| Author | Message | ||
| slapbass
Junior Username: slapbass Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2005 |
I purchased my first fretless this weekend (non Alembic) a Pedulla Pentabuzz. I can't believe that I waited 15 yrs to try and play a fretless bass. This is the best thing I could have ever done for ear training and faster left hand licks. But here are the questions What type of flat wounds produce what sound? I know there are a lot of TI fans here and have ordered a set for the S1. The Pedulla came with Chromes installed at the store. This is the first time my fingers have ever played flat wound strings. Are there any cool setups I should know about for a fretless bass? Thanks, Dale | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 422 Registered: 10-2003 |
I always used roundwounds on fretless (rotosounds, to be exact). If you're using the entire neck it will wear evenly. Steel wool to remove the grime every now and again will keep it pretty. John | ||
| slapbass
Junior Username: slapbass Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2005 |
John, The Pedulla has a coating on the finger board. Would this make any difference? Dale | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 476 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, you would not want to use steel wool on it :-) Round vs. flats are a personal choice. I happen to favor flats and love the TIs, to the point of not being curious enough to try Chromes - though would be interested to hear your comparison. The coated board will give you some protection against scratches and make it more practical to use rounds, if that's what you want. As for setup, I think about the only thing notably different is that you probably want less neck relief than on a fretted. Some people say "perfectly straight", but I find you still need a very tiny bit (like .010" or slightly less, depending on how you play). Oh, and setting intonation is slightly more of a challenge, but I still feel it's quite important. Don't go nuts with it until you get more comfortable with fretless, you'll probably find yourself gradually dialing it in over time. Enjoy. | ||
| tubeperson
New Username: tubeperson Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 |
Pedulla is very specific about voidng the warranty on their Buzz and PentaBuzz necks if Rotosound roundwounds are used. I am using D'Addario half rounds, which sound great and do not wear out the "glass". Nickel is easier on the fretborad than steel. They come in a light brown package for each string. In fact, the "D " and "G" strings are heavy, and really boost the tone. I still plan to get an Alembic fretless with Series II electronics. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 423 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh, yeah, the epoxy-coated fretless. I totally forgot the Pedulla had that and not plain ebony. I have no clue how to maintain one of those. John | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1997 Registered: 5-2002 |
This might be a good time to bring up something that's been bothering me (well maybe "bothering" is the wrong word, but it's been on my mind). I mainly play fretted bass, but hope to start playing more fretless. On the fretted, I use a lot of side to side vibrato. My tendency is to do this on the fretless as well, but I'm probably causing an inordinate amount of fingerboard wear when I do this. I'm guessing that most fretless players move parallel to the string when applying vibrato; and I've been paying more attention to this when I play. But I am curious as to what other players do. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 424 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have always done both side-to-side and classical rolling-of-the-finger vibrato, and on basses I've had for 10-plus years I've never had any fingerboard wear issues that were more than cosmetic. This includes an old rosewood P-bass neck on an old Jazz Bass which probably got 10- to 15-hours a week for several years and a Carvin 5-string that I played *to death* for a decade (while the Alembic sat in it's case) and which my brother now plays. On the other hand, I had a maple-fingerboard Musicman Stingray fretless which got ugly in a hurry and seemed literally to have soft spots on the fingerboard which wore very quickly. I also don't sweat much at all, which probably contributes greatly to the mileage I've gotten. I'm of the opinion that whatever comes *somewhat* naturally (and isn't totally heinous technique) and gets the sound you're after can't be all wrong (unless you're just lazy, which is of course totally unforgiveable)... John | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 477 Registered: 11-2002 |
Personally, I think bending strings on a fretless is just plain wrong - even putting aside the fingerboard wear issue. But if it works for you, fine. Just don't do it on mine :-) | ||
| slapbass
