| Author | Message | ||
| essencetimestwo
Intermediate Member Username: essencetimestwo Post Number: 118 Registered: 8-2003 |
HELP! I think I have made a huge mistake. I recently sold my Spoiler so that I could buy and try a Ken Smith bass. I purchased a BSR4J with a quilted maple body. The bass plays great and sounds good by itself. I took it to rehearsal last night and it couldn't hold a candle to my Essence when playing with the band. It got lost in the mix, no sustain, much lower output and for lack of a better term, lost its balls. Ken Smith has a great reputation and is supposed to have some of the best basses around. Has any body else experienced the same as me. If so what did you do. I like the bass. It does sound very good by itself and to be honest, is more comfortable and plays better than the Spoiler. What should I do? | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1158 Registered: 3-2004 |
I don't think maple provides much in the way of punchy mids. To me, it's great for a slap bass, but less useful for fingerstyle playing. You can probably do some EQ work to bring it back out front. Try playing with boosting some frequencies in the 300-800Hz range and see if something in there does it for you. I just surfed over to Ken Smith's site to check out the specs on this bass. Ken Smith does make some great instruments, but I wouldn't put the BSR4J in that category. It's a bolt-on neck, after all. You're going to drop some sustain in that neck joint. You also get a pau ferro board, and I don't think it stands up to ebony for meatiness. This type of reaction has to be part of the reason why Alembic never went down the bolt-on neck route to produce instruments at a lower price point. -bob | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 788 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bolt necks are just different. People often talk about a neckthru having more sustain; on a loud bandstand, ANYTHING will sustain at volume. Having owned both (and swearing off bolt necks from now on for several reasons) the REAL difference is that neckthrus carry more fundamental and 1st harmonic into the signal going to the amp. You can even hear this unplugged by playing an open string and putting your ear to the upper horn. This happens whether its fairly common woods (maple, alder, mahogany) or some of the more exotic menus from ALEMBIC and others. And passes this through to whatever pickups/electronics are on hand. All the Smith players I can think of are pop/funk/slap guys. I can't think of any deep groove guys who use them. Smiths remind me a lot of some other brands that are great for that boingy, slappy sound. Which reminds me of a classic case of that sound at work I once saw, and learned a lot from: Modulus Six through a nice Hartke stack with effects, and a first rate guy playing this setup. Had that real 'new string' clangy sound, lots of high bass/low mids and plenty sizzle on top. Would have been a nice tone for certain types of recording, but was COMPLETELY useless playing with a dance band: NO BASS to lock up with the kick, no anchor, no groove to dance to. Sound familiar? The Smiths I've tried were nice axes. Sounds like you're gonna have to rethink your sound, new amp settings, different strings, etc. I'd consider a 15 and get REAL familiar with the 50 to 200hz range on your rig! You now get to learn how to take lemons and make lemonade!!! But hey, you're talking to a guy that's shot himself in the butt more than once when it comes to equipment choices, it happens to all of us. I'm sure you'll find a way to live with your KS, whilst saving for another ALEMBIC. J o e y | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 901 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ouch. Bob and Joey nailed it pretty well. Ever since I had to part with my S2, I've tried a lot of other basses, including some I've modded and one I built to taste (it was very feasible to do that with the change left over from selling my Alembic - even after my son's tuition was paid). But...I am starting to really miss the thru-neck Alembic sound. Don't get me wrong, I like bolt-ons for their punch, particularly when I want to thump. I just finished building a mahogany bodied bolt on with a Modulus Genesis neck plus Dark Star pu's - in many respects the Cadillac of what I wanted from a bolt-on. It sings a very cool tune for a bolt-on - in fact, I flat-out love it, but it's not the only sound I want to have. I need another Alembic - soon. I really miss the way Alembics place themselves in the mix. See ya in the want ads, Simon. By the way, the only way to see the world with a bolt-on neck is with an SF-2. It opens a big array of sounds I've never been able to get from any other EQ system - makes non-Alembics into a different animal. If you haven't already, you might think about trying that. Bill | ||
| olieoliver
Advanced Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 327 Registered: 2-2006 |
Bill, I get more "punch" from my neck-thru basses than my bolt on versions. I have 4, 5 & 6 string Warwick's in bolt on and neck-thru models and get much more punch from the neck-thru models. But I have a couple on Daion basses that are neck-thru and don't have the punch my bolt on Warwicks have. Of all my bolt on basses my Kubickis have the best punch and deep sound. They really are great basses. I personaly like like the "boingy slappy" sound, when it's needed, but I am a also deep-groove player. This is why I have a variety of basses. Not to collect them but it allows me to have a choice in tone, sound, feel... I will admit that since I've purchased my Alembics I've only used my other basses once playing out but I still play them at home. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 902 Registered: 7-2003 |
