| Author | Message | ||
| white_cloud
Advanced Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 384 Registered: 11-2007 |
Sigh...I have just found out that ZON have now a Korean plant producing basses ( if this is old news I apologise - Im a bit out of the loop these days! ) Another great name goes down the mass produced far eastern route and dilutes the rep of their US made models in my opinion! You simply cant hold the rarified position as a top end luthier when a far eastern facory, on your instruction, is producing models that look the same. Its the exact same thing with the likes of Warwick for example. For me a lot of the appeal of a high end Warwick was lost when I saw dozens of young kids everywhere playing ROCK BASSES that cost a fraction of the price of the "good" models but looked virtually the same! Same goes for Spector and numerous other top makes ( I could be here all day naming them )that decided that they wanted to reach a much wider audience. Western society is on a freefall now in a sense. Quantity over quality is the mantra. Corporations would like nothing better than to treat us ALL like battery fed chickens at their mercy- call it the Matrix effect! I guess the reason Im perturbed is that I always regarded Zon basses highly and found them to be quite elusive - Im sure that will change now. Anyway, I know the drill well- Zon will, of course, say that their Korean bass is a great first step on the ladder to buying a US top level model at a later time..it gives the kids a real opportunity to play a Zon sooner rather than later etc, but for me that is flawed. If you cut the price you cut the quality - and it removes the most vital ingredient of wanting to own a top quality bass.. Exclusivity! This is what makes Alembic so very special. An Alembic is a no compromise option. Something truly to aim for - the very highest of quality and integrity! I would love to hear your opinions Alembicans! P.S. Before any club members with Korean Zon basses jump on me and tell me how good they are ( which Im actually sure they are for the money by the way ) for me its purely a question of pedigree! John. | ||
| funkyjazzjunky
Intermediate Member Username: funkyjazzjunky Post Number: 115 Registered: 5-2007 |
John, I agree with you 100%. I love Carvin, Peavey and most especially Alembic because they make very good products (Carvin & Peavey) and great (Alembic) products with devoted American laborers. I want a bass the maker and builders are proud of. (I admire Fodera as well but I have never owned one). I do not want an instrument whose woods are chosen because they cost less. | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 473 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have one tribute G&L...swimming pool pickup cavity ,cheap and potted fretwire,epoxy filled neck pocket, body 'wood'(?) that is as heavy as lead, ...just the opposite of the details that make my 80's G&L's some of the best bolt ons on the planet. ...I guess if they build crappy instruments that always makes one yearn for better. It makes one wonder how greed can cloud judgement and pride. believe me ...you couldn't pay me to eat two taco's that cost only 99 cents | ||
| dnburgess
Senior Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 559 Registered: 1-2003 |
Each instrument should be judged on its merits. Some makers have not helped their brands with their Asian manufacturing strategies. But there are some US brands that have done it very well. One that comes to mind is MTD. Their Kingston models are great value for money and do capture some of the MTD vibe. In Australian terms the Kingstons are between $1000 and $1500 whereas US MTDs start at around $5000. So there are a lot of young or beginning players that can afford a taste of MTD - that might subsequently "graduate" to a custom US model. US MTDs still have about a 12 month waiting list - and Mike is running a the maximum level of production with which he feels comfortable. | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 798 Registered: 3-2004 |
I am a firm supporter of American made products. I do have a problem with Gibson and Fender for the prices of their mostly machine made, mass produced instruments. I do own an American Strat, LP Classic so I did pay the asking prices. That being said the quality of my Japan Strat and Korean ESP EC 1000 Deluxe, and Korean Fender Esquire Scorpions and GT is great. The fit and finish is exceptional. (But My Hamer Chaperelle 12 is a pain in the tail!) I bought some of the instruments not thinking about where they were made. I just wanted them at the time (and sometimes the ebay listing leaves some info out, no more late night bidding!) Alembic is a very rare company that continues to compel me to purchase their products. A huge part of it is that they are making it for me. to my specific tastes. There are other high end makers but they never struck a chord with me. I wanted a Fodera, but they kinda blew me off and never got back when I was inquiring about a custom bass. There were also no discussions about price other than list at the time. But we the obsessive happy few are not the average instrument buyer. Most folks are pleased as punch with the run of the mill as opposed to the jewel in the crown. We here demand and expect more than the average bear. Now to figure out how to pay for my next custom? | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 636 Registered: 11-2003 |
Before I retired, I spent about 18 months in Korea between 2004 and 2007. A few observations if I may. Korea is not what many might think it is, e.g., somewhat backward, third world, etc. I'm not suggesting that anyone actually thinks that, but I know from my travels that some may harbor that perception. Nothing could be further from the truth. Fifty five years ago, the Republic of Korea was a far different place. There was little industry, and many of the modern things at the time that developed nations had just didn't exist there. There were no auto plants, no mass communications to a large degree, no highways. The change since then has been astonishing. From the ashes of a horrible civil war, the ROK has taken a very prominent place amongst the nations of the world. Its economy is the 11th largest in the world and growing. It is one of the largest producers of semi conductors in the world. It's cars are rapidly catching the Japanese in quality. It is a major producer of electronics (if you don't believe me, go to your local Best Buy or Circuit City - the amount of LG, Samsung, etc. products will astound you). It has the best airport (Incheon) I've ever been in - and I've been through Frankfurt, Gatwick, Heathrow, Dubai, Bahrain, Puerto Rico, and numerous places in the states. It's highway system rivals ours, and their people are proud of their country and it shows. As far as the things they produce go, suffice to say they are more than capable of producing high quality products. They are also capable of producing less than high quality products, just as we are. In my experience though, most of what they