| Author | Message | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 223 Registered: 7-2004 |
As I know there are a few club members who frequent the LMA, I thought I'd mention that the vast collection of Grateful Dead Soundboard recordings have been removed. I did not see the original announcement, but the word is that the Dead's catalog of live recordings will be made available on a pay-download-burn basis soon. There are still many Grateful Dead audience recordings available on the archive, and SBDs can still currently be obtained on the trading sites. Too bad - it was a very nice, convenient collection of great sounding live recordings. Tom | ||
| flaxattack
Senior Member Username: flaxattack Post Number: 737 Registered: 4-2004 |
heres a free one tom http://bt.etree.org | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 225 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yes - it's back to trading, hunting and pecking - snagging what torrents are available at any given time. gdlive.com and dimeadozen.org also have Grateful Dead Soundboards. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1302 Registered: 9-2003 |
That stinks! Now that I finally got an IPOD, they take the freebies away, LOL! Oh well, all good things must come to an end. It was nice to be able to enjoy a stream at work from a show I attended as a teen. | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 227 Registered: 7-2004 |
Kevin - you need a BitTorrent client. Here's a good free one for just about any common OS: http://azureus.sourceforge.net/ Then check this out - it should answer any questions you have. http://www.bittorrent.com/FAQ.html TZ | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 229 Registered: 7-2004 |
Oops - wrong thread. That's what I get for reading multiple threads at the same time. If the above post seems out of context it's because it was supposed to be posted here - http://alembic.com/club/messages/449/22684.html?1133196591 sorry - tz | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2652 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tom; these two threads seem to be intertwined! | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 231 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yeah, you're right Dave. =) That seems to happen from time to time around here. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1310 Registered: 9-2003 |
Thanks, Tom. I'll give 'er a try. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2657 Registered: 5-2002 |
There is an article in today's New York Times about the removal from the archive. Apparently, audience tapes can no longer be downloaded as well, but are available for streaming. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1318 Registered: 9-2003 |
Thanks, Dave. Interesting reading. Anyone who thinks the Dead isn't big business hasn't shopped at their online official store, LOL! Personally, like Gans stated in the article, it's too little too late to cork the flow of this material. The LAMA was a response to the difficulties Deadheads had in trading material. Someone else will find a way to disseminate this material no matter how hard McNally tries to stem the flow. Personally, I think it's ridiculous! They previously allowed unlimited use of any of the stuff until it was formally released by the Dead. Now, even that's not good enough...they're getting greedy now! | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1319 Registered: 9-2003 |
Anybody here remember what happened when Harley tried to copyright the sound of the venerable pushrod, aircooled, single-crankpin 45 degree V-Twin? They spent years and millions of dollars and tied up the court system for nothing...you can't copyright a sound! Same thing when they tried to sue or stop EVERY use of HD trademarks like H-D or HOG. While no one disputes the ownership rights to their "property", the reason H-D is the third most recognized brand-name in the world is because it's out there everywhere. Going after every mom and pop business because they used the trademarked name(s)in someway WITHOUT paying a royality may be their right, but it ain't good for public relations! And that isn't, ultimately, good for business! How greedy do you want to be? The law of diminishing returns works here as well...how much do you wanna spend to protect your intellectual rights? You can clearly end-up spending more than you're protecting. Harley is a prime example of that. Relax GD, Inc! You can make freighters full of money and still not p*ss on the Deadheads that are the money lifeline that has supported the Dead juggernaut all these some odd 40yrs and counting! It's amazing, given the Bohemian beginnings, but everyone's gotta eat and the Corporation that is now the Grateful Dead has clearly taken on a life of it's own outside of the band and the music! (Message edited by kmh364 on November 30, 2005) | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 232 Registered: 7-2004 |
John Barlow and Phil have made public statements regarding this matter: Barlow - You have no idea how sad I am about this. I fought it hammer and tong, but the drummers had inoperable bricks in their head about it. What's worse is that they now want to remove all Dead music from the Web. They might as easily put a teaspoon of food coloring in a swimming pool and then tell the pool owner to get it back to them. It's like finding out that your brother is a child molester. And then, worse, having everyone then assume that you're a child molester too. I've been called a hypocrite in three languages already. How magnificently counter-productive of them. It's as if the goose who laid the golden egg had decided to commit suicide so that he could get more golden eggs. This is just the beginning of the backlash, I promise you. This is worse than the RIAA suing their customers. Phil - It was brought