I suspect we're talking about different "punch" sounds, but, to each his own. I should have elaborated a bit more - Alembics have a much nicer and stronger way of presenting the low fundamentals than a lot of other neck thrus and all the bolt ons I've played. On the other hand, what I like about bolt-ons (at least those with really good neck construction) is a natural percussiveness (thump?) I hear. Takes a really solid bolt on neck and body to get a lot of real, "mechanical" sustain along with that (not just the kind of sustain that's a natural result of amplification, as Joey pointed out). Alembics do that naturally and offer a more toneful way to key into the groove. | ||
| flaxattack
Senior Member Username: flaxattack Post Number: 1115 Registered: 4-2004 |
something tells me( or i hope) that alembic set necks dont fall into this bolt on "controversy" | ||
| southpaw
Member Username: southpaw Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2004 |
Right you are Flax. I have an Orion & Distillate. My Orion has great sustain! It matches the Distillate easily. Also, I must say, I have a mid 70's Fender Jazz and a G&L, both of these bolt ons have very good sustain as well. I asked an old studio bassist about this subject last year and he said; "A good neck joint is a good neck joint! I don't care if it is bolts, glue or tape, if it's solid, it will ring"... A Yogi Berra response but some truth to it. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1309 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ahh, but with a neck-thru there's nothing to worry about. So it's either "a good neck joint" or "a good neck & a joint". Take your pick. hehehehehehe Bill, tgo | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 436 Registered: 2-2005 |
Ah... Leave it to an attorney to split hairs on what a joint is when all that was being questioned was the quality and duration of the buzz. ;-) Keith (Message edited by keith_h on May 22, 2006) | ||
| olieoliver
Advanced Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 328 Registered: 2-2006 |
As long as the "buzz" doesn't interfere with the playing.  | ||
| darkstar01
Junior Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2005 |
never does. :D | ||
| olieoliver
Advanced Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 331 Registered: 2-2006 |
WEELLLLLLL.....I dunno' | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1310 Registered: 7-2004 |
For some it do, and for some it don't. I once played in a band where the other guitar player was an excellent blues and slide player, that is until he "indulged", then he couldn't even remember a G chord! For others there appears to be no negative effect on playing, and often a positive one. Everyone's different. Otherwise there would only be one bass and one guitar manufactured and this thread would never have been born. (Oy vey, I'm getting philosophical). Now put that in your pipe and smoke it! Bill, tgo | ||
| jet_powers
Advanced Member Username: jet_powers Post Number: 272 Registered: 2-2003 |
Personally, I've seen alcohol wreak more havoc amongst musicians than any other substance. When the abuse is of drugs higher than Class D, I tend to remove myself from the scene........ JP | ||
| essencetimestwo
Intermediate Member Username: essencetimestwo Post Number: 121 Registered: 8-2003 |
I think my problem has very little to do with bolt on vs. neck through. I think it is a lot of different factors. Wood selection, electronics and such. I think some here hit it on the head saying that this bass may not be suited to the style of music. Right now I am playing with a rather loud hard rock band. My Alembic keeps up but the Smith doesn't. The Smith is a great playing, very comfortable and great sounding bass that may be suited better for a different style of music. I like the bass a lot and think I will keep it. I play a lot of different styles and although I am just in the one band now who knows what's around the corner and what I will be playing next week. If nothing else I'll keep it to play at home and take the Alembic to gigs. | ||
| 2400wattman
Intermediate Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2005 |
I know after spending that kind of money(a lot of hard earned money) that the bass should be perfect for just about anything, and the last thing you would want to do is upgrade the electronics or anything else for that matter, but here is my example. I have a Fender '62 reissue Noel Redding Jazz Bass(bolt on of course) which w/other upgrades and the addition of Bartolini 9W-4's(very loud and focused p/up's -they don't make anymore)sounds amazing for just about anything and I'm not running an on board pre amp it's completely passive. I also have a Modulus VJ bass(graphite neck, also bolt on)w/Bartolini 9J-1's(lower output p/up's) w/the Aguilar OBP-1 pre amp. They both sound great and the Modulus does have more sustain over the Fender but it is not as loud, I mean I have to crank my input gain on my pre amp to get it up to