| Author | Message | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1001 Registered: 12-2002 |
Rockbassist asks in a previous thread..... (Message edited by keavin on December 13, 2006) | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 235 Registered: 5-2004 |
Listen and copy and lot of styles, (not just rock) practice your scales and play all the time. "Rock music" IMO is not a style that allows a bass player to grow as far as improve goes, for that you need to listen to jazz and fusion. But I think the most important advice I would give is to stick too it and keep your ears open. BIG EARS in improve are VERY important. Again ... just my opinion. Good luck and have fun! | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1002 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hey Rock Baby what i've learned over the yrs is jamming with records (learning bass solos)early mornings after a "POT" of coffee. sometimes the brain works better when fresh from a night of sleep.......also too try just jamming with the drummer as often as possible try a long solo during a drum & bass jam feed off your drummers chops/rolls etc...but most importantly JAM with a Drummer as (just the two of you)more frequently you will notice your self opening up with the little things & after 30 yrs of bassplaying it's not as hard as it seems! | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1174 Registered: 6-2002 |
Put on the radio, find a music station that you normally would NOT listen to, and play along with everything that comes along, by ear, and not using an amp. Put on a station that does classical music. Find a folk station. Find an anything-goes station. You are encouraged to doodle. Play too much. Play too little. The thing is to get a feel for the flow of music that you don't know beforehand. And you will probably find that you already know more about that than you might think. If I'm in a rock-related mood, I might think of putting on a Doctor Nerve CD. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 924 Registered: 10-2003 |
I used to play along with the TV all the time (I think lbpesq said he does likewise), which was great ear-training. As for learning to improvise, most folks will tell you to learn all your scales and modes up and down the neck. I think what they're getting at is knowing your instrument so well that you don't ever have to THINK while soloing. Nothing kills a good solo as effectively as trying to take it someplace it's not already going on it's own, imho. I think the key is to listen and play the intervals and phrases you hear in your head, rather than think about a half-diminished run beginning on the and of one. My solos still usually suck, so take this with a healthy grain or two of salt... John | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1862 Registered: 7-2004 |
Listen to lots of Grateful Dead. It worked for me. Bill, tgo | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 980 Registered: 2-2006 |
All the above post are contain great advice. The only thing I can add is learn your scales. Nothing worse than playing a major improv over minor chords. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 981 Registered: 2-2006 |
Keavins advie of jamming just bass and drums is one of my favorite ways of jamming. VERY COOL. | ||
| keavin
Senior Member Username: keavin Post Number: 1004 Registered: 12-2002 |
Just like an alembic can take you places any other bass cant... a kickass drummer will open up New world of chops in a Bassplayer!. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 983 Registered: 2-2006 |
Amen to that Keavin. I have a drummer that I jam with (been a while though) who is phenomenal. We’ll jam for hours straight with out even stopping. We’ll change grooves and time signatures and not even pause. A good drummer will improve your playing. | ||
| tom_z
Senior Member Username: tom_z Post Number: 479 Registered: 7-2004 |
Great advice from everyone. I'll add that in addition to being comfortable with scales (modes), get friendly with arpeggios. Improvisation can get a little dry and will sound like scales if that's your only focus. Phrasing with arpeggios will add nice color and lend strength to the chord patterns. Most importantly during any improvisational number - Listen Listen Listen! Peace Tom | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 985 Registered: 2-2006 |
Tom is right it should always be melodic. Think of it as singing with your fingers. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 3833 Registered: 6-2000 |
Henry Kaiser prescribed improvising 20 minutes a day every day. | ||
| chuck
Member Username: chuck Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2005 |
