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jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4021
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2014 - 9:35 am:   Edit Post

I fell upon this today while searching out some of my band youtube links to send to some companies to try to get a string endorsement deal.

So I thought I'd share it with you.
This is Jerry's version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZsMmTFqSwI

And here is my band Musical Youth doing the version I was looking for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIqOtbg6zWo

Totally different.
Jazzyvee
peoplechipper
Senior Member
Username: peoplechipper

Post Number: 411
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Friday, May 16, 2014 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post

Your version is WAY better...my first impression of Jerry's was it's way too white; the audio equivalent to watching uptight white folks trying to dance to Reggae for the first time...and I should know,I'm from northern Scotland and live in Canada, so I know white, but thankfully my teenage years in Deep Cove,BC taught me Reggae...Tony
jon_jackson
Advanced Member
Username: jon_jackson

Post Number: 202
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post

I agree with Tony. No question.
Jon
pace
Senior Member
Username: pace

Post Number: 1007
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 2:44 pm:   Edit Post

Kind of like Clapton butchering I Shot The Sheriff. If you can't leave a hole in the 1, you have no biz playing reggae.
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5747
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 5:14 pm:   Edit Post

I don't think either Jerry or Clapton were trying to play "reggae" in their versions. If the question is which versions are more classically reggae, then I would agree with you all. But I also really appreciate and enjoy the different and unique take on the song offered by Garcia for what it is, (which certainly is far from uptight white man music).

And I really enjoyed the more classic version by musical youth which, while undeniably musical, raises a question about the youth part - except of course our own Jazzyvee who is certainly at least young at heart.

Bill, tgo
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1766
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2014 - 8:35 pm:   Edit Post

What strings are you going for?
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4023
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 1:22 am:   Edit Post

I was not posting to imply any value judgement. It was just a surprise to find jerry covering a classic reggae track. So really its an observation on how differenty musicians approach the same song. After all thats one of the thing that attracts me to jazz.

Jazzyvee
adriaan
Moderator
Username: adriaan

Post Number: 3111
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 1:52 am:   Edit Post

Nice version, Jazzy!

Agreed, it doesn't make a lot of sense iif you drop the whole feel. Joe Jackson used to do a pretty angry version that still manages to drop the one.
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5748
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post

Sometimes someone wants to interpret a song in a completely different manner or style. It's not a question of "making sense". For example, my band has been fooling around with the Turtles' "Happy Together" done reggae style. Does this not "make sense" because the Turtles didn't do it that way? Jazzy wasn't alleging any value judgements, just juxtaposing two very different versions of the same song. One doesn't have to like both, but ascribing "good" and " bad" judgements based on personal preference has a tendency to close one's mind to new ideas and musical directions. Some musical experiments just don't work for me, but I try to appreciate the attempt and creativity behind it. Admittedly, I may be a little like Bush saying "don't mess with Texas" when it comes to Jerry and the Dead. But consider this, would any of us be playing our beloved Alembics today if it wasn't for Jerry and the Dead?

Bill, tgo
pace
Senior Member
Username: pace

Post Number: 1008
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post

I know there are better JGB versions out there, especially w/ Kemper, Melvin and Kahn backing.... My general displeasure comes when someone takes a tune with potential for a deep pocket or groove, and sets it to 'the marching powder shuffle'....

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rIZ0nPZkfeI
pace
Senior Member
Username: pace

Post Number: 1009
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post

Here's a good one;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jon3Gz6IuBI
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1767
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post

I didn't really want to get into the relative merits of the performances, because it's apples and oranges.

For me, I think Jerry was a folkie at heart. I think the beauty of his performance in his playing The Harder They Come is that it becomes kind of a like a Woody Guthrie song, one that shares the protest of the people against the injustices of big capitalism, where the little guys have no power and get forced into bad situations by injustice with which they are ill equipped to deal. The fact that it was originally a reggae song is almost not even relevant in that context, it could be from a Kentucky mine worker, a Chicago steel worker, a Caribbean fruit picker, a Hawaiian sugar plantation worker, etc., anyone who is trying to find honest work, but gets abused by the system and the powerful, so his interpretation of it, Peruvian Marching Powder Shuffle or not, shouldn't really be judged on whether he's stylistically authentic. He's not playing the song to cop a stylistic feel, so it's not disrespect or laziness on his part if he doesn't include aspects that should be de rigueur for reggae. He's playing it because it's a message that speaks to the human condition.

Additionally, because he performed songs like this, thousands of Deadheads everywhere gained an entry into the reggae world when they wanted to check out where the song came from and what else was there.

(Message edited by edwin on May 18, 2014)
sonicus
Senior Member
Username: sonicus

Post Number: 3379
Registered: 5-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post

Jazzy , I like your tone on the tune. Great Band !
Great version ___

I am sure all here have seen this but here is the Man himself ___http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGE4dnrPPZQ

Mr. Jimmy Cliff makes me feel it ___SO much ___.
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 11332
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post

To add to what Edwin said, I would guess that Jerry also enjoyed improvising over the chord progression. His playing in the solo section is very nice; it sounds like he was having fun.

