| Author | Message | ||
| john_judge
Junior Username: john_judge Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2009 |
Members please read, this was a discussion and go to the John Judge story for more detail, I would like to hear from as many as you as possible thanks, it goes like this, Rami was suggesting that I design another custom ultimate doubleneck Bass for the giveaway... For the record Rami I would be honored to design a Double neck for the giveaway and be present to give it to the winner, but I think it is more than right to get a majority vote from the members here first and approval from Alembic for me to do that. I think the presentation needs to be at the mothership or one of the large Alembic club gatherings. I actually have a design in mind that will blow you away including Alembic. Now as far as the giveaway, we can maybe do it 1 of 2 ways, either it goes to one of the club members from a drawing, or we can do the you tube thing and let some one battle it out or we can ask about advertising it through the mothership and see if they want to oversee it. Well we need time factor maybe a great Xmas present for someone. Well I think now this needs to be on a separate thread called the custom doubleneck giveaway so we can get some feedback about the idea and all members idea's are welcome for discussion, Well I will check post on friday again take care John | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 514 Registered: 3-2004 |
I like the idea of voting on Youtube for an up-and-coming musician who lacks only a quality instrument. But I also like the idea of a raffle, because I know we would all love a shot at a custom, whether we are professionals, amateurs, collectors, or otherwise. I am concerned that if such a project were to proceed, that it would be an expensive undertaking. It might be easiest to defray such costs if everyone contributes, but then I would expect more people will want a shot at owning the instrument, rather than providing a donation. In any case, I love the idea, and will watch with anticipation. (Message edited by hydrargyrum on April 27, 2009) | ||
| keurosix
Senior Member Username: keurosix Post Number: 405 Registered: 10-2005 |
One of the original ideas was for it to be a raffle ($100.00 ?) and open to club members and/or anyone who wants to pay to play. I think in all practical purposes, a single neck fretted custom (4 or 5 string?) with some really cool features (1 - ebony neck lam, LED's, a special circuit, and a special design body or inlay) would be a win-win situation. After all, a lot more people would NOT win, rather than the one prize winner - but it would be worth the gamble, right? Maybe a nice cocobolo top, and a new body style that JJ could have already dreamed up? Very tempting!! Kris | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 2317 Registered: 3-2004 |
I agree that, in spite of the John Judge connection, the practical interest in a doubleneck is pretty minimal. A credit against a custom build based upon the income generated or some other instrument that might generate wider interest makes more sense. It would also bring our thin-stringed siblings into the picture. If there is excess cash, additional prizes in the form of preamps or strings might be offered as consolation prizes. | ||
| peoplechipper
Intermediate Member Username: peoplechipper Post Number: 102 Registered: 2-2009 |
I guess this all depends on how much John Judge is driving this bus; If he's the man, then it's gotta be his design...if it's just a raffle, it's a raffle...a doubleneck could actually force me to learn some early RUSH tunes, but my Chiropractor would hate you all if I got such a beast....Tony | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 2318 Registered: 3-2004 |
An instrument can be progressive and uniquely designed without having two necks and a 20 lb weight. Shapes, wood selections, inlays and electronics can all be tweaked to the heart's content. I could see going with a design that specifies all of these things without specifying the number of strings, or even if it is guitar, bass or something in between. | ||
| gregduboc
Intermediate Member Username: gregduboc Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2008 |
Where do I buy my raffle ticket??  I think the raffle is a great way to do it. It makes money available for the prize, and gives us, Alembic super-fans, a chance of getting such an exclusive and marvelous prize. A double-neck would be one of the greatest addition to any bass collection. No doubt. But perhaps, having a single neck and a couple of other prized as well like Bob said, might look more interesting for the participants... Greg | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 2323 Registered: 2-2006 |
While I think the "youtube" idea would be fun I vote for the raffle. It gives everyone an equal chance. I like the suggestion (ramis I believe) of $10 a ticket. Although I'm not sure 2000 tickets would cover the cost of a double neck Series instrument. At $10 a ticket everyone can involved as where $100 a shot may leave out some members. This way if you can afford 1 ticket or 100 tickets you can take part in the fun. There are other things to consider on the legal aspect; Taxes ($20k+ raises an eyebrow), can it be open only to forum members, while it is a raffle it is still considered gambling and will it be legal in the host state and if so can tickets be sold in other states? These are just a few of the things that may come into play. I may “over-concerned” about big brother sticking his nose in but I’d rather address the issues and not need to, than not address them and need to. Anyway, where do I buy my ticket(s). OO | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3759 Registered: 7-2004 |
