| Author | Message | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 207 Registered: 5-2004 |
The band I'm currently in is considering getting a high end in ear monitoring system. The goal is to all go "ampless" and "wedge monitorless" on stage to control stage volume. That way the sound can come from the soundsystem 100% (well except drums which unfortunately doesn't have the option of silent play) and as you know live sound is better coming from the sound system rather then spilling from or being over powered from stage volume. Soooooooooooooo my question, do any of you have experience with a BassPod? Do you think it would sound good using one running directly into the sound system? I currently use an Ampeg SVTPRO5 into an Ampeg 4x10 cab. Sounds the nuts BUT in smaller rooms they don't even put me in the house mix because I'm too loud off stage. And regardless how good the amp sounds on stage out in a room an unmiked bass amp sounds wooofy and muffled. It shakes the room but there's little clearity in the notes. So what do you think? Using in ear monitors do you think a BassPod going directly into a good full range sound system would sound good? | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 829 Registered: 10-2003 |
The bass pod pro is nice, with lots of flexibility. That said, there really is no substitute for the real thing with a tube in it. How radical are your tone changes through the gig, and can they be done with the onboard electronics? If the bass can make the changes from song to song (or the trusted sound engineer can make the changes), then I'd suggest running as near to direct as possible... My band Old School now has an excellent sound guy, who actively mixes and EQs for and during each tune we play. It is truly wonderful, to the point that I'm going to try not using a bass amp at our next gig (at our last gig I turned my amp all the way down most of the night). He is a bass player with an excellent pair of ears, and I trust that while my tone might not be exactly what I would have it be out front as a matter of personal preference, it will be good (he knows what I like, so it will at least be pretty close). My plan is to run the Series 1.5 into a tube preamp he built, either at the stage end of the snake or back at the board, then run that into my channel on the board. The preamp has no tone circuitry (or one could argue that it has nothing BUT tone circuitry!) but really gives the signal a soul. He can do all the tone shaping at the board. I've found that the lower my stage volume, the better I can hear the bass! If this works well then I will probably invest in some in-ears for added clarity at some point down the road. As is, there is something very neat about hearing the bass from the house feed with all the room ambience... Also, our drummer plays behind a plexiglass screen, which does wonders for stage volume... John | ||
| hb3
Intermediate Member Username: hb3 Post Number: 174 Registered: 2-2005 |
Basspod...tone-sucker. Wasn't into it. I had a first generation model, though. I heard V.2 is better. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1324 Registered: 3-2004 |
I've been using pods for years. The original, and then the XT since it came out. I agree that the first gen was much weaker than the XT model. The effects aren't particularly useful, but the amp models are good enough to gig with. I am not sure how good the models are in terms of being accurate, though, as there is minimal difference between many of them. If you're liking the F-1X/Eden/SWR/Boogie 400/Bassman kind of tubey preamp sound, then one of those models should work pretty well for you. As far as it being a tone sucker, I don't agree. I think it works just fine. I found myself using just the Bassman model with my current gig, so I went and got a Fender pre to have the "real" thing. I am not sure I did the right thing as I now carry a volume pedal, compressor, octave box, and the foot switch for the amp. Didn't really reduce my load any at all... By the way, I generally played it through an SWR head or combo until I picked up an iAmp800 and a Schroeder cabinet. If you played it through a more colored amp/cab setup, you might not appreciate what the thing can actually do. There are also quite a few settings to play with as you get used to the gear. A direct plug into the PA head should work very well as far as allowing you to hear differences between models. -Bob | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1042 Registered: 9-2002 |
I would MUCH rather have an f2b, f1x, a Demeter preamp, or any of the 'tube channel' devices such as Avalon or Millennia, etc. I'd MUCH rather trade any supposed versatility that these idiot boxes offer (I'm SURE I'm going to sound just like an Acoustic 360 through a 210 rig!?!?!) for the tone and superior electronic performance (NOISE) of a dedicated bass preamp or channel strip, not to mention a tube in the signal path or transformer balanced outs. This is NOT to be underestimated as any poor performance or buzz or noise is gonna be right in your ears: You can't get away from it, and if you pull them out, you can't hear yourself since you don't have an amp(!). There's LOTS of things that sound great live and turn into crap in the unyielding glare of the recording environment, or any close listening situation like the in-ear monitors. What would I want to sound like out front given a choice of a POD or an ALEMBIC, Demeter, etc.? That's not even a question to me. J o e y | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1043 Registered: 9-2002 |
