| Author | Message | ||
| alembic_doctor
Advanced Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 278 Registered: 8-2002 |
Can anyone shed some light on this new law that has made everyone remove any tablature from their sites. I just went looking for some Kansas Tab and even Bassmasta.net is down. Now I'm all for buying music to support the artists. I rarely download mp3's. I only do that when I either need to learn a song I don't like or the album it was on is just not available. But, this thing with tablature is ridiculous. Talk amongst yourselves publicly. | ||
| glocke
Advanced Member Username: glocke Post Number: 202 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yeah, I noticed that awhile ago. I was looking for some tabs of dead tunes ar rukind.com. All the G. Dead tabs were still up, but everything that were cover tunes they did were gone.... | ||
| karl
Intermediate Member Username: karl Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hi guys, I work for a music publisher, so I have some inside knowledge of what's going on in this field. Bassically, according to copyright law, it's illegal to give away transcriptions, whether standard notation or tab, of any copyrighted material without the explicit consent of the copyright holder(s). In most cases, the copyrights are held by the labels/publishers, who will distribute royalties onto the artists/writers (after taking their cut, of course). Copyright law states that the copyright holder is entitled to receive a royalty for every single copy of the copyrighted song, whether a recording or a writen transcription (eg standad notation, tabs or even just lyrics) in circulation. This is why it's illegal to photocopy books of sheet music (or any books at all, basically), or make copies of CDs etc. These sites that offered free tabs of copyrighted material have always been doing so illegally - the diference now is that the labels have finally got the powers that be to agree to clamp down on them. The reason, I suspect, why The Grateful Dead's material is still available is that the band retained the copyrights to their own material and have stated that they are quite happy to let transcriptions be freely distributed. I realise that this new move will upset a lot of people who are used to finding tabs for free, but as a songwriter myself, I can understand the reasons behind it. Songwriters and composers invariably put a lot of effort and passion into their work, and it seems only right that they should be paid for it eventually if it turns out to be popular. I can recommend www.sheetmusicdirect.com as a vey good place to find tabs legally. Karl | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1369 Registered: 2-2006 |
I foound some great books and ordered them from Borders. The Bass White Pages of Tab being the newest. As for Christian Music http://www.1christian.net/guitar/ has tab and chord charts. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1370 Registered: 2-2006 |
If I can't find tab or music or charts I can always rely on "old faithful(s)", my ears. Thats the way we did way back in my High School days. OOh...ohhh "School Days", now that gives me an idea for a new song..ooohh....hmmmm but where have I heard that before.... (Message edited by olieoliver on May 27, 2007) | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1607 Registered: 3-2004 |
Part of the reason why tab started showing up is that people couldn't hear or read music as well as they could play it. Another reason is that the music industry has absolutely sucked at making transcriptions available. When tab started going, most of what came out in sheets or books were semi-accurate piano arrangements. Then there's the question of profits. Do you think any label is going to put out a book of Kiss tabs for some young throwback fan? No, they aren't. There's no money in it. While I appreciate the ownership of copyright, I don't like this. If the music industry was going to come out with an iTunes-like service for tab, then it would make sense. I could better accept selectively enforcing the copyright for anything that the owners would like to publish themselves. Either that, or working out a licensing agreement with one or more tab services so the players that are looking for help can still get it. | ||
| glocke
Advanced Member Username: glocke Post Number: 203 Registered: 9-2002 |
I dont like it either. It is a little too heavy handed for me. I have copyrighted songs out there, and could care less whether or not someone transcribes my bass lines.... | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1608 Registered: 3-2004 |
I just took a look at SheetMusicDirect. They have about 4K guitar tabs and 424 bass tabs. I did a quick perusal looking for a couple things and didn't have a great hit rate. If this is the best that's on offer, it's no wonder that individuals trying to help other individuals started writing and passing along tabs. Sure, it's better than nothing if you really need a tab (for $4 per tune), but that's about the best that can be said for it. | ||
| dtrice
Member Username: dtrice Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2006 |
I still don't understand the practical side of banning tabs. I understand the theory of property rights of songs, but I don't understand the harm in free tabs. How would you know you wanted to learn a certain song without having bought the CD first or paid to see an artist's show? We all know tab is never a sure bet to getting the correct parts, but it usually saves a lot of time. Banning free tabs won't stop people from learning others' tunes so what is the practical reason, other than the poor old record industry is not seeing profits like they used to. We all know the reason that the labels are not profiting like they used to is not due to free tabs. Ehh...well that's my $.02 . | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2404 Registered: 7-2004 |
Try this site. Bill, tgo | ||
| j_gary
Advanced Member Username: j_gary Post Number: 247 Registered: 6-2005 |
