| Author | Message | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1374 Registered: 2-2006 |
Sorry guys I'll keep it to music from now on. (Message edited by olieoliver on May 29, 2007) | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 549 Registered: 3-2004 |
Olie, Thank you for expressing that so clearly. Thank you also to all the men and women who volunteer for the armed forces and sacrifice to serve the country and the world at large, | ||
| the_8_string_king
Senior Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 623 Registered: 9-2005 |
Hmm. That's quite a package deal, Olie. I have great respect for A LOT of the people who serve in the military... my father was career Army -he served in Viet Nam- and my uncle also served in Viet Nam. And I have the utmost respect, in particular, for the Veterans of WWII. I tend to think or BELIEVE that a large percentage -HOPEFULLY the majority- of people serving in the military are good people who fit the profile of people who are risking their lives for freedom, the rest of us, etc. Unfortunately, it is clear that there are A LOT of bad apples out there. I like to think they're a small amount... but there's some really disturbing evidence to the contrary. I recall recently (past couple weeks) seeing a survey indicating a shockingly large amount of soldiers (40%?) indicating that "non-combatant civilians don't necessarily deserve to be treated with dignity", and a large percentage of soldiers indicating they'd help cover up atrocities done by fellow soldiers. I come from a military/police family. And I know a lot of things that are well-known to others from such backrounds. The sad truth is that, while there are a lot of truly wonderful & exceptional people who are risking their all for freedom, apple pie, etc... while a lot of people in the military represent the best of us... there are a lot of people who represent the worst of us -to be sure. Saying this won't win me points in a popularity contest... but it needs to be said. I'm not at all convinced we're living in the "greatest country in the world"... at one point in my life, this was arguably the case... it certainly is NOT the case now. We are certainly living in one of the most deluded countries in the world. I tend to BELIEVE that the majority of people serving in the military now genuinely believe they are fighting for freedom... but, while they're over there "fighting for freedom" or whatever they're actually doing... freedome is being dismantled as we speak... as you read this. I consider the "President" and our political "leadership" to be an INFINITELY greater threat to freedom than Al-Quida. This is NOT to say I don't consider them a threat... I DO. It's simply to say that the threat from Al-Quida pales in comparison the the threat imposed by the like of the traitors that are currently in political power in our country. Their list of transgressions is as long and well-known as it is obvious. The two fastest growing industries in this country are the prison industry and the debt industry. Why doesn't our "government" do anything about it? Well, amoung other things, because it has a vested interest in it... it profits from it. For decades, the American "government" has spend as much or more money trying to imprison people like me and Bill and Flax and MANY OTHERS for excercising our rights... to smoke a little pot, for example. I currently can't do this anymore... but that's not the point. When George Bush talks about "freedom" he's a disingenuous little scum-sucking weasel. He's a liar. George Bush has done more -INFINITELY MORE- to harm freedom than Osama Bin Laden did -or ever could do. Osama's victory(ies) can only come through the default of American "leaders"... who for decades have been more worried about depriving harmless smokers of their rights, and imprisoning productive patriotic citizens in jail -than in protecting them and everybody else from the likes of Al Quida. I'm scared of Osama Bin Laden... but just a little. I'm VERY SCARED of George Bush -and Hillary Clinton as well... THEY'RE the ones who have screwed up this country. They -and their ideology- are responsible for bringing things to this point. If all the money and resources wasted on putting pot-smokers in jail was spent on actually protecting freedom and American lives, and if the U.S. wasn't complicit and directly responsible for well-known mass scale violations of human rights in the Middle East (and all over the world) we wouldn't be dealing with all this right now. This is "the chickens coming home to roost." Remember the Iranian Hostage crisis? I do. It started because the CIA had been propping up the "Shah of Iran"... for some time. Our country was responsible for sending the CIA over there to teach his cronies how to torture and terrorize the people, and keep them "in line." The Iranian people knew this. Even if Americans CHOOSE to be oblivious. And we've been doing this for decades, all over the world... in Iran, Iraq, Angola, Saudi Arabia, Nicaragua, El Salvadore... just to name a few. And the U.S. is (obviously) highly involved and complicit in the pervasive and gross atrocities committed by Israel. Again, this is common knowledge, and plain fact. Can anyone blame the Iranians for their response? How? On what grounds? The fact is, America was largely responsible for their "Islamic Revolution." And we all know we were ARMING SADDAM. The crimes he was eventually hung for... they were committed while he was "our boy." Again, this is plain fact, as undeniable as the sun in the sky. The fact is, there is a long list of Americans who deserved (and still do deserve) to be hung with him. It gives me NO PLEASURE to say this. But it needs to be said -as much, if not more, than plattitudes about supporting the military. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for what's happened over there. We are responsible for 9/11. We brought it on ourselves. We made it inevitible. It came as no surprise when I saw it on TV. The thing I remember feeling is surprise that it took so long. And it is equally inevitible that there will be more... a lot more... until we identify and address the policies that are responsible for these things. I also must take issue with your characterization of people burning the American flag as unthinking and ungrateful. It is certainly possible (and likely) that SOME people fall into this category. But I know plenty of people who support it in principle as a protected form of free expression, and also as a way of drawing attention to the horrible atrocities committed by the American "government." Unthinking and ungrateful? No, that is not necessarily the case. I would have to say that my experience is the opposite extreme. I've met two people that have burned flags, and they were both extremely intelligent and patriotic people. They were NOT in any way unthinking, nor ungrateful. It is important that we all respect the sacrifices of people who risk their all to protect freedom; but it is AT LEAST AS important that we respect people and efforts that PREVENT the needless sacrifice of these people. If there were more people burning flags -for the right reasons- and more people engaging in intelligent discourse about the many valid reasons for burning the flag... maybe our military personel wouldn't have even been their wasting their lives in the first place. It's all such a needless waste. Their sacrifices are so totally needless. That is the great tradgedy. Let's make sure we strive to become and/or continue to be conscious... so that we can minimize future tradgedies. Take care, folks, I wish you all the best. And to all the well-meaning folks in the military... you DO have my utmost respect and support. But even more, you have my resolve that I don't want to see you dying and sacrificing pointlessly -because of obliviousness and stupidity on the part of our people and our "leaders. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2408 Registered: 7-2004 |
See my personal quote in my profile. Bill, tgo | ||
| j_gary
Advanced Member Username: j_gary Post Number: 248 Registered: 6-2005 |
Mark, it's obvious you put some time and thought into your post, and your make some valid points. These types of dicussions can be difficult, painful and perhaps neccessary. I don't pretend to know or think that the "leaders" of the U.S.A. are always angels. But because of the many souls who have paid dearly for our right to sit here and type without fear, I will never accept the burning of an American flag by anyone other than a combat veteran. They have earned the right, while it's just handed to us. While the U.S.A. can be a bully, no one has done more good for so many. If the savages are angry at our leaders, then fly their sorry asses into the buildings of those who are responsible, why murder innocent civilians? Aw shoot, it's an endless chicken or the egg debate. Today is about honoring those who did the heavy lifting so that we could run our mouths. To all those who have served, I am deeply grateful and say thank you. While America is not perfect, most want to come here, few want to leave. | ||
| the_8_string_king
Senior Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 624 Registered: 9-2005 |
I agree with most/much of what you say... and appreciate your intelligent and level-headed response. And I DO most certainly respect those who have done the "heavy lifting"... so I can run my mouth. I hope we all will do as much as they can to respect the sacrifices they make -and to, as much as possible, prevent/minimize the need to make such sacrifices in the first place. An "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." I would prefer to see as many as possible of the sacrifices our military make be necessary "ounce of prevention" sacrifices... rather than unnecessary "pound of cure" sacrifices. I can think of no better way to honor our soldiers than to make sure that the sacrifices they make ARE necessary sacrifices... rather than unnecessary wastes of lives and potential that result from obliviousness and short-sighted political policies. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1020 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm with Bill on this one. John | ||
| the_8_string_king
Senior Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 625 Registered: 9-2005 |