While reading through the comments in this thread, I thought of the example of John Coltrane covering My Favorite Things. Of course if Coltrane would have had Julie Andrews in his band maybe the feel would have been more like the original. (This is amazing to watch by the way)
pace
Senior Member
Username: pace

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post

Point taken, Edwin.

But I make no apologies for expressing my pet peev for the marching powder shuffle~ when someone calls out 'harder they come' at a jam, I really hope, and try my hardest to make sure it doesn't turn into that. One of my other peevs is when there's a funk jam or break and the guitarist turns it into a I-VII-I vamp. Those two top my list... That said, I get the defensiveness, and sometimes within the band, once things get rolling its hard to change. I don't think jazzy, tony or myself were trying to bait anyone. The only reason I brought up Clapton, was because even he has mentioned some regret in the way he covered 'sheriff'.... Of course Jimmy Cliff, Musical Youth, and JGB are apples and oranges. But, if that was Jazzy's first impression of JGB covering the tune, well IMHO there are much better renditions out there. I think the 'relative merits' are worth mentioning..... day in day out, that's what all of us deal with, and each day things hopefully things progress to zen....
pace
Senior Member
Username: pace

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 1:00 pm:   Edit Post

Coltrane and Andrews are apples and oranges, Dave!!! You should know better, and besides,... Elvin Jones never was one for the marching powder shuffle!!!!.... ;)
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1768
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 1:09 pm:   Edit Post

I wasn't really responding to what you wrote particularly. It was the concept more generally. I kind of get the sense that for people who really know one artist's material that the difference between difference versions can seem a lot more significant than to someone who sees it all from outside. Not a dig on Jerry, but to a lot of people, it all sounds the same. I get it, but that's because I love Jerry. However, there was a time when I was so sick of the marching powder effect that I did write it all off as sounding the same. But your points are well taken. I don't think anyone is trying to bait anyone and I really wish we could all have this discussion in person over a couple of pints! Not to get too maudlin, but I do think we're all family!

I have a hard time playing this song with people who only play it because Jerry did or they like soloing over it and have no clue about what the message is. I think the message is important (I used to play in a band where the writers wrote some obscure songs, so it became kind of a joke, where every song was reduced to man's inhumanity to man or Dan's (our keyboard player with mad mechanic's skills) inhumanity to van. Or sometimes van's inhumanity to Dan. But I digress). I'll never forget playing at a very tony country club and our singer called out Inner City Blues. After the set I told her that she was courageous to bring such a message right to the face of power. She had no idea what I meant and said she thought it was a song everyone liked because it has a good groove. It might be because of this kind of unawareness that music has lost its power to effect change. Or at least to make people think that it does.

Julie Andrews in Trane's band! Awesome!

But, the most important question still remains after all this THTC discussion, what kind of strings? :-)
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 11333
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 1:17 pm:   Edit Post

:-)

I love the intensity of Jones and Garrison in the video. It's just amazing how tuned in to each other they all are.
pace
Senior Member
Username: pace

Post Number: 1013
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 1:23 pm:   Edit Post

There's pints on my end of the conversation, Edwin... So feel free to indulge!... I don't consider this 'drinking alone' and neither should you.... Lol
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4026
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 3:55 pm:   Edit Post

In terms of how we, (Musical Youth), deal with covers is like this.
The lead singer Dennis Seaton has his own vocal style which he is recognised for and does not feel any desire or need to attempt to sing like anyone else regardless of the song he is performing. In terms of the music side of things we try to keep close enough to the original track so that there is authenticity to what we are doing.

However with most reggae songs the primary vibe of a track is in the bass line with support for the drums so if I changed the bass line too much or the drummer was playing steppers instead of a one drop beat, even though it may sound good, it would not sound like the right song or version of a song regardless of what the rest of the band were doing. And...... since we are a reggae band that would be a crazy thing to do unless it was for deliberate effect.

At the moment our live shows are themed "When Reggae Was King" so the aim is to celebrate some of the great artistes and music from mainly the 70's and very early 80's.
On a personal level my primary bass influence for reggae is the wailers Aston Barrett and whenever I play a track from the wailers I try to capture as much of his melodic feel and tone as I can from the version we are covering. The good thing is that many of the wailers later songs have much earlier recorded versions both live and studio, which I study and utilise to add variety to the bass lines.

I have listened to loads and loads of reggae bands and in my view most of the ones who are not getting the vibe going are failing because of the same reason... and that is, they think that because it is just a few simple repetitive chords, it is so simple and does not warrant attention to detail. So what they play is what they think reggae sounds like rather than listening properly and playing what it does sound like which usually results in with far too many notes and rhythms being played.