All of the advice above is great, my problem with improve/jamming had always been brain lock,lack of creativity or something like that.I have always played what I like to call !in the box!.That being just like its heard on the radio.Playing the Holiday Inn/Ramada clubs ment you had to play top 40 dance music in a familiar way.Club owners wanted the patrons dancing and sweating which ment more drink sales' more patrons, more money for the club,If the band Could not produce you were not booked again. I think I,m drifting off a bit but my point is If you learned this way its harder to get back to jamming. What had the greatest effect on my playing was the purchase of a good drum machine and a book on scales and finger exercise,s,Playing along with the dead also helped.You will find that when playing scales with the machine you will almost automaticly start to improv.And as Ollie says keep in meloidc. Hope this helps Chuck | ||
| echo008
Advanced Member Username: echo008 Post Number: 345 Registered: 2-2003 |
like has been suggested get a Drum machine and yes learn scales! I like to usually improvise with Pentatonic scales to get myself going when I do solo which is not often, (my solo skills are lacking as well). It takes alot of work and time to find your own style, just know that you are going to be discouraged but you will move past that if you stick with it. Listen to players who are better than you, listen listen listen that is important. Listen to horn solos and see what there doing. try and figure out what scales they are in play along to better develop your ear and sense of timing... even if it doesint feel like you are getting better you will be and it will come through eventually. - Tom | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 764 Registered: 11-2002 |
(in case anyone feels like they came in on the middle of the conversation, rockbassist (aka Kevin) asked a question over here.) Kevin, how much of your interest is in moving more into jazz, versus (for example) doing less structured extended jams in a rock setting? One of the things I find curious is the whole concept of studying, or teaching someone, how to be creative. At first blush, that just seems wrong - yet there are approaches that seem to work, to varying degrees, for some people. I like what 811952 (John) said above. Most instructional materials on improvising start you off with lots of review of scales, theory, getting to know your instrument thoroughly, and so forth. I have a couple of old books, "The Improviser's Bass Method" by Chuck Sher, and "Concepts for Bass Soloing" by Marc Johnson, and that's exactly how they start out (and go on at great length, more than I had the patience for...). But the real key seems to be, as John said, "to listen and play the intervals and phrases you hear in your head, rather than think about a half-diminished run beginning on the and of one." Yes, you have to know your instrument very well. Whether or not that requires exhaustive understanding of theory, being able to instantly play any named arpeggio in all possible positions, etc. is questionable in my mind. Certainly this stuff is important, and the more you know the better - but it can also be sort of a trap, because the whole art of improvisation is being able to get beyond this stuff, to the point where you can just play what you hear in your head, without thinking. I think of it a little like developing "muscle memory", where your fingers learn how to play some particular scale without thinking about which frets to aim for, except that you need to take that a couple of levels higher, so that you don't have to even think about the progression (and maybe not even know what it is). More like a muscle memory that extends directly from what you hear or imagine in your head, directly into the strings (in our case) without any conscious translations. I think that's why a lot of the suggestions here are along the lines of playing along with music you don't know. It frees you up from trying to follow a chord chart, dredging up all those rules you learned about how to transition from one to the next, which particular scales to play over each... you just listen, and do it. If you already have a decent familiarity with your instrument and want to work on improvising, then the last thing you should do is go back to studying scales. Maybe pick one and jam on it for a while, but try not to think about it. I recently watched a DVD that was largely an interview with Keith Jarrett, who may well have spent as much time as anyone on the planet thinking about improvisation. In the last few years, he has shifted his approach, for both practicing and performance. He used to improvise lengthy pieces (30-40 minutes or so), and now favors shorter things. When practicing, he says he now stops himself as soon as he finds he is playing an old familiar pattern, to force himself to break out of habits, like stringing together the runs his fingers know so well (how he can still find anything new after all this time is a bit of a mystery to me...). There's also a great comment on this stuff by Bill Evans in a short interview on one of his recordings, but it's a little too long for me to transcribe right now. The gist of it is that it does involve discipline and practicing, but the key is to get to the point where you can "just throw the switch" and it happens. Enough for now, I'm supposed to be working... -Bob | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 926 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Throw the switch" is exactly it! Many of the best players have a very tough time describing their best improvisational work. It's being "in the zone" and letting it happen. The times where I have done my best work (according to my colleagues) I couldn't even begin to tell you what I actually played. It just *happens* and I'm along for the ride (about once every six months or so these days!).  