| Author | Message | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 499 Registered: 6-2012 |
Preface: Pete Townshend once said "Never let the music get in the way of a good show". As of this morning, I have parted ways with a project largely because of differences of opinion re: how perfect the performance needs to be before gigs can be booked. Don't get me wrong - I don't like to be a part of a half-a$$ed project - I play Alembics, need I say more - ? But I also don't like to spend week after week paying for a rented practice space as a member of the "Rehearsalots" with no gigs in sight. IMO, if the musicians are experienced / prepared and have agreed to a set list of material that is well-matched to their capabilities and the instrumentation available - it should require no more than 4-6 weeks (preferably less) - with rehearsals scheduled once or twice a week - to go out and play a typical club gig. The ex-project was adamant that everything be "perfect" before a gig could even be booked. I took exception with that by saying that without a booking, the project would never achieve the required polish because there was no goal to work toward (no focus) therefore guaranteeing it would never be booked. Plus - nothing puts the polish on a band faster than repeated live performance. Opinions - ? | ||
| rustyg61
Senior Member Username: rustyg61 Post Number: 1639 Registered: 2-2011 |
David, I'm sorry the band didn't work out for you, but I agree with you & have often said that you get more out of one gig than months of practice. With a live show the safety net is removed & you are forced to play it right! I have played in bands where we worked up 10 songs a week until we had enough to gig. If everyone does their homework the songs should come together quickly & all you have to work on is endings. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 6047 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have often said that playing with other people for 1 hour is the equivalent of playing by yourself for 10 hours, and playing before an audience for 1 hour is the equivalent of playing in the studio for 10 hours. Bottom line is that it depends on the gig. If I'm playing the local bar for drinks and tips, a little lack of polish is eminently acceptable. If I'm playing an amphitheater before a large crowd, I'd like to be a little more rehearsed. Which brings me some other words of wisdom(?) I've espoused for many years. For every 100 times that I know I screwed up, my band-mates catch 10 and the audience catches 1. just my $.02 Bill, tgo | ||
| pauldo
Senior Member Username: pauldo Post Number: 1491 Registered: 6-2006 |
David - I agree whole heartedly with you ideals. Sounds like leaving was difficult but certainly appropriate. And to mirror Bill's statement - "The audience may or may not notice when a mistake is made - BUT when you nail it - everyone knows!" good luck. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4127 Registered: 5-2009 |
A quote from the great Trumpet player Harry James; If I do not practice one day , I can tell the difference. If I do not practice two days my band can tell the difference. However, if I do not practice for three days everyone can tell the difference ! | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 500 Registered: 6-2012 |
Thanks for the feedback. Yes it was a difficult decision. I really liked the drummer - we locked in pretty good. I should also mention this: The "tipping point" for me occurred the other night when leaving rehearsal. Another musician who was rehearsing in the same facility (and who doesn't know me) called out to me as I was getting in my car and said "hey man, you guys sounded good tonight." That put some perspective on it because I figured if it sounded good to him - minor mistakes and all - there is no reason to not start booking bar gigs. | ||
| peoplechipper
Senior Member Username: peoplechipper Post Number: 596 Registered: 2-2009 |
You never get perfection live, it's more important to know that you can work through it and salvage the song; that's why you should drink at practice so you're in the same state as a gig and can properly react...I've seen bands who clearly didn't drink at practice who got way drunk and I've never thrown a pint mug at anyone but I thought they deserved one...(I still didn't, but...) | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 2215 Registered: 2-2005 |
If your area is anything like mine there is so much overlap in the set lists that most players should be able to drop in and be good enough from the start. Some rehearsal is needed to discuss timing, endings, breaks and to go over new material but it shouldn't take months. Another thing I have had happen in multiple bands is after a couple of private rehearsals we do some public ones via open mic's. These gave us a chance to see how everybody reacts and how our stage sound is in the real environment. Since it is an open mic nobody expects anything close to perfection so there is less stress on the performance. It also wasn't uncommon to get booking offers from the club after it was over. My feeling is if you feel stressed with a band's environment it isn't worth hanging around just to play. I've always used music as a release and if it doesn't do that then it isn't fulfilling its purpose. Keith | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 2365 Registered: 11-2004 |
