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flaxattack
Senior Member
Username: flaxattack

Post Number: 2159
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post

i have to admit- i was hoping the new admin whould hit the ground running-but i never expected them to be sprinting like this. i was amazed at the interview with al-arabiya sunday night.

so tonight obama is hosting a cocktail party at the white house for app 10 reps and 10 dems plus who knows who else

my advice- to hell with the liquor! smoke a doob or 3 and legalize marijuana to jump start the economy. Take the weed out of the hands of the mexican cartel and other criminals.
not to mention dropping the price on an ounce!

but after 8yrs of nothing- this sure is refreshing
jet_powers
Senior Member
Username: jet_powers

Post Number: 421
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 1:31 pm:   Edit Post

Not to start a political discourse, but I wouldn't say it's been 8 years of nothing! History made! The worst administration on record!

Personally, having no party affiliation, I was truly amazed at the right wing propaganda that would show up in my email over the last 18 months or so. Now that the new administration has been in place for a whole week now, and have hit the ground sprinting, can I assume the RW scare tactics were less than true? They made it sound like as soon as the Dems took control, homos would come to my house and redistribute my wealth. It hasn't happened yet. Should I still be nervous?
bsee
Senior Member
Username: bsee

Post Number: 2147
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 1:41 pm:   Edit Post

Jeez, Jeff...What part of let's not talk politics on the Alembic club boards is so hard to understand? I haven't even read your message nor do I have a side to chime in on. I just know that even if 99% of the people out there agree with you, there's 1% who will be pissed or alienated. Even if it's 100% agreement, it sets a bad precedent and makes it a harder job for Dave to look for the gray area where political discourse is sort of okay. For Dave's sake as well as the rest of us, can people stop inciting political discourse here, no matter how harmless they may think it is?

Just my opinion as a frustrated non-moderator who likes to read about things that don't involve politics or religion on these boards.

-bob
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 7421
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 1:52 pm:   Edit Post

Jeff; as moderator I have on several occasions discouraged political threads and comments as outlined in the posting guidelines, and that discouragement remains my position on the mater. I recently edited a post by another club member to remove a disparaging remark of a political nature. It was perhaps an overreaction on my part to take that kind of action, but I have stated my position several times and I would have hoped that after last November that we could all agree to respect our fellow club members by not saying things that others will find to be attacks on their character.

For some, and understandably so, politics and religion are subjects that can be highly emotional. Events that are celebratory for some can be heart rending for others.

Many people worked very hard for the candidates who lost in November; and for some it is still an emotionally bitter defeat.

Our community is a close knit community, and our closeness is based on a common love and appreciation of music, and of Alembic instruments. It is my considered opinion as moderator that discussions and comments of a political nature will serve to loosen the bonds that make this community the place that it is. Many of our members, as has been stated by others in past discussions on this topic, hold this place as a refuge; they simply do not want to know the political affiliations or positions of their fellow club members.

There will be many members here that agree with your observation that things are "refreshing"; however, there will be many others who do not share that view, and some of them will be upset that you even brought it up. There will be some who won't say anything in response, but will just close the browser window and look for some other refuge.

I find it wholly understandable that you would want to share with your friends here how you feel about the political climate. But as moderator, for the above stated reasons, I just don't think it is a good idea. I have stated this many times in the past, and the feedback that I get is that the club as a whole finds this position to be reasonable.

I spend hours every day in political blogs, and if you like discussing politics, a political blog is a wonderful place to do so. The political blog I spend the most time in is for me and many others a community. But that place is a different world than our community here.

We have a wonderful community here and as moderator I imperfectly try within the limitations of my ability to help keep it so. I hope you find my position on this matter reasonable.

[edit: spelling]

(Message edited by davehouck on January 28, 2009)
jet_powers
Senior Member
Username: jet_powers

Post Number: 422
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 3:27 pm:   Edit Post

Sorry for taking the bait.