What Bob says about muscle memory is important as well. With enough time on the instrument, the fingers just seem to know where to go and how best to get there. I've had the discussion with many friends and relatives about the feeling of nailing a great solo, and how we consistently don't have much of a clue how the best pieces "got in there." My brother Pete explained that this was and is the catalyst for tragedy, citing how Charlie Parker spent the hours not playing trying to recreate that zone in his personal life with drugs and alcohol. I can only imagine how awesome that zone must have been when he was blowin' a tune. John | ||
| inthelows
Intermediate Member Username: inthelows Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2006 |
Jammings great, drummers are great, learning scales and riffs are great, diddo all the above. Set achievable goals and keep your sense of humor. Your mates will let go an occasional note into the outer limits as long as they know your getting your act together. Some artists prefer minors (keep it clean) for the sound and transition to major and vise versa. Stick with a style and become familar with where you can add to it and don't be afraid to let it rip. Then try something else. That is how we all learned at some point. With or without sheet music or radio or whatever, feel it and go for it(keep it clean). Very difficult being around a grump, still learning riffs or not. IMHO. NLP | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1086 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've always thought of music like food. I don't want to eat (your choice here . . .) every day, day after day. Chinese today. Steak and fries tomorrow. Gyros. Mex. Big breakfast. So, I DON'T want to play the same thing every day. The gig is a different cat, you've gotta play what got you hired. But for me, I like to move it around when I'm at home. AC/DC today. Western Swing tomorrow. Blues for a couple of days. The Natalie Cole big band stuff. Soul Music. You see where this is going. And the cool thing is you be amazed how certain 'trademark' things from one style drop into something else completely different beautifully. Goes without saying, gotta know your fingerboard, know several kinds of scales, be at home on the fingerboard. I listen to lots of classical, as the bass parts were written with as much care as the melodies . . . so much of popular music uses the bass just for embellished pedal points, it's amazing to hear what Mozart and Bach wrote for the deep end. If you're in a 'pipe organ' church, I LOVED to listen to the bass pedals parts in organ music. I like a Jeff Berlin suggestion: Play the vocal parts and melodies on the bass. This really opens up the fingerboard from a different direction. Plus you can occasionally double a lead riff and scare your guitar player! J o e y | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 928 Registered: 10-2003 |
Amen to that, J o e y! Get a copy of The Real Book and learn to play the head (melody) of every tune! Take turns with a buddy or 3 comping and playing the head and you'll develop a knack for making lines fall into place over a variety of changes. Of course, this is stuff I tried to be good about doing 30 years ago, and my jazz improv shows how that muscle has atrophied over the years..  Oh, and I'm not convinced that a good solo has to be *melodic* at all, but melodic will always work. John | ||
| george_wright
Intermediate Member Username: george_wright Post Number: 110 Registered: 3-2005 |
Several good suggestions here: drum machine, play-along-with-the-tv/radio, the Real Book.... Since---if you're reading this---you already have a computer, consider Band in a Box. (Disclaimer: I have no connection with PG Music, except for the fact that I send them money at upgrade time.) BIAB gives you the drum machine, plus the rest of the rhythm section. You get to play along with any tune you can either find or type in (you type in the chords by measure). If you just want a drum machine, you have more flexibility than you'd get with a drum-machine-only device. I downloaded the entire Real Book (albeit with total disregard for intellectual property rights) several years ago; it may still be available on the 'net---or maybe from me :-)---in BIAB format. When you're comfortable with a tune in one key, there are still eleven left, with only a few keystrokes. Try working through a tune in the circle of fifths. By the time you're done, you'll have it cold, and you'll be ready to improv over the chords. I've tried all this for saxophone improv, so I'm in a position to tell you that it helps. | ||