make is of equal quality to most of the things produced here (Alembics excepted - nothing equals them in my opinion). I'd have no hesitation buying a Korean made product (my past two cellphones have been a Samsung and LG respectively). It's not a castatrophic thing if Zon, Ovation, Fender, Gibson, etc. make things in Korea. Nor is it a catastrophic thing if Koreans make things in the U.S. This is the global economy these days. This being said, like Danno, I support U.S. businesses simply because I want the jobs, money, etc. they produce to stay here in the states. I support them at every opportunity. However, if they make a substandard product (say, like McDonald's) my money goes elsewhere. White Cloud is right IMHO that most Americans want quantity over quality. I'd go a step further and add that most Americans IME want mediocrity over excellence. They don't want, for example, good food made with love by someone who cares. The good 'ol gut busting $10 gut busting buffet of culinary horrors is good enough for them. Personally, I'd rather pay someone to make me a meal with care than to go to the drive through where some pimply faced kid whose only concern is when he's getting off is the order of the day. As far as cutting price - cutting quality, I'd submit this. When I was in NYC in October of last year, I went to the Sadowsky shop in Brooklyn. I played a bunch of great basses, but what really caught my attention was a hybrid P/J bass. It has a Jazz like neck, with a P body, and P/J pickups. It was amazing - it played incredibly well. I played a number of other instruments, to include the NYC Vintage 4 Jazz that I eventually bought. However, I was surprised to learn that the hybrid I played was a Metro model, made in Tokyo, Japan. It was every bit as good and in some respects better than the NYC I have now. I'm looking for a hybrid Metro as my next Sadowsky purchase. As long as a company does good quality control, stuff produced overseas shouldn't be an issue. It's when that goes out the window that problems ensue IMHO and IME. Alan | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 481 Registered: 6-2002 |
well said Alan. My impression is that there is a portion of the american population that isn't getting that good food and substandard thoughts follow. Such as designing a cheaper product and finding an economy in this world that might support that type of industry. Take Gibson for example, instead of pushing the envelope, the fear that the matsumoku products might equal or surpass the quality of the 70's gibbies...which is sporatic...they started lawsuits. Thanks for the enlightening words, ...as Hendrix said about the people on this planet-"we're only families away..." | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 1984 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have had a couple USA Zon basses that I love. They are quality instruments, but every time I have tried to contact the company, the customer service has been pretty poor. I guess doing one thing right doesn't mean that they can do it all at the highest level all of the time. I'd still love to get my hands on a nice VB-4 as a gig backup if anyone knows of one laying about, though. The guitar player with whom I regularly play has a few American Strats and a very nice LP Custom. His overall favorite guitar, though, is a Japanese reissue Strat model. Alan, I wouldn't agree that most Americans "want mediocrity over excellence." I would rather say that many people will accept mediocrity rather than pay the full price for excellence. If all basses were sold at the same price, I bet the majority of the people out there would be playing Alembic, Zon, and other high-end instruments, not cheap Fender copies from Korea. I had dinner a few hours ago at the French Culinary Institute in NYC. If it could be had for the price of McDonalds, and in a similar amount of time, I would eat there every night of the week. Yes, people have different priorities. Some are willing to sit around for half an hour waiting for a beautiful meal to be prepared and can budget two hours for dinner. Others would just like to be done eating in ten minutes so they can get back to the other passions in their lives. | ||
| glocke
Advanced Member Username: glocke Post Number: 392 Registered: 9-2002 |
Is it a desire of the company to cut costs by manufacturing overseas, or is it a way to get their instruments into the hands of people who otherwise couldnt afford them? I am assuming most of us here have well paying jobs, and the majority of us here can probably afford any instrument we want. Thats not the case for everyone though. To some guy make 20k or 30k a year, that overseas made Zon bass could be his dream bass. . | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 1830 Registered: 10-2002 |
I thought this thread was going to be about the rumour that Yes are auditioning for a new singer in the wake of Jon Anderson's recent respiratiry attack and the cancellation of their 2008 40th anniversary tour ;-) Graeme | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 638 Registered: 11-2003 |
Bob, You worded it better than I ever could. You're right, most Americans (IMHO) accept mediocrity. And that's the problem. It brings to mind a saying a band instructor I had in high school used to use to motivate us. It was: "if you can afford a Cadillac, why not drive one?" His point was if you can make something the very best it can be, or do something as perfectly as you possibly can, why not aspire to that? In essence he was saying that perfection was always the goal but was unattainable. However, the pursuit of it wasn't, and that was the idea behind his saying. Pursuing perfection, in his mind (and mine, BTW) led to excellence and that should be what drives folks. It's a saying I've used often in my life and it's served me well. Unfortunately, too many of the people I know not only don't want to pursue excellence in either their personal or professional lives, they're perfectly content with mediocrity. I'm not being judgmental here, merely noting what to me is a sad occurrence that happens all too often I think. Excellence doesn't have to be expensive. It only takes someone who cares about what they're doing to make it the best it can possibly be. Some of the best meals I've eaten were on the street in Korea and elsewhere, and they didn't break the bank. They were usually made by someone who's been doing the same thing, consistently, for years with care and love in most cases. And ultimately, the best meals I've ever had were in either my or someone else's home. All basses aren't sold at the same price because excellence in that line of product doesn't, in fact, come cheap IME. Price of materials, labor, production methods, etc. all come into play. In terms of food, it is no different. You get out of it what you put into it labor and material-wise. For example, Kobe beef or grass-fed beef will taste vastly different to beef raised in giant feedlots where they're fed grain. Same goes for the cook preparing it - if you order medium