to my attention that all of the Grateful Dead shows were taken down from Archive.org right before Thanksgiving. I was not part of this decision making process and was not notified that the shows were to be pulled. I do feel that the music is the Grateful Dead's legacy and I hope that one way or another all of it is available for those who want it . I have enjoyed using Archive.org and found it invaluable during the writing of my book. I found myself being pulled back in time listening to old Grateful Dead shows while giggling with glee or feeling that ache in my heart listening to Jerry's poetic guitar and sweet voice. We are musicians not businessmen and have made good and bad decisions on our journey. We do love and care about our community as you helped us make the music. We could not have made this kind of music without you as you allowed us to play "without a net". Your love, trust and patience made it possible for us to try again the next show when we couldn't get that magic carpet off the ground. Your concerns have been heard and I am sure are being respectfully addressed. - Phil I wonder who is calling the shots. ???? TZ | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2662 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Tom!!! These statements add significantly to the story. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1321 Registered: 9-2003 |
Well, remember what happened to Metallica after the Lars Ullrich anti-Napster diatribe. You p*ss off the fans, and you lose! I don't think they ever fully recovered from the anti-Metallica backlash that resulted from their apparent greed. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1322 Registered: 9-2003 |
FYI, here's the spiel as far as the petition against this new Dead practice as outlined in today's NY Times article: Dear Friends, I have just read and signed the online petition: "Grateful Dead Merchandising Boycott" hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition service, at: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/gdm/ I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might agree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and consider signing yourself. Best wishes, Kevin M. Hogan | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2668 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's the text from the link Kevin cited; there are at the moment 4,360 signatures. __________________________ Dear Grateful Dead Merchandising, For years, we have supported the Grateful Dead unquestioned. We have purchased countless albums, releases, concert tickets, merchandise, and more. A large percentage of our income has gone straight from our bank accounts, into yours. I assure you, there are many more like us. You have a core group of fans that are dedicated to the music, and to the band. We followed the band for years, jumped at every release, and anxiously awaited new releases. When Jerry passed a decade ago, we trusted you would continue to make the right decisions. You laid your rules on the line, and as fans we followed them. As traders, we never copied a released GD album. When you said not to trade released soundboards, we understood. It is our understanding that in November 2005, the internet archive(archive.org) was asked to remove all Grateful Dead soundboard concerts from their site. The internet archive has been a resource that is important to all of us. We use it to experience the Grateful Dead’s growth and transition throughout the years. Between the music, and interviews in the archive we are able to experience the Grateful Dead fully. This technology has opened doors to introduce new fans to the real Grateful Dead. It has allowed us to experience different eras of the Grateful Dead, and made us more anxious to purchase releases as they came out. Now it appears doing the right thing for the fans, has given way to greed. So here is our resolution. You want to change the rules as you go along, so will we. We don’t care anymore; We’ve lost all respect for this organization. Between the utter disgust of your decisions with Jerry’s guitars, and now taking away our access to the music we care about most, we refuse to support any aspect of GDM until we see change. No more CD’s, no more tickets, no more merchandise. We ask all deadheads to join us in this protest. GDM, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Have you forgotten all you have taught us? If you plant ice Your gonna harvest wind Sincerely, The Undersigned | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 670 Registered: 6-2002 |
Last time I was in Washington DC - perhaps November 2003 - I went to the museum where they do music - can't remember the official name, part of the Smithsonian. They had cupboards full of GD merchandise in the museum shop, just as if it were Donald Duck or Mickey Mouse or Winnie the Pooh or what have you. And really less attractive than any of the Walt Disney offerings you find in airport shops, to be honest - I have a 5-year old son, so I try to keep a keen eye for that type of thing - it may be trash, but you have quality trash, you have fun trash, and you have disposable trash. Trash based on hippie culture must be the lowest form I've encountered yet. As a humble fan of Charles Ives, I was either severely troubled or enormously relieved - don't care to remember which - at not finding any of his musical legacy for sale at the Smithsonian. Now let's resume our regular scheduled broadcast - | ||
| valvil
Moderator Username: valvil Post Number: 796 Registered: 7-2002 |