Me too! I love that quote, Bill. And I saw it long before today. Have you seen mine? I'm guessing you'd be able to peg the source. | ||
| tbrannon
Senior Member Username: tbrannon Post Number: 443 Registered: 11-2004 |
My hats off to all those who have served- past and present. Some here might not agree with the cause, but the committment and price paid by those we're honoring is without question. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1021 Registered: 10-2003 |
"My hats off to all those who have served- past and present. Some here might not agree with the cause, but the committment and price paid by those we're honoring is without question." True words. John | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2410 Registered: 7-2004 |
Mark: Actually, I can't place the source, so I googled it - and came up with .......... your Alembic profile! Mine is actually two different quotes. The second, about the flag and the Constitution, I got off of a bumper sticker. The first, which is my personal motto, is from one of my all time favorite films, "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington", the Frank Capra film with Jimmy Stewart. A great film that Rove, Cheney, and W should be forced to watch. Toby: very well said. And I'm reminded of something Michael Moore said in his 911 movie, paraphased it went something like this. "The agreement we have with our fine men and women in the armed forces is that they are prepared to give their lives to protect us. Our part of the bargain is that we will never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary" I take no issue with how the military has lived up to their end of the deal over the course of this nation's history. It is the failure of government to hold up its end of the bargain that I find unfortunate, to say the least. Back in '86, having just graduted from law school, I visited D.C. with a friend. I became very emotionally moved at the Vietnam memorial. A veteran came over to comfort me and asked if I was a veteran of the war. I told him I was a veteran of the war against the war. We looked at each other and strongly connected as we realized that 15-20 years earlier we probably would have been enemies, but now we both could undrstand the other and that we were both victims of the times. It would be nice if people could actually learn something from history, wouldn't it? Bill, tgo | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 501 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think we probably need to take this offline - I see this evolving into a very passionate political discussion. I have some very different thoughts than Mark's based on my three tours/trips to the Middle East (including Baghdad last year), eighteen months in Korea (where I am currently serving), short trips to Europe, etc. Suffice to say I disagree in the main with many of Mark's points, though his positions on some issues are valid as far as I can tell. If anyone wishes to discuss this further, email me. To all veterans, past and present, I hope this Memorial Day has been a time of reflection, remembrance, and most of all of honoring our war dead, past and present. Alan | ||
| applejuice
Member Username: applejuice Post Number: 100 Registered: 1-2006 |
It's unfortunate that this thread has turned political, it could have been a good thing. Could things be kept neutral around here please? | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2411 Registered: 7-2004 |
Actually, I'm impressed with the restraint being shown. Isn't the "town square" where all viewpoints can be freely expressed and discussed with respect and civility what this country is supposed to be about? As for flag burning, I remember from my Boy Scout days that if a flag becomes worn, damaged or even if it merely touches the ground, it is supposed to be burned. Am I remembering this correctly? Bill, tgo | ||
| the_8_string_king
Senior Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 627 Registered: 9-2005 |
Unfortunate? Could have been a good thing? That's silly talk. Neutral? What does that mean? I appreciate the intelligent and civilized thoughts of the other posters. Take care, gang. | ||
| 2400wattman
Advanced Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 392 Registered: 11-2005 |
Bill, Even though this is a Miscellaneous posting section, I thought that it was understood that these discussions would not take place here. Actually, I could be wrong on this but I thought that Alembic did not want these subjects (political, religous, etc.) posted here. I'm in favor of it as these are touchy matters and the vast majority of the time they separate and segregate. This is not what I'm here for and this is not what has drawn everyone else here. However, this is a free country and I won't tell anybody what they can or can't discuss. So if this thread continues I won't comment any further. BTW Bill, you are correct about when the flag SHOULD be burned. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1472 Registered: 6-2002 |
IIRC, the accepted tone of discussion is that of a friendly gathering in a family living room. We should consider ourselves guests of the Wickersham household, and behave accordingly. To me, "restrained" means no name calling. | ||
