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lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 1228
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 8:46 am:   Edit Post

I just wanted to wish everyone a happy 420! I'm off to the annual NORML conference in San Francisco for the next 3 days. Tommy Chong is the speaker at the luncheon on Friday. Big fun!

Bill, tgo
crgaston
Intermediate Member
Username: crgaston

Post Number: 182
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 9:06 am:   Edit Post

I wish all my high school students weren't celebrating it while we're preparing for the state's End of Course Tests!

Have fun at the conference!
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3664
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post

Bill; I see you're on the panel discussing "Challenges Facing Doctors and Patients". Hope you have a productive and fun conference!
george_wright
Member
Username: george_wright

Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   Edit Post

I feel a certain bond with Charles over this (I'm a college prof).

Today I started each class by asking what the date was. When the the class obliged with "420," I logged on to facebook.com and did a group-search for "420." We then had a chance to see all the students who had joined the pro-weed groups.

I tried to make the point that while smoking weed is neither immoral nor unethical, it is definitely illegal (at least until Bill stops spending so much time playing guitar and changes the world :-)!). Students don't need the baggage of explaining away their facebook antics to school administrators or potential employers.

BTW, those of you with college-age kids ought to ask 'em about their facebook (or myspace) pages. Their reactions may be interesting :-).

This past Easter, we hosted the usual extended family gathering. My kids and the local nieces and nephews had fun facebooking the non-local nieces and nephews.
hydrargyrum
Advanced Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 205
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 2:26 pm:   Edit Post

Seems like every day there is a new facebook scandal. It is surprising what some people deem acceptable for public display.
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3666
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 2:37 pm:   Edit Post

What I find interesting about myspace.com is who owns it.
olieoliver
Advanced Member
Username: olieoliver

Post Number: 250
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 2:42 pm:   Edit Post

I am not saying it's either right or wrong. I personally think its the individuals decision.
I don't indulge but I also don't judge others if they do, it's their bussiness. I do however have a problem with those that light up (anything, cigerettes, weed...)at concerts, this affects MY HEALTH. With that being said, IMHO if it's illegal it's immoral. Websters defines "moral" as ;conforming to a standard of right behavior. If you are breaking the law you are NOT conforming to a standard of right behavior.
pas
Member
Username: pas

Post Number: 76
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:09 pm:   Edit Post

On the one hand you say "I also don't judge others if they do". On the other hand you say "if it's illegal, it's immoral."

Which is it?
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3667
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:19 pm:   Edit Post

Olie;

I'm not sure I understand what you just said.

Apparently you believe that all laws, no matter what town, city, county, state or country they are established in, are moral.

So that would mean that stoning someone to death for having an affair is moral just so long as it happens to be the law in that particular area.

Is this what you were saying?
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3668
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:22 pm:   Edit Post

Reflecting further:

Because Rosa Parks refused to sit at the back of the bus, she was an immoral person?
tom_z
Advanced Member
Username: tom_z

Post Number: 356
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:30 pm:   Edit Post

Hehe - Fun coincidence - I happened to open this thread and playing in the background was Yonder Mountain String Band playing "Two Hits and the Joint Turned Brown."
And this one's a classic too. Make sure you check out the last half of this one - really nice breakdown.

Just a little something for the bluegrass and "othergrass" lovers out there. =)

Tom
tom_z
Advanced Member
Username: tom_z

Post Number: 357
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:36 pm:   Edit Post

Oops - this thread took on a bit of a different tone while I was in what turned out to be the rather long process of posting.

Oh well - I hope singing about something illegal isn't immoral.
crgaston
Intermediate Member
Username: crgaston

Post Number: 183
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:38 pm:   Edit Post

I imagine that if all marijuana users spent half the time, money, and effort on changing the laws that they do on obtaining and using it, it WOULD be legal. Bill, that's gotta be something you think about...
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3669
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:43 pm:   Edit Post

LOL! Tom, that happens to me a lot; sit around forever composing a post, and in the meantime the thread has picked up several more posts.

Nice mandolin playing on those tunes by the way! Thanks!
lidon2001
Intermediate Member
Username: lidon2001

Post Number: 134
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 3:47 pm:   Edit Post

I think that depends who's listening Tom. And since I've now got a Skylark too, sing away! I might join in some off key harmony...