Been there with bands like that, unless you are all dot readers then it will never be 'ultra perfect', jeeze, it's a live band in a bar or wherever you are, if they want it sound exactly like the song it can be pretty boring playing it. As far as mistakes go, when I saw Level 42 and they played 'Hot Water', to which they have been doing for 30 years, Gary Husband got the intro timing all wrong and Mark King stopped the song and re started it so if they get it wrong what chance have the rest of us have ? | ||
| smokin_dave
Senior Member Username: smokin_dave Post Number: 416 Registered: 10-2002 |
I was with a band for 10 years and we rehearsed maybe twice during that whole period to learn a few originals and we played shows three to five times a week. Another band I was with demanded two rehearsals a week with maybe 1 show booked a month.I didn't last long with that band especially when I was given a song to learn,learned it and 4 rehearsals later this band could not perform this song properly.I had it down in an hour.Needless to say I made my fond farewell to this group post haste. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 2368 Registered: 9-2002 |
For me it always depended on the players. I was in several great bar bands that essentially operated where we took home a 'work-up tape' for next week. You learned your part, they really did learn theirs. Got to the gig, everyone's 'radar' warmed up, and we'd work in those tunes (usually 3 or 4) thru the night, and it worked fine. After some months, you had a playlist long enough for two nights or more. Handy and relatively painless. I was in a couple 'we gotta rehearse all the time' bands. Some of them needed to woodshed 25 hours a day (still wouldn't help . . ), and we didn't gig a lot, so 'the nerves' would set in while the leader was going thru his Rolodex of tunes, and he'd invariably call a lot we NEVER rehearsed. Brilliant . . . . In a way, it seemed like weaker players always wanted to rehearse a lot more: Confidence issues maybe, stage fright (which has never happened to me), who knows? Then there's always the band where (insert name here) where ONE guy was always drunk/high, insisted he played WAY better that way. Next . . . or my particular favorite: I can't drink (I get real sick real fast) and I was always afraid of drugs, so a few times, I was the ONLY straight person on the gig, and I'd let go as I wouldn't 'party' with them. Puh-leeze . . . . only to be replaced by a user who couldn't even tune his axe. Did wonders for my confidence. But then on the other hand, I got more than a few gigs where they'd 'had enough' of the drunk I was replacing. In one case it was a real gas, as it was a great band (save for that guy), they knew their stuff backwards and forwards, and I knew the tunes already, so it was really 'plug and play', so I guess the pendulum would come back to be from time to time. But then again . . . he was picked up by a nationally touring artist (who he's still with, but they're all big-time abusers). Whaddya do ? Most bands I was in, we all had 'day jobs', so really that cut down on rehearsing more than anything. Had I had more chances to only play, I was never averse to rehearsing IF it was positive and everyone had their 'game face' on. Plus anymore, I've completely and utterly lost any desire to ever play in a bar again. Ever. My 'want to' has been eclipsed by 'I'm breaking this axe over the head of the first $&#R$^@# that gets in my face'. I honestly don't trust myself not to go ballistic and start drumming heads or anything else I can get a piece of, so it's just not an option ever again. I'm way too old to get thrown in jail for a bar fight. So I suppose Nature has run its' course. It seems the ironic thing is all I actually do is rehearse anymore, playing around the house. But then, I never have a drunk guitar player to hassle me, and the ice machine doesn't make any noise ! Joey | ||
| mtjam
Advanced Member Username: mtjam Post Number: 302 Registered: 11-2011 |
Ah, rehearsal... I joined up with a band last year that practices each week. Previous to that, I don't think I had regularly rehearsed with a band for over 10 years (despite gigging regularly with many different musical projects during that time). I already knew a lot of their material when I joined, and within a month or two I knew everything else that they do. We are only gigging 1-4 times a month. Did I mention that I have to drive almost 30 minutes each way to get to practice? We have some fun moments, but it seems like a bit much at times. For me, I like when I get calls to fill in on bass for bands. They call me, I show up, play, and get paid. There are no rehearsals. We have a lot of fun playing together, and we sound pretty good! Could we sound a lot better if we rehearsed regularly? Sure! I like this quote from the previous post: "I was in a couple 'we gotta rehearse all the time' bands. Some of them needed to woodshed 25 hours a day (still wouldn't help . . ), and we didn't gig a lot, so 'the nerves' would set in while the leader was going thru his Rolodex of tunes, and he'd invariably call a lot we NEVER rehearsed. Brilliant . . . . In a way, it seemed like weaker players always wanted to rehearse a lot more: Confidence issues maybe, stage fright (which has never happened to me), who knows?" I play in 3 or 4 different bands right now. I enjoy the fact that, most of the time, my bandmates do a great job and they can count on me to fill in for them on short notice. I find that my band that rehearses regularly is the one that seems like the hardest work. Perhaps they take themselves too seriously (?). I have learned from