A personal post. I'd like to point out that defending your property is NOT greed. Personally I'm not a fan of either the Dead (yep, amazing but true, an Alembic employee who's not a Deadhead) or Metallica, but I wholeheartedly support their efforts to protect their intellectual property. To me the excuse that they have already made a ton of money is totally irrelevant. You buy a cd and everyone complains about the cost. But people listen to the music they buy for along time, if not their entire life. So 1$ for a song that you can listen to for the rest of your life is too much? I guess people don't place much value on the work of their so-called-heroes; what is this, "I love what you do as long as it's free"?. The other point that most people seem to miss is that it's not just the band members who rely on royalty income, but also studio musicians, producers, engineers, soundmen, graphic artists, composers, arrangers, publishers and so on. When you pirate, you steal from all of them. There's always this assumption among the general public that if you got a record out you must be making a ton of money and most times that just not true. On average only 1 in 100 releases makes any sort of money. The Dead always did try to promote music exchanges among fans while it was still an 'analog' world. I'd guess that in that context it made sense, but in the digital world it's too much, it's like going from giving a few freebies to giving away half the store. Plus it's not like the material is suddenly unavailable; you can still listen to it, but if you want to keep it you gotta pay for it, I don't think it's unfair. And those who want to "keep up with the Dead musical development" can still do so. The Dead acually lost money for ages, and if it weren't for the kindness of a few friends who supported them through the lean times they wouldn't have lasted; they never sold all that many albums, and on the road you are paid a fee for each show, and hopefully it will cover your costs, but it's the venue that makes the big bucks. Just about anyone who receives royalty checks will tell you how much they have shrunk in recent years due to piracy. The majority of these folks are not the superstars we all know, and this how they pay their bills. As for greed, how about the greed of wanting something for nothing? Valentino | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 235 Registered: 7-2004 |
Valentino, I agree with you regarding the intellectual property of artists and placing enough value on their work to buy it. I also agree with your last observation about greed. I think the Metallica situation and that currently involving the Grateful Dead are very different. I read a lot of the posts on the LMA bulletin board over the past week, and a lot of it made me uncomfortable to call myself a Deadhead. There was a mean-spirited tone of spoiled selfishness in some of the posts not characteristic of the Deadhead community that I have known. But, all this emotional noise is not about piracy. The Grateful Dead have traveled a very different road to musical success than the standard industry approach, which you seem to be describing in your message. As I'm sure you know, they have, from very early on, encouraged the recording and sharing of their performances - I'm not sure it had anything to do with the medium (analogue, digital, spiritual, etc.) - as long as this sharing was not done for any financial gain. The privilege of recording at the shows, and indeed, the soundboard patches were given freely by the Dead, not pirated in a clandestine or unethical way. This was and is, in my estimation, a very forward-thinking way to develop a fan base and "spread your music throughout the land." Not to mention just Good Karma. And, among many other factors, not the least of which is the Dead's enormous talent, this philosophy contributed to their success. It is my sense (and I have no data to back this up) that Deadheads have respected the wishes of the Grateful Dead philosophy, by not selling any of the recorded live music, and also by supporting the band when they did release commercial products, be it music, videos, and the endless stream of “trash based on hippie culture” mentioned in another post above. The fans also filled sold-out stadiums for many years of the band’s touring. This has been a kind of unspoken “arrangement” between the Dead and their fans for many, many years. One gets a sense of this even in the comments of Phil and Barlow above. So, it is for this reason I don’t believe all this noise is about piracy. Furthermore, I believe that if the Grateful Dead wish to change or modify their policies with respect to the sharing of their music, they have every right to do so. After all, times and technologies have changed – I’m sure no one imagined this particular internet scenario forty (or even ten) years ago. In the end, the power of their music will likely live on for a long, long time. It was a nice arrangement while it lasted, and I for one, will continue to listen to and enjoy the music of the Grateful Dead. Tom (Message edited by tom_z on November 30, 2005) | ||
| crgaston
New Username: crgaston Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2005 |
On the Grateful Dead website is an announcement that the audience recordings will be available for download again and the soundboards will be available for streaming, implemented over the next few days. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1341 Registered: 9-2003 |