| applejuice
Intermediate Member Username: applejuice Post Number: 101 Registered: 1-2006 |
Unfortunate- this is not a political thread, and should have remained. Could have been a good thing- a salute to veterans, not to criticize our nations government. Neutral- not everyone agrees with what you said. I also appreciate intelligent and civilized thoughts, but this is not the place to be doing it. Anytime something that has to do with the military comes up in this forum is not the correct time, either. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1475 Registered: 6-2002 |
Those in power want people to think that patriotism is not a political issue. And perhaps it shouldn't be. But who's confusing the issue? | ||
| the_8_string_king
Senior Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 628 Registered: 9-2005 |
Joe, this most definitely started as a political thread. The assertion that "we're still the greatest country in the world" (or whatever the precise verbage -if I'm off a little) is clearly a political statement. The statement explicitly makes a comparison between our country (and therefore, the political system -and the two are inseparable... be clear on that) and the other countries in the world. This is NOT "unfortunate." What IS unfortunate is that someone who is fighting to protect the right to civilly discuss such extremely important issue would regard it as "unfortunate." Censorship IS an unfortunate thing. Now let's be clear, I'm not saying nor implying there is censorship here. First of all, this is a private forum, and those who provide/maintain this PRIVATE forum therefore have the right to have any standards they choose... period. So let's be clear on that. But censorship DOES exist, and it is on the rise all over the world. Here is just one link full of examples -for any who would care to look: http://pcwatch.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html Censorship is a devastating thing for many reasons. It undermines, circumvents, and destroys communication. It suppresses and distorts the truth -and strives to prevent people from having access to the truth. The root of censorship is the fear of discussing ideas, of having a fair exchange. Now again, to be clear, I'm not saying this is the case here. It may or may not be... I don't know enough to say. Some people consider some topics inappropriate in some venues; this is not, in and of itself, unreasonable, and it does not necessarily mean one advocates censorship nor fears free exchange of ideas. So let's be clear on this, too. But to get back to the beginning, this most definitely started as a political thread. The statement "we're still the greatest country in the world" (or whatever) is in FACT a HIGHLY political statement... and one that begs a response. There are a LOT of people out there who could conceivably be HIGHLY OFFENDED by the statement. Is any of this "unfortunate?" Not in my opinion. I appreciate Olie's sentiment, and his expressing it -even though I disagree with some of it (as I also agree with some of it). I submit that almost anything of value that anyone says implicitly has philosophical implications... metaphysical, epistemological, ethical, political, aesthetic, and psychological implications. This is reality. It's unavoidable. It's not something to fear, or deny, or to run and hide from. It's something to celebrate, and appreciate... and to handle responsibly and civilly. And I think the overwhelming majority of us do that well the overwhelming majority of the time. It's a good thing. It's an important thing. I'd urge you to re-evaluate your statement "could have been a good thing -a salute to veterans, not to criticize our nations government," Joe. I DO salute our veterans. And that's part of why we need to criticize the government. Our "government" has made a monumental blunder that has needlessly wasted the lives of a large number of veterans. Based on a deliberate, calculated, and proven lie -a fabrication between Bush, Blair and others that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. To serve as an alleged justification for an invasion that has now produced the worlds biggest producer of terrorists. This is one of the biggest and most obvious foreign policy blunders in the history of this country. It's like the sun in the sky. And it needs to be said. Our veterans deserve better than to ignore and deny it. They do. Criticizing the government when it does bad things is precisely one of the most important things veterans are fighting for; criticizing the government which is responsible for this travesty does NOT dishonor them... precisely the opposite. As far as "neutral" being "not everyone agreeing with what I said"... this doesn't make any sense -as far as I can see. And it's unclear why one would desire/advocate "neutrality" in this context -in any event. Finally, look at your last statement. "Anytime something that has to do with the military comes up in this forum is not the correct time, either." Is this "neutral?" (That's a rhetorical question). Is it now your place to determine/decide "the correct time?" Is this "neutral." Here you are accepting that "things having to do with the military" are "coming up" here in this forum... but I/others aren't supposed to respond? Apparently. Think about it. What you've said is NOT neutral. In fact, it is obviously and highly biased. Everything I've said here has been a civilized, thought-out, leveled, and appropriate response to the initial POLITICAL post. That is NOT unfortunate. It IS unfortunate that some regard it as such -for unconvincing reasons- and it would be unfortunate if we either could not have such discussions, or felt we needed to censor ourselves from having them. Take care folks, best wishes to you all. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 502 Registered: 11-2003 |