my freelance bass playing to listen carefully to what other musicians do. From that experience, I think I've gained a reputation as someone people call when they need a bass player for a gig. I'm not knocking rehearsal at all, but I find that I would much rather be at home with my family after a long day of teaching, instead of rehearsing for some low-paying dive gig! Many of the musicians I play with only need me to say, "Let's play this song....it goes like this" and then we play it. They can also show me the changes to a song at the gig or give me a setlist, and I can do the gig. I am not a professional musician. Music has always been my main interest. I do play regularly at home, but my favorite time is when I am performing live for an audience. I feel blessed to be able to play music and connect with people. Anyway, there's my musings on the rehearsal thing! | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 869 Registered: 9-2004 |
If you can put on a show the crowd likes, you are ready... | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11737 Registered: 5-2002 |
Some thoughts off the top of my head. Here's a different way of looking at it. What is your expectation of the quality of performance of a band, or soloist, that you, and perhaps a spouse and/or friends, are paying money and taking the time to go see. Even if it's a local club; if you arrived early so that you could get a table close to the stage because you're there to see a performance; you're not there just to drink beer and watch sports on the big screen behind the bar while the band is playing. If it's a Friday night, and you and your spouse are driving into town for dinner with friends and then going to a venue specifically to see a band perform, what is your expectation of the quality of performance? I suspect the answer to this question will not be the same for everyone, and may, quite reasonably, vary widely. Personally, my expectation is probably fairly high; which is why I would like to get the overall quality of my own playing up significantly before I take it out of the rehearsal room. But for others, Friday night might be more about being with friends at a bar that also happens to have a band playing; and the quality of the music isn't the primary focus of the evening. The answer to the question might also vary in relation to the cost. If it's $10 to get in the door, or $15, or $20, does that change the expectation of the level of quality in the performance you're devoting your Friday evening to. Personally, I don't have enough natural talent to go out and play without a lot of preparation. I like that quote that Wolf posted above from Harry James: "If I do not practice one day, I can tell the difference. If I do not practice for two days, my band can tell the difference. However, if I do not practice for three days, everyone can tell the difference!" And that guy had tons of natural talent!  | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4132 Registered: 5-2009 |
Dave , I am glad that you can relate to that as I can as well in particular with brass instrument playing but also on bass guitar. Harry James really had amazing talent and awesome dedication to excellence and I have read stories that he was a nice fellow to work with and for. At a young age he was in charge of a large circus band and was playing and reading truly pyrotechnical selections of music. Later he joined the Benny Goodman band and after that lead his own band giving a few later famous young talents a break to success . Singer Frank Sinatra was one of the those and then later gave singer Helen Forrest a better gig. He also gave away several Gold Plated Selmer Paris trumpets that were made in France to some of his fellow trumpet playing band mates as well . What a swell boss ! | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 504 Registered: 6-2012 |
Hey all - thanks for the thoughtful replies! I figured this might be a topic that would generate a variety of insightful responses because, at one time or another we've all "been there". In this particular case, I think Joey nailed it when he wrote "...weaker players always seemed to want to rehearse a lot more: Confidence issues maybe, stage fright (which has never happened to me), who knows?" because it was the two least experienced players that were driving the "gotta be 100% perfect before we play out" bus. Also, Dave and Wolf made some good points about the expectations of the audience and the performer. I agree, if someone is paying a $10 - $20 cover charge to see a specific performance in a club, their expectation would probably be higher than if they are just sitting around in a bar where there happened to be live entertainment. I also aspire to the Harry James quote, but I temper that aspiration with a bit of reality similar to what Bill wrote: "For every 100 times that I know I screwed up, my band-mates catch 10 and the audience catches 1". To that end, I sometimes practice "screwing up" to see if I can successfully navigate out of it without derailing the song or anyone catching it. And, sometimes those "mistakes" can lead to something interesting. And - everyone will know you've screwed up if you make it more obvious by your facial expression or body language...so I also practice going on as though nothing happened. Bottom line - during a live performance, there will most likely be some mistakes. The mark of a true pro is expect them, prepare for them and for the band members to function as a team so the audience remains unaware that anything happened. IMO, the only way to really become comfortable with doing that is to play live. | ||