JP
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke

Post Number: 542
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 3:39 pm:   Edit Post

I like grape jam...
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 3497
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 5:02 pm:   Edit Post

Will the San Francisco 49ers EVER pick an offensive coordinator?

Bill, tgo
olieoliver
Senior Member
Username: olieoliver

Post Number: 2002
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 5:39 pm:   Edit Post

You can have ours Bill!

Of course this week I'm a Cardinals Fan.

OO
mike1762
Advanced Member
Username: mike1762

Post Number: 244
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 5:41 pm:   Edit Post

The weird thing is that I love strawberry flavored stuff, but I don't like strawberrys.
crgaston
Senior Member
Username: crgaston

Post Number: 520
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 6:43 pm:   Edit Post

Stockings!
rami
Senior Member
Username: rami

Post Number: 885
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 7:24 pm:   Edit Post

Let's wish the new President the best of luck for the daunting challenges ahead of him. His success is in everyone's best interest.

Plus, he seems like a nice guy.

:-)
dadabass2001
Senior Member
Username: dadabass2001

Post Number: 996
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 9:50 pm:   Edit Post

Stockings and empty beer bottles pounding a beat...

... in a biker bar in july
:-)
flaxattack
Senior Member
Username: flaxattack

Post Number: 2160
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 11:56 pm:   Edit Post

what ever happened to free speech
dave and bob
if you dont wish to make comment- then dont
but dont sit there on your duffs telling me what i can or cannot or should not do

politics? the whole frkn world is about politics!
politics? we talkin politics?

alembic politics? dave's politics? bob's? ok 2 out of three...
whats wrong with what other's HERE think whats goin on?

if i wanted to go to political b.s. blogs- i would
DUH
sounds like a couple of youze guys are getting a little too full of yourselves....

there are 100s maybe 1000s who visit this site
so one or 2 people bitch- big deal

i would hope you might have better things to do
than whine about getting people to discuss the world around us

if anyone wants to bitch about my thread- email me directly
bassman10096
Senior Member
Username: bassman10096

Post Number: 1187
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 4:38 am:   Edit Post

[edited to remove inflamatory, enabling content]




(Message edited by bassman10096 on January 29, 2009)
pas
Intermediate Member
Username: pas

Post Number: 150
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 7:11 am:   Edit Post

Two comments here:

Dave - I'm the person whose post you censored. It was in the Dead on tour thread. I basically used the incoming administration's espoused tax policies as a metaphor for the Dead's pre-election ticket prices ($50) versus their post-election prices ($100). I would like to say, as many have, that I think you do a mostly good and even handed job here as moderator. However, in many a previous comment you've found questionable, your response was graduated and courteous...with some sort of explanation, either public or private...not instant censorship. All I ask is that we have one set of rules for EVERYONE and that they be evenly applied. IMHO, your curt and INSTANT censorship of my post displayed YOUR bias. You may be the moderator, but don't kid yourself that you're neutral.

Flax - Well...one can of gas + one match = fire.
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 3499
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 7:30 am:   Edit Post

Flax:

Whatever happened to free speech? If you're referring to the First Amendment to the Constitution, it provides that THE GOVERNMENT can't censor your speech. The First Amendment doesn't apply to private parties, mothers, or musical instrument forums. They can all still legally tell you to "shut your mouth", and, I believe, your mom may still wash it out with soap - all without violating "freedom of speech". You know where my political leanings reside. If not, just look to your left and there I'll be. Nevertheless, I try to respect the request that has been made of us all on this site. Sort of reminds me of some advice my dad gave me on my wedding day, illustrating that some courses of action just aren't worth it:

"Don't fight with your wife. But, if you should get in a fight with your wife, for God's sake don't win".

Bill, tgo
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 693
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 7:36 am:   Edit Post

Since I am from the UK and don't understand USA politcs as I don't even admit to understanding my own country's politics, this thread is liable to get personal on all fronts.
811952
Senior Member
Username: 811952

Post Number: 1608
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 7:57 am:   Edit Post

"Don't fight with your wife. But, if you should get in a fight with your wife, for God's sake don't win".