rare and he can't tell the difference between that and well done, the quality of the ingredient will be ruined by overcooking in most cases. I had lunch at the FCI in October of last year (best pate de compagne I've ever had). I also toured the facilities (I was researching cooking schools; I ultimately decided against going there because I just didn't want to live in NYC for any period of time). What I found were a bunch of folks who deeply cared about what they're doing. At McDonald's, the vast majority of them don't and it shows (e.g., poor service, burgers that don't look like anything in their advertisements, etc.). At least that's been my experience, and that's why I haven't eaten at one in years. I agree that not everyone can budget the time to have a meal like the one you had at FCI. That doesn't mean they can't eat well, though, and relatively quickly. It doesn't have to be fancy, just good - think a simple meatloaf, mashed potatoes properly made, etc. And most importantly, shared with people you care about. Food, to me at least, isn't just about sustenance. It's the experience. I also feel that the best thing one can do to show someone that one really cares about them is to feed them and feed them as well as one can. When I cook for folks, I don't want them leaving the table saying, "well, that was good." I want them to say "life is good." I'd recommend a book, if you're so inclined -"Fast Food My Way" by Jacques Pepin, ironically one of the deans at FCI and a culinary hero of mine. He shows how one can take some simple ingredients and put together great dishes that take little time to prepare at home, often using pantry staple items. Not everything he has in the book can be created quickly (the codfish brandade, for example, requires soaking the baccalao or salted codfish in several changes of water for 8 or so hours), but most of it can. And as you note, folks can then get back to the other passions in their lives. Great points, BTW, and some things I didn't think about. Alan | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3166 Registered: 7-2004 |
My made-in-Japan Daions are the finest mass-produced guitars I've ever run across. As a capitalist society matures, the quality of almost everything will go down as the essential purpose of almost everything is to make money, not art. Alembic is among the last of the old-time American craftsmen that take pride in their product. Alembic is also owned by a family, not an amorphous corporation. Coincidence? I think not. That's why Alembic rules! Bill, tgo | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Advanced Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 332 Registered: 10-2006 |
"When I cook for folks, I don't want them leaving the table saying, 'well, that was good.' I want them to say 'life is good.'" Beautifully put, Alan, and my feelings exactly! As to instrument quality, my problem isn't with the quality of Asian guitars - they are definitely not what they were when I was young & "Made in Japan" was a punchline, & I have a MIK Epiphone Sheraton that I absolutely love. My problem is with the quality, and more precisely the quality:price ratio, of most MIA instruments. I have a friend who just bought 2 Les Pauls from 2 different Chinese factories. At least 1 of these is where Gibson currently makes Epiphones. This guy is a superb multi-instrumentalist who has been playing professionally for over 30 years. He currently owns at least 1 early-70s LP Custom, and has had several others in the decades I've known him; he knows instruments. He wanted another LPC, and went around to various stores trying them - they were nowhere near comparable to his old ones, and cost over $3K. He ordered a LPC from a website in China - an Epiphone with a Gibson headstock, stamped "Made in USA" - $350 with case & shipping. He says the genuine Nashville item is worth twice that, but not ten times that. He got a '54 LP reissue from another Chinese website - says it's a good guitar, and when he's done some fretwork, it'll be a great guitar (plus it's transparent amber instead of the period-correct goldtop, which, I'm sorry, is ugly). So, his choices were 1) MIA Gibson Les Paul Custom: $3400 + shipping, 2) MIC Epiphone Les Paul Custom, slightly, but only slightly, lower quality: $550 + case & shipping, or 3) MIC Epiphone Les Paul Custom with Gibson headstock, $350 w/case & shipping. With the '54, Gibson doesn't make one, so the choices are 1) MIC, $350 w/case & shipping or 2) a real '54 from George Gruhn, $42.5K + a drive to Nashville (no way I'd ship that!) The biggest problem I see here is not that you can buy a counterfeit Gibson, but that the quality of the real deal is so low that a pro player would choose the fake (and I feel it incumbent upon me to point out that he's buying these to gig with, not to sell as MIA). The same holds true for Fender; play a set of Strats - MIA, MIM, MIJ, & MIK - and then tell me why I would pay $1K+ for a MIA instrument whose playability is further from the early-60s benchmark Fenders than the out-sourced examples are at a fraction of the cost. (And as a true lover of early-60s Fenders, Bill, I'll renew my offer to double your money on the '61  ). To get back to the original post, I've never laid hands on a Zon, MIA or MIK, so I can't speak to them, but IME the problem with at least the legendary American makers going overseas is not the quality of the out-sourced pieces, but that it points up just how over-priced their domestic product is, how far their quality has declined, and how much they're coasting on reputation and the confidence that most people won't know the difference. Peter | ||
| white_cloud
Advanced Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 385 Registered: 11-2007 |
Some very interesting points of view here folks, and thats all good! One little point that I think I should clarify is that Im actually a fan of Japanese craftsmanship! For example I have played Japanese built vintage Squire Jazz basses that absolutely kicked the butt of any recent ( and some vintage )US made Jazz basses! I was also very impressed with some of the Tokai precision copies that I played - they had a great feel! Hell, one of the most technically gifted Guitarists I have had the pleasure to meet, Francis Dunnery, preferred his $300 Squire strat to Any Fender that he had ever played! Im not de-crying Korea, its people, its politics, beliefs, way of life or craftsmanship at all..but I do not believe I have played a Korean produced instrument yet that I would call TOP quality. I would, without being biased, not compare Korean quality to that achieved in Japan. Sorry, but its my honest assesment! If I get a hold of a Zon bass made in Korea that proves to be just that then I will be the first in line to hold my hands up and say "I got it wrong guys." I was trying to be careful with my original post because I wouldnt like Joe Zon to think I was having a go at his particular brand of basses - but I believe my general point to be valid. Like a lot of the community here I have a family to support, a house to upkeep and a wife to try and convince every time i want to even THINK about buying another Alembic ( I can hear her now "you have one, why do you need another! ) Im sure a lot of you catch my drift! The point that Im trying to make is this; I make a nice living but it still took me 20+years to eventually justify fulfilling my dream of owning an Alembic. Without the desire to own something as individual and special as an Alembic what would be the point for any member of this club? Would any of you settle for kissing good bye to your Alembic(s) and settling for a Korean factory produced axe? Thank god for Alembic, and all companies of every kind, who have not "sold out" to the mass market of "Make em cheap and pile em high!" John. | ||