| tubeperson
Senior Member Username: tubeperson Post Number: 508 Registered: 5-2005 |
Herbie Hancock has told the story that while he was playing with Miles in a live performance (Miles Davis for you rockers that do not know who he is), that he played an awkward, incorrect chord. Miles gave him a look, then played notes that resolved the issue. Now that is grace under fire. There is a way to smooth out "bad notes" and make them sound like they fit in. I always keep that close to the vest when playing. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 11738 Registered: 5-2002 |
I hadn't heard that particular Miles story before (or perhaps I had, but just don't remember); but every thing I've read from musicians who played with him reflected the same type of extraordinary musicianship. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 2367 Registered: 11-2004 |
You know I have actually heard my gear play the wrong notes, maybe they are the right notes but in the wrong order LOL | ||
| jazzyvee
Senior Member Username: jazzyvee Post Number: 4490 Registered: 6-2002 |
In old saxophonist told me many years back, there are no wrong notes in jazz just better note choices. I'm still trying to work out what the better note choices are. :-) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4133 Registered: 5-2009 |
In much of Big band Jazz and variations that are also charted in staff notation will give you the correct intended note just like reading classical music. In truly improvisational jazz that is where you have more freedom , " Think John Coltrane , the great sax master ! I think he knew what the better notes were, He was also very studious and was a incredibly knowledgeable with scales. One of the musical reference books that he studied from was this ; " Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns" written by Nicolas Slonimsky. http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X Frank Zappa , Jaco Pastorius and many other brilliant folks also studied it ! I purchased my copy a few decades ago, and I am still trying to become brillant as well ! LOL , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Slonimsky Wolf | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 505 Registered: 6-2012 |
A guitar instructor once told me that a "wrong note" is only 1/2 step up or down from being the "right note". He suggested that I view "wrong notes" as "passing tones" and they could only be considered "wrong" if they were held for a long duration without resolution. Mastering those scales that Wolf mentioned above would probably come in handy for THAT! Also, when I was first learning how to play guitar and was hung up on "everything must be 100% perfect all the time", an older keyboard player I knew invited me to watch him perform with a fairly accomplished lounge act. He told me that he would make an obvious mistake that night - like playing Bbm7 instead of Cmaj7 - and that he would look right at me and smile when he did it. He did and then he repeated the same intentional error again during the next verse. When he spoke to me on break afterward, he asked me if anyone in the band or audience seemed to notice or if anyone said anything about it. Of course, the answer was no. His point was the song did not fall apart and the show went on as though nothing happened. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 6050 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hey, I NEVER play a wrong note ... but it's funny how sometimes the rest of the band can all play the same wrong note together while I play the right note all by myself! hehehehe Bill, tgo | ||
| gtrguy
Senior Member Username: gtrguy Post Number: 870 Registered: 9-2004 |
They only notice the singers... (sob) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 4135 Registered: 5-2009 |
Great singing is truly a gift , through training, practice or just natural talent ; a gift ! In this day and age in a live situation in particular because of studio pitch correction software and digital editing capabilities in the recording environment. I have had a few different requests a few different times with different artists for such manipulation of their tracks. It is possible for me to just do it for them but I always encourage them to do another take and play it correctly and my suggestions are often met with irritation form the artist. I have heard a few times that other engineer did it for me ! I would often like to tell them what is on my mind when I hear that, but I just smile back and grin and say , shall me try it again ? Rolling ____take 2 ! | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1864 Registered: 10-2006 |
Harry James? I'd always heard that attributed to Vladimir Horowitz (but 1 = self, 2 = critics, 3 = audience.) A bass player I'd worked with before called me to do sound for a new-wavish cover band in the mid-80s. This bandleader wanted perfection. Had put together a great PA, a (ahem) decent engineer, & a talented band, and rehearsed something like 6 hours, 5 days a week for almost a year (yes, I said a cover band) . When we finally played out, we were ready!!! About 4 months in, the bandleader (also an acoustic engineer "on the side") gets a job offer from JBL & moves to CA. Oops. Good call on the bail-out, David. Peter | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 1865 Registered: 10-2006 |