Again, contact me via email if you wish to discuss further. Alan | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 660 Registered: 12-2004 |
I'd like to apologize to the group for participating in the continuation of this very unfortunate discussion. I retract my remarks. (Message edited by byoung on May 30, 2007) | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1022 Registered: 10-2003 |
This thread did begin with a political bent, though most likely that was unintentional. I think civil discourse about it helps remind us both who we are and how other people may see us, and provides another window into our values and how they may affect others. That's not a bad thing, imho. None of this discounts the honor and memory of the sacrifices made by all who serve with the goal to make the rest of our lives better. It's exactly the cause they have and are serving (and dying) for. Regardless of how I may view past/present/future leadership of the USA handles our foreign or domestic policies, the men and women who serve in our armed forces have my deepest support. I feel I have an obligation to not put them at risk on my behalf if it can be avoided. To those of you who serve, thank you. John Maybe this forum needs a "basement" where we can discuss contentious issues (and blow off some steam or lay it all out) and keep them out of the friendlier, more useful areas! | ||
| the_8_string_king
Senior Member Username: the_8_string_king Post Number: 629 Registered: 9-2005 |
"Mark, With all due respect, I think you should end this thread. It isn't constructive, isn't appropriate, and seems quite ad hominem." Opinion noted -although I disagree. I feel it is constructive and appropriate. And there is no ad hominem anywhere here -neither in word nor intent. "I do not consider, for instance: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: When George Bush talks about "freedom" he's a disingenuous little scum-sucking weasel. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- or -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: We are responsible for 9/11. We brought it on ourselves. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To be civilized or appropriate responses to "Happy Memorial Day." " Neither do I. But that's NOT what they were responses to. They were responses to the profoundly political -and arguably highly offensive- claim that this is "still the greatest country in the world." In that context, they were an appropriate and accurate response -IMO. "On the censorship issue: this is a private forum, you have precisely zero right to say anything at all here." Absolutely true... of course, the same goes for you, me, Olie, and everyone else who is a guest here. "People were asking you to be polite" No, that's NOT what they were asking. Don't take my word for it, you can re-read all the posts that were not edited. It is very rare that anyone has cause to suggest I be polite or more polite; it's my nature to be polite. "and frankly, I think you should apologize publicly for attacking Olie." Accusation noted... but since there WAS NOT any attack (at least by me)... as such, there isn't any to apoligize for. That's all, folks. I'm not going to add any further thoughts, I've said my piece. And I stand by what I've said. I respect you guys (and gals), and I wish you all well, each and every one of you. And again, I do respect the veterans who have found to protect and preserve freedom. And I do what I can, in my own way, on my scale, in the ways that I can -to honor their sacrifice. Take care gang. Best wishes. Sincerely, Mark | ||
| rraymond
Advanced Member Username: rraymond Post Number: 261 Registered: 6-2002 |
While the debate raged on, we BBQ'd some chicken, had cranberrie cole slaw, drank beer and played croquet. Me sizing up a shot:  The enthusiastic crowd (my nephew-in-law):  I hope everybody had a great weekend! | ||
| applejuice
Intermediate Member Username: applejuice Post Number: 102 Registered: 1-2006 |
Mark, email sent. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 2412 Registered: 7-2004 |