4 or 5 strings? Doubleneck? I'll be watching from the sidelines unless winner gets to choose the instrument. Bill, tgo | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 907 Registered: 6-2002 |
A doubleneck doesn't have to be a gigantic super heavy creature. It can be based on the short-scale series I and be simple in design. One fretted and one fretless 4 string necks. I don't want to influence any design thoughts here, but just to say that it doesn't have to be too extreme. It still has to have more general appeal for playability and weight as well. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 516 Registered: 3-2004 |
I like the idea of $10 a ticket. I personally just can't justify a $100 gamble. I also like Bob's suggestion that we need not necessarily adhere to the double neck idea. I like the idea of John choosing the various design elements, but leaving the final decision of whether it is to be a guitar/bass/baritone/mandolin or some combination of the four, to the final winner. How fun would it be to watch this progress in the factory to customer section? | ||
| john_judge
Junior Username: john_judge Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2009 |
Just happen to catch some of the comments on the way out the door< I agree it doesn't have to be a doubleneck, but I do have some new concept designs for both a single and a double neck, that could even introduce a new design to Alembic. Yes I have been thinking about being very practical for the user at the same time. We can also leave some options opened to the winner, like if he or she wants a single neck or a double where that person may have to pay the difference for the additional neck and so on if the final numbers are short, but yes I do think it would be nice to be able to award maybe 5 or 10 prizes to the club and although the you tube thing would be fun to see the battle I feel it needs to remain in the club only. As far as the raffle, tax and gambling there are proper ways to get around that and keeping things legal, so that's not a big issue. I think this would be a wonderful thing for the club to get together, my only concern and question is will we have enough participants to collect $10.00 a pop from and how long would it take. I think that maybe there should be some form of a limit on ticket purchases maybe 10 per person, just to keep the odds fair for the club. Well got to go just had a moment, I'll post more details Friday and I guess I need to place a call to Alembic regarding this. take care John | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2009 |
I agree with Kevin but I can tell you one thing, I am not sure what design John has in mind but I have personally seen several of his drawings and I will tell you this if the choice is a double neck I know he has a lot of the weight problem solved probably by at least 10lbs off what it would be. Some of the designs I seen are very classic and some very futuristically done and make powerful statements. John has made some beautiful things out of wood and is a large Art collector of surealism stuff such as Dali, Frazetta and Boris. One thing I can say is, what ever he creates it will be one of a kind because he has a very vivid imagination. I remember John was one day recording a Bass track and sampled it into a keyboard to have better control over it, he was using a drum stick to hit the strings with. 6 months later he told me that he was watching Peter Gabriel live and seen Bass player Tony Levin banging these sticks taped to his finger on the strings! I told him he should of marketed some form of it. he took it a step further, but I will save that for him to show you in person. John told me he plans to attend some Alembic gatherings. Anyway I agree with the raffle Idea. John is a really good artist for coming up with unusual stuff and practical purposes. Count me in either way, I will take 5 tickets (Message edited by gyonnii on April 28, 2009) | ||
| 57basstra
Senior Member Username: 57basstra Post Number: 890 Registered: 4-2005 |
I'm very interested and would like to participate. I like the idea of a raffle so that everyone has a shot. I know of lots of players who have sacrificed in some areas of life to be able to have the instruments they own. If we personally know of some kind soul who needs some assistance in affording a new Alembic then we can personally buy a ticket in that person's name. | ||
| kenbass4
Advanced Member Username: kenbass4 Post Number: 342 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think it's an interesting idea, but again I think that Alembic players are as individual as the instruments, and what's one person's dream will be another's nightmare (see the cone peghead discusions) Personally, if I got a doubleneck, it would be a fretted 4-string bass and a 12-string guitar (ala Mike Rutherford), but I know that probably wouldn't be what many other's would choose. I think the best way to choose would be a random drawing to keep the chances even. Ken (TEO) | ||
| dela217
Senior Member Username: dela217 Post Number: 956 Registered: 6-2002 |
What about an instrument to be built AFTER the winner is chosen? That way it will be up to the individual. I also don't think that $100 a shot is out of the question. But who will hold the funds? Alembic? | ||
| senmen
Senior Member Username: senmen Post Number: 847 Registered: 7-2003 |
John, Guys, really cool idea. And 100 bucks is not that big thing for everyone. I like the idea of having it buildt after the winner was chosen. Cheers Oliver (Spyderman) | ||