Best. Advice. Ever.

John
mike1762
Advanced Member
Username: mike1762

Post Number: 247
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 5:17 pm:   Edit Post

ajdover
Senior Member
Username: ajdover

Post Number: 686
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 7:20 pm:   Edit Post

Folks,

First off, I'm a Republican.

Second, I didn't vote for Obama (no surprise there).

Third, I think a lot of the things he's proposed are bad for our country.

Fourth, as an American, I have the right and ability to make my opposition to what he (and every other elected official) proposes known to my representatives in the Senate and the Congress. And I do that as the need arises.

Fifth, if one reads the Constitution, the real power in this country (in modern terms anyway) lies with the Congress. They pass the laws, control the purse strings, etc. (if I'm wrong, someone correct me). The President really doesn't have that much power Constitutionally. We just think he does. What can he do?

From the Constitution:

Article II
Section 1. The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his office during the term of four years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same term, be elected, as follows:


Each state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or person holding an office of trust or profit under the United States, shall be appointed an elector.


The electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for two persons, of whom one at least shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves. And they shall make a list of all the persons voted for, and of the number of votes for each; which list they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates, and the votes shall then be counted. The person having the greatest number of votes shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such majority, and have an equal number of votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately choose by ballot one of them for President; and if no person have a majority, then from the five highest on the list the said House shall in like manner choose the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by States, the representation from each state having one vote; A quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. In every case, after the choice of the President, the person having the greatest number of votes of the electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal votes, the Senate shall choose from them by ballot the Vice President.


The Congress may determine the time of choosing the electors, and the day on which they shall give their votes; which day shall be the same throughout the United States.


No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.


In case of the removal of the President from office, or of his death, resignation, or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by law provide for the case of removal, death, resignation or inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what officer shall then act as President, and such officer shall act accordingly, until the disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.


The President shall, at stated times, receive for his services, a compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that period any other emolument from the United States, or any of them.


Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."


Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.


He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law: but the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments.


The President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.


Section 3. He shall from time to time give to the Congress information of the state of the union, and recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper; he shall receive ambassadors and other public ministers; he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed, and shall commission all the officers of the United States.


Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

As I see it, given the above, all the President, under our Constitution has the power to do is:

Nominate people to the Supreme Court, appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls,and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law.
Give the state of the union
Can adjourn both houses should he deem it appropriate
Fill vacancies in the senate
Make treaties with 2/3 Senate consent
Grant pardons and reprieves
Serve as commander in chief of the Armed Forces

The Congress, on the other hand ...


Article I
Section 1. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section 2. The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every second year by the people of the several states, and the electors in each state shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature.

No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state in which he shall be chosen.

Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the state of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

When vacancies happen in the Representation from any state, the executive authority thereof shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies.

The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers; and shall have the sole power of impeachment.

Section 3. The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each state, chosen by the legislature thereof, for six years; and each Senator shall have one vote.

Immediately after they shall be assembled in consequence of the first election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three classes. The seats of the Senators of the first class shall be vacated at the expiration of the second year, of the second class at the expiration of the fourth year, and the third class at the expiration of the sixth year, so that one third may be chosen every second year; and if vacancies happen by resignation, or otherwise, during the recess of the legislature of any state, the executive thereof may make temporary appointments until the next meeting of the legislature, which shall then fill such vacancies.

No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the age of thirty years, and been nine years a citizen of the United States and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state for which he shall be chosen.

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided.

The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the office of President of the United States.

The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present.

Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.

Section 4. The times, places and manner of holding elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each state by the legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by law make or alter such regulations, except as to the places of choosing Senators.

The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.

Section 5. Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members, and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business; but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the attendance of absent members, in such manner, and under such penalties as each House may provide.

Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and, with the concurrence of two thirds, expel a member.