| alemberic
Junior Username: alemberic Post Number: 27 Registered: 6-2006 |
Speaking of Charlie Parker, I understand he once said something along the lines of "First you master your instrument, then you master the music, then you forget about all that...and just play." Knowing your fretboard backwards and forwards--yes; knowing (at least a little) music theory--yes; not getting so caught up in structure and form that you can't "cut loose"--you bet. My problem is trying to "just play" without devoting the proper attention to the first two items \clipart {biggrin} | ||
| alemberic
Junior Username: alemberic Post Number: 28 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeez--looks like I'd better master the clip art, too!! | ||
| alemberic
Junior Username: alemberic Post Number: 29 Registered: 6-2006 |
 | ||
| 88persuader
Advanced Member Username: 88persuader Post Number: 236 Registered: 5-2004 |
Of course once you're more comfortable with improv you'll need to know when to use your new skill and when not too. When improv is not placed correctly it's called "over playing!" Something I'm accused of doing far too often! :-) And there's also style ... Blues improv is expected in a blues song, jazz improve in a jazz tune, etc. Not a RULE but keeping the proper flow of a tune is usually a good idea. Another method of learning to improv or in effect solo is try copying lead guitar and sax solos as well as vocal lines. Good guitarist and sax players improv all the time. A few years ago I was in a slump so I wood shedded and learnt a few Weather Report albums from when Jaco was with them. Learning Jaco's bass parts will definitely open up your mind and force your fingers to get active. I'm no Jaco mind you however getting tunes like Teen Town and Bird Land under my fingers improved my playing in a major way. | ||
| alembic76407
Senior Member Username: alembic76407 Post Number: 482 Registered: 5-2002 |
Keavin, grow out your hair and start doing drugs it worked in the 60s | ||
| jorge_s
Intermediate Member Username: jorge_s Post Number: 106 Registered: 8-2002 |
Check out www.visionmusic.com | ||
| studiorecluse
Junior Username: studiorecluse Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2005 |
Keavin, I went to a couple of classes on improvising at Gerald Veasley's Bass Boot Camp last year, and had my head twisted sideways. I had always followed the common wisdom of learning all my scales, arpeggios, modes etc in every key and every position (not that I succeeded) and watch for the key and the changes. Then I took these two classes. The first was with Gary Willis (Tribal Tech) who said that there are three steps- hear it, sing it, play it. Hear it in your head, and we all do that. Then learn to sing what you think- harder than it sounds. Then learn to play what you hear and think. You (we) need to get to the point where we think a note and the finger reaches for it. The process he uses is outlined in his Ear Training book, and I have to say that it helps a lot. The other class was pretty much related. Basically, you probably have no problem humming (out loud or in your mind's ear) a wonderful and interesting solo, melody, or whatever. That is the creative part. Now learn to break through the barriers that separate what you feel from what your fingers do. Forget scales and modes, you already know what you want to say. Learn to play what you think. Also check out "The Inner Game of Music" by Green and Gallwey. I don't mean to get all philosophical on you, but the fact that you are reading this tells me that you are already very musical. So rather than get bogged down on learning tasks, learn your instrument, connect to it, and play from the heart. Cary | ||
| the_8_string_king
Advanced Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 246 Registered: 9-2005 |
You've got a lot of great advice here. I'll keep my offerings short. Assuming you haven't already done so, learn all 5 "CAGED" positions; learn all seven modes and arpeggios -with and without 7ths added. Learn the natural, harmonic, and melodic minors, and the major and minor pentatonics. This is, just of course, a start... but it is the foundation. As you learn/practice these things, CONSTANTLY VARY what you do. A good way is to explicitly identify and isolate specific things. For example, pick an arpeggio in a specific position, let's say a C major arpeggio starting with the root/C on the 8th fret of the low E. So you play C (on the E) E & G (on the A) C (on the D) E (on the G)... you play CEGCE. Now play it "up" and then back down... (CEGCECGE)... this is 8 notes (and then you're