| jedisan
Member Username: jedisan Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2008 |
Count me in... although I think John should be the overall designer, and maybe a few details left to the winner. Heck, it even sounds like John has a quiver of designs that the winner could choose from as well. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 518 Registered: 3-2004 |
Well, I for one would find $100 to be prohibitive. I know it isn't much in the grand scheme, but it just isn't within the means of my budget at the moment. It would certainly limit the number of tickets/improve the odds of winning if the price was $100, but I don't think it would be that hard to sell 2000 $10 tickets either. Maybe impose a 10 ticket per member limit. A winner could be drawn after all tickets were sold, with construction to begin thereafter upon the instrument type of the winner's choice, with all final design choices left to John except those related to playing ergonomics (no need to damage anyone's hands). Anyway, just a thought. | ||
| lowlife
Advanced Member Username: lowlife Post Number: 364 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have to agree with Hydrargyrum. $100 for a ticket is not in my budget at the moment either, but I could certaily scrape up enough for 1 or 2 $10 tickets. And construction after the drawing also makes sense to me. Just my 2 cents (2.2 cents Canadian) | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3760 Registered: 7-2004 |
Not to throw a wet blanket on the excitement but, as someone who has done some fund raising, I suggest to you all that selling 2000 tickets will be quite an undertaking and an extremely optimistic goal. And many seem ready to cut out the guitar players right out of the gate! Perhaps this thread should more aptly be in the "dreaming" section? Bill, tgo | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 7966 Registered: 5-2002 |
I just wanted to quickly interject that Olie makes two important points. If you sell 2,000 tickets at $10 each, the winner will have taxable income of $20,000. Depending on your bracket and your state, this could mean between $4,500 and $8,000 out of pocket to the winner. His second point is that this sounds really close to violating gambling laws; thus part of the $20,000 may need to be spent on an attorney to make sure that the contest is set up properly. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 463 Registered: 10-2006 |
1) Yes, I would love a John Judge-designed double-neck for $10-100! 2) Yes, I would much rather have my own design for $10-$100 (& it might well be a guitar) 3) Yes, this is probably the only way I'll ever get either, so if Olie & Dave's concerns can be addressed, I'm definitely in for a few $10 chances - I'd have negotiate pretty hard w/SWMBO for a $100 one, though! 4) Yes, keep it in the club - we're a pretty nice bunch, whereas the Youtube thing could get ugly (though I'm sure none of us has ever met an a**hole musician!) 5) So, in conclusion, winner-designed, low ticket price, members-only, if the tax/gambling crap can be sorted. Peter Oh, one more concern - we'd need a mechanism for refund if the ticket sales were insufficient. | ||
| kenbass4
Advanced Member Username: kenbass4 Post Number: 343 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, I think there are certainly a lot of issues that would have to be resolved first, and I think that if it does happen, it would need to be winners choice to allow EVERYONE to participate. (Hey Bill, you could play the top half of my doubleneck choice, doesn't that count? :-) ) I do think this is more of a "dreaming" thread, but it does have some interesting ideas coming out in it. I'd be in for a few $10 tickets, or even 1 $100 if the timing's right. | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2009 |
No refund, if there are not enough ticket sales generated than we divide it up into prize raffle and use it to purchase maybe a preamp from Alembic 1st prize some strings and T shirts 4&5 etc... As far as the money thing goes there would be no taxable income if we can get the mothership to set up a trust fund and then it just becomes a purchase by the owner the only taxes that can possible happen that if the winner ends in California or if Alembic chooses that the Bass goes through a authorized dealer than you would pick up your instrument at that dealer and have to pay sales tax on it...which I would gladly do for ownership for am Alembic so lets see if we can work it all out and if we can then lets go for it I say $10.00 a pop limited to 10 tickets per member no more...I will call a friend of mine who is an attorney to research to see if it is possible...if it is legal then we go for it and if it's not then we don't and yes the winner gets to pick final design approval wether it has 10 necks or 1 whether it's a guitar or Bass etc...as long as the money is there or they are willing to add the difference. | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 908 Registered: 6-2002 |
Guys, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. I think the winner should sign a claim form stating that he/she understands that there may be taxes and/or duties involved that are beyond the control or responsibility of Alembic. With that said, if he/she refuses or cannot pay these potential charges, he/she forfeits the prize and it is reclaimed by Alembic and is awarded to a new winner by the same random process. No refunds. Simple. Accept the terms or don't participate. No coddling or special exceptions. Leave the design 100% in the hands of the genius designer (John Judge) and let's not impede his creativity with details. Let the artist perform his craft. When he comes up with his final design, we can jump in and buy our tickets (before it's built). | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2009 |