T
tom_z
Advanced Member
Username: tom_z

Post Number: 358
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 4:30 pm:   Edit Post

Heh - Dave I started that reply a few hours ago on my laptop, then got involved with work issues - by the time I came back Bill's celebratory post got kind of heavy. Glad you like the tunes.

Two Skylarks in some off key harmony? Mark me down, Tom. =)

TZ
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3672
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 4:42 pm:   Edit Post

Tom; sorry about that. I did get kinda "heavy" there, didn't I!

I think that's the first time I've heard the Yonder Mountain String Band; good band! In addition to the mandolin, there was some nice flat-picking guitar going on too!
olieoliver
Advanced Member
Username: olieoliver

Post Number: 251
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 5:20 pm:   Edit Post

I never said that I agree with the law about MJ being illegal, in fact I said it should be up to the individual. Let me ask you this, you imply that since a person thinks its ok to smoke POT that even though its against the law to do so, its OK. So then if a person thinks its ok to come into your house take your guitar and sell it, even though its against the law, since he thinks its ok, it is. Jeffrey Dahmer thinks its ok to molest, kill and then eat people even though the law says otherwise.
My point is don't break the law, change it if you think it's wrong. I agree with Charles, instead of waisting time and money to do it illegally put forth your best effort to change the laws on it.
So to put it in plain english, I agree with your right to do what pleases you, so long as it doesn't adversely affect anyone else.
Cigarrette smoke causes many, many illnesses, pot kills brains cells, and can cause lung cancer ( don't beleive the old tale that it doesn't). So go ahead kill your self or lower your I.Q. just don't take me on the trip with you! In other words, keep out of public places.
richbass939
Senior Member
Username: richbass939

Post Number: 617
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   Edit Post

Okay, I'll lay my ignorance out in front of the club for the umpteenth time. What is a facebook?
Rich
Edit: More ignorance; what is the significance of 4-20?

(Message edited by richbass939 on April 20, 2006)
tom_z
Advanced Member
Username: tom_z

Post Number: 359
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 6:15 pm:   Edit Post

No apology necessary, Dave. I think it's interesting to watch how threads evolve. I just felt like my post containing a couple if irreverent "grass" tunes might have come off as a bit trite.

For what it's worth, sometimes it takes a little civil disobedience to get the legislative juggernaut rolling in a new direction. I believe Dave mentioned Rosa Parks.

Peace,
Tom
richbass939
Senior Member
Username: richbass939

Post Number: 618
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 6:36 pm:   Edit Post

I normally avoid the political discussions on the club. However, comparing smoking pot with stealing something or with Dahmer killing people is too much of a stretch to ignore. If people smoking pot don't step on my or someone else's toes I figure that it is their business. If they steal something or kill someone then it is another story. If they blow smoke (from anything they are burning) in my face then they are infringing on my rights. If they are just doing something to their own bodies then that is their business. I wouldn't want to see the authorities go after someone smoking pot in his/her living room any more than I would want to see them yank the supersize fries away from someone in McDonalds. I'm not going to venture a guess about which has a greater effect on the body.
I'm basically a law abiding kind of guy, but don't take that to mean that I feel all laws are right and just. I certainly am not judging those who don't affect anybody but themselves with their actions.
Rich
darkstar01
Junior
Username: darkstar01

Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 6:42 pm:   Edit Post

Wow... a 420 thread.. that goes from pot... to facebook.. to civil rights.. to yonder mountain. i like it. we should just start a 'Random String of Conscience' thread. for the record, 420 is always a good excuse to be in touch with old friends (that you may want to ignore otherwise), and if you don't like it... just say it's because 4/20 is also Hitler's birthday, and we'll all be happy!
Austin
oh yeah, yonder mountain is pretty awesome, too. i've seen them a few times...what gets me is how they down a mason jar of moonshine every set.
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3673
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 6:57 pm:   Edit Post

Olie;

Forgive my blunt reaction. I was reacting entirely to your statement that "if it's illegal it's immoral".