I think this stuff of sqeezing every penny you can out of something is conterproductive. If you make the information, or product more difficult to access, the less likey it will be dispersed. It's occures to me that half the success of the Beatles was due to the fact that their whole approach to marketing was free. Anyone who wanted to make a Beatle hat, pin, plate, you name it, was free to do so and did. Did it cost them money, yep. Did it help promote the band, I would argue yes, as they appear to have done okay for a group of street kids from Liverpool. | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 772 Registered: 2-2005 |
I was just hit by this as well. I have been trying to pick up a very fast run that is hard to hear in the recording. I tried to find a tab that might have the run but no luck. In this case the owner of the copyright does get payed as we play the song at gigs. There still is this site that has tabs on it though I don't know how complete it is. www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs Keith | ||
| alembic_doctor
Advanced Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 279 Registered: 8-2002 |
So then this poses a question; At what point will they throw you in jail for showing a friend how to play a song. Oh. and then what happens to cover bands who are playing in clubs and making money on playing other peoples music???? What if a frend came over and I played for him the new Maroon 5 CD and I don't have an ASCAP license. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I quit. Back to ear training 101. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2405 Registered: 7-2004 |
Doc wrote: "So then this poses a question; At what point will they throw you in jail for showing a friend how to play a song." I believe it depends on the song. Teach a Yanni song, go to jail! Works for me! LOL Bill, tgo | ||
| alembic_doctor
Advanced Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 280 Registered: 8-2002 |
Actually....... Does anyone know of any action committee or anything that might be challenging this. If so, I'd like to get involved. I think this is a load of hooey. I truly believe that having this information, freely available, fosters young musicians. And keeps us older ones from becoming frustrated beyond belief whenwe just want to figure out two or three measures of something. | ||
| elwoodblue
Intermediate Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 133 Registered: 6-2002 |
Can someone help clarify? What makes a "Standard" tune (e.g. Perdido) a standard? Is it after a given amount of time , or a general concensus that this a timeless tune? ...and does this only apply to jazz ; I can think of many Rock and Soul 'standards'. ...where do I send Micheal jackson's check when I show my son which order the E ,A and B7 go when playing 'Twist and shout'. AUM(copyright pending) | ||
| alembic_doctor
Advanced Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 281 Registered: 8-2002 |
Olie: ever notice how freely Christians give away the music and charts for their stuff. They want everyone to know and play their songs. I just got some new CD's from Desparation Band and Lincoln Brewster. They are Enhanced CDs and they have the charts for their music and even some instruction on how to play them. I guess we know where the real treasure is. | ||
| valvil
Moderator Username: valvil Post Number: 1020 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hi Doc, I am not sure about the US, but in Italy (I believe it is similar in the rest of Europe) a cover band, (or an original group) will hand a list of their set (with the authors listed) to the club owners. The club hands over the set lists nightly and pays a royalty fee (this varies from club to club) based on several factors to the local copyright collection society (SIAE in Italy, it would be Ascap or BMI here in US). The society then allocates the royalty collected from that club to the songs from its playlist database for that club. Now about the Tab law. This is not really about stopping you, the customer, from having access to Tab, or sheet music. This is more about the companies having to enforce protection of their copyright; if you do not do protect your copyright you can legally lose it; an unscrupolous person can take advantage of that and it's been done more than once; they could start making copies of your work for sale and argue that since you did not defend it previously it means it's not that important to you and should go into public domain, thereby making their sale of your work legit. Also, music companies don't like seeing sites who, sure, may be giving tabs away for free to you, but often are making money themselves because of advertising and other things that bring in money (like selling data that they accumulate through traffic generated on the site). That's not fair, they are making money on the back of other people's work without their consent. And even if you are totally losing money while giving away tabs, it's still not legal, and the copyright protection issue still arises. What I'd like to see is the Music companies themselves offer this service, either by legally licensing it or by having it on their sites. I'd like it to be free, because I think it's great advertising but I'd be willing to pay a fee of a few bucks a year for the service even though I'm trying to read more music and less tabs. Valentino | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1609 Registered: 3-2004 |
In the US, at least locally, the bar owners pay annual licensing fees to ASCAP in order to have live entertainment. No idea how universal the participation is, only that a couple guys I know fairly well do this. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1372 Registered: 2-2006 |
You're right Doc. You can find tab for Christian music almost every where. Then again it's more about the message not the $. Bob's correct about bar owners and ASCAP royalties. But I'm not sure how many actually do "pay up". | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1187 Registered: 9-2002 |