Ok this is what my friend found out so far... Private lotteries There are three sub-categories of private lottery that qualify as exempt lotteries: Private society lottery – these can only be promoted by authorised members of a society, and tickets can only be sold to other members of that same society, or to persons on the society premises. The lottery may only be promoted for a purpose for which the society is conducted, and the society can be any group or society, provided it is not established and conducted for purposes connected to gambling. Examples of this type of lottery would include those limited to members of a working men’s club or a sports club, where guests at the club would not be permitted to participate. In other words as a society or club, it would have to be conducted as a lottery within the club or society and the prize must be something that pertains to the club such as a Bass or guitar and as long as the club or society is not formed for purely gambling we should be OK, No money can be awarded if there is not enough to complete the custom, then a preamp, or strings etc..Is fine because it pertain;s to the club, anything with Alembic on it. And who ever collects the money can not retain it past the set drawing time otherwise that becomes something totally different and the IRS then comes into play unless you are a tax exempt organization. Last but not least we have to make sure that Lotteries are legal in the state of the money Custodian..My friend is going to research it more for us but this is what he has come up with so far and the only other way is it to be in the form of a contest with an entree fee within the club with no outsiders, anyone outside the club makes it Illegal So it has to be called a Lottery or a contest, based on Knowledge or skill etcc... but cannot be called a raffle | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 909 Registered: 6-2002 |
I just hope we're not setting the management of Alembic up for a MAJOR HEADACHE! Sorry Mica! This just came out of my "Doubleneck Dream" thread. I wouldn't want a dream to turn into a headache. | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2009 |
Agreed! Thats why John wanted to clear it with Alembic and get some of there input on the idea first. If we can come to an agreement on the legal way to do it and the mothership is comfortable with it then John will do it full blown otherwise he will drop it like a hot potato, The whole idea was it to be hassle free and something nice from the club to one lucky person. I just talked to him by phone approximately 1 hour ago and told me that he will contact Alembic personally on friday morning when he gets back. | ||
| room037
Advanced Member Username: room037 Post Number: 263 Registered: 9-2003 |
It's available for worldwide under dealership, isn't it ? I agree somepoints. 1: It will be raffle. $10/1 ticket, 10 tickets/1 persons. 2: The designer is "Mr. John Judge" himself. This is his premium. 3: I wish to be controled under membership. Because I hate the winner sell it for the money. If Alembic will support officially, I wish the custom option ticket for second prize. It wiil be invitational tickets for new custom owner. I don't know the gambling laws in USA or international, but I wish it will be done. Eiji from Japan | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3764 Registered: 7-2004 |
I appreciate Greg's friend giving advice, but I suspect the laws will be different in each state in the U.S. and then each of our other-than-USA members will have their own laws to deal with. I really don't think there is one set of laws that will cover everyone's situation. Bill, tlgo (the lawyer guitar one - Paul would be proud!) | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 1096 Registered: 6-2002 |
I would hope to be in on the $10/ticket, club raffle idea. Assuming I can avoid foreclosure...  Mike | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2009 |
Yes the only Laws that will apply is where/which state the money is sent to, as far as the participants it will depend on there country if out of the U.S. if showed as a gift or what Custom issues they may have, so if you live in New york and the money is sent to Texas, then the laws apply to Texas Lottery laws. It's like if I buy a Lottery ticket in Georgia and I am living in South Carolina, South Carolina can't touch me but I have to abide by Georgia and pay the taxes there on my winnings. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3766 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't know about South Carolina, but California levies income tax on residents' out of state earnings. Like I said above, the laws are different in each state. Unless Greg's friend has researched each individual state's laws, the legal opinion shouldn't be relied upon. Bill, tgo | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 520 Registered: 3-2004 |
Why do I get the feeling that this idea will fizzle out because of petty legal issues? How about we make it a double-secret raffle, and just don't tell the government? | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 587 Registered: 1-2005 |