You know, the more I read this, the less I liked it. There's plenty amps that don't sound 'woofy and muffled' if you can learn to read your room and set up accordingly. Why can't you all just TURN DOWN yourselves to control your stage volume? And if EVERYTHING is going to be mixed from the desk, it better be a damn good live FOH guy. He must be pretty good, as it sounds like he's talked you all into a pretty severe solution to lower your stage volume. What are the other pieces doing, how are the guitar(s) and keys going 'ampless'? J o e y | ||
| hankster
Member Username: hankster Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2004 |
Joey, I think you are right about this. Keeping stage volume low is possible, and getting a good sound off the stage is also possible, if you know your equipment and listen carefully. Rick | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 830 Registered: 10-2003 |
Joey hit it on the head: You need a really good sound guy, otherwise no matter what you do it will stand a 50/50 chance of sounding like pure garbage. That said, I stand by my belief that you will be able to hear yourself just fine from the house system if everyone else is running direct as well and the sound guy actually puts you in the mix. In-ears will be gravy and you'll probably be able to run them pretty low. The bass pod pro isn't good for much where you can *really* hear it dry, but for live sound it is pretty good. Yes, it will sound like an Acoustic 360 through your 210 rig (my first real amp was a 370 with the 301 folded horn, so I have an idea what they sound like). The other presets are pretty believeable as well. And yes, the effects are almost totally useless (if I wanted '70s era effects, I would get the real thing at the pawn shop!). I do think you'll get the most mileage running direct or through an F2B or somesuch and letting the sound guy shape/butcher/ignore your signal as he needs to fit all the musical pieces together song by song. As with all things, I recommend as much experimentation as your bandmates will humor. Is your FOH guy a keeper? Have you worked with him enough that you trust him to know how you want to sound? Another thought: If you don't have to worry about an amp, you are free to wander the house during soundcheck to verify you've got tone you can live with... John | ||
| dannobasso
Advanced Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 378 Registered: 3-2004 |
I find it records really well in a lot of situations. Live I like to use my hi fi gear but I'm less picky because every venue is different. I put everything into the performance regardless of the amp set up. I just stopped doing sound for an agency because he insisted on loud obnoxious uneven mixes. Now he uses a company that mixes loud but is rude, late and prone to feedback. I guess my point is, when you have control of your environment use it. When you don't, play like you do. I love to play loud but most bands (including the wedding variety) are way too loud and the PA's can't keep up. | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 208 Registered: 5-2004 |
Well I bought a BassPodxt anyway and frankly love it. I have an AMPEG SVTPRO5 head(I think it's discontinued)and an Ampeg 4x10 bottom with a horn. Today I plugged the PODxt directly into the amp section of my Ampeg bypassing the internal pre amp to see what the pod would sound like as the preamp and I was very pleased! Like it's been mentioned I don't OWN an Eden or VOX bass amp so I don't know how REAL the models are but it sure gives me a lot to pick from and some real high quality sounds. I'm NOT into effects but the Auto WHA is kind of cool for funk. In regard to stage volume ... I play rock and the drummer i work with is an awesome singer and performer but he's a BANGGER! HE'S the single biggest reason we have a stage volume issue. Because he sings A LOT we don't want to plexy glass him (tried it) because the lights reflect off of it and you can't see him good. If I play loud enough on stage to hear myself good over him I'm too loud for a lot of the bars we play so in ear monitors will help fix that situation. In regard to the sound man, a sound man will make or break you ... we all know this. BUT like it or not, stage amp or not the sound man CONTROLS what you sound like out front. If he doesn't put my bass through the system because I'm too loud on stage my sound is going to be muffled and suck out front, doesn't matter how good it sounds to me on stage. So I have no choice but to trust him. And if I make his job easier there's a better chance I and the band will sound good. And yes the guitarist and keyboards are all going ampless too ... unheard of in a guitarist. He's using some Boss equipment along with preamp to get his sound. He's having a problem getting that clean powereful "Marshal" sound but has everything else he needs. Fact is we're all doing with a little "less" in regard to our personal sound in the hope that the over-all sound of the band and presentation is better. The actual bass sound through the pod (or direct into a board) may not be quite the same as what comes out of my Ampeg but then again ... if the sound man can't put me in the mix because I'm too loud it doesn't matter ... my sound out front will suck. It's an experiment in hopes for some real "balance." If we give the sound man volume from stage that over shadows the front end it doesn't matter how good our equipment is, we're going to sound bad. So we ... and all us we gigging musicians have no choice but to work WITH our sound men. like it or not THEY control our sound, not our amps and not our Alembics. They can make a $300 Fender sound awesome out front and a $5000 Alembic sound like crap ... sad but true. So by going ampless we're giving total control to the soundman. He has NO EXCUSES to not give us a balanced mix out front. He won't be able to say the bass is too loud on stage because there'll be no bass sound ON stage. We're even trying to talk our drummer into going with V-drums. ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD if this doesn't work ... we still own our amps! :-) Wish us luck! | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 209 Registered: 5-2004 |
BTW it has a model of an Alembic F2-B. I'd LOVE to be able to A/B that to see how close it comes! | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 210 Registered: 5-2004 |
Also BTW ... this wasn't the sound man's idea, it was something the guitarist and i have been talking about trying for a few years now. We run wireless and walk around the room to check the job the soundman is doing. Much of the time the bass isn't in the mix because it FILLS the room on it's own. Problem is if you're more then 10 feet from the cab the sound is muddy. And the guitar amp sounds good through the system but if you're in direct line of the speaker it'll saw your head off. Then you get all the bleed from the floor monitors. In some rooms mixing live can be a horror show. Trying this ampless aproach is not the soundman's idea, it's ours. Of course he LOVES the idea but it's not his. And to tell you the truth ... I'm sick of lugging around a 50lb head and 90lb bottom to every gig. A bass pod weights what ... 5lbs? Sounds good to me!! In any event it's what we're trying. I'll report back to the club once we get this into full gear and let you know how it's working out. But honestly my initial reaction to the sound i'm getting from the bass pod going direct into the poweramp section of my SVT into a 4X10 cab is WOW, i'm very impressed. Next step is in ear monotors and NO AMP. Can't wait to give it a try. | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 211 Registered: 5-2004 |
Oh and Joey, I hear with you're saying about some amps not sounding woofy ... but it depends on the room and application ... and the amp. Front loaded cabs, as most bass amps are now a days are "short throw" cabs. They're sound developes about 10 FT in front of them and then turns to rummble. It will sure shake the house but you lose note clearity. So even in big rooms my if i have too much volume on stage it adds mud to the mix. I can fiil most rooms with sound, the question is the quality of that sound once your more then 10 ft away from the amp. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 837 Registered: 10-2003 |
Raymond, You will quickly learn to hate electronic drums. They are a lot like a drum machine. If your drummer is loosey-goosey, they will sound exactly like a poorly programmed drum machine. If your drummer is excellent, they will sound exactly like a drum machine. Maybe you can talk him into a short screen... It sounds like things will work out well for you guys, largely because you're all willing to compromise for the greater good. John | ||
| hb3
Intermediate Member Username: hb3 Post Number: 175 Registered: 2-2005 |
Even V Drums sound like crap? Really? I'd like opinions on this. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 838 Registered: 10-2003 |
The issue for me isn't that they sound like crap, it's that they sound the exactly the same every time, especially the cymbals. There is a local drummer who uses them. He is an excellent technician and timekeeper, and loves them for their consistency, but I can't stand to listen to him play them. It is amazing the infinite subtle differences a drummer can wring out of a set of skins, that aren't available electronically, imho. I'm sure there are situations where electronic drums would be fine, but as a bass player I would rather interact with the real thing, tone- and dynamics-wise. John | ||
| paulman
Intermediate Member Username: paulman Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2005 |
John, I totally agree with the dynamic feel of acoustic drums. There is nothing like it, but you or I will be much more sensitive to this as musicians, and most "norms" won't hear the difference as they have another shot and beer (joke). However I have a set of V-Drums that sound great, I use them for recording sometimes. The main funciton of the V-Drums for me is so I can have the band over, and do headphone rehearsal. The loudest thing in the room are the vocals. Becuase of this, and the COPS FINALLY stopped visiting to say hi, and snarl! I would not use them live however, 'cept maybe for some spacy jam when unconventional sounds are needed. To address the equipment lugging issue, I bought two Bose PS-1's with bass cabs for the band, and we have not used anything else since (except the bass player, 4x18 B-52 folded horn subs...but he gets to move all those himself hahaha). They solved feedback problems, muffly vocals, and project the Further so transparently it's well, amazing (I no longer use a guitar amp). R*ck Tur**er (I hope that is enough) compared them to an effeciently packaged "wall of sound". I mean,my kid unloaded the PA and set it all up! That's how easy they are to use. | ||