back to C -so you can play it over & over, repeating sets of 8). Now first, play the notes rhythmically equal -say, "all 8th notes". But Then, you could, say play the 1st note as a quarter note, and the next two as 8th notes (and repeat the pattern -keep it simple when you start. Or: you could have the 1st two notes be the 8ths, and then the next note be the quarter note; or: you could play a quarter, and then a set of triplets; or: a quarter followed by a dotted 8th and a 16th. Get the idea? There are many simple ways you can vary the arpeggio rhymthmically. If you take the time to implement this principle into your playing, it will soon become something you do automatically... you'll CHOOSE the specific little VARIATION of rhythm/relative note values... you'll have a vocabulary of rhythms, and you'll be able to switch from one to another with no effort. And you'll be able... you'll be INCLINED to NATURALLY improvise... to choose what you feel like at the moment, based on the moment. Of course, this was just one thing. Another thing would be to vary the order of the notes. For example, start on the root/C, but then skip the 3rd and go to G, and then "skip back" to the 3rd/E, and then skip over the 5th/G and go to the octave. This pattern would be CGECGEGCE (then repeat). Again, this is just 1 variation on 1 arpeggio in 1 position. Be scientific about it. It's simple. Listening and doing are essential, to be sure. But understanding it conceptually is also essential; and the fact of the matter is, it's actually simple, if you just take it one step at a time, in a simple and logical order. So just think about it, analyze it, and break it down. It's easier than people think... but you have to do it the right way. Start with understanding the basics thoroughly -and then identify simple variations that you can do by identify the most basic variations (which are variations in rhythm and/or sequence -of notes) and just familiarizing yourself with them. Play melodies you know well, but alter the rhythm -at first, be simple and consistent, not fancy. The point is to develop familiarity and a vocabulary. Experiment with deliberately going to a "wrong" note and then "resolving" to the right note. Another simple, great, basic tried-and-true exercise is just to practice your II-V-I arpeggios randomly in all positions, with/without 7ths, and vary the sequence and rhythm of notes. Regardless of what you do/what you come up with, it'll be a learning experience that'll make you a better player. Good luck with it. I really respect a man who's not afraid to ask for help/advice! | ||
| grateful
Intermediate Member Username: grateful Post Number: 180 Registered: 12-2004 |
Great advice Mark, improvisation is as much varying the notes as varying the tones. As a (possibly half-assed) analogy, I think it's a lot like riding a bike: until you've done it, the mere thought of it is terrifying. You have to take that "leap of faith". Mark | ||
| studiorecluse
Junior Username: studiorecluse Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2005 |
I almost forgot another good exercise for connecting your brain to your instrument. Think of some of the childhood tunes that you know, and I mean KNOW, like Mary Had a Little Lamb or Twinkle Twinkle. Learn all the ones you can think of in every location in every key. Over time, this will help to erase the barrier between you inner ear and your fingers. Don't get me wrong; learning scales, and arpeggios, and modes etc is all really useful, but it is part of the journey towards musicianship, not the destination itself. I doubt that (fill in name of favorite virtuoso) is actively thinking "ok, here comes a modulation into minor so I'll play Dorian", he is just playing where he knows he wants to take it... or it wants to take him. It should become second nature like scratching your elbow. You don't think: left elbow, half way down, then look at it, move right hand, position finger, move finger to scratch, etc. Rather, with your eyes closed, you move your hand and scratch you elbow. Playing should be like that. | ||
| hankster
Member Username: hankster Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2004 |
I agree with John - get a Real Book, and play all the heads. Then transpose them. Then, start mixing them up (it is astonishing how many places "cry me a river" or "honeysuckle rose" can fit - at least 4 different ways for every II - V change). But most of all, get gigs with horn and keyboard players who are more experienced than you are. The great advantage of being a bassist who can read is that for every 10 horn or keyboard players who can do the same, there is probably only one of you, so there are likely reading gigs to be had. Take advantage of that, and get out there and take chances. And listen, listen, listen. Good luck, and have fun! rick | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1882 Registered: 7-2004 |