Junior Username: slapbass Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have been a bad string bender for years!! I guess I listened to way to much blues as a kid. When I first picked up the fretless I still bent strings for the first couple of hours but it just doesn't produce the same tone as a good vibrato technique. My ear told my hand to move differently and now just vibratos on the fretless. I filly picked up the 75 S1 last night and I believe that the fretless is about all I want to play anymore. Unless a little fret destroying slap is needed (WoooHooo). The TI strings came in last night and I haven't put them on yet. A little case of this bass is a bear to intonate! The LaBella flats should be in by Friday. Hopefully this weekend I will have the patience to restring and break the fist set in. Dale | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 1999 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks for the feedback on the vibrato question!! | ||
| slapbass
Junior Username: slapbass Post Number: 34 Registered: 3-2005 |
Well I just installed the TI Flats. These strings are very bright compared to the Chromes. I will play them a while to see if the tone changes with a little play on them. The B string feels a little weird with the larger spaces inbetween the ribbon windings. I have another question how close should the slots in the nut be to the fret board? | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 403 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dale, Check out Brother Joey's excellent post in the "Must Reads" section on setting up your Alembic. http://alembic.com/club/messages/16271/16318.html?1107545767 It's helped me through two set-ups with a third currently in progress. I just switched my fretless to TI Jazz Flats as well (stepping away from DR Hi-Breams) and needed to reset the action because the TI E string sits a little lower than the DR did. It's close to set now, with a gig coming this weekend. I've been tweaking both my Epics in preparation. Mike (Message edited by dadabass2001 on July 06, 2005) | ||
| kungfusheriff
Advanced Member Username: kungfusheriff Post Number: 336 Registered: 8-2003 |
slap, The TIs will settle in a bit after a few hours of play, but they'll remain on the bright side for a good length of time--my set is almost two years old and I still have to turn the treble all the way down on my Baby Blue, which admittedly is a bright amp, but the E,A and D string sound is worth it. For some reason, the G is "plinky." I've found that plucking primarily with my middle finger, which is a little meatier than my index, beefs up the tone substantially. Don't understand your question about the nut slots...are you asking how high the nut should be cranked to compensate for the TIs' low tension? If so, the answer is the strings will tell you by vibrating against the frets and generally sounding bad. My nut is up about 2mm on the E side and nearly flush on the G side. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 478 Registered: 11-2002 |
(kfs - this guy doesn't have frets) I find it fascinating that we have people here complaining about these TI low tension, nickel, flat wounds, being too bright or thin sounding. Turn down the treble to compensate for using nickel flats??? But I acknowledge that several well-respected members, including dela and dfung, have made the thin-sounding charge, so it's quite curious. I leave the treble flat and actually turn down the bass a lot, though I then add a moderate boost using the SF-2, with a low pass set at 80 Hz with Q/damping a little beyond 1:00. Don't get the "plinky" G problem, but maybe more on that later. And yes, plucking with a fleshier part of your finger, or angling your fingers back toward the bridge so you use more of the side than the tip, will round out the tone a lot. Or you can be punchy and brighter when you like, they seem very flexible to me (in more ways than one). As for nut height, the general rule for fretless is that the strings should very nearly come down to the end of the fingerboard. 2mm on the E would be excessive for a fretless, I think. On my B string, I can't quite slip in a playing card without friction, about a 1/4" away from the nut. That would be roughly 0.01", or 0.254 mm if my math is right (wasn't a moment ago...). Remember the general rules here. If you have buzz problems in the first 3-5 frets, then maybe it's a nut height problem. If the problem is higher up the neck, then first check the relief, and second check the bridge height (these interact somewhat). Nut height is really a fine tune for the first few positions, after you have the rest right. But as a starting point for fretless, the nut should be low enough so that the strings are very nearly grazing the end of the fingerboard. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 583 Registered: 6-2002 |
The guy who defretted my Epic returned it to me with the strings touching the fingerboard at the nut end, and I had tremendous intonation problems on the lowest 'frets'. Only remedy was to raise the nut so the strings were just above the fingerboard. (Reminder to oneself: I still need to file down the nut, so I can replace the nut base underneath.) | ||