Each House shall keep a journal of its proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such parts as may in their judgment require secrecy; and the yeas and nays of the members of either House on any question shall, at the desire of one fifth of those present, be entered on the journal.

Neither House, during the session of Congress, shall, without the consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

Section 6. The Senators and Representatives shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the treasury of the United States. They shall in all cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any speech or debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other place.

No Senator or Representative shall, during the time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time: and no person holding any office under the United States, shall be a member of either House during his continuance in office.

Section 7. All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.

Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.

Every order, resolution, or vote to which the concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the same shall take effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the rules and limitations prescribed in the case of a bill.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

Section 9. The migration or importation of such persons as any of the states now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each person.

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

No tax or duty shall be laid on articles exported from any state.

No preference shall be given by any regulation of commerce or revenue to the ports of one state over those of another: nor shall vessels bound to, or from, one state, be obliged to enter, clear or pay duties in another.

No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.

No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

Section 10. No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.

No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.


Sorry for the civics lesson, but I thought it would be useful for us all to take a look at what our Constitution actually says about the legislative and executive branches. There's a tendancy (nowadays, anyway) to think that the President runs the country. In my view, he doesn't - the congress does for all practical purposes in accordance with our constitution.

Alan
bassman10096
Senior Member
Username: bassman10096

Post Number: 1188
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 7:38 pm:   Edit Post

Alan: You couldn't be more correct. Presidents have the ability to create their own mayhem, but the scope of the President's power is far more limited than Congress'. The President can have lots of informal influence with Congress (especially if the President's party holds the majority), if he/she plays his cards right. The President can move public opinion, but can't do much directly about what the public wants. People have always been confused because in most other organizations (businesses, etc) the chief executive actually does run the show.
Bill
ajdover
Senior Member
Username: ajdover

Post Number: 687
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2009 - 7:41 pm:   Edit Post

Bill,

Thanks. I put this out there so we could all get a sense of perspective, regardless of where we are on the political spectrum. I think it does us all a world of good to read the Constitution from time to time - keeps us grounded, I think.

Alan
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke

Post Number: 545
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 3:31 am:   Edit Post

According to this there was widesspread tampering of voting machines....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aBaX9GPSaQ
adriaan
Senior Member
Username: adriaan

Post Number: 2077
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 3:43 am:   Edit Post

Funny how the constitution clearly addresses practical issues (taxation, political representation) of the time when it was written.

Just an observation from across the pond.
richbass939
Senior Member
Username: richbass939

Post Number: 1031
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 6:05 am:   Edit Post

One thing seems to be true -- politics is everywhere --
on the 5th grade playground
on the high school basketball team
at work
in Washington DC
in online clubs

Some people love it, are energized by it, and seek it out. Other people find it draining and try to limit their exposure to it. You can seek out discussions with those with whom you agree so that you can celebrate or commiserate about a situation. You can seek out discussions with those with whom you disagree so that you can argue. Some people want to seek out apolitical discussions so they can just hang and have fun.

Let's say you know someone who opens a part of her home to her friends. They come and go as they wish and discuss a wide range of topics (in agreement and disagreement). Her assistant has said to her guests that she loves the fact that she hosts a place where people come and have such a good time chatting.
At first she doesn't set any rules because the group takes care of itself. Later, a few rules are suggested just so the environment can stay fun.

We might be able to agree on a couple of things.
1) Our relationships with many people on the Alembic club feel more like friendships than chats with people we have never met. Hearing about the illness of Brother Paul has struck me very differently from hearing about problems in the lives of other people I have never met face to face.
2) The way I view some club members has changed somewhat after reading their political views (some of which are very different from mine).

If we want full-on, no-holds-barred political arguments online, those sites are easy to find. The only thing I remember our host and her moderator asking us to do is to please leave certain topics at the door when we come in. I think we should do that, if not out of respect for each other, at least out of respect for her. Mica and Dave are truly hosting the best hang on the internet.
Thanks for listening.
Rich
kmh364
Senior Member
Username: kmh364

Post Number: 2278
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 6:58 am:   Edit Post

I'll reserve comment on Obama until he's been in office a while and actually does something (or has a chance to do something). With such high (unrealistic, IMHO) expectations for his ability to affect positive change coupled with the current dire straights for the US economy helped in no small part by prior administration(s), I'd say he's got his work cut out for him.