Are bassists that can read really that rare? Almost all the guitar players I've ever met could read. Usually High Times, Playboy, Penthouse, and Marvel Comics. LOL Bill, tgo | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 935 Registered: 10-2003 |
Bill, You missed your true calling! You could be starving your 455 off doing standup in Odessa, Texas! ;) Yes, almost all guitar players IN CALIFORNIA can read. Here in the midwest the percentage might be a bit lower, and most of them drool on the pages (even the ones that aren't in Congress). ;) John | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 998 Registered: 2-2006 |
Careful Bill, you don't want to sound too "pompous" now do you. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 1887 Registered: 7-2004 |
There should always be a place for self-deprecating humor. Hempy Hanukah! Bill, tgo | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 773 Registered: 11-2002 |
(I always thought it was Hanukkah, but what's a k or two among good hemps...) | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 774 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now then, on this improvisational stuff, I read this book a while back that some of you might enjoy, "Effortless Mastery..." by Kenny Werner. It's not so much about improvisation, as about freeing your mind to become a better musician - or practically anything else, for that matter. I once described it to a friend as sort of a "Buddhist-light approach, which just happens to be written by a Christian"; it's also a fairly short (largish print on small pages, even if there are almost 200), easy read, with a bunch of great personal anecdotes that any musician would enjoy. Very down to earth, thoughtful without being overbearing, not too many big words or heavy concepts... and definitely worth a read. (maybe even a second read, I need to get my copy back...) | ||
| 5stringho
Junior Username: 5stringho Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2006 |
All excellent ideas about scales, modes, arpeggios, etc. and jazz. But if you want to have some improv fun in somewhat of a rock setting, listen to and play along with stuff from Gov't Mule, Widespread Panic, Moe., etc. Get your hands on some live stuff if you can. These guys carry the improv torch the Dead started. Dave Schools, the late Allen Woody, Andy Hess, Otiel Burbridge, these guys are all improvisational monsters!! They can give you a lot of ideas and inspiration. Have Fun!! Mike... | ||
| davr35
Junior Username: davr35 Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2004 |
Chase small woodland creature out of the yard with your bass. It's bigger than a stick and with scare them more. Use flint and roundwound strings to start fires just be careful you don't set the bass on fire. In a pinch you can use a bass as a center pole for a tent. It is fun an easy to improvise if you just put your mind to it. | ||
| paulman
Intermediate Member Username: paulman Post Number: 151 Registered: 2-2005 |
My best experience at improvising was when I went to an open stage (Mike, you know the one) and wrote my name on the list and what instrument I played. The guy walks up to the mike, looks down the list, picks a bass player, drummer, and two guitar players and says "you're on". I had never met any of these guys before (and a couple of them were in the same boat as I), and it forced me to play along to songs I had never tried to play before, or heard before in some cases. I loved it! In my band I constantly "ride the line". Of course this is due to my long-term Grateful Dead influences. Many other people on this post said it best...if you're thinking about it you're not improvising. Taking the mind and ego out of the equation (which I do, badly), and becoming a direct channel is the only way I can describe it. But if you can do that, all of a sudden you'll go "Where have I been the last 20 minutes" and "What was I playing?" and maybe a sudden body-chill rush while you're on stage. I love those feelings after a jam! | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 720 Registered: 6-2002 |
Rog, Yeah, I remember (and miss) that jam session. I love both of those feelings: the on-stage "zone" where the result is greater than the sum of our parts; and listening afterwards to the tapes (demos, MDs, etc.) to discover the occassional jem. I wish they came easier and more often Strech your listening habits, your hands, and your mind. Mike | ||
| studiorecluse
Member Username: studiorecluse Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bob, On your recommendation I picked up "Effortless Mastery..." WOW. What a great book. Thanks very very much. This guy totally has my number. My teacher of years ago always used to say "Stop thinking about what to play, and just PLAY." About sums it up. Check it out. Cary | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 814 Registered: 11-2002 |
Glad you found it helpful. I'm still trying to recover my loaned copy, I think someone else liked it as well :-) |
