3000, although the Peavey is a bit bigger than the Icepower module. But still, lots of power in a 7 lb package. The heaviest thing in my rack is the DS-5R. Total cost: $375 (I bought the F2B decades ago for $100).

(Message edited by edwin on May 27, 2014)
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 1231
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 8:08 pm:   Edit Post

$100!!! That was a steal. I've been wanting one for years now to help round out a David Gilmour inspired rig.
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1778
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 8:33 pm:   Edit Post

I actually got a second one during the early days of the internet for $75 with a busted channel. It was an easy fix. They weren't very popular in the early 90s.
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1779
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 8:45 pm:   Edit Post

I actually got a second one during the early days of the internet for $75 with a busted channel. It was an easy fix. They weren't very popular in the early 90s.
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3407
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 8:52 pm:   Edit Post

Such deals Edwin ! When I am graced with such luck I call it
" The Transitive Nightfall of Diamonds " ! Often this occurs after extended periods of manifesting for such a prize ! ( it must just be a coincidence ) :-) OR the universe is approving in a cause and effect response ___to a prior act of kindness on my behalf . It 's really trippy man ! lol _
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1780
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 - 9:17 pm:   Edit Post

Funny you should mention that. Dawn is always commenting on my powers of manifestation. It does seem to come through sometimes.
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5762
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 - 7:47 am:   Edit Post

Hmmmm, this has inspired me tomstart a new thread about bargains.

Bill, tgo

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