I'm waiting to see if people have reason to dance in the streets one year (or four) years into his presidency.

Finally, no, I did not support Obama. I wanted change, but didn't want Obama (nor Mc Cain, for that matter).

To each his own.

I support Flax's (and everyone else's) constitutional right to free speech, as long as it's presented in the right forum. I don't have to agree, don't have to like it, H*ll, I don't even have to read it! But I have to put up with it, just like the rest of you have to put up with mine, LOL!

Cheers,

Kevin

PS, Who do you like for Sun's big game? LOL!
artswork99
Senior Member
Username: artswork99

Post Number: 550
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 7:08 am:   Edit Post

"respect our fellow club members"

What a novel idea!

I have followed this only to see how far it goes... someday this could easily be taken away if we choose contempt.
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 450
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 8:30 am:   Edit Post

Resisting urge to engage in politics . . .

Okay I'm better. Let's kill this thread. Seriously. I know I can't make myself shut my own mouth, and given enough time I will give in to my urges to promote my own perspective. I will certainly offend someone who cherishes the opposing belief. Dave is right. This forum exists for people who wish to celebrate Alembic, and for no other purpose. The fact that the kind folks that run the forum allow us to talk about anything else is a testament to their character. Who else would allow people to openly post opinions that might hurt their business?
precarius
Advanced Member
Username: precarius

Post Number: 266
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 8:37 am:   Edit Post

OHSC= Original Hard Shell Case
funkyjazzjunky
Advanced Member
Username: funkyjazzjunky

Post Number: 322
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 9:05 am:   Edit Post

I love talking politics (I live in Washington, DC so I eat, drink, and dream politics)

But some of our fellow Alembic forum users are having a fit over this so I will respect the wishes of our Moderator and stop.
jbybj
Intermediate Member
Username: jbybj

Post Number: 194
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post

What I recommend to those I care about, and I will include anyone reading this post, is to not let politics make you crazy. Whether the past or the current president makes you nuts, it only serves to undermine your own peace and, doesn't really change anything. I used to get all bent, until I realized that I was only hurting myself. Now, I'm stupidly happy, no matter who is in the white house. What you can do, and for most of us, the only thing we can do, is to vote. So cast your vote, and then let it go.

It's foolish to let words damage you. Andy Partridge said it something like this, "I believe the written word should be forgiven."
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 3505
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 9:49 am:   Edit Post

Alan:

Your Consitutional post reminded me of a suggestion Leno or Letterman said a couple of years ago when Iraq was attempting to draft a constitution:

"Why don't we give them ours ... it worked for over 200 years ... and we don't use it anymore"

(U.S. Constitution: "Section 8. The Congress [NOT the President] shall have power .... To declare war")

Bill, tgo
bsee
Senior Member
Username: bsee

Post Number: 2153
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post

Hey Bill! Personal foul, Bush-bashing on the Alembic boards, 15 yard penalty. It would have been reasonably neutral until the parenthetical addition, but you just had to get the dig in, and that's a good illustration of why we are supposed to refrain from talking politics here.

Of course, you're not the only one who is carrying on after Dave's whistle has blown, just the last one with a conveniently worded post to make my point.

Maybe there's some reasonably neutral political blogging site that one or more of you subscribe to? A place that we could acknowledge is the "official" political discussion venue for those members of the Alembic club who chose to participate. Then everyone who wants to have a political discussion and include some of their Alembic buddies can do it there instead of here.

-bob
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 3506
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post

Bob:

No Bush bashing intended. This particular violation of Constitutional mandate has a long history that goes back more than 50 years to the Korean "police action" and includes most Presidents since then. I think our Constitution is an amazing document, one of the finest creations in the history of mankind. I just think we'd all be better off if the President, members of Congress, and the Supreme Court would bother to actually read it and follow it's dictates.