In the news recently there was a story about a man in Afghanistan who at some point in his life had converted from Islam to Christianity. In Afghanistan it is against the law to do that. Now this person didn't really stand a chance of changing the law; in fact the punishment for breaking that law was death and apparently most people there felt that he should have been punished to the full extent of the law. This particular person wasn't intending to hurt anyone else by breaking the law; in fact he tried to keep his law-breaking from being publicly known, but he was turned in by a relative. In your view, since he was breaking the law, he was acting immorally when he converted to Christianity. But I would imagine that in his view, he converted because he thought by doing so he might lead a more moral life. So I guess this just suggests that one person's immorality is another person's morality.

Now to answer your question directly. You appear to think that I think it's ok for people to break laws whenever they want. I don't. Your statements suggest that you think all laws are just and moral. They are not.

There are all kinds of reasons why laws are enacted. Many of these reasons have nothing to do with morality. Some laws are enacted because they help solve problems. For instance, in New York, there are streets where you park on one side of the street on some days and on the other side of the street on other days. If you forget which day it is and park on the wrong side, it doesn't make you immoral, it means you forgot which day it was.

Some laws are so confusing people don't know when or if they are breaking the law. The tax code is an example. I would imagine there are people that you know well that you think are moral people but who probably did not file an accurate use tax return this past year.

Another interesting thing about the federal tax code is that some district courts have ruled that certain actions are legal under the tax code while other district courts have ruled that those same actions are illegal. Does that mean that some people are immoral and others moral when they take the same actions?

Then there is the case where one law making authority makes an action legal and another makes it illegal. Is a person who breaks that law immoral even though his actions are legal?

Some laws are based on a society's ideas of morality. In the US, the vast majority of the people think it is immoral to murder people. These people would think this way even if there was not a law against murder. The fact that there is a law against murder isn't what makes murder immoral.

So, do I think it is ok for Jeffrey Dahmer to kill people? No I do not. But the reason I think it is not ok is not because it is against the law. A person's morality, what a person thinks is right and wrong, what a person feels in their heart, is not dictated by laws.

Many people believe that capital punishment is immoral. And yet, in the US it is legal. The law doesn't make it moral; it just makes it the law.

History is full of examples where people disobeyed laws because the laws were unjust and immoral. The US was founded by people who broke a lot of the King's laws. The fact that the founding fathers chose to break those laws doesn't necessarily make the founding fathers immoral.

When Rosa Parks refused to sit at the back of the bus she wasn't acting immorally; some would say that she was acting morally in standing up to an unjust and immoral law. Sometimes blindly following unjust laws can itself be seen as immoral.

There are lots of moral reasons for breaking laws.

Burning draft cards to protest the Viet Nam war.

Prescribing medical marijuana to a suffering patient.

Importing prescription drugs from Canada.

Helping slaves escape a cruel plantation owner.

Teaching women to read in Afghanistan under Taliban rule.

To me, your statement, that "if it's illegal it's immoral", doesn't seem to make sense. This is what I was reacting to. When you look at the history of civilizations, when you look at all the cruel, unjust and immoral laws that governments have enacted throughout history, when you look at the suffering that laws have caused to humans throughout history, it just doesn't make sense to equate laws with morality. Morality seems to have something to do with your heart, how you treat people; morality seems to be about opening your heart and treating everyone you meet with compassion. Just because a dictator, king, or congress makes a law, doesn't mean it's immoral to break that law.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that perhaps when you said "if it's illegal it's immoral" that perhaps that's not exactly what you meant to say.
olieoliver
Advanced Member
Username: olieoliver

Post Number: 252
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 7:01 pm:   Edit Post

Rich
My first paragraph was too extreme, I was by no means trying to compare smoking pot to stealing, murder.. etc.

I also stated in the post, " So to put it in plain english, I agree with your right to do what pleases you, so long as it doesn't adversely affect anyone else. "

And Tom I agree with the civil disobedience part. But Rosa made a non- violent public stand in a very public place, not in her living room or High School Bathroom.

Anyway I do respect and value every one heres opinion and right to voice such an opinion.

PEACE, ( Good word man)
Olie
olieoliver
Advanced Member
Username: olieoliver

Post Number: 253
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 7:20 pm:   Edit Post

Dave, no apology needed.

