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Alembic Club » Miscellaneous » Archive: 2005 » Archive through June 03, 2005 » 2003 Archive » Archive through May 12, 2003 » The bass-player « Previous Next »

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Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Advanced Member
Username: palembic

Post Number: 365
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 4:53 am:   Edit Post

Brothers and Sisters
I should post this at the thread "what the bass-player do" but (***sigh***) that thread seems to be closed.
I heard this great statement about bass-players two weeks ago:
"bass-players make the best producers! They're the only who knows how to leave things out of a song and keep the essentials. Or in other words: they are the only musicians who knows how to add things to the song to reinforce the essentials".

Now ...isn't that a nice thought?
So don't cry, there is a great future for you all!

Paul - the bad one
Rami Sourour (rami)
Intermediate Member
Username: rami

Post Number: 158
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 6:25 am:   Edit Post

That's a good one Paul.

I think another way of putting it is that we're the liason between the melody and the percussion. The Bass player brings all the other instruments together. In fact, the Bass player can substitute for any melodic or percussive instrument. We're actually the most essential instrument in the band. They may not always notice us, but they sure notice when we're not there!
Jonathan Johnstone (stoney)
Intermediate Member
Username: stoney

Post Number: 138
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 6:38 am:   Edit Post

Well said Rami
Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Advanced Member
Username: palembic

Post Number: 366
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 7:07 am:   Edit Post

YES!!!
A big hand for Brother Rami!
My (upright) teacher once said:
"you may never hear the bass, you may only miss it when it's not there!"
Spose (spose)
Junior
Username: spose

Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 8:27 am:   Edit Post

A good bass player is a multi-tasker. As Rami said, he or she is the catalyst between the guitars and drums. As a bass player, I can support the percussion, and or support and join the guitars in the melody, as well as bring my own lead lines or melody to the table. As well, the bass player that understands complex or multi-amp/x-over type setups, will also understand the PA and sound systems as well. This is why you find a lot of bass players doubling on sound reinforcement. A great bass rig is half of a great PA rig! sort of.... yes, we are overlooked by most...I've played with a lot of really good guitar players don't really understand the role of bass, but they do know they want it behind them, and they know when it's not there:-)
Mica Wickersham (mica)
Moderator
Username: mica

Post Number: 806
Registered: 6-2000
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 9:16 am:   Edit Post

If you're being overlooked, it probably means you're doing something right. Musical restraint is one of the hardest talents to master, and I think a great asset for a producer.

(Sorry about the thread closing, I'm trying to determine the right limits for the auto archiving still.)
Dino Monoxelos (dean_m)
Member
Username: dean_m

Post Number: 93
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post

I have to reiterate my mantra, "There's no money above the 5th fret"
You don't have to take that literally but, there is a lot of truth to that as a working bass player. Like Rami said, we are the catalyst between the rhythm and the harmony in most musical situations.
I've been doing a lot acoustic duo stuff recently (acoustic guitar and upright bass) because the presence of a bass adds so much more color and warmth to a song as opposed to the usual 2 guitar duos we've been seeing here in Boston as of late.
As far as the producer role goes, it's very simple. We as bass players have to listen to what everyone else is doing in order to formulate what we are going to play on a song, whether it be a straight eighth groove or something more melodic. We have to listen to the rhythm(drums or percussion), the harmony(guitar/piano) and the melody. All of these factors have a say in what we are going to play. This is why Paul McCartney used to put his bass line down LAST on the Beatles stuff, he wanted to hear what was going on first. This is why we have become by default good producers, because we have to listen to the BIG PICTURE! Even if it means playing the most simplest part after all is said and done. Sometimes just playing whole notes adds just the right amount of "warmth and color" to a song.
As far as being technically savy towards gear and such, I think we're all a bit of knob-tweakers as Brother Paul (the bad one) puts it. I do have another saying though, "never give a bass player enough knobs to screw up their sound". LOL!!!
Now go practice your scales and arpeggios!!!

Peace - Dino (bptfo)
Paul Ellsworth (elzie)
Member
Username: elzie

Post Number: 94
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post

So this would make us rhythmic ambassadors! Now where did I put my resume.........