Bill, tgo
byoung
Senior Member
Username: byoung

Post Number: 1157
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 1:41 pm:   Edit Post

The Constitution: void where prohibited by law.

Not political, just joking.
ajdover
Senior Member
Username: ajdover

Post Number: 688
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 2:47 pm:   Edit Post

Bill,

Therein lies the rub, so to speak. Our congress never declared war against North Korea, North Vietnam, Panama, Somalia, Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan ... take your pick. You'll note that both Democratic and Republican presidents presided over the deployment of forces to these places or near these places. While it is true that the congress never declared war in these instances, the President, in his role as the commander in chief of the Armed forces has the ability to deploy those forces to places he deems necessary for our security.

This being said, the War Powers Resolution is (from Wiki):

"The War Powers Resolution of 1973 is a United States federal law providing that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States is already under attack or serious threat. The War Powers Resolution of 1973 is a United States federal law providing that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States is already under attack or serious threat. The War Powers Resolution requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days without an authorization of the use of military force or a declaration of war.


This is (my guess) how all of our Presidents, from both sides of the aisle, have been able to keep our Armed Forces in places past 60 days. Note the language "The War Powers Resolution requires that the president notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days without an authorization of the use of military force or a declaration of war." In other words, if the congress authorizes it, troops can stay in an area indefinitely. Theoretically, anyway.

The fact is President Bush never had the Constitutional repsonsibility or right to declare war. If our elected Congressmen and Senators felt so strongly about our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan (and elsewhere), they were completely within their rights Constitutionally to call Mr. Bush on the carpet. The fact that they didn't speaks volumes about them as a body and us as a people.

I will say, from personal experience, that I often wondered what our elected leaders were thinking when they decided to send our Armed Forces in harm's way. As a Company Commander in the 82nd Airborne Division, I remember sitting on a cot, unable to sleep, trying to figure out one good reason for our intervention in Haiti. More importantly, I was trying to think of a good reason to provide to my men as to why they would soon be risking their lives (other than the obvious). Same goes for Somalia (started under Bush the Elder, and finished, ignominiously in my opinion, under President Clinton). As to our intervention in Iraq, and speaking only for myself, I've no doubt we did the right thing by removing Saddam from power. Where we screwed up was the aftermath. Lots of blame to go around for that, on both sides of the aisle IMHO.

Before Modder Dave steps in, let me just say I'm not trying to stir anything up. Personally, I think there are fingers that can be pointed in all directions as to the cause of our problems today. Democrats aren't immune, nor are Republicans, Independents, you name it. We're here because, I think, they forgot what the Constitution says. That's why I posted it - if they read it and adhered to what it says, maybe we wouldn't be where we're at today.

My two cents,

Alan
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 451
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 4:28 pm:   Edit Post

I think Bob was right, and that we should take this elsewhere. Anyone have any suggestions?
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 3507
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2009 - 5:31 pm:   Edit Post

Alan:

Don't forget the "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" of 1964. I cannot agree with you more, the fingers can indeed be pointed in every direction. A very wise man once told me there are two kinds of people in this world. The first finds them self in a pit up to their neck in shit, stands there and says "woe is me, I'm up to my neck in shit. It's his fault", or "if I had just done that differently", or "it's not fair". The second finds them self in the same pit and says "I'm in a pit up to my neck in shit. At the moment it really doesn't matter how I got here. What do I do to get out". Personally, I strive to be in the second group.