| hb3
Intermediate Member Username: hb3 Post Number: 176 Registered: 2-2005 |
How come you wouldn't use the V Drums live? Can't you load up any sounds you want, including traditional drum sounds? | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 841 Registered: 10-2003 |
It is amazing how well the Bose system works. One band I played in set them up almost directly behind the vocalists and they wouldn't even begin to feedback. The guitarist in the band with the electronic drums guy plays through one and his tone is excellent. The sounds the V Drums make aren't the issue for me, it's instead the dynamics and subtle changes in tone and attack that they lack (to my ears). Maybe if you wanted everything to sound like a Steely Dan CD they might be perfect (if you used real cymbals and hi-hat). I simply find them not organic enough for my taste. Oh, the inhumanity! ;) If you're using them and like them, then more power to you! They would simplify everything about the gig, and I agree with Roger that the audience probably wouldn't even notice and/or care (much like they don't really care about anything but the singer and lead guitar)... John | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1686 Registered: 7-2004 |
Roger; Are you playing the Further directly into the BOSE array, or are you going through some kind of modeler or preamp first? Bill, tgo | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 212 Registered: 5-2004 |
I actually own a set of V-drums. I play 4 instruments and have giged with all of them. Many player know me as a keyboard player, some a drummer, some guitarist and some bass player. And I'm VERY spoiled with my equipment selection. I own a set of Pearl Session series acoustic drums and a set of roland V-drums - TD10 model. (Yesterday's BIGGEST V-Drum kit ... almost the same as todays TD-20's.) I fully believe V-drums (the higher level mesh pad ones) are great for live play and recording. I wouldn't use them for a JAZZ gig or a gig where the neuances (did i spell that right?) are important BUTTTTTTTT on a rock gig or any T-40 or GB gig I'd use them in a heart beat! My experience unfortunately is MOST drummers i've played with, even the ones with great chops, have little concept how to properly tune their drums so they're rich and sing. Most tune them too low and they sound like paper or have bad ringing. V-Drums are the answer to these poor souls! :-) | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 213 Registered: 5-2004 |
John ... What model V-drums is your drummer using? Like most touch sensitive SYNTHS you need to have the V-drums set up correctly to relay a true sense of dynamics. I spent weeks tweaking all the sounds on my TD-10. I created 4 kits that I'd put up to any well tuned acoustic drum kit. One is a rock kit with deep slightly muffled toms, one is a "power ballad" kit, same as the rock kit but with big reverb added, one is a fusion kit with a piccilo snare, 20" kick and smaller toms and cymbals and one is an all around LIVE sounding kit. It's really in the programing. My drummer uses my V-drums at rehearsal and LOVES them. HIS only two issues are a new set will cost him in excess of 4 grand and 2nd he doesn't like the look ... he loves big drums and shinny cymbals. But sound and DYNAMIC wise they're hard to beat. And again it depends on the kit. If your drummer is playing a TD-6 based kit or lower it's going to sound like a drum machine but if he's playing a TD-10, TD-12 or TD-20 they have the potential to deliver more feel then a lot of drummers have the potential of delivering themselves. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 843 Registered: 10-2003 |
Raymond, It's not my drummer that uses them. It's a guy in another band. I'm not sure which model they are, other than they were the most $$$ about 3 years ago. TD-10 sounds familiar though. The individual drum sounds are very believeable, but it's the consistency that I can't stand. As well, he has them setup exactly how he likes them, which to me is too, er, consistent. I think the dynamics must be happening inside his head. If it were a *loud* band that normally runs a lot of limiting on the drum subgroup, then I don't reckon you'd notice the difference out front. I haven't played in that type of situation for quite some time though, so I don't know if I would still hate electronic drums or not in that context. I'm fortunate to play behind a PA with lots of unused muscle for the the venues we play, and am blessed to play with a drummer who is really into changing it up all night long on an excellent sounding set of ancient well-mic'd Ludwigs. If you enjoy playing with the V-drums, then most definitely follow your muse. It is entirely within reason to assume that the subtle nuances I'm hearing are all between my ears as well. I am an idiosyncratic contankerous old bastich, somewhat set in my delusional ways and probably a pain in the arse to play music with, so take my opinions as possibly being on the extreme end of whichever end they happen to fall on this day. ;) I am, of course, quite interested to read about your experiences in making the transition to a backline-less operation. John | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 214 Registered: 5-2004 |