| slapbass
Junior Username: slapbass Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2005 |
The setup on my Eden Wt-800 is pretty much dead flat the lowest bass is boosted about half a tick mark and the highest treble is just barely boosted off the 0 mark. The preamp on the bass has the bass boosted about halfway and the treble is flat. The pick up pan is more towards the bridge pick up ( the pickups are p-j config) this seems to get me more of the waahh sound. The TI strings really mellow out after about four hours of playing. They are really good sounding except for the low B. I believe it needs a little more tension. But E-G are GREAT!!! vibratos really come out with little effort not as hard as the Chromes. These strings are amazing it is more of an upright sound now in the low end and very Baldwin like in the upper registers. I never heard the "Plinky" sound but I play with the bass very high and my hand rolled towards the bridge plucking the strings with my first three fingers in between the 24th fret and the neck pick up. This position has always given me a vary full sound. After the strings settled in a bit they intonated so easily compared to the Chromes. I don't know if I even should try the LaBella's or not. But probably will try them out on Saturday and see what kind of tone I get. No rock unturned and no string un-tensioned. The nut on the Pedulla is REALLY low. The B is about .005 off of the finger board and the G is actually about .010 below the finger board. The G string is actually eating into the finish on the finger board on the G. Another nut problem is it came unglued last night not a big deal but on a bass that is over $3000.00 this should not happed. I re-glued the nut and dropped an e-mail to Pedulla about the problem this morning. Thanks for all of the help guys!! Dale | ||
| tbrannon
Junior Username: tbrannon Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 |
This seems a good place to ask a question that will potentially reveal my ignorance. I love the tone of my fretless, but also play music where some slapping is nice every once in a while. Just an idea, but if I were to throw a single fret down at the bridge end of the neck, could I have the best of both worlds? Fretless "mwahhh" with a slap tone similar to what I get on my fretted basses? I'd probably have to experiment with the action and setup, but theoretically, would it work? The fretless I play is a late 70's Peavey T-20, so even if I were to give it a shot and not like it, I'd only have a single pulled fret at the end of my fretboard as a testimony to my stupidity. Any thoughts from those MUCH more experienced than myself? | ||
| jagerphan84
Intermediate Member Username: jagerphan84 Post Number: 192 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hi Tobin, I'm sure some of the wiser club members will chime in soon, but here's my thoughts: A fret at the high end of a fretless would most likely make contact with the strings when you are playing lower on the neck. That would likely cause significant buzz, if not stopping the string entirely. Maybe it would be possible to set up the relief in such a way that there is suitable clearance, but I can't picture the neck being very playable with that amount of relief. A possible alternative could be a small metal plate at the end of the fingerboard, mounted flush with the board. This should bring the slap tone somewhat closer to that of a fretted, without getting in the way of the strings when you're playing fingerstyle. Just my $.02! Adam | ||
| tbrannon
Junior Username: tbrannon Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2004 |
Adam, Thanks for that...I've considered something similar in the past. Perhaps I'll give it a go! -Toby | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 426 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wayne Kamp in Indy used to install a "slap plate" at the end of his fretless fingerboards. They were brass, and mounted as Adam describes. By all accounts they work well. John | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 2053 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hi Tobin, it has been done with a fretless Alembic before. I'm bad in reseaching this club but my ol'friend and Moder Dave will do his magic and I am pretty sure he will come up with that picture that I'm referring to: it was a maple-ish bass, fretless with a narrow brass "slap plate". Paul the old bad one | ||
| tbrannon
Junior Username: tbrannon Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2004 |
Paul & John, Thanks for the help. I think I'm gonna give her a go. | ||
| jagerphan84
Intermediate Member Username: jagerphan84 Post Number: 193 Registered: 10-2003 |
I dug these pics out of the BunnyBass archive (which I HIGHLY recommend that you join, it's free if you email bunnies@bassbunny.com). I hope I'm not stepping on any copyright-toes here, but again all photo credit to www.bunnybass.com.   Really beautiful! Makes me wish I had ordered one on my custom... but there's always the next one! Adam | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2009 Registered: 5-2002 |