Paul (the good one, when I'm sleeping!)

(Message edited by elzie on April 01, 2003)
Joey Wilson (bigredbass)
Member
Username: bigredbass

Post Number: 74
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 11:15 am:   Edit Post

I've often thought that the following is the greatest irony in my playing, and maybe yours as well:

As a young player, it was so important to play as many notes and and hot licks as humanly possible.

As an older player with lots of experience, now I find that the most daunting skill is what to leave out.

'What a long, strange trip it's been !'

Joey
John Stefancik (jet_powers)
New
Username: jet_powers

Post Number: 8
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 8:54 am:   Edit Post

As Joey pointed out...

A young player plays all those notes because he can. An experienced player knows when not to play. This makes the eventual barrage of notes that have been building up in us and we all have to play at some point in the course of an evening much more powerful and effective.

A good artist knows when to stop.

John
Duncan Muller (muller1007)
Junior
Username: muller1007

Post Number: 27
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 9:30 am:   Edit Post

In this respect, check out James Taylor "Live at the Beacon Theatre" with Jimmy Johnson on bass.

This will totally confirm the opinion that it takes a great bass player to completely blend into the music, without being on the foreground. Jimmy is there without being there.

That is exactly why I greatly admire Jimmy Johnson. He totally understands the role of the bass player.

Duncan
Simon Taylor (staylor)
Junior
Username: staylor

Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post

Not to be contrary, but I have to add that music is music -- above the 5th-fret, below the 5th-fret, with many notes or few, loud or soft, slap, pick, tap, plunk, crashing through the drums . . .

I think Jimmy Johnson is awesome for exactly the reason that you point out, Duncan -- the man knows how to lay down an incredible groove w/o stepping all over everything. Blows me away, and is EXACTLY what works for James Taylor's stuff (which I love!!).

And I totally agree w/ the general sentiment that a better player knows when not to play, and someone who's not so good could often sound better by just paying more attention to their fellow musicians and less attention to how many notes they can fit into the next bar or two.

But I think folks can get little dogmatic about this type of stuff sometimes too. I like the bigger picture of music; a picture that is a little more experimental and open and pays less homage to one particular genre or another. I know on the average night I probably play too many notes here or there, and I strive constantly to be self-critical and find that more elegant, artistic expression of my ideas.

IMHO though, music is not a platonic ideal that we can only hope to find. Music is a place, a space, a conversation, an amazing auditory experience of intellectual and emotive play-centers; music comes from w/in us. Learning to "speak" a musical language, "say" beautiful things and "tell" captivating stories is not a skill that can be reduced, boxed up and sold. There are definitely many techniques for focussing and refining our musical speech, but in the end ". . . a man must move foward from where he stands." In other words, you might get really good by practicing all the right techniques, playing all the right notes, and learning to not play a lot of "right" notes, but you won't ever be your own master w/o walking the road your own mind and body generate in front of you.

A great example is a local drummer here in Juneau (who shall remain nameless to protect the innocent). He is by far one of the best drummers I've ever worked with. He's tight and groovy, he listens incredibly and he WILL make you sound like a better musician because of just how well he can track your pocket. But the truth is, even his best friend will tell you, "man, he is sooo great! I just wish that he'd open up a little; just be a little more raw occaisionally -- you can tell the potential energy is in him, but he just won't let it out!". So, IMHO, he's a great drummer but, for whatever reason, I don't really think he's his own master on the drums, and if you ain't your own master, you're no master.

So, to draw this rambling to a close, it's important to remember that, although there are a lot of great methods for becoming a better musician, you can't be your own musical master w/o knowing your own musical mind. Technique and methodology is a double edged sword; sometimes it shows you your road, and sometimes it hides it from you. The bass-player, like all musicians, has to walk his/her own road and find the zen of his/her own musical spirit.