And if I have offended anyone please forgive me. When I quoted Websters by saying "moral" as ;conforming to a standard of right behavior" I guess the question is who's standard. I wasn't trying to say that I believe anything illegal is immoral just that the definition seemed to imply that. But after further thought I retract that statement. Moral is I guess dependant upon whos standard you follow.

I will repeat I DO NOT AGREE with MJ being illegal. I don't use it and you are not harmimg anyone else by doing so as long as you don't subject me to it.

And the man in Afgan. has found a greater power than any islamic idol or a better high than any drug.
tom_z
Advanced Member
Username: tom_z

Post Number: 360
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 7:51 pm:   Edit Post

--quote: "And Tom I agree with the civil disobedience part. But Rosa made a non- violent public stand in a very public place, not in her living room or High School Bathroom." --

I believe that for many folks, this is the whole point of "4/20," "Hash Wednesday," or any other public demonstration of civil disobedience in support of marijuana law reform.

If anyone makes a post about banging beer bottles we'll be pretty close to having a full-fledged Alembic thread. Well - Pat's 7-string is going to ship very soon. We can get ready to start banging away. =D

Peace,
Tom
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 742
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 8:04 pm:   Edit Post

I began to approach drugs and alcohol from a practical standpoint. And I include cigarettes in this, as it's unfortunately my drug of choice.

I've been around music and musicians and tours and music stores and beer joints and hotel clubs and on and on for almost 30 years now.

I've often said if I could just find that ONE person who truly played better loaded, really was cooler-faster-sexier-better-hipper et al, I'd have almost made a deal with the Devil to be told the secret, the menu, whatever, for how he did it.

As I speak, I'm still looking for that 'just one'. Unfortunately, instead I know lots of buried OD'd friends, others in rehab for the nth time, another finally adjusting to his liver transplant, divorces, wrecks, just lots of misery and tragedy. And this is just in the circle of club players I know personally. Expand it out to your list of favorite famous players, from Charlie Parker and Hank Williams, thru Elvis and Hendrix and Garcia and on and on and on.

Nobody put guns to their heads. But all this carnage does add up to a lifestyle in hell that has NOTHING to recommend it TO ME, if you consider all these results strictly from a practical standpoint, aside from moralities and legalities and the gray area between the two. But I'm the only one I can honestly speak for.

I also wonder why artists seem to think it goes with the territory. How cool would it be to shell out $600 to TicketMaster, then your favorite artist shows up too whacked to play? Would you go back to a mechanic who was drunk every time you took you car in? Would you get a root canal from a dentist that 'went on break' after the crown job before you and did a beer and a joint?

Life is hard and short in this brutal world. I just hate to see people make it even shorter and harder in a lifestyle that always adds up to a bad result. I can't see anything in it that tells me I would have any different result, so for me, I'll pass.

J o e y
the_8_string_king
Intermediate Member
Username: the_8_string_king

Post Number: 146
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 9:23 pm:   Edit Post

I feel I must respond to Oliver's statements. First, I credit him with retracting his statement. And I think Dave made some really great points in his presentation -as well as other people.

But I think the real point, while touched on a little was not identified and articulated.

There is a thing called "moral law"; and there is a thing called "written law." These two things are not NECESSARILY the same (though they OUGHT to be).

Moral law is that which is objectively demonstratable... that which can be objectively demonstated to be a precondition/requirement of civilization/peaceful social coexistance.

Basically, it amounts to the institutionalization of the "Golden Rule." If one accepts the premise that it is preferable to live and be happy over dying and being unhappy, then the FREEDOM -the RIGHT to preserve and enjoy one's life free of interference from others (and their RIGHT to preserve and enjoy their lives without interference from YOU- becomes the requirement of peaceful coexistence.

Moral law is NOT subjective; it is NOT ideological. It is what wins by default.

You see, many laws ARE ideological laws. Laws aimed at prohibiting marijuana are ideological laws. The purpose of the law is to impose the ideology of some on all... and to punish those who do not comply with the official ideology.

This is wrong. First of all, it is wrong because ANY ideological laws are wrong in principal. The PURPOSE of law -the ONLY legitimate purpose of law- is to protect peoples right(s)... their right(s) to preserve and enjoy their lives free of interference from others so long as they do the same... amoung other things TO BE PROTECTED FROM ideological laws.

