| Author | Message | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 399 Registered: 11-2003 |
Fellow Alembicians, Wanted to pass along some info about a product some of my fellow club members might be insterested in - cables by Lava Cable. Disclaimer: Mark S., the owner, is a friend of mine. I've known him for about 10 years. Like me, he is an officer in our armed forces. He started his company in his home, and at the moment, he is the owner and only employee (other than his wife, who assists with orders!). I'm not shilling for him, nor am I compensated in anyway for this, nor do I seek compensation. I just want to pass along info about a product I think is outstanding. If you choose to check it out, cool. If not, equally cool. This being said, I had Mark completely rewire my rig with custom cables. It was not cheap (I went with top of the line stuff that he offers) but worth every penny. My rig and my basses, even my non-Alembics, are incredibly quiet now, and the tone is improved 100-fold. Lows are lows, highs are highs, and everything in between. Lava Cable offers a wide range of products, and they're all good in my experience (I've used several different types of cables Lava produces, and while some are better than others, they are all superior, IMHO, to Monster, Planet Waves, etc. cables). They're not for everyone due to the potential cost if you go top of the line (hmmm ... just like Alembics! :-)) but if you want the very best in cables, you might want to check them out. Mark will custom make cables to your specifications, do racks, pedal boards, etc. Again, if it's not your cup of tea, cool. Just passing along info. I chose Lava because I figured since I have what I consider to be the finest basses on the planet (Alembics), they ought to have the finest cables connecting them to the finest preamp and tone control available (F1-X and SF-2) (IMHO). I'm very happy I did. His website is www.lavacable.com. Check it out if you're so inclined. I'm extremely satisfied with my cables - I've A/B'd them with Monster, Planet Waves, etc., and these cables are the best I've used in almost thirty years as a bassist. Alan | ||
| 57basstra
Advanced Member Username: 57basstra Post Number: 345 Registered: 4-2005 |
Thanks for the info, Alan! | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1634 Registered: 7-2004 |
No offense to your friend Alan, but his website completely turns me off. A LOT of info, poorly organized. And one of my pet peeves are people selling things who don't tell you how much they cost. If there's a price list on the site, I couldn't find it, and I shouldn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to find out how much a cable costs. Bill, tgo | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 559 Registered: 2-2005 |
Bill, I was able to find prices. All I did was click on the cable brand I wanted and then scroll down the page to see all of the prices for standard length cables along with plug selections and an order button. I do agree that the site seems overly busy to me. I couldn't find anyway to compare prices without adding cable to my shopping cart. Drop the graphics and give me good old text any day. Keith | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1317 Registered: 3-2004 |
Alan- You say you chose Lava, but nothing about which cables you actually selected. I expected to find a relatively generic guy-that-builds-cables site, but he offers a bunch of brand name stuff. Are all his cables custom build, or are some of these off-the-shelf packages? I have to agree with the others that his site design is pretty crappy though. Seems like he's trying to shove too much praise of the cable down your throat a little too quickly. The buying guide was good in concept, once I got there. Personally, I need a bunch of 6-12" cables for arranging a pedal board, but I am probably going to look for some quality connectors and chop up a 6' Monster Bass cable for it. I have done blind cable testing with 20' instrument cords and did find some differences between various brands, so I do believe in using quality cables. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 2020 Registered: 9-2003 |
So the site is busy? As an an audiophile, and an Electrical Engineer, I realize that there is a lot more to cables than most people think. FWIW, I had no trouble navigating....I clicked on "buyer's guide" and got the comparison chart and the pricing in seconds. I imagine that at the very least, if Lava didn't have a lot of info on their site to explain and try to convince you to dump $200-plus on a single interconnect, it'd be a tough sell to musicians used to the craptastic $10-$25 stuff GC (et al) pushes. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1319 Registered: 3-2004 |