Another thing brought home to me by living in Nashville and being waist-deep in songwriters: This Napster era changed everything. Monies to the music industry across the board for any given artist have shrunken dramatically. While the major labels can sustain themselves and the artists can make a fortune from their live dates alone, songwriters are very dependent on the various royalties and fees, with no other way to make the living they used to make in this day of non-existent intellectual property rights. That's why tab postings are vanishing. Would YOU want to give away your income? I never understand why people are so quick to steal music of artists they adore: Would you pickpocket their wallet if you were backstage with them? If you're taking music for free WITHOUT permission, that's exactly what you're doing. How are tabs any different from buying the sheet music? J o e y | ||
| grateful
Advanced Member Username: grateful Post Number: 210 Registered: 12-2004 |
IMHO, tabs are like reverse engineering, which is perfectly legal (the richest man on the planet made his money from buying a "reverse engineered" version of CP/M which was renamed MS-DOS! Where are Digital Research today?). I blame the "Music Business", which has almost nothing to do with music (paraphrasing Garcia). Mark | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 773 Registered: 2-2005 |
As far as ASCAP goes they act much like the mob in my opinion. They send paid informants into clubs that have music and are not already paying them. They then give them the option of paying up back fees and buying an annual license. If the answer is no go to court. In some cases around here this has included performances of totally original music by the composer. The response from ASCAP was prove it in court and we'll make sure you lose. We have also had several cases of small coffee shops who have an acoustic player every couple of months get shaken down for annual licenses as ASCAP and BMI have no by the performance option. In these cases the shops just quit having music altogether as they can't afford the annual fees. I agree the copyright holder deserves to be paid for their work but there also need to be the realization that not everybody is a big time operation with loads of money. I've also seen some reports that indicate much of the ASCAP/BMI fees stay with them so who interest do the really look out for? Keith | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1373 Registered: 2-2006 |
While cooking breakfast this morning I was in a rather good mood and caught myself singing, "Can't Get Enough", by Bad Company. So I have but one question.......where do I send the check?  | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 774 Registered: 2-2005 |
Makes me wonder if the kitchen staff at a restaurant I used to go to would have to pay ASCAP fees. Back in the 80's we would eat at the Wool Growers Hotel dinning room in Los Banos. The three women cooks in the kitchen would whistle songs together that you could hear in the dinning area. Since we were paying for the meal, the cooks were getting paid and they were damn good entertainment does this constitute a paid performance? Keith | ||
| rraymond
Advanced Member Username: rraymond Post Number: 257 Registered: 6-2002 |
"Who Are The Brain Police?" Damn, another royalty payment! | ||
| zach
Junior Username: zach Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2007 |
I just think taking down tabs is stupid since its very rare for one to be 100% correct anyway! Are they next going to make you pay a royalty if your song's influenced by another artist? If so I owe quite a bit of money to the allman brothers for every time i've told my guitarist to throw in an allman like twiddly bit. | ||
| zach
Junior Username: zach Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2007 |
I just think taking down tabs is stupid since its very rare for one to be 100% correct anyway! Are they next going to make you pay a royalty if your song's influenced by another artist? If so I would owe quite a bit of money to the allman brothers for every time i've told my guitarist to throw in an allman like twiddly bit. If they really want to stop tabs then they should produce an alternative, and so far the only tab books i've found are for the biggest bands such as red hot chili peppers and led zep. | ||
| ndr_bass
Junior Username: ndr_bass Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think this is very short-sighted by the industry, not to mention greedy. Ultimately, imitation is one of the main drivers of the music world. Radio play, and perhaps now the internet, may start the process of building an audience, but it's the cover bands that sustain it. TABs and transcriptions promote the spread of your music and don't have much monetary value until a significant threshold of popularity is reached. Without cover bands, that threshold is only attainable by a very few well promoted acts. It seems disengenuous then to charge for the right to help popularize and therefore increase the value of the music. Not to mention hypocritical...how many bands don't start by doing covers? Of course, the bands have very little control of this copyright lunacy. To me this is a case of an industry eating its young. (Message edited by NDR_bass on June 04, 2007) | ||
| chuck
Intermediate Member Username: chuck Post Number: 135 Registered: 3-2005 |
"An industry eating its young." Very well put. Chuck | ||
| dtrice
Member Username: dtrice Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2006 |
If I tab out my own music you know so I can always remember a song and put in on the internet and the relearn my own old tunes from it, do I sue myself because I infringed on my own copyright? The good thing is that banning tabs will not make all tabs disappear, just a little harder to find. We'll just have to continue to sidestep the industry. It is amazing that the music industry doesn't represent musicians' interests. So why do we deal with these guys? Anybody here want to start an independent label that actually works with the artist(s)? |