Paul; the picture was at Bunny Bass, and you now have to be a member to access the archive there. Here is the previous thread that talks about this subject. In that thread, our fellow club member Karl posted a link to his fretless P-bass with a brass plate at the end of the neck. | ||
| bassplayer2106
Junior Username: bassplayer2106 Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2005 |
There was a British company back in the 80's called Wilkes.They brought out a fretless bass with I think slap plates and I think that they had piezos underneath to add to the percussive attack.They didn't last long and didn't look anywhere near as good as that above. | ||
| tbrannon
Junior Username: tbrannon Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks Dave! I did a search of my own before posting, but apparently didn't enter the magic combination of words. ;) | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 427 Registered: 10-2003 |
Now I'm curious about the one-piece walnut-necked SI. I've never seen one before. John | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2012 Registered: 5-2002 |
John; it's a graphite neck bass. Where the neck passes through the body, it's covered with a layer of wood. See for instance, this bass in the Showcase. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 428 Registered: 10-2003 |
That was my first thought, but I don't think I've ever seen a graphite necked bass with a wood fingerboard. I thought all the Alembics with graphite necks had phenolic fingerboards? I learn something new every day (if I'm paying attention!). Thanks. John | ||
| slapbass
Junior Username: slapbass Post Number: 39 Registered: 3-2005 |
Slapping on a fretless just don't seem right. Where would the classic slight fret buzz as the undertone of the percussive sound be? Not to mention the finger board damage!! I play a LOT of slap just look at the last for frets of your bass there destroyed. I usually replace frets 21 -24 twice a year from slapping my beloved Tobias bass (with Pope preamp) I won't slap the Pedulla with the coated fingerboard at all. Any way I finally strung up the LaBella flats. These Strings were very easy to setup and intonate!! But the sound is very interesting at first I thought the strings had been played on for at least two years. The stings were very dead sounding. But after about 30 min. of play bammm The sound totally changed. These stings are amazing playing sliding harmonics are so powerful. The classic fretless whah sound is very very minimal with really low action (which I am not use to, I like my action as most would say really high with a .015 relief neck on a fretted bass). My playing speed increased a lot just going to a fretless bass but the LaBella flats made it even faster. The string tension is higher than the TI flats which doesn't bother me. The final answer is I stung the TI flats on B E and G and the LaBella flats on A and D. AWESOME AWESOME I could not ask for a better sound or playability. The Chromes will be saved if I ever play any more Reggae on a fretted bass. Dale | ||
| blazer
Member Username: blazer Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2003 |
That Alembic Fretless easily is one of the best looking basses I ever saw. I guess it's the plainer woods that make it look understated and I like that. | ||
| jagerphan84
Intermediate Member Username: jagerphan84 Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dale, The first thing that comes to my mind when thinking about slapping fretless is Les Claypool. He sure seems to pull it off with a great sound, albeit a very distinct one. (For a good reference give a listen to 'Tommy the Cat,' or better yet, check out the video!) Adam | ||
| bassplayer2106
Junior Username: bassplayer2106 Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2005 |
Pino Paladino used to do it a lot back in the 80's when he was playing with Paul Young.I think he used to use roundwound strings on his musicman,I should imagine that the neck on it looked a bit of a mess. | ||
| slapbass
Junior Username: slapbass Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2005 |
Adam, I have watched Les play he is good and has a great sound. But when I was playing a music festival last year and had a little chat with Les he showed me his primary bass. There was a divot across the fret board just above the end where he slaps the strings. That I would never do to a fretless. Les has his sound and it is an interesting one. I personally do not want to spend my hard earned money for that fret board repair. I would rather save for another bass. Just my two cents. The strings are soundings better all the time I love this mixture of strings for the harmonic very piano like qualities they are producing. Anyway to nice of a day to be inside going for a ride. Charlotte is calling me (the 1999 ultra classic Electra glide with a 130,000 miles). Dale |