Harry James? I'd always heard that attributed to Vladimir Horowitz (but 1 = self, 2 = critics, 3 = audience.) A bass player I'd worked with before called me to do sound for a new-wavish cover band in the mid-80s. This bandleader wanted perfection. Had put together a great PA, a (ahem) decent engineer, & a talented band, and rehearsed something like 6 hours, 5 days a week for almost a year (yes, I said a cover band) . When we finally played out, we were ready!!! About 4 months in, the bandleader (also an acoustic engineer "on the side") gets a job offer from JBL & moves to CA. Oops. Good call on the bail-out, David. Peter | ||
| hankster
Senior Member Username: hankster Post Number: 408 Registered: 6-2004 |
depends on the purpose of the band. If it's a show band, or a clone band, or a big deal - touring, stadiums - of course you need more rehearsal. My favourites, though, are the bands where the gig is booked first, and the musicians and rehearsal, if any, come later. I love the spontaneity and the particular kind of focus that comes with playing live when you are reading the gig and anything - and I mean anything - might happen next. And it's so much fun to meet players for the first time at the gig, and hear them play, and be amazed at the miracle of music in the hands of real players coming together on the spot, with the audience watching it all happen - they can feel it too. | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 514 Registered: 6-2012 |
One of the projects that I continue to work with operates a lot like that - we intentionally do not rehearse material "to death" so that it remains fresh and edgy because of the excitement / energy generated by "can we pull this one off - ?" And our shows frequently feature audience requests. The basic rule being, if one guy knows it real well, the others can usually support him well enough to put the song across. Footnote to the original post that started this thread: the drummer revealed to me in a recent email that he has been with this (as he put it) "ever-changing group" for 18 MONTHS and they have not played a single gig. For some reason, this didn't seem to bother him, even though he's paying to rehearse week after week... Note to self: ask to see the band's calendar prior to auditioning for future projects...don't take their word that "hey man, we'll have jobs, no problem. I could book us right now". | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1330 Registered: 7-2003 |
Practice is great and can be extremely important to producing the result you want. However, in my experience, different musicians have varying perspectives on how their band sounds to them, as well as assumptions and preferences that determine whether they like what they hear. I have played for years (off and on) with a guitarist who's reasonably diligent at learning our tunes, but his goal is to sound identical to the original artist's recorded version. No amount of discussion, negotiation or explanation of differing perspectives seems to make a dent in his belief that anything except a virtual reenactment of something produced in the studio, generally years ago sounds "right". This is complicated by a serious lack of understanding about how studio recordings are mixed. It's taken me a long time to get over needing him to like what he hears in rehearsal -- because he usually is happy with the results when we play out. Hard to understand how all that works for him, but if we waited till he was pleased with our rehearsal sound -- well, it'd never happen. So many things don't happen till a band plays in a live setting. Everything sounds different (a little, or more likely a lot). For me, things I've played in rehearsal have produce different results on stage than in the rehearsal room. Generally, I find live performance begs for a bit of "overacting" to avoid having the lovely subtleties get lost in the mix. Something like what stage actors say about their craft. Often it's far easier to hear the bigger interactions and flow of the music live. I really enjoy hearing the reactions when less-experienced musicians take their stuff out in public the first few times. That's where the rubber hits the road. Rehearsal's fine, but it's a poor representation of what a band actually does and can do. (Message edited by bassman10096 on May 22, 2015) | ||
| 5a_quilt_top
Senior Member Username: 5a_quilt_top Post Number: 525 Registered: 6-2012 |
THANK YOU and a big, emphatic +1 to THAT. BTW: your guitarist sounds like a clone of the guy in the project I just left - 'cept I never got to play live with him. And, in case anyone's wondering, I used to have a lot of "that guy" in me until I started playing live on a regular basis. I obsessed over trying to copy various guitar tones (mainly Holdsworth, May, EVH, Boston, Gary Moore and Santana) until I realized that most of it really is in the fingers, a lot of it is studio techniques and some of it is just happy accidents or even "mistakes". Bottom line: I spent so much time trying to sound like someone else that I neglected to find my own sound. But it wasn't a total waste of time because I became very familiar with a wide variety of guitars, basses, amps and FX and eventually I found the recipe that works for me. It just took longer than it probably should have. Then I discovered Alembic a few years ago and that completely "upset the apple cart". It's now easier than ever to sound like "me" because there is virtually nowhere to hide with these instruments. Completely changed my perspective. But, as they say, "better late than never". |