Bill, tgo

P.S. Nothing above is meant to offend and I'd really be surprised if anyone here finds it offensive.
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke

Post Number: 546
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 7:18 am:   Edit Post

"I think Bob was right, and that we should take this elsewhere. Anyone have any suggestions?"

http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=47
mike1762
Advanced Member
Username: mike1762

Post Number: 248
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post

Nice forum Greg... I added a post about the virtues of Alembic over Fender basses. The thread was taken down and I got banned.
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke

Post Number: 548
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post

haha.wouldnt surprise me (but you are kidding right?)..im one of the only conservatives on that forum...its always good to go over there and get the lefties riled up...
mike1762
Advanced Member
Username: mike1762

Post Number: 249
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 2:15 pm:   Edit Post

Yea, I was kidding. We need some of those smiley things to substitute for body language. I'm very apolitical, but I enjoy a good argument as much as the next guy... that looked like a good place to have one!!!
dadabass2001
Senior Member
Username: dadabass2001

Post Number: 999
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2009 - 9:22 pm:   Edit Post

Mike,
if you check the Help/Instructions link at the bottom of the page, you can put up various predefined smileys with keystroke codes (like uploading pics or adding links).


Mike
white_cloud
Senior Member
Username: white_cloud

Post Number: 596
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 4:12 am:   Edit Post

In response to the original question I would say it is a promising start. However, it must be remembered that Obama IS a politician and therefore will have a certain distaste for the truth and integrity. He is also merely a figure head, one man!

The world doesnt just want him to succeed though...it desperately needs him to! These are dangerous times.

The calamitous era of Bush has left the world a much more dangerous and unstable place - and has increased bad feeling towards the USA considerably. In my opinion Bush was far more of an inspiration to the recruitment of terrorists than Bin Laden ever could have been.

The invasion of Iraq bore no relevance or connection whatsoever to the tragedy of 9/11 (weapons of mass destruction? No, weapons of mass delusion!) - in fact a more relevant response would have been a US led invasion of Saudi Arabia - but that was never going to happen was it!?!?!?

Britain is a strong ally of the US but the groundswell of opinion here on being led into such a pointless waste of life was a resounding "not in our name!" Unfortunately we were similarly burdened with a leader of limited vision. In fact the less said about him the better - how nauseating to see him awarded a medal from Bush for his "friendship." Most people here in the UK would not extend any friendship towards him at all.

My country was also horified at the Bush led governments shocking lack of support for those Americans in New Orleans left ravaged by natural disaster - to the outside world it was clear; some Americans are more important than others.

Good luck Obama...you need it.
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke

Post Number: 549
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 6:22 am:   Edit Post

Also, as to whether or not this forum is appropriate for political opinion, one of the joys I find in visiting this forum is that it generally lacks political talk that may set my blood boiling...I go to other forums for that...

Maybe a political talk only forum should be started for those that wish to engage in those discussions.
pas
Intermediate Member
Username: pas

Post Number: 155
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 6:39 am:   Edit Post

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE...end this thread now. I realize that I'm in the distinct minority here as a conservative libertarian, but this thread was BLATANTLY inappropriate for this forum from the start.
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 696
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 7:34 am:   Edit Post

Totally agree with pas
bassman10096
Senior Member
Username: bassman10096

Post Number: 1191
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 8:38 am:   Edit Post

Me too. I can't seem to walk away from it on my own - kind of like a car wreck with fatalities.
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 7480
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Monday, February 02, 2009 - 8:40 am:   Edit Post

The following story is a poorly written work of fiction.