This is an important point. One of the key purposes of law is supposed to be to protect you from bad laws... from ideological laws.

Laws are not ends in themselves. The concept of law AND ITS CORROLARY concept GOVERNMENT have value TO THE EXTENT they fulfill their purpose.

The purpose -the ONLY legitimate purpose- of law/government is to protect people rights. The ONLY way to do this is to implement objective... MORAL... law. Meaning the institutionalization of the Golden Rule, meaning, necessarily and by implication, that all "ideological laws" are null and void. There is no rational/moral basis for them, and they are inconsistent with the purpose of government, and inconsistent with the requirements of peaceful co-existance.

We can never all agree on "the proper way to live." Nor is it clear that we should, necessarily. It is our right and responsability to seek this out, but we have no grounds on which to tell others how to live, nor they have any grounds on which to tell us how to live. We can DELEGATE the RIGHT that we have to live free from interference from each other to a common authority to implement the protection of our rights... to institutionalize the Golden Rule into law; but we can not give any "authority" the arbitrary "right" to persecute nor prosecute others for failing to obey OUR ideology. We don't have this right in the first place, and so there are no grounds on which to delegate it.

I can't find my copy of the specific case, but the Supreme Court explicitly ruled something to the effect that "laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void"; there is no obligation to obey them, and there is no obigation for the laws to be enforced; it is if they never existed.

Marijuana laws ARE ILLEGAL. They violate our Constitutional right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

And the "governments" "war on drugs" is a complete sham/scam/failure... what it really is is a war on the citizens, the law, and the Constitution.

Don't buy into it. It's wrong. And the illegal laws prohibiting pot use are just that, illegal laws which OUGHT to be ignored -just like ALL illegal, ideological NON-OBJECTIVE rules.
palembic
Senior Member
Username: palembic

Post Number: 2377
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post

Hum-eh-hum-eh ...
excuse a "other-side-of-the-pond"-er to break in!
To be blunt: can anybody explain what this thread is about? What the (<+'(^**%/ is "4/20" or 420. The only thing that comes in mind to me is the (beautiful) Steven Stills song "4+20". I Guess that's not it.

Now the risk of being a wiseguy again: I read the intresting post of Moder Dave about law and morality. In my student years we had this professor saying that laws were there to organize community and the interaction of man. Morality has to do with "rules" inside man and are dealing for example how man deals with those laws.

JUst an thought of someone who doesnet the heck know what this is all about LOL

Paul the bad one
jacko
Senior Member
Username: jacko

Post Number: 610
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:41 am:   Edit Post

And we're still waiting to find out what a 'Facebook' is (from Rich' question earlier).
On the subject of smoking, I'm really glad to say Smoking inside a public place has been outlawed in Scotland. It's so nice to be able to come home from a gig only smelling of sweat - and sometimes a little perfume ;-).
Mrs J even lets me bring my gear into the house now!!!!

Graeme
spose
Intermediate Member
Username: spose

Post Number: 101
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 3:30 am:   Edit Post

just for the record, it's not illegal everywhere. In my state(Oregon), there are medical laws that allow the use of the noble weed.
kmh364
Senior Member
Username: kmh364

Post Number: 1856
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:19 am:   Edit Post

RE: this thread

HUH? LOL!

Peace,

Kevin
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 404
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 4:41 am:   Edit Post

Paul,
The most common 420 myth is it was the California police radio call code for pot smokers being seen. Another popular myth is it started as a "tea time" ritual by some folks in the 70's. Everyday at 4:20 PM they would sit down and smoke a joint. In any event it has become part of the pot culture.

Hope this helps explain things.

Keith
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3676
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 5:59 am:   Edit Post

Graeme;

I'm guessing that if you have school-age children, you need to know about facebook; and if you don't, you probably don't want to know. <g> My guess is that it's something akin to myplace.com.

Edit: that should read "myspace"

(Message edited by davehouck on April 21, 2006)
dela217
Senior Member
Username: dela217

Post Number: 649
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:01 am:   Edit Post

I am not sure of how 4 20 came around either. But one story I have heard that it was two students that would meet on a hill after class every day at 4:20 for a smoke. So.....now everytime 4 and 20 are used together, it takes on a different meaning. As in the date. From what I understand, it had nothing to do with the date, but the time of day.