| ajdover
Senior Member Username: ajdover Post Number: 639 Registered: 11-2003 |
John, Didn't mean to infer you were de-crying Korea or anyplace else, and I hope it wasn't presented that way. Perhaps I could have chosen a better choice of words ... Like you, I've yet to play a Korean instrument that comes close to what I consider top quality (e.g., Alembic, Lakland, Sadowsky, Pedulla, Fodera, etc.). However, I have played some Korean instruments which, IMHO are the equal of some of the Japanese made instruments I've played. For that matter, they're the equal of many USA made Fenders, Gibsons, etc. that I've played - at a much lower cost. Would I kiss my Alembics goodbye for a Korean factory made axe? Nope, but then again, a factory made axe and a largely hand-built Alembic are two different animals. Would I discard a USA made Fender for a superior Korean made product? Yes, particularly what I see coming out of Fender these days. Alan | ||
| white_cloud
Advanced Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 386 Registered: 11-2007 |
Hi Alan, Sorry that you thought that I thought you were infering that, if you know what I mean lol Have to agree with your assesment of current US made Fenders. The recent youtube post of their brand of instruments being rolled off "the line" was particularly disturbing to me! Having said that to many young dudes trying to start a band it is a relief! I suppose that quality and integrity is becoming something that is unfashionable - but not to all. That is where the hope is. With companies like Alembic there is always light at the end of the tunnel. John. | ||
| georgie_boy
Senior Member Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 488 Registered: 8-2005 |
I still rate my Cort Curbows guys! 27 frets, Bartolini MK1 P/u with Bartolini MK2 active electronics--and she was built in Korea Great basses for the buck Just my 0.02 Have to agree with John though!!! G | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1426 Registered: 10-2003 |
My Lakland Skyline 5-string was built in Korea, then setup at the Lakland shop in Chicago. It has the lowest playable action of any bass I've ever owned, and is really well-crafted. Sure it came out of a factory in Korea, but they built it really well. Sure I would have bought a USA Lakland if I had that kind of $$$, but this one was in the $700 range. And have I mentioned that it plays like a dream? So I guess it's the WalMart scenario, where I chose having it *now* instead of spending the money here at home in the USA. I generally try to buy locally made products, then regional and USA made, but sometimes it just makes economic sense (on a small *me* level) to simply buy the product which offers the most bang for the buck. What Alembic and other custom builders offer that the Korean shops don't, is the ability to have the instrument made exactly the way you prefer. While a fine instrument, there was never a chance that the factory that built my Lakland would have ever gone to the trouble to position the woods for best visual effect, or to make certain that the neck wood had perfect grain.. While on vacation, I was derided at an intersection about riding a "Jap" bike by a guy in a Dodge minivan that was covered in "BUY AMERICAN" stickers. I continued straight, while he made the turn into a WalMart... John | ||
| white_cloud
Advanced Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 387 Registered: 11-2007 |
This is the thing, I bet a lot of members here own, or have owned, Korean made basses - and pound for pound (or buck for buck) most of them will be really good. Im treading thin ice a little because I understand the motives of folks going down that route - I really do. George, Cort Curbows are great value for money - I love Bartolini pickups (My Jeff Berlin Bass, built in Czech republic incidentally, is fitted with them and they sound sweet!) but the fact that Corts are built in Korea does not detract from their name as a top luthier (because they arent) Its just not such a big deal really to Cort fans! John, Lakland make great basses but purists, rightly or wrongly, would still PREFER a non Korean model if given the choice - but it doesnt make the Korean model bad if you know what I mean! Zon are (were) regarded here in the UK as a top US made HIGH quality bass. The fact that certain models are now made in Korea Dilutes that reputation somewhat with purists Im sure. If you invest thousands of dollars in a US Zon bass and are up on stage doing your thing would you like to think that some members of the audience are sitting looking at your bass saying "mmm nice, but is it a Korean model or a good one??" It spoils the exclusivity somewhat, and at the end of the day no body could do that if you were playing your Alembic could they? (unless you were playing your Fernandes FAB hee hee!!) John. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Advanced Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 333 Registered: 10-2006 |
Sorry, I misspoke above: Gibson does currently make a '54 Les Paul reiss - Musician's Friend price just over $3K. Peter | ||
| mike1762
Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 83 Registered: 1-2008 |
I think the "debate" here is price vs quality vs value: value being the balance between price and quality. I bought my Alembics because I am at a point in my life that I could and I appreciated their superb quality. That being said, I did buy them used. The cheapskate in me will not allow me to pull the trigger on a new build. My best VALUE instruments are my used Alembics, a MIK Schecter C1 Classic, and a MIM Strat. | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 489 Registered: 6-2002 |
I agree with you about the MIM strats...I have one that is fantastic, my guitarist swears by his and will never part with it...they are all a little different so it's good to A/B a few if you have the chance. | ||
| 0vid
Intermediate Member Username: 0vid Post Number: 143 Registered: 4-2003 |