Wow, this started a bunch of feathers flying, LOL! For the record, I don't condone piracy. As Tom stated, the point of the LAMA was to make available the same material that had been floating in the public domain for years in a non-degrading digital format with the permission of the Dead's organization. The intent was always for personal use. I don't condone the resale of this material nor have I ever done it. I don't even trade to others, nor do I solicit anything from anyone. I just want access to it like it's always been for my use only. As far as wanting something for nothing, I already own most of the Dick's Picks that contain this material. If you could see my record, tape and CD collection, my wardrobe, book collection, etc., as well as my credit card bills from the Dead's store, they make (have made) quite a nice living off of me personally, LOL! I'd like to stream the stuff at work and maybe take some of it with me on my new iPod without having to spend hours uploading my cd's and 'ripping' them into MP-3's in order to download them to the player. The point of all this is that the Dead allowed taping and PERSONAL use of their intellectual property, nee' unofficial concert recordings, REGARDLESS of media type (i.e, analogue, digital, tape, CD, MP-3, whatever), and now they've renegged. The agreement of GD, Inc. with LAMA, as posted conspicuously there, was to allow unrestricted personal usage of non-copyrighted stuff UNTIL it was commercially released by them. they've apparently decided that this no longer suits them. I've personally done my part to support the Dead and their members in any way possible, whether via concert tickets, records, merchandise, etc., over the past 28 plus years. The availability of free personal use concert material has always been what set the Dead apart from all others as a "Thank You" to all the fans who have made their 40-plus year existence possible. Taking it away now smacks of greed IMHO. Just my $0.02 | ||
| laytonco
Junior Username: laytonco Post Number: 32 Registered: 3-2005 |
Has anyone seen Phil's reponse to all of the on www.phillesh.net? Apparently he was unaware of this recent event and none too happy with it! I think all of us want the boys to do well financially. But it was a major change after the fact. All in all, it probably should have been handled more openly and perhaps more slowly...over time. Based on the 177,000 registered members of archive.org, there's a lot of us out there, and if you "shock" us all at once, well, you get this kind of response. But, all's well. And I'll be in front of Mr Weir tomorrow night at the Fillmore in Denver having the time of my life!!!!! Woohoo! Cowboy Fancy is back out BTW. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2674 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hi Gil; Phil's response is shown above in Tom's post dated November 30 - 7:35 am. Have fun tomorrow night! | ||
| laytonco
Junior Username: laytonco Post Number: 33 Registered: 3-2005 |
...I can see clearly now the rain is gone....Thanks Dave! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2675 Registered: 5-2002 |
It's a long thread! <g> | ||
| tom_z
Advanced Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 238 Registered: 7-2004 |
Really Gil, Bobby's pulled out the Ibanez? I always loved that guitar. I hope he cracks it out it next week when Ratdog plays here in Vegas. =) Tom | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 579 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not long ago I was chatting with my A-list guitarist friend from Nashville about the whole intellectual property thing in terms of file-sharing and such. He says that it is changing the industry in ways that are not good for the future of studio musicians. He is seeing this already in tangible ways, though he didn't elaborate much other than to say that he is worried about the industry at the musician level and whether or not people will be able to make careers out of studio playing in the future. Although the Dead recordings are live, this still seemed relevant to the thread.. John | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1354 Registered: 9-2003 |
Just an observation: When CD's came out in '84, they cost about $8-$9 to make and were $12.99-$13.99MSRP. Now they cost PENNIES to make, and they list for $16.99-$18.99! The artist (if he's lucky) gets a few bucks from that, a portion is for advertising, distribution, packaging and delivery, and the vast majority is for record company PROFIT. Downloads are on the rise because consumers are notably unwilling to shell out $18 for one decent song and the rest filler, when they can download the song legally for $1-$3, or steal it on an illegal site. Personally, I'd be willing to buy a lot more CD's if it weren't for the ridiculous profit margin the record companies are demanding that have driven the price of CD's through the roof. Their excuse is that piracy is killing their sales, hence the high CD retail prices. Personally, I think their greed is what's killing their sales, IMHO. Just my $0.02. I now return you to our regularly scheduled rant, LOL! | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 580 Registered: 10-2003 |
What's killing the recording industry is the near-complete lack of innovation. When groups like King Crimson and YES have a hard time keeping a label while still producing excellent new music, and Ashley Simpson has a contract to lip-sync and dance a crappy jig, you know things are messed-up. Perky breasts do not listenable music make. edited to add: I don't think downloading is nearly as significant a factor as my friend does, although I'm certain it does have an impact.. John (Message edited by 811952 on December 02, 2005) | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1356 Registered: 9-2003 |
Absolutely! Although perky breasts have nothing to do with good music, they're great no matter what! LOL! | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 1375 Registered: 9-2003 |
BTW, as somebody who buys a lot of DVD's, they are CONSIDERABLY cheaper than CD's to buy, in most cases. Why is that? It CAN'T possibly cost less to make a DVD than a CD, production-wise and manufacturing-wise, not to mention the packaging costs more...especially as compared to cardboard CD case (DON'T get me started on that one, LOL!). Is that because it's harder to pirate DVD's? NOT! It just takes more time and more memory to rip-off DVD's as there is much more file size there. We're talking greed here....record company greed, nothing more! |