For a great take on all this, I highly recommend "Free-Play: Improvisation in Life and Art" by Stephen Nachmanovitch (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874776317/qid=1049308944/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-6062608-9059006)
Charles "David" Tichenor (alembic76407)
Intermediate Member
Username: alembic76407

Post Number: 108
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 3:54 pm:   Edit Post

with a amp as big as mine, you can he heard and felt, I don't play alot of notes, but the ones I do play, can cause damage. on one gig the bar tender from next door came over and said "if another #$%^&*@ glass falls off the bar I'm going to sue you"
(sometimes I crack my self up)

David (the loud one) 125db or bust
David Burgess (dnburgess)
Junior
Username: dnburgess

Post Number: 22
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 5:33 pm:   Edit Post

David Tichenor - tell us more about your monster rig.
John Stefancik (jet_powers)
New
Username: jet_powers

Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2003 - 6:17 pm:   Edit Post

David (the loud one) makes a valid point. Bass should be felt as well as heard. I too like a rig that moves air molecules. Let's face it, with bass it's all about moving air. I don't wish to depend on a usually non existant sound man or on the PA mains. So my main rig is a 6-12 cab w/ horn and my alternate rig (the little one) is a 2-15 and a 4-10 powered by a 500W amp. It's not very often I am asked to turn up though I have never been threatened with litigation. Yet.

John
Charles "David" Tichenor (alembic76407)
Intermediate Member
Username: alembic76407

Post Number: 110
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 8:20 am:   Edit Post

part of my rig can be seen in the "owning an alembic" down at the bottom "the Weather machine, now there are 4-15s 4-12s and I'm adding 4-8s for the highs, two way electronic crossover, the Mesa/Boogie 400+ will power the 8s with a passive crossover, and the half of a Peavey 2000 will push the 12s and the other half will push the 15s. I have to admit it's abit overkill for a country/rock band, but I'm ready for anything!!!!
however I'm getting older and most the time I just use 1 or 2-15s and 2-10 Mesa/Boogie bass moniter with my Boogie 400+, and that will do the job, but I do love a big outside gig!!!!. I collected all this Equipment when I was suffering from M.P.S.(major purchase syndrome). I'm better now. it took alot of counciling (the wife), she said she would kill me. LOL

David (The loud one)
Dino Monoxelos (dean_m)
Member
Username: dean_m

Post Number: 97
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 9:19 am:   Edit Post

HEY DAVID,

(I'LL TYPE IN CAPS SO YOU CAN HEAR ME BETTER!!!)LOL
HOW OFTEN DO YOU GIG WITH THE WEATHER MACHINE? THIS THING IS BORDERING ON JOHN ENTWISTLE'S LITTLE MANHATTAN. DO YOU ACTUALLY CARRY THAT RIG TO YOUR GIGS OR DO YOU HAVE TO RENT A CRANE.
WOW, AND I THOUGHT CARRING MY SVT TO GIGS WAS BRAVE!!

D
Charles "David" Tichenor (alembic76407)
Intermediate Member
Username: alembic76407

Post Number: 111
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post

Dino, I'm hard of hearing not blind. LOL. I used this amp some years ago in my big hair days, when guitar players used Marshalls, now I take only as much as I can cram in my Porsche or con someone with a van to come by to help. with a set or two of horns it makes a great PA, which is the way it's used most of the time these days, but it makes for one hell of a bass rig!!!!!


David (the loud and now poor one)
Paul Lindemans (palembic)
Advanced Member
Username: palembic

Post Number: 373
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post

Guys ...we definitely have to ask David for the "Big Bom" we'll do at the AWS-Home ...remember?
I'll be right next to him with my GK 100B.
"Wow ... we can go loud" HA!

Paul (the bad one)

Paul (the fake one) and how do you manage to go to a gig with the SVT, your Alembicand yourself on your Harley? THAT must be something. LOL
Paul Ellsworth (elzie)
Member
Username: elzie

Post Number: 98
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 4:51 am:   Edit Post

So Dave, that would make your amp the MOABA, or Mother Of All Bass Amps.......


Paul (TGO)
Charles "David" Tichenor (alembic76407)
Intermediate Member
Username: alembic76407

Post Number: 112
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 7:31 am:   Edit Post

Paul, when you go to battle, you should be armed with the biggest and baddest, PLAY TO WIN !!!!!

David T (the loud one) and getting louder!!!!!

BTW, soundmen hate me
and remember second place is the first loser

(Message edited by alembic76407 on April 04, 2003)

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