The real issue is not that Far Eastern manufacture is substandard, there are many examples that will prove this wrong. Ken Smith Pickups are OEMed by Kent Armstrong in Korea and have been for years, you don't hear anyone complaining about them. The specification of lower quality is the issue here. Often a manufacturer will specify lower grade components, less stringent QC. It has nothing to do with the geography of manufacture. E.g. Fender MIM is purposely specified at lower detail, lower quality components, to meet a price point. It has nothing to do with Mexico, or the fact that Fender US are made in USA by many immigrant Mexicans. The Conklins, MTDs or Curbows that were made in Korea were spec'ed higher and QC'ed higher than some other Korean factory output. It is the specification point, and business aim towards max profit that drives it. BC Rich made all sorts of instruments ad you can look at the varying specifications of the handmade ones vs the factory ones to meet the demand of metalheads. FYI, the original BC Rich handmade ones in the early years were handcarved by Mexican master carvers. | ||
| white_cloud
Advanced Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 388 Registered: 11-2007 |
Original handmade BC Rich guitars and axes were awesome - totally agree! A master craftsman is a master craftsman no matter his place of birth in my opinion. Its just there arent many true "master craftsmen" being trained anywhere nowadays! Why bother when you can program a big old CNC router to carve your necks at ten to the dozen! John. | ||
| 0vid
Intermediate Member Username: 0vid Post Number: 144 Registered: 4-2003 |
You may wish to note that some companies have their manufacturing completely offshore and therefore do not have the "Made in the USA" issue. For those who still have manufacturing in the USA, the strategy is usually to have offshore manufacturing produce parts for local assembly, or complete items - and in the latter case of complete items, in our case complete instruments, they usually specify something less than what they locally manufacture. E.g.MTD's offshore products are lower spec and lower QC to USA models, and are not meant to compete with local production. On the other hand PJB products, Phil Jones Amps, are completely made in China. Many of Mackie products are also made in China; as is much of the condensor microphones in the market at the moment. Even Manley makes mics in China. Lakland and as you note, Zon's offshore production, is likely to be different from their local production. This is possible as the offshore production will be at a lower price point and will meet the demand for the brand or association with the brand. Many years ago, SD Curlee attempted to manufacture offshore as well as manufacture in the US at the same time. Their problem was that they never differentiated their US product from the offshore product by much, and their brand pretty much died as they did not build up enough of a reputation for their US product, to introduce an offshore product at a much lower price point. There was virtually no difference between the two, they used the same pickups etc. When Fender contracted FujiGen Gakki to build Fender Japan, they got a kick up the behind to match up in term of their US production. You must know that Fender has legally stopped Ishibashi exporting Fender Japan products. In many ways, they are still making a great product that has little if any difference to what the US factory or custom shop can turn out, at a much lower price point. No company wants that and so they usually make a point of making a lower spec instrument offshore. So I really don't see a dilution in quality at all when the spec at point of manufacture is already intended to be lower than their best capability. | ||
| white_cloud
Advanced Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 389 Registered: 11-2007 |
A good point well made - however, By assosiating with a product that is a lower spec than what you are actually capable of producing you are setting a dangerous precedent for your company name - essentially diluting the overall quality and integrity of the name of your brand. The exclusivity is lost, and that is a big deal for a high end luthier/builder such as Zon. Sure, Alembic products span all sorts of price brackets - but the same basic level of craftsmanship and pride of product exists! For example would you be happy to buy a brand new $1000 korean factory built Alembic Essence that fell short on the quality of a US handmade model - or would you rather save up your cash and eventually have the real thing? If (god help us) Alembic went down the same business route as the likes of Zon what would be the overall effect on the Alembic brand? John. | ||
| 0vid
Intermediate Member Username: 0vid Post Number: 145 Registered: 4-2003 |
Budget models have been around for years, it is not going to stop. It is a business practice based on marketing & sales opportunities. It doesn't seem to have hurt anyone's desire to have top of the line spec Fender, Conklin, MTD, PRS, Drumworkshop, etc etc etc nor does it seem to have affected their profits. Ernie Ball did a turnaround and decided to pull the plug on their budget line, as did G&L. You can be sure it was not due to letters about loyalty to US made insturments. What are the fans going to do? Burn their US made instruments in protest against budget offshore models? No. They bought the Sub Bass, the OLPs and the G&L Tributes. Mercedes Benz and BMW also make budget models. Some companies disassociate their main brand by using a different name, e.g. Toyota created their luxury marque, Lexus. Fender do it donwscale with Squier. Marshall did downscale with Park. It is a marketing decision, usually made on the basis of pecuniary judgement. I doubt emotion and brand loyalty has anything to do with it, particularly if sales are final and not continuous. FYI, I have a Korean made Conklin Groove tools. It cost me $700USD. It is a very good instrument, and amongst the 20 odd basses I have it has the best low B. FYI, it is the real thing, it is a Conklin designed bass. Will I buy a handmade Conklin? If one comes my way and is what I am looking for in touch and tone, yes. I don't think about brand loyalty, and you can be sure the brand is NOT thinking about my loyalty or lack thereof when they make a business decision. Business decisions are made on a forecast of possible income, not on the emotions of previous customers. | ||
| white_cloud
Advanced Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 391 Registered: 11-2007 |
But it is your emotional attachment to your korean built Conklin groove that has driven your response to this subject - therefore emotions DO come in to it! My emotional reaction to Zon is this circumstance is that I no longer regard them as one of the very top producers of exclusively high end luthier built bass guitars! I value integrity and it is my choice to feel that way. I doubt any member of this forum could honestly, hand on heart, say that if Alembic opened a korean plant producing Alembic designed basses identical to the US models at a fraction of the price that they would not emotionally feel that the brand had been devalued in exclusivity, integrity and spirit! Therefore the same applies, in my opinion to Zon, who have now compromised their brand name by detracting from their high end US made product! John. | ||