There was a guitar shop, in a small town not too far down the road from the big city. The shop was opened by two sisters who loved guitars and loved playing them. It was a small shop, and the inventory was older guitars, mostly acoustic, some arch tops, a few mandolins, etc. The shop itself was an old stand alone building, at an intersection just outside of town, that had once served as a general store. The sisters would always have a pot of coffee on, and there was the smell of baked goods in the air, and the folks that came by the shop loved pulling down an old guitar, and sitting down with a cup of coffee and some homemade bread and jam, and picking and talking for a while. All kinds of pickers would come in; there were the bluegrass pickers from out in the county, and jazz folks from the big city, and blues lovers, and the folkies, and many, many others. The sisters would keep the place open late on the weekend nights; and the jam sessions drew folks in from miles around. As the pickers all grew to know each other, they would start sharing personal stories; the farmers would talk about the weather and how it was affecting their crops, the city folks had stories about traffic and road construction, there was the occasional story about a family illness, and they all had a laugh about the misspelled advertising sign out on the highway near the town limits. One night, when folks were just talking more than picking, the conversation quite innocently turned to politics, and it wasnít long before a few things were said that some folks in the room found quite objectionable, and some of those folks responded with a few opinions that others equally found objectionable. Over time, there were some who would continue these types of discussions at the weekly jam sessions, and when they would meet in the store at other times as well, and would revel in the intensity. There were others however who never said anything, who tended to pack up their guitars and quietly leave the sessions whenever the conversation would turn to politics. And over time, the attendance at the sessions thinned out. Some of the pickers found other places to gather, some just found other things to do. Another guitar shop opened up closer to the big city. Rising property taxes and utility rates added to the falling amount of traffic in the store. Eventually, the sisters closed their shop.

Hereís another work of fiction.

There was a factory by the river just outside the big city. Nearby residents began to notice that the factory was dumping waste into the river. Citizens began to speak up about the dumping at county board meetings, and they wrote letters to the editor of the local newspaper, and the made hand painted signs and picketed in front of the factory. The local teevee station showed up with cameras and ran a three minute story on the evening news. Sales began to go down at the factory, and the county began putting pressure on the factoryís management. The management decided to stop dumping waste in the river.

Freedom of speech is a very useful tool. The citizens of every community should be watchful of their governments, and should speak out about injustice.

However.

As has been stated by many in this forum in the past, it is not necessarily a good idea to go into someoneís home, or someoneís place of business, and just say anything you want. If you are newly married, and you are invited to the home of your new in-laws, itís probably not a good idea to announce at the dinner table that the person they just voted for in the recent election is a liar and a crook, and that anybody who voted for such a person is a fool.

No matter what you may think of the last US president, when he left office he still had the support of roughly one in four Americans. Now there are a significant number of Americans in our little global community here in the Alembic club; thus it is not unreasonable to suggest that, roughly, one in four of the Americans who are members of this club, who are your friends here in this club, supported the last president. When you make disparaging remarks about that president, you make disparaging remarks about a significant number of your fellow club members, your friends; and it is not unreasonable to suggest that you are making those disparaging remarks in someoneís private home or shop.

When you go to Alembic.com, right there on the front page is a link to this club. Itís as if you walked in the front door of the shop, and over there just past the new basses is a door to a room with couches and chairs and coffee and pastries. And right there on the back wall of the room is a window where you can watch the instruments being built. And youíre standing at the window beside someone whose new guitar is right there on the setup table, and one of the shop owners is taking pictures of it. And sitting there on the couches and tables, enjoying each otherís company, talking about guitars and basses and music and musicians, and talking about the weather and about their families and their businesses, are folks who love hanging out here by the shop, who love the instruments that the family that owns the shop makes.

While it is certainly reasonable that we have strong political positions, and while it is certainly reasonable that we would want to voice those positions, it is also reasonable that there should be some places where political differences are left behind, where we can sit down together and enjoy the things that we share in common. I do not think it unreasonable to suggest that when you say disparaging things about someoneís political positions or spiritual practices, that person may find that they prefer to spend their time someplace else. And it does not seem unreasonable to suggest that this place being the Alembic club, being a part of Alembic.com, that we should endeavor to treat each other, to be respectful of each other, in such a way as to not drive our fellow members of the Alembic community away from and out of this little living room just off the main entrance to Alembic.com.

Neither Mica nor I have any desire to close threads. However, given the tenor of this thread and the requests stated above that it be closed, I reluctantly feel that it might be a good thing in this case.

Some of you will react negatively to my comments, and that is certainly understandable. And please know that it is not my intention to say things that you may find to be hurtfully directed toward you. This is a wonderful community, and my intention here with this post is to do what I can to help make this place a community that we all can find welcoming and warm.

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