Well John ... it's sure a matter of taste. ALL musical decisions are. I know bass players who think the only bass worth playing is an OLD AMERICAN FENDER bass. The older the better. And of course we on this forum might disagree with that. In regard to V-drums ... as I said before it really is a matter of programing. TD-10's have positional sensing ... they sound different if you're buzz rolling in the center of the head and towards the side, just like acoustic drums. BUT they have 100's of sounds that don;t sound like LIVE ACOUSTIC drums. They sould like processed, in the studio drums. Limited, processed, "mic'ed," reverb, you name it. They don't sound acoustic on stage ... they sound processed. BUT if you're trying to get a great front end mix they CAN .... CAN sound like a perfectly tuned, mic'ed, and processed drum kit. And their PERFECTION takes away from the natural imperfection of a REAL kit. You'd be surprised how many big acts use V-drums live now. They have them built into acoustic drum shells and use either "smart trigger" cymbals that look acoustic or actual acoustic cymbals. The Trans Siberian Och. has always used just V-drums and they sound amazing live. PERFECT. Which again makes them sound a little unreal. Personally I went through great pains to make one kit that sounded LIVE. There's a little ring in the drums, not much in the way of processing, NOT perfect. And also keep in mind to pull off a great sounding live mix with V-drums you need a great sound system with highs, mids and subs and someone with EARS behind the board. Belicve it or not it's easier to mix them if you have a good system. I'm in the process of doing drum tracks in a major studio for a new original song writer. I auditioned with my Pearl acoustic kit but suggested my V-drums. He was a little afraid of them but after I played them for him he was sold. And in the studio it probably saved him 6 hours of studio time NOT needing to tweak, tape, muffle, and tune every drum. It was plug and play. Even the engineer who said "you've got to be sh-ting me" when she saw them was a believer when she heard the results. ANYWAY ... spent too much time on the topic. As you can tell I have a great opinion of V-drums. What I tell other drummers is think of them as a DIFFERENT drum kit. They ARE real ... but they're different. Just like an acoustic guitar is different then an electric guitar. Just like an acoustic bass is different from our Alembics. I believe it's the future of drums just like the electric guitar became far more popular then the acoustic. BUTTTTTTTTTTTT there will ALWAYS be room for the beauty of the acoustic instrument. The ROOT ... | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 849 Registered: 10-2003 |
Raymond, Start a V-drums thread and I'll bash the Bass Pod! (not really) FWIW, Will (the drummer I play with) used to do the ddrum-triggers-Roland thing, but ultimately decided he liked acoustic better. He also typically brings 3 snares to a gig. We musicians are finicky and no two of us are going to agree on everything. C'est la vie... Have you had a chance to gig without amps and such yet? Impressions? How does your chiropractor feel about losing a significant chunk of his business? ;) I'm curious how you end up mixing things in your in-ears, and how many separate mixes you have going. In my band we have the ability to have 4 discreet monitor mixes I think, and I'll probably end up sharing with the drummer. His mix is mostly bass with some guitar, vocal and kick. The major advantage I see to your fully-through-the-board setup is that recordings from the board will accurately reflect the mix in the room (EQ anomalies aside). No reason your band's next CD couldn't be live.  John | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 215 Registered: 5-2004 |
John I'm excited about in ear monitors. Haven't made the switch yet but tonight the band is having a business meeting to make plans and I believe we'll have them before our next gig in two weeks. We've all already said we want to do it so it's just making a solid game plan now. I'll definitely let you know how they work out. BTW we need at least 4 seperate sends so all 4 on stage can have a personal mix we're happy with. If I want my bass a little over everything else I should be able to have it without being a jerk to the others or screwing up the house mix. I'm very excited about the possibilities ... I hope it turns out good! I'll let ya know!! | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 216 Registered: 5-2004 |
Hey ... to come full circle back to the reason for this thread, the basspod. I went on line tonight using line 6's free softwear and gained access to their "sound vault" for the basspodxt. They supply free software you can use to do all the pod manipulations, create amp and sound combos and make your own collection. Then you can download your collection to this sound vault and upload patches others have created. Looks like at this time there's over 1700 free patches available. I've uploaded around 40 so far ... awesome patches other users have made. When i call them up on my laptop they control the pod and if I want them IN the pod it's really easy to transfer them into the internal memory. Regardless how well this turns out to be using it ampless it's an awesome TOY for bass players. I highly recommend them. You should hear what my Stanley Clark Standard sounds like through it! :-) |