| eligilam
Intermediate Member Username: eligilam Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2006 |
I have an Ibanez fretless Soundgear SR400 made in Korea...so it's a double asian bass whammy: Japanese company farming out to Korea. However, the thing simply sings, and is one of my most playable basses. Even with the cheapo crap stock PJ electronics! Still saving for a fretless Series, though. | ||
| georgie_boy
Senior Member Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 494 Registered: 8-2005 |
John-----------I've got to stick with you on this one, even though I use "other" instruments Maybe it's just a sign of old age MFA What I find is---If the instrument is well built--- like my Corts, then you have a good playing instrument---------------fin de l'histoire. Load her with Barts or whatever, and you end up with a great instrument for a fraction of the bucks!!!?? Not a 76 Series 1 though | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3168 Registered: 7-2004 |
The more "SE" models that PRS puts out, the lower my opinion of the company. Same thing with Martin. They used to produce a small family of arguably the finest acoustic guitars in the world. Now they have far more models than I can keep track of, they come in all colors and materials, including synthetic(!) I believe, and even some with pictures of cowboys or batman or something painted on. I certainly won't be buying one of those, and, because of the dilution, I am far less likely to buy a new Martin of any model. By the way, I recently got an Eastwood Sidejack Baritone guitar (Made in China, I believe). For $369 this is one helluva guitar! Bill, tgo | ||
| white_cloud
Advanced Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 397 Registered: 11-2007 |
Absolutely - the quality of guitar/bass that a tiny budget can buy nowadays is incredible! I never raised this thread to put down low budget instruments (we have all been there, right?) or specifically korean instruments! I admit that Im generally very impressed with the kind of value for money axes that are produced by Korean and even more so by Japanese craftsmen. It would be wrong to do so considering the sheer demand for such instruments from youngsters (and oldsters) trying to get started in a band, personal pleasure etc. Maybe Im being a touch hypocritical but for me a Fender for example is never a high end luthier product - neither is a Cort - so its kind of not a big deal to me for those guys to produce in the far-east/mexico etc. Its just that I considered Zon to be on a different level from most makes! Im probably just an idealist at the end of the day! | ||
| speicky
Advanced Member Username: speicky Post Number: 306 Registered: 3-2005 |
...but you're not alone, John... not by far ! | ||
| 0vid
Intermediate Member Username: 0vid Post Number: 148 Registered: 4-2003 |
(quote)But it is your emotional attachment to your korean built Conklin groove that has driven your response to this subject - therefore emotions DO come in to it! (quote) Actually, no. I'll pick an instrument for the application - who makes it carries little weight for me. I play my instruments for various sonic applications in recording or performance situations, and I have a noah's ark of musical instruments, each is different for what they do. I am not a brand fan in anyway, Alembic included. I am here in this forum to exchange useful information on the Alembic products I own and use; I am not a card carrying fan club member. If you think a company devalues its name or exclusivity by expanding its business, then good for you and your voting wallet. I don't have a problem with it and I don't see the reason to maintain any imaginary elitist status. It leads to bigotry, snobbery - albeit in the consideration of musical instruments and the marques behind them. I don't have a problem with other people having something I have and am not interested in promoting a have and have not society in anyway. (Message edited by 0vid on July 17, 2008) | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 405 Registered: 11-2007 |
Well - Everybody is different and thats as it should be. We all think and feel in our own way - and react accordingly! Bigotry and snobbery are inherant human traits unfortunately - but are probably more relevant in a discussion regarding situations that affect human welfare as opposed to musical instrument choice! I dont actually have any particular loyalty to brand - I simply select the products that I believe in for my own personal reasons! Bottom line here Ovid is we are just going to have to agree to disagree John. | ||
| funkyjazzjunky
Intermediate Member Username: funkyjazzjunky Post Number: 116 Registered: 5-2007 |
This has nothing to do with bigotry or snobery. The reason that imperts by Warwick, MTD, Fender Squires, et al sell for less is that they are of lesser quality. Not bad quality, but lesser quality. Not poor quality, but not the standard normally set by premium bass luthiers. An American made base built on a factory line with lesser quality control and lesser quality materials would be just as bad. | ||
| alembic_doctor
Senior Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 401 Registered: 8-2002 |
BUILD AMERICAN. BUY AMERICAN | ||
| alembic_doctor
Senior Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 402 Registered: 8-2002 |
Having just remembered that this is the "World" Wide Web, I submit: For those of you who do not live here in these Great States. I would implore you to buy American as well. I like to think that for the most part, Americans build some of the best stuff in the world. Now there are some other countries that produce some very fine stuff. But China ain't one of 'em. The British make the absolute best pre-amps and mixing consoles. The French actually make some far superior speaker systems The Russians (and the their outlying areas) make some really smokin' microphones and tube equipment. Heck, they make some awesome effects processors in Denmark. But I can not think of one single item, in my industry, that China ever innovated. my $0.02 | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6812 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's one | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6813 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's another one By the way, this clip is pretty amazing; absolutely wonderful right hand technique! (Message edited by davehouck on July 18, 2008) | ||
| mike1762
Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 87 Registered: 1-2008 |
They make pretty good Chinese food | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6814 Registered: 5-2002 |
As a generalization, my view is, that to make our communities sustainable, no matter where we live, it is important to support local farmers, artisans, craftspeople and merchants. I also tend to think that there are supremely talented artisans and craftspeople all of the world; that no arbitrary political boundary determines the limits of human artistry and craftsmanship. | ||
| alembic_doctor