There are stories on the internet of the origin of 4 20, but I am too lazy to Google it.

Great thread.

Michael
olieoliver
Advanced Member
Username: olieoliver

Post Number: 254
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:09 am:   Edit Post

Tom, I never said anything negative about 4-20 or hash Weds. But I wonder why when most are smoking pot and see a police officer, they hide their stuff and even deny they have it when ask. Rosa didn't duck behind the seat so no one would see her. She had courage to stand up for what she felt was her "moral" right.
I support a persons right to protest for their rights. But I don't see how ducking down in you seat, tossing the reefer in your mouth to dispose of it and then sparying air freshener to conceal the aroma accomplishes this.
jacko
Senior Member
Username: jacko

Post Number: 611
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:10 am:   Edit Post

Thanks for that Dave. Indeed, my three Teenagers all have Myspace accounts. That's why i do all my surfing etc. at work - I can't get on the PC at night;-)

Graeme
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3677
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:13 am:   Edit Post

Michael; I've had my morning cup of coffee now, so I've gone and googled it. <g>

Paul; here you go!
crgaston
Intermediate Member
Username: crgaston

Post Number: 186
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:14 am:   Edit Post

Do a search for 420 etymology. I would post links, but I'm at school and they block drug stuff.
olieoliver
Advanced Member
Username: olieoliver

Post Number: 255
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 6:27 am:   Edit Post

I have but one last thing to say about 4/20/06
, last day of Passover this year, DUDE.
palembic
Senior Member
Username: palembic

Post Number: 2378
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:00 am:   Edit Post

Thanks moder!
Really fun to learn about that side of the "over-the-pond" community.
Far out!
Hehehehe

Paul TBO

BTW: I got the Steven Stills link right
lidon2001
Intermediate Member
Username: lidon2001

Post Number: 136
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:19 am:   Edit Post

The "infinite wisdom" of the US government:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/04/21/medical.marijuana.ap/index.html
bracheen
Senior Member
Username: bracheen

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:24 am:   Edit Post

OK Bill, have fun. See you when you get back. If you happen to stop in Johnny Foley's pub on O'Farrell St tell them hello for me.

Sam
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 1230
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 9:36 am:   Edit Post

The hotel has wifi so I just stopped by. HOLY C**P, what did I start!!???!!??? I'm amazed at two things:

first, the sheer number of posts in less than 24 hours, and

secondly, the ability of this board to take on a political discusssion of this sort, complete with disagreements, and handle it with respect and dignity. It makes me proud to hang out with you guys.

420: There are numerous urban myths:

* California police code for pot smoking in progress
*The number of chemicals in cannabis
*The time of day that cannabis was "invented" (yes, I've really heard people claim this!)

The above are all false. The truth appears to be that it started in the 70's at a high schol in San Rafael (not far from Alembic - LOL) where a group of students would meet after school at 4:20 p.m. to indulge together.

As for laws, conceptually (from a legal standpoint) all laws fall into one of two categories: malum in se, and malum prohibitum. Malum in se crimes are those that are "inherently bad", sort of Olie's initial proposition that illegal=immoral. These are crimes like murder, theft, rape, assault, burglary, etc., where one individual's conduct adversely affects another. These are the type of crime where there is an actual victim and most in society would agree these are "bad" or immoral acts.

Malum prohibitum crimes are those crimes that society deems to be "bad". These include victimless "crimes" like getting high, prostitution, gambling, unmarried sex, improprer corporate record keeping, even oral sex (I dare anyone on this list to argue oral sex is "immoral" "bad" or "evil", yet there are places in this country (I believe) where it is still illegal!).

As for the malum in se type of crime, I suspect most of us would ascribe to Olie's theory: illegal=immoral. It is the malum prohibitum crimes that create the controversy, both on this list and among people everywhere throughout history.

Joey:

Name one person who played better loaded? I believe if you read any of the books about the Grateful Dead, whether excellent biographies like Blair Jackson's "Garcia", Dennis McNally's book, or even Phil's autobiography "Searching for the Sound", you will find a very strong argument that psychedelics, especially LSD, had a profoundly positive effect on their music. Drugs are like most things, they can be used or abused. The music world bears ample evidence of both, IMHO. Unfortunately, when some drugs are abused, there are very dire consequences that we all know all too well.