Kevin- I think you'd be hard pressed to convince any of said musicians to pay 10-20x their normal price for a cable. There's a large crowd that will barely spend that much on a guitar or amp. I suspect that the majority of sales involving $30+ cables are made to people who know what they are buying. That sort of convincing has to be done with ears rather than rhetoric. If any words would sway, they would have to be those of independent reviewers, not the proprietor. In any case, a simple home page would be greatly preferred. A link to a page on the merits of high-end cables should be enough without making for such a messy first impression. Again, let me say that I do believe it is worth it to use high quality cables, so I support this kind of business. Just my opinion... | ||
| ajdover
Advanced Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 400 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob, "You say you chose Lava, but nothing about which cables you actually selected. I expected to find a relatively generic guy-that-builds-cables site, but he offers a bunch of brand name stuff. Are all his cables custom build, or are some of these off-the-shelf packages?" I chose Van Den Hul and Evidence Audio. All of my stuff was custom made to my specifications. Since I live nearby, Mark came over and measured my rig, and we determined from there what I would need. What I got was precisely configured amp-to-speaker cables (with the attendant decrease in signal loss), patch cables for the pedals I use, and two long Van Den Hul cables. I consider myself an independent reviewer (Mark did not discount the amount I paid for my cables to his cost - I got a bit of a discount, but not to the point where he was going to lose money). I've used all the "high end" cables out there, and I can say unequivocably that Lava Cable is better than what you can buy at your local guitar store. If they were lousy, or didn't improve my tone, I wouldn't use them, period. They're not, and they do. Again, I've A/B'd them with what I used to use (Monster Cable and Planet Waves). It's like night and day. My main rig is ridiculously quiet - no RF interference or hiss to speak of. I would have never believed it myself until I experienced it. Lava Cable may not be everyone's cup of tea. There are many other manufacturers out there that may meet one's needs, perhaps at a lower price. That's cool. I do know this, though - I've been to Mark's shop. I've seen him personally making cables. I know he makes a good product because I've used them and seen the process. Much like Alembics - I use them and have been to the place where they're made. I've seen it up close, and I can tell one and all that it's a great product. If one chooses not to buy, cool. Just passing along the info. I agree that the website could use some work - what website doesn't? Perhaps Mark will see your comments and make it more user friendly. That's what it's all about - making things the best they can be, whether it's an Alembic, a Lava Cable, or a website. I know he'll appreciate the feedback. Alan | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 705 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just to confuse things, Alan, I'll throw another "Bob" into the discussion :-) I'm glad you posted. Especially given the "reconnaissance" by the crew here, I found my way through the site pretty quickly, and think there's lots of good stuff here, especially the links to reviews (though agree it generally feels busy and not as friendly as it might be). I've listened to a ridiculous number of cables in my stereo system (now wired mostly with Cardas Golden Cross, though that was before they came out with Reference...), and they do make a big difference. One of the things I appreciate about this guy is that he seems to be a fairly unique source for a lot of high end manufacturers. I remember Dino telling us about Tara a while back, but you couldn't find them anywhere; Cardas' web site had some hints about instrument cables, but no place to buy them; etc. So this seems to be a rich source of boutique wire. Though in the interests of keeping things "fair and balanced", I'll just add that if the guy at bayou was doing 1/4 inch instrument cables in purple, I might have one by now - I'm particularly impressed with his apparent skill and emphasis on soldering technique, which I'm inclined to believe is nearly as important as the material itself. While you did a pretty good job of responding to Bob's question, you fell back on an ambiguous statement: "I can say unequivocably that Lava Cable is better than what you can buy at your local guitar store". As far as I can tell, little or none of it is actually "lava cable" - Mark may be an excellent, artisan-style craftsmen, but he is using a variety of material from other sources. Still, that's all cool, and I'll go back to read more as time permits. My current instrument cable is from MIT, which I'm pretty happy with, but depending on how the economy goes I might consider upgrading that, as well as the patch cords and speaker cables in my rig (speaker cables in particular). What I'd like to know more about is this: what have you learned about instrument cables for bass? Most of the reviews and other info are in the context of those concerned with the higher (not to say lesser) frequencies, and it matters. For my own purposes, I'm interested in a simple 1/4" instrument cable for those of us with the battery-powered basses, not those fancy 5-pin things :-) Thanks. -Bob (The Other Bob) [edit: various minor clarifications, within about fifteen minutes of posting and probably before anyone saw it] (Message edited by bob on September 21, 2006) | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 401 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob, What I've noticed is my tone is much "cleaner," if that is the right term. It just sounds purer to me. Of course, tone is a very subjective thing, so what works for me might not work for someone else. I'll reiterate that my rig is now dead quiet as well. I've used the Van Den Hul's with my practice amp, and it's the same thing - very quiet, very clear, pure tone with no interference. Now, can you get this from another manufacturer? Sure. I just thought I'd put this out there due to my experience with the product, and to provide another resource for folks who might be interested in these kinds of products. And you're right, Mark doesn't make the cable himself; rather, he takes the best components he can find, and crafts them into what I consider a superlative product. Much like Alembics - the very best components and materials crafted by artisans into what many here consider the finest instrument on the planet, cost be damned. Mark has emailed me back already and told me he's going to revise his site to make it less "busy" as many here have noted. I know he appreciates the feedback. If desired, I can post pics of the cables I have showing the soldering Mark did. Can't speak to Bayou cables as I've never used them, but I know the work Mark did for me is top notch compared to what I was using before. Let me know if you're interested and I'll oblige. Alan | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 2021 Registered: 9-2003 |
Good viewpoints all. I was seriously considering Butch @ Bayou to cable my rigs, but thanks to Alan, I may reconsider. Butch's product is nice stuff, but you can do better, although it will cost significantly more. I do understand that most players won't spend more than $10-$30 on a cable, but most players also don't/won't play Alembic, and that is a loss for them on both accounts. I look at it this way: I have tens of thousands wrapped up in my basses and bass amp rig alone. Then there's my guitar rig(s). It doesn't make much sense to cable it up with $100 worth of cheap cables. After all, I paid a fortune for this stuff because you (I) can hear (and feel) the difference. To cheap out on cables compromises the whole purpose of the rig, i.e., best sound possible (albeit with restraint on physical size and overall expediture). The best sounding stuff requires the best sounding cables. Bottom Line: I wouldn't put K-Mart tires on a Ferrari, and I wouldn't put cheap cables on my Alembic rig. One Caveat: Remember the Law Of Diminishing returns...it takes geometrically more dosh to obtain an incremental increase in performance (after a certain price point). Nowhere is this more evident, IMHO, than in the world of hi-end (nee' audiophile) cables. You do get what you pay for, though. Just my unbiased (yeah right! LOL!) opinion. Cheers, Kevin | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 818 Registered: 10-2003 |
Kevin, While my (quite probably somewhat fried) ears might not appreciate the subtle differences between one $100 cable and another, I was acquainted with an engineer at Producer's Workshop in L.A. (back in the 80's) who could reliably identify whether or not gold patch cables were being used in the patch bay, and on which devices, just by listening. The only cables I've ever been able to reliably identify by sound "quality" alone are Radio Shaft and their ilk... ;) I agree that to some extent you do get what you pay for. John | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 560 Registered: 2-2005 |
I'm not talking about cheap cables here but the better off the shelf to high end stuff. All of this hi-fi stuff is great when you are talking about a studio or home environment. When playing out or with other instruments the nuances you can hear in a sterile environment disappear. In this case reliability is more important and I can get a very reliable chord for a lot less than the boutique stuff. Likewise by using carefull routing of the cables I can do a lot to minimize noise in both my rack and on the input. Will it be perfect? No. Will it be more than adequate for the conditions? Yes. To sum things up, the type of cable (and its cost) needs to be balanaced against the application otherwise you can end up paying for product performance that will never be realized. Keith | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 819 Registered: 10-2003 |
"When playing out or with other instruments the nuances you can hear in a sterile environment disappear." Amen to that. John | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 402 Registered: 11-2003 |