Senior Member Username: alembic_doctor Post Number: 403 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks for correcting me Dave. The Chinese do make some pretty "innovative" instruments of their own design. At least I don't think they "borrowed" the technology to make their instruments. | ||
| mike1762
Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2008 |
This was made in China....  I like that. | ||
| dnburgess
Senior Member Username: dnburgess Post Number: 562 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chinese inventions: compass, gunpowder, printing, silk. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6818 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Doc! | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Advanced Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 335 Registered: 10-2006 |
More Chinese innovations: spaghetti & trans-oceanic navigation. And my previous post wasn't claiming Chinese innovation in electric guitars - just an acceptable price:quality ratio that owes to both their improvement & the decline of the major American manufacturers. Hand craftsmanship is another matter and, as Dave points out, a human, not nationalist, matter. Peter PS - Allow me to second Brother Flowers's post! My, oh my! | ||
| mike1762
Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 89 Registered: 1-2008 |
A bit of a deviation... Workers in this country were underpaid and exploited for many years; therefore, along came the unions. The unions gained power and did improve the life of American workers. Look at the auto industry... those were some of the best blue collar jobs you could have. However, as we all know...Power Corrupts. The labor costs got so out of hand in the auto industry that they packed their stuff and went elsewhere. Then our government decided that was OK and many other industries followed suit (I can tell you that NAFTA DECIMATED the textile industry in my hometown). Now we (Americans) are able to buy cheap products made overseas, but we have lost the manufacturing base of our economy. Therefore, the working class is un/underemployed and can't buy anything!!! Despite this, we were told for the past few decades that the economy was doing great (not right this second of course). Understand that what they meant was that the STOCK MARKET was doing great. The stock market IS NOT a valid measure of how well the average Joe on the street is doing economically. We are now paying the piper for bad decisions made years ago. So... what does this have to do with guitars? Fender, Gibson, etc answer to their stockholders and are doing what it takes to turn a profit. You can't exploit an American worker, but it's OK to exploit a Chinese worker. For a kid buying his first guitar, an American made instrument isn't even an option. Even for me, I don't like to feel like I'm pissing money away. I paid about $300 for a new MIM Strat... I put some Lace Sensors in it ($100)and changed to some locking tuners ($80). I couldn't be more pleased. However by doing so, I have supported the economic policies that I contend are ruining this country. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1428 Registered: 10-2003 |
"The stock market IS NOT a valid measure of how well the average Joe on the street is doing economically." Hit it on the nose. John | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6822 Registered: 5-2002 |
At this time I would like to gently suggest that perhaps we are moving a bit into the arena of political discourse, for which there are many much more appropriate venues. I spend as much time on political blog sites as I do here; and there, the discussions among like minded partisans are not pretty, in fact they can get downright ugly. And that's among individuals of like minded political ideologies; which is not the demographic here. If I may suggest, there are a number and variety of places on the internet where one can write one's own blog and invite discussion. It is certainly understandable that we may wish to discuss issues that we consider highly important with our friends here. So I'm thinking that perhaps including a link in one's profile to one's political blog would be a way of doing that. I tend to post things here from time to time that could reasonably be construed as contrary to my remarks in this post. For instance my remarks above about sustainable local economies could be construed by some, and not unreasonably so, as a political position. And I do fairly often "let slide" remarks by others that also push the envelope. I admit to being inconsistent. Because I see on a daily basis the tenor of political discussion in other blogs, I really like the idea of keeping our place here relatively free of that genre. On the other hand, I do feel very strongly about our planet and the people on it, and consequently feel the desire to "share" my views. However, there are times when I want to get away from politics, and be someplace where I can relax among friends; and our group here is such a place. My guess is that many of the members here share that view. For me, one of the things about our group that has been most rewarding is its significant international participation. Here, we are a community of musicians. We are not constrained by political boundaries or ideologies. Here we share a special kindredship in our love and appreciation of music. Rhythm and harmony stir our souls, and ground us in our common humanity. Speaking of which, I haven't picked up my Alembic yet today. I better go do that right now! Thanks for reading. I hope you don't find my comments too unreasonable. And have a wonderful morning, afternoon, evening, wherever on our planet you happen to be at the moment. | ||
| mike1762
Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2008 |
Sorry about that Dave. I'll get us back on track....  | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 932 Registered: 6-2002 |
Sooo... the Chinese invented the Mona Lisa smile as well? Mike P.S. Dave, I like your mindset. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1429 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mike1762, I do like the way you think! ;) John | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 1838 Registered: 10-2002 |
So who is she Mike? graeme | ||
| mike1762
Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 92 Registered: 1-2008 |
I don't know... I googled "Hot Chinese Chick" (LOL). I have a minor (ie major) Asian fetish that my wife is good enough to barely tolerate. I just get to look though!!! | ||
| funkyjazzjunky
Intermediate Member Username: funkyjazzjunky Post Number: 119 Registered: 5-2007 |
The Chinese produce great Kung Fu movies | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 410 Registered: 11-2007 |