Well, I've got to get ready, my panel starts in an hour and a half. Then lunch with Tommy Chong! (Maybe I should ask him about his guitar and amp set up in "Up in Smoke"? LOL

I love you guys

Bill, tgo
byoung
Advanced Member
Username: byoung

Post Number: 289
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post

Can't we switch to some easier topic like immigration reform?

Religion?

:-)

Bradley
flaxattack
Senior Member
Username: flaxattack

Post Number: 1079
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 10:27 am:   Edit Post

what the heck
ALL LAWS ARE MADE TO BE BROKEN.........
the heck with 420
i would much rather 69 with my girlfriend
bracheen
Senior Member
Username: bracheen

Post Number: 1005
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post

Unmarried sex is a crime?
olieoliver
Advanced Member
Username: olieoliver

Post Number: 256
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post

Bradley, I have a subject much deeper and always the center of a heated argument.
"Peanut or plain M&Ms"
adriaan
Senior Member
Username: adriaan

Post Number: 859
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post

I don't think I've gotten involved with his thread yet. Not sure if I should.

Now go and play my Alembic for a couple of hours, just to cleanse my brain.
byoung
Advanced Member
Username: byoung

Post Number: 290
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:41 pm:   Edit Post

Olie,

I'm on a low carb diet, so M&Ms fall into the "illegal, immoral, or fattening" category.

But I like the ones with crisp rice in them, anyways.

My stand on the 420 issue:

1) medical marijuana is a no brainer-- there is way too much evidence that points to the benefits for, e.g., chemotherapy patients, glaucoma sufferers, etc.

2) We should have a consistent policy with regards to drugs, i.e. either legalize them or re-instate the 18th amendment. It is quite inarguable that alcohol has extreme deleterious effects on society-- drunk driving (alcohol-related crashes, really) kills thousands per year:

During 2004, 16,694 people in the U.S. died in alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes, representing 39% of all traffic-related deaths (NHTSA 2005).

Anyhow, it seems that alcohol kills and maims a whole lot more people than marijuana ever did, and I can't remember the last time I heard about a violent pot-head (although I've known a few violent drunks in my time).

I don't really think that smoking pot is a good idea. However, I think that people should be able to live their lives the way they see fit (so long as they don't harm others).

Just from a public service perspective, if feel that you have an issue with drinking and/or drugs, you can try a 12-step program (i.e. Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous). It worked for me, and I'd be happy to share my story privately.

Bradley
alembic76407
Senior Member
Username: alembic76407

Post Number: 445
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 1:51 pm:   Edit Post

It seems to me , if 39% of all traffic deaths are caused by drunk drivers, so it would stand to reason that 61% of all traffic deaths are caused by sober drivers, theirs the problem

David T
adriaan
Senior Member
Username: adriaan

Post Number: 860
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 2:15 pm:   Edit Post

It is so cute when logic gets bent.

David, your argument - whether you like it or not - is that those 39% of accidents would have happened even if the driver had been sober. Even without knowing any of the details surrounding the individual accidents, I don't think so.

Mind you, I enjoy the alcoholic drink here and there. But having learned to drive a car at the not so tender age of 39, I can tell you I wouldn't trust myself behind the wheel within a couple of hours after drinking even a single glass of wine. And no, I'm not driving like a granny.
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h

Post Number: 405
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 7:18 pm:   Edit Post

While I have not smoked pot since my early twenties I see no reason it should not be allowed for medicinal use. My younger brother passed away from complications due to AIDS. The lack of appetite and the wasting could have been improved if he had ready access to marijuana. I'm actually getting tired of the FDA going against medical studies and it own medical boards for the sake of a religious political agenda. There you go Bradley I brought religion into it. LOL.