the same level as my passive bass(going through the active input of course).So this is where customizing comes into play. Your needs versus what the instrument can produce. Do you really like/love the feel of the bass?, but it's not keeping up w/your Alembic? Try changing the p/up's. It's the cheapest way to go and probably with a bass like the Smith(they make beautiful basses) the only and last route to go. I don't know what kind of p/up's are in it now(shape wise-J or soap bar?)but I would check out Seymour Duncan( they've got a great selection),EMG,Nordstrand(go to www.bestbassgear.com they have quite a bit of to choose from) or Lindy Fralin. You can even contact these guys and tell them what you want and they'll guide you in the right direction. Good luck! | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 904 Registered: 7-2003 |
There are so many variables that make up (and can dramatically change) the sound of a bass that the possibilities are kind of limitless. Electronics, construction design, woods, finishes, etc. All may account for big or small influences on your sound. I struggle often with whether to tinker or not. In a way, one of the things that's led me to do more of my own building (more like, a little building and a lot of choosing and assembling parts) is the desire to fine-tune my way to a more likable sound. One thing going for you with your KS is that you sound like you really like its feel and playing sensations. Frankly, if I had your bass and felt that way, I'd be looking for "non-surgical" (i.e. no routing) mods to the electronics (hands-down, the least intrusive mod) to see if I could get to where I wanted to be (or, just as likely, someplace else good that I never thought of before). The hard part is that it's hard to guess what would be best to try - basses and builders are so individual, so varied and feedback from others on specific changes is so hard to match with your particular design issue (and so subjective, too) that you're sort of on your own. But I think for some of us, sometimes it's worth a try anyway. Basses that meet the criteria your KS has already hit upon don't come along every day. Maybe worth the risk/cost of trying? If you were successful, wouldn't you be glad you did? (I can't believe I just posted encouragement to modify a designer bass on this Club...Well, at least I didn't suggest rethinking anything about an Alembic (gasp) - LOL) Bill | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1166 Registered: 3-2004 |
I don't think that particular Ken Smith is at the "designer bass" level. At least, no more than a Sadowsky or any other premium quality Jazz bass. Jazz basses were all over loud rock in the early days, so it certainly is possible to get the "right" tone with a bolt-on. If spending $5K weren't an issue, you could send the Smith to Alembic and have them build you a Europa that matches the playing feel. Alembic pickups and electronics are always an option, especially if you only want to make the natural sound of the instrument louder. On the other hand, I might look to Bartolini to fatten up a Jazz tone that wasn't quite there in the wood. You can always talk to the Ken Smith team, especially if you got the bass new. You also might give some critical thought to what your bass sounds like today and to what you want it to sound like. Maybe identify some recordings of each and then use them to help you communicate with the pros. Simon, did you experiment with EQ at all? If so, any results to report? One last crazy thought to throw out at you is your string choice. Can you say what strings are on your various basses? I know that I have tried some strings that have sounded anemic and others that have been real hammers. -bob | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 905 Registered: 7-2003 |
I was just being generous about the "designer" part (particularly since none of my current basses would qualify either - LOL). Good point on strings, Bob. Each bass reacts differently to particular strings (enough to make you nuts). Trying out strings is a lot cheaper, easier and faster than other options. (Message edited by bassman10096 on May 24, 2006) | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 3333 Registered: 6-2000 |
I would also suggest that you should approach playing each bass differently. I know I run in to this with players coming from other makes to Alembic. If you play an Alembic like you've always played your P-bass, you're probably won't get the most out of it. Evaluate how you play. The Essence and the KS are two different beasts. Each will need a different physical interaction to reach its full potential. For instance, if you always play near the bridge on the Alembic with a light touch, try playing over the neck pickup and a bit harder on the KS. Be methodical, and you'll discover the most appropriate place for each bass, even if one of them winds up with a different owner. The string experiments are a good idea, and try things you never thought you'd like (thinking flatwounds or stainless steel). If you don't like it on the Smith, try it on the Essence, you might learn something new there too. Good luck, Simon! | ||
| olieoliver
Advanced Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 338 Registered: 2-2006 |
I can attest to that Mica. I had to adjust my right hand slap technique considerably on my Alembic versus my other basses. |