I know there are many members of this forum who live in countries other than the United States. I'm curious if they agree that the U.S.A. is "the greatest country in the world"? (We do have Alembic here, so I guess that gives us a leg up). More seriously though, history is rampant with nations declaring they are the best, they are God's favorite, etc. Personally, I was taught at an early age that talk is cheap. What makes a country great takes more than shouting it the loudest. There are certainly some great things about the U.S.A., but there are other things that I'm not as comfortable with. We call ourselves the "Land of the Free", yet, with only 5% of the world's population, we are home to 25% of the world's prison population. Yesiree, when it comes to putting people in cages, we're number one, and number two has been left in the dust. I see the lack of health care that afflicts the economically disadvantaged and see other nations that provide universal health care for the citizenry. I see a public school system that has been on the decline for most of my adult life, while a nation like Costa Rica has a far higher literacy rate. I see that the U.S.A. is second only to Latvia as having the highest infant mortality rate among developed nations. I see a natural disaster of epic proportions devastate New Orleans and areas of the Gulf Coast with only a modicum of aid provided to the victims. Am I unpatriotic because I don't close my eyes to these facts and scream out "We're the best!"? I love my country. As an attorney with my undergrad degree in Political Science, I am in awe of the Constitution, the principles this nation was founded upon, and the progress that has been made in the 231 years since our birth. I fear that too many people in this land take things for granted and don't understand that the cost of freedom in continual vigilance. I applaud my country when she is right, but I will never shy away from calling her on the carpet and attempting to fix things when she is wrong. Bill, tgo | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 1377 Registered: 2-2006 |
I was intending on straying away from this can of worms I unintentionally opened. But I feel I must clarify my original statements. First off no apology is needed from Mark for I never felt that I was being personally attacked and I was never insulted by anything Mark said. Secondly my statement was miss stated, what I should have typed was, “I feel that I live in the greatest country in the world”. This would be the same as me stating that I think the Dallas Mavericks are the greatest basketball team in the world. This would relay it more as my opinion than as me stating it as a fact. And to everyone here I have nothing but the greatest love and respect, and I refuse to get angry with any of my brothers or sisters here. Now may I ask a favor? Considering that I started this thread may I request that we close it? Peace to all and lets enjoy each other while we can. Olie | ||
| grateful
Advanced Member Username: grateful Post Number: 212 Registered: 12-2004 |
I've refrained from posting on this thread but must say I'm super impressed at the restraint, courtesy and good manners displayed in discussing such a contentious issue (on which I'm saying nothing!). Well done, this sure is the greatest (international) on-line forum. Mark (Message edited by grateful on May 30, 2007) | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1023 Registered: 10-2003 |
rraymond - Looks like a day well spent! Good company, too! John | ||
| rraymond
Advanced Member Username: rraymond Post Number: 263 Registered: 6-2002 |
John, it was a great day. It was one of those simple pleasures, kind of days. It was funny, too, being that none of us had played croquet in years. I'm sure a few rules were bent! Reid | ||
| joram
Member Username: joram Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2004 |
After reading Bill's post, I somehow feel obliged to react. Like Bill, I am in awe of the Constitution and the principles the nation, which is called "the United States of America", was founded upon. I also do feel, however, connected to those who sense that contemporary American international politics have much (at least in form) in common with imperial politics through history, examples of which could be Mesopotamian or Egyptian scriptures. I'm sorry I can't come up with direct quotes, but I can tell you I found the articles I've read quite convincing. With this post I have never meant to bring up any "anti-American" sentiments, nor did I mean to stir any among you, both American and "foreign". Just my two (euro-)cents. Joram | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1480 Registered: 6-2002 |
Joram, Don't forget our own (Dutch) imperial politics 1600-1950. The struggle for independence that led to the formation of the Dutch Republic was a great inspiration for the formation of the USA, and so the "VOC mentality" that Balkenende wanted to promote only last year is right at the heart of the USA. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1029 Registered: 10-2003 |
I believe that no matter what your politics or beliefs, we are all seeking pretty much the same things in life. Those would be: security, sustenance and happiness. The things that separate us are often the most irrelevant. We are all far more alike than we are different. It was good for Olie to have started this most-worthwhile (and civil) dialogue, even if (or because) it did go somewhere unexpected.  John |