As far as the social use of marijuana I don't see much difference between it and other so called vices. Like alcohol it can impair ones senses. Also let's not forget many over the counter drugs can put a driver under the influence. I see no reason that someone driving while high should be treated differently than someone driving drunk. Likewise I feel second hand smoke from a joint is no different than second hand smoke from a cigarette. I don't think it is healthy and would rather not be around it (I'm an ex-cigarette smoker by the way). To roll this all up. I have no problem with legalizing marijuana and treating it the same as alcohol or any other legal drug. This would have many more advantages than disadvantages in my opinion.

Keith
grynchin
Junior
Username: grynchin

Post Number: 32
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 8:04 pm:   Edit Post

Can I say something really perverted to take our minds off of this? Ha. Really, what has killed more brain cells, this thread or that ounce? At first I didn't think this thread was that cool, but then I turned on the blacklight, popped in "Dark Side of the Moon" and proceeded to read on.

Is that Patchouli I smell?
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 743
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 8:11 pm:   Edit Post

Well, I just hope to hell my DeadHead dentist never gets the idea in his head that if Jerry and Phil performed their art better with psychedelics, he will too!!!!

J o e y
tom_z
Advanced Member
Username: tom_z

Post Number: 363
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   Edit Post

Joey - can you be completely sure you haven't already been on the receiving end of some "enhanced dentistry?"

Just kidding, of course.

But it makes one think.

Tom
prodigalson
Junior
Username: prodigalson

Post Number: 27
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Friday, April 21, 2006 - 8:36 pm:   Edit Post

The first time i saw 420 was in the dead parking lot around 92. It was 420 on the front of the shirt and on the back 24/7.That's alot of smoking!!
adriaan
Senior Member
Username: adriaan

Post Number: 862
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Saturday, April 22, 2006 - 12:53 am:   Edit Post

Tom wrote, "Joey - can you be completely sure you haven't already been on the receiving end of some "enhanced dentistry?""

No kidding - my wife just had a temporary filling inserted into a molar with some pain killer paste under it.
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 1231
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 1:34 pm:   Edit Post

Back from the conference.

A great time had by all. On Thursday night there was a party sponsored by "High Times" magazine & NORML. A guy I never heard of before named Jon Nicholson who records on Warner Brothers played solo acoustic. Blues/country flavored originals and other styes too. We talked after his set and he invited me to sit in with him when he played again after the speeches/awards/auction was over. I played on a really nice, pretty song he wrote about his 96 year old grandma trying cannabis for the first time. He asked me to sit in with him at his gig the next night (Saturday), so I ran across the bay to my studio, grabbed my acoustic amp, and joined him for a long (1.5-2 hours?) set at Pier 23 on San Francisco's Embarcedero. Very challenging backing someone on acoustic lead when you've never even heard most of the songs before. Fortunately, most of his tunes had fairly logical chord progressions, so I kept an eye on his left hand and generally played very lightly or not at all for the first verse, then started mixing it in. This was VERY different from my usual gig playing and singing with a full band. I can see why Jerry reportedly really enjoyed this stuff.

This thread turned into quite the interesting conversation while I was away. As the old saying goes: "May you live in interesting times"

Bill, tgo

(Message edited by lbpesq on April 24, 2006)
bigredbass
Senior Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 752
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Sunday, April 23, 2006 - 7:26 pm:   Edit Post

Bill, I do a lot of rehearsal-less sub jobs where all you can do is get there on time, strap in and tune, and watch hands and listen like hell for the next five hours. A lot like skeet or trap shooting. Believe me, this will smarten you up fast, and I really enjoy the workout it gives my musical reflexes. Even more anxious on bass where you CAN'T sit out the first verse till you catch the tune!

J o e y
hollis
Senior Member
Username: hollis

Post Number: 650
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 9:20 am:   Edit Post

I'd tell you where I stand on this issue, but I'm still sitting and this damn Stop Sign waiting for it to turn Green!

Amazing group folks!
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 1235
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 11:19 am:   Edit Post

Hollis:

That's one of my favorite jokes!

O.K., anticipating the obvious, here goes:

Q: What's the differnce between a drunk driver and a stoned driver?

A: The drunk driver approaches a stop sign and blows right through it without even slowing down. The stoned driver approaches a stop sign, comes to a complete stop, and sits there waiting for it to turn green.

Bill, tgo
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 3690
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post

Bill; cool story about the impromptu gig!

(Message edited by davehouck on April 24, 2006)

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