Well - I was principally talking about Korean and Japanese instruments, but I suppose China is just as relevant to this thread also! Be careful folks - China was an incredibly powerful and advanced nation when the US was yet to be discovered for many hundreds of years - and inhabited primarily by millions of buffalo John. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Advanced Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well, John, China was indeed powerful and advanced before what is now the US was invaded by Europeans - but it wasn't "discovered", as at that time it was also inhabited by millions of humans, who were quite aware of it's existence! Peter | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3173 Registered: 7-2004 |
America Cat Sunflower? Korea Cat Sunflower? Japan Cat Sunflower? Sierra Leone Cat Sunflower? Nah. It's gotta be "China"! Bill, tgo | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 416 Registered: 11-2007 |
I know I know, dont take offence guys - I was messing | ||
| georgie_boy
Senior Member Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 500 Registered: 8-2005 |
This has been a most interesting post. Thanks John! Just out of curiosity, I looked at my 2 Cort Curbow basses to see where they were built. The sunburst one with the Wenge neck was built in Korea. The fretless bass was built in Indonesia! Both basses look great and sound great although the fretted sunburst is a little louder on stage than the fretless. I use Stainless Pro Steels on this one, and Chrome flats on the fretless (is this normal to experience a volume difference between them??-all being equal, ie same pups and electronics?) They are GREAT basses for the buck, and very well made. I use them 98% of the time when I don't want to take the "big fella" out in case it gets damaged. I suppose what I'm trying to say is, these guys are building quality------OK they are not Greg Curbow basses but damn-they're good. Just out of curiosity, I played the fretted Curbow through my little Avenger practice amp yesterday, and it sounded great then------------ I plugged in the Series. GEEZ!!! For a 32 year old bass, it just blew the Curbow away. Even the Fernandes I had was better than a lot of so called high end basses, so I'm all in favour of quality no matter where it is made. I do agree, that basses such as Fender, while being made in America are also made in eg. Mexico These basses are NOT as good as the American ones, BUT like me, when I bought the FERNANDES, it was the nearest thing to my dream that I could find, and thus believe that many young players will tend to buy the NAME as opposed to the build country. When they do get enough money to buy the real thing, then they will, and trulu appreciate the finesse of the Real Thing. I did! My brother has 2 PRS single cuts and they are great Sorry if I lost track a bit, but agree with John, yet agree with making a "copy" product available to those less well off Just my 0.02 G | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Advanced Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 340 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well, enough on dilution of quality - let me move in the opposite direction. George and several other people have spoken glowingly of the Cort Curbow. The last time I saw a Cort was lot of years ago, and then they were among the cheesiest of the Fender/Gibson clones. Have they actually become a credible builder? When? And how cool is that? Should I now expect someone to post praising their new Teisco? Peter (Message edited by cozmik_cowboy on July 26, 2008) | ||
| georgie_boy
Senior Member Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 502 Registered: 8-2005 |
Asfar as I'm lead to believe, the Cort factory builds instruments for SO MANY different companies. IBANEZ being one Now they are a reputable company, with a Japanese head office etc and they are great quality! Would an American built Ibanez be of better quality than a Japanese one? Don't get me wrong--Apart from my Corts, every piece of gear I own is (nearly) American. I'm a GREAT believer in AMERICAN is BEST! Maybe it's just a Live and let live If we owned some of these big name companies---would we do the same to become even richer?? The answer is probably YES---if we're honest with ourselves. My final word---GREED has ruined the world. May the Lord have mercy on us | ||
| white_cloud
Senior Member Username: white_cloud Post Number: 422 Registered: 11-2007 |
Greed has ruined my body George - too many eat all you like buffets John. | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 1920 Registered: 6-2002 |
Cort was even building "designed by Elrick" basses some time ago. Didn't look half shabby - sorry, I was passing through and really had no time to play it. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6843 Registered: 5-2002 |
George, I disagree. While there are a lot of selfish people in the world who think only of themselves, there are also a lot of people in the world who choose to live simply, who give of themselves to help others, who find joy in the simple everyday pleasures of life. And while greed has indeed inflicted much ruin upon our world, so also has much good been done by those who work together in community to make our world a better place for us all. So I disagree, I do not think that everyone would always choose to further enrich themselves; the evidence suggests otherwise. | ||
| funkyjazzjunky
Intermediate Member Username: funkyjazzjunky Post Number: 131 Registered: 5-2007 |
One giant Korean company is Samick. They have made instruments for Jackson, Charvel, Epiphone, Fender Squire, G&L, and others. | ||
| georgie_boy
Senior Member Username: georgie_boy Post Number: 503 Registered: 8-2005 |
David In response to your post Yes you are absolutely right!! (as per ususal) I think I may have had my "crabbit auld heed oan" Scottish for "bad tempered old head on" I'm sorry if I upset anyone with my post; no intention meant BUT-you are right, I should have been more thoughtful when I wrote this Your posts are always informative and unbiased, and for me to come out with such a remark was sheer stupidity and immature. If only we could all work together to make this world a better place Thankyou David Houck-----we all love you on this site-that's why you are a Moderator and we are not You help us even when we are down! What a star!! George | ||
| thumbsup
Junior Username: thumbsup Post Number: 37 Registered: 7-2008 |
I guess we're all aware that "The King Of Beers" has sold out. At some point in the game,if one chooses to progess,the orginal makers loose control and the corporate prevails....Thats just the way the world turns!....It still taste like Budwiser doesn't it?...As for the "King of Inovation for Bass Guitars" (Alembic)....Only Time Will Tell!.....And thats my pennys worth....Steve | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 6846 Registered: 5-2002 |
George, thank you for your kind comment. You've further brightened what's already started as a gorgeous morning here in the mountains. Thanks! | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Advanced Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 341 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well, Steve, with any luck at all, maybe it WON'T taste like Budweiser anymore! Peter (the beer snob one) |