Then there is Steely Dan who are a law unto themselves in whatever genre they delve into and their Haitian Divorce is a perfect example of taking a simple genre and producing a superbly complex and musical track that only they could come up with. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWYchJI0Cv8

I'm very new to Jerry's music and know little about it but from what I hear Jerry is doing a version of the song in the style of the Jerry Garcia band and not trying to do a reggae version of the song.


Jazzyvee
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5750
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2014 - 6:00 pm:   Edit Post

"... Jerry is doing a version of the song in the style of the Jerry Garcia band and not trying to do a reggae version of the song."

In the words of the late great Ed McMahon: "You are correct, sir".

Bill, tgo
pauldo
Senior Member
Username: pauldo

Post Number: 1157
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2014 - 4:36 am:   Edit Post

And the string endorsement brand is. . . . . . .

There was an interesting article in The Sun with Pete Seeger that spoke to what was mentioned earlier - it isn't so much about how it sounds, it is about the message.
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4029
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2014 - 8:22 am:   Edit Post

No idea what the string endorsement brand is yet. I found a company on like that you fill your details in and they apparently seek to find you and endorsement deal.
Will let you know.

Jazzyvee
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 1230
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2014 - 7:37 pm:   Edit Post

I think this conversation can have a positive meaning for fans of both versions. Jerry must have thought that the song was meaningful, and he respected it enough to bring it to others. Some people would probably never had heard it otherwise. I'm sure we can all agree that music preference is a matter of taste. Personally I prefer Louis Armstrong's version of "Oops, I did it again" to Brittany Spears' version. But for some people, they may find the inner workings of their heart to be stirred . And who am I to say that it's wrong?
kmh364
Senior Member
Username: kmh364

Post Number: 2289
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 6:35 am:   Edit Post

I LOVE Jerry and the Dead, including the many spin-offs, as well as Reggae, especially Jimmy Cliff, Peter Tosh and Bob Marley!

Jerry loved to cover other artists in his own inimitable style. It was a way for him to pay tribute to those songwriters/performers, as well as to serve as an an outlet for his insatiable musical appetite. He simply performed songs that he loved when freed of the "confines" of the Dead!

His versions are just as valid as the originals, albeit in different ways. This is why they make all flavors: Vanilla, no matter how good, doesn't appeal to everyone and gets boring after a while, even for afficionados.

Enjoy!
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1769
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 9:39 am:   Edit Post

I hope none of my comments were interpreted as a value judgment about either version. I enjoyed them both quite a bit. Dennis' interpretation and energy are excellent! I know it's highly unlikely, but if you guys ever did a US tour, I'd be there in a minute!

As far as the Jerry version goes, let's just say that us deadheads are Notoriously Picky™! We all have arguments for our favorite versions and will insist that each one is substantively different.
pace
Senior Member
Username: pace

Post Number: 1016
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 8:08 pm:   Edit Post

Still caught up on the relative merits....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrnZSLwfzVs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMyC82XbHXs

... and to echo Edwins' sentiments, Its not a value judgement by any means.....
edwin
Senior Member
Username: edwin

Post Number: 1770
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 - 9:08 pm:   Edit Post

Oh, geez. Even Michael Franti had something to say about this.

<ducking,>
jazzyvee
Senior Member
Username: jazzyvee

Post Number: 4031
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post

Interesting you show eric clapton's version of I shot the sheriff because my favourite version is the one from The Wailers Burnin' album and it really irritated me when Eric omitted the part in the song where Bob sings " If I am guilty I will Pay......." I think it is a great line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QRWJjmGoZBA#t=152\

Since Eric's version became a hit everyone else omits it too even Bob.( though I don't know if he had already changed his version for live shows before eric covered the track)
I used to be in a reggae band in the mid 70's with some guys in my neighbourhood and we always played the full version from the Burnin The Wailers version.
jazzyvee

(Message edited by jazzyvee on May 21, 2014)
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5754
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 8:44 am:   Edit Post

Just take a take a brief detour related to Jazzy's last point, I have a pet peeve along the same lines with the Dead's version of Dylan's "When I Paint My Masterpiece". The Dead leave out the bridge couplet from the original which, IMHO, is one of the all time great lines in rock 'n roll, and pure Dylan:

"Sailing 'round the world in a dirty gondola,
Oh to be back in the land of coca cola"

And, of course, whenever I hear a Dead-style band do the song, they too leave it out.

Bill, tgo
pace
Senior Member
Username: pace

Post Number: 1017
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 - 3:10 pm:   Edit Post

1998 'other ones' tour they put the bridge back in... FINALLY.... Lol
tom_z
Senior Member
Username: tom_z

Post Number: 628
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 1:20 pm:   Edit Post

Here's one too - When I Paint My Masterpiece

Cheers!
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 5757
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2014 - 5:57 pm:   Edit Post

Well, at least they got the words right, but they completely changed the chord progression and melody of the bridge.

Bill, tgo

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