I've got to respectfully disagree with Keith here. I've used the Lava Cables I have and the Monster/Planet Waves stuff live. The Lava Cables made a huge difference. Again, clean, pure tone to my ears, anyway. And it was in a band-type setting. I do agree with Keith in that you have to have the right cable for the right application; it's why I went with the Van Den Hull for everything going from the amp to my bass, and the Evidence Audio for my preamp to amp connections, and amp to speaker connections. Again, I can only state what I've experienced. Everyone has their preferred gear, and that's cool. If you're looking for this type of gear, Lava is a good product from my experience. If not, hey, what works for you works for you, and that's all that matters in the end. Alan | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1028 Registered: 9-2002 |
Can I hear the difference between my MONSTER Bass and 'regular' cables? Yes. Does that difference translate on a buzzsaw loud stage with other instruments for me? Yes. Can I hear the difference between Monster, Cardas, Evidence, in other words, the difference between a bag of assorted $100-$200 cables? I don't know yet. Would I hear the differnce in a $1000 cable? Geez, I'd hope so! Where's the line between wonderfully esoteric and impractical for me? Any dollar figure past what a MONSTER Bass cable runs me. J o e y | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 2023 Registered: 9-2003 |
The Law Of Diminishing Returns appears yet again! Buy the best-sounding cables you can comfortably afford. There will always be better in most cases, but at a much greater cost. FWIW, I've found Monster to be microphonic, but it's hard to beat their exchange policy. Buy whatever you like and make great music with it. Enjoy! Kevin | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1056 Registered: 6-2002 |
In audio, the best way is usually to start with the most highly regarded (and usually the priciest) components, then move on to the more affordable ones. If you can't hear the difference, switch back up again. If there's still no difference to your ears, then A/B the more affordable component with a cheaper one - etc. etc. Nice to hear Van den Hul mentioned - he made a name for himself cutting diamonds for grammophone needles in kind of an oval shape. His cables must be of the pure copper, long filament type - he was one of the pioneers of that as well. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1323 Registered: 3-2004 |
Adriaan, I would agree. The problem is how to accomplish that testing in a mail-order world. I might be willing to pay $20 or so in shipping and put down a $500-1000 security deposit to get my hands on a set of high-end demo cables for a week or two. I know that I wouldn't pay more than typical Monster Cable prices site unseen for any custom cable. I would pay more, though I can't say exactly how much, if I could actually not only hear a difference but also determine that it was a meaningful improvement. At $200 or more per cable, it would have to be a truely enlightening test experience. Something like what you feel and hear when you put down a Peavey Cirrus and pick up a Europa. | ||
| kmh364
Senior Member Username: kmh364 Post Number: 2041 Registered: 9-2003 |
FWIW, there are quite a few Audio Hi-End dealers that do just that...Stereophile magazine is full of 'em. Unfortunately, interconnects have RCA's or XLR's and speaker cables are (when terminated) equipped with either lugs (spades), bananas, or pins, not 1/4" phone plugs or SpeakOns. Obviously, this is useless to a guitarist/bassist. When you're talking cables that cost as much as a bike, an in-home no-obligation demo is certainly de rigeur. I'm wondering if Lava could do just that....sort of a "put your money where your mouth is" demo deal. Considering he's a one man shop, that's probably undooable. It's hard to convince audiophiles to spend big-bucks on cables, nevermind musicians. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 827 Registered: 10-2003 |
If you really want more bang for your cable buck, buying the components and assembling them yourself is THE way to go. For pennies on the dollar (or the cost of really cheap cables from GC) you can have custom cables done exactly how you like and with connectors soldered on by a human being (with a vested interest in quality) instead of a machine. I don't think you can go wrong with Belden for mic/instrument/line level cables, Monster for speaker cables and either Switchcraft or Neutrik connectors (Speakons for speakers). Those are the staples of the broadcasting industry and designed for longevity under less than optimal conditions. Those few of you who really can hear the differences between one well-constructed high-quality cable and another in a performing situation impress the hell out of me (and I know you're out there). Most folks, though, are instead hearing quality-control issues with the connectors (bad solder joints, frayed conductors, pulled and twisted ends) with otherwise good components. Nearly all of my cables are hand-constructed out of high-quality components. As for warranty, if the connector gets ripped off I can fix it when I get home in a few minutes. I've never had a cable fail anywhere other than at the connector, and I do take care of them. Joey - I might be in Nashville this weekend. If you're going to be around I might have a chance to drop you a line. Could I con you into emailing me your contact info? John |