Recently, the religious organization that I work for (based in California) did a raffle - something like $20.00 per ticket, with a grand prize of $10,000 - and found out half way through that it was illegal to sell the raffle tickets to people out of state! So they had to refund all those people, as they weren't eligible to participate. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 521 Registered: 3-2004 |
What's that fizzling sound I'm hearing? /lives in Missouri | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 588 Registered: 1-2005 |
There may be ways to work around it, just pointing out that there would need to be careful understanding of the legal ramifications. Which sucks of course! It seems like a great idea. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 465 Registered: 10-2006 |
I have the solution! Since I would obviously win anyway, to get around the raffle, each of you could just send Alembic $100 in my name........ Peter | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2009 |
the key element is the club within itself, call it annual dues for club membership and as long as we do not sell a number to anyone outside the club we can get around it, call it a raffle or lottery or contest but as long as it is contained within...I mean come on..I am not going to call the IRS and say I just won an Alembic Bass..if I did that I would cut my hands off and never play Bass again. Amen to that! each one of us could write on a piece of paper 5 numbers of any combonation and if it is duplicated then you will be notified to pick another one and send it in with the money in case there is a duplicate from another member which I doubt. Maybe Mica could post the winning number and then arragements can be made for the presentation and winner can pick what design he wants as far as neck etc...or necks within the buget | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 522 Registered: 3-2004 |
I hear what you are saying Greg, and I know I certainly wouldn't run to pay taxes on such a prize (not that I would fore go them either). Unfortunately, I am afraid Alembic would by association become entangled in some way in the legal ramifications if someone chose to disregard applicable laws. I really don't know for sure if this is true(I'm not a lawyer like Bill, but I respect the reservations he has voiced), but these are my suspicions. (Message edited by hydrargyrum on April 29, 2009) | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2009 |
Yes I agree, I spoke with John today moments ago and he plans to contact Alembic before things get too far ahead and I know although he may not like the IRS that he will not do anything like this unless we have a legal loophole and trump card to play. He will only do this if it is by the book, or we have a way around the book without any illegal hauntings. I trust John completely and I know he will fully research it before he say's get your ticket's now. This post he told me was just to see if their were enough interested people willing to partake in such a drawing and if so then to spend the time to research the possibility of making it a reality | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3767 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hey, lets all engage in an illegal conspiracy to avoid taxes and talk about here on the internet. Nobody will ever know! (yea, right). Count me out. Dear IRS, Dept. of Justice, and various state law enforcement entities: I am not part of this. Bill, tgo | ||
| jerryme
Member Username: jerryme Post Number: 90 Registered: 1-2008 |
Ditto... | ||
| jerryme
Member Username: jerryme Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2008 |
That said, if the prize was lowered to a "gift certificate" to Alembic for say $7,000 (just enough for me to purchase the "kit" guitar or a stage Further (oh baby) I would beg to pay the taxes on such as prize won after purchasing 3 $10 chances. Lets make this happen, and but only if it does not cause a coniption or otherwise bother on the people I (we) look up to and hold in such high regard. (go Alembic!) | ||
| rami
Senior Member Username: rami Post Number: 910 Registered: 6-2002 |
I think the my most practical option is just to try to save up the old fashioned way and get exactly what I want - back to the "Dreaming...For Now" threads for me. I'm outta here.  | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2009 |
All I got to say is that if it can be done legal then let it happen otherwise it won't and this tread will end but we all found out one thing everyone loves Alembic's and whether or not you pay taxes or hate the IRS well whatever...this is not about the bull going on in our economy this is about owning a Bass guitar. people give things away everyday and organize functions and activities, So if it is found to be Legal than I will buy my ticket and if it is not then I won't, it's just that simple, but everyone seems to want to make it complicated with Issues, There has been no intentions here to Make this anyway shape or form an Illegal venture and I know for a fact from speaking with John that he told me that wasn't going to happen if he had anything to do with this. His bottom line message to me and everyone wanting to know was it will be done 100% legal or not done at all. So if anyone is thinking about doing it any other way than you are on your own. But I know John was calling some attorney to check on all the possible options to see if it was possible for this to happen. John will be posting on friday when he get's back before going back to Miami so maybe he will have some answers then. | ||
| rraymond
Advanced Member Username: rraymond Post Number: 354 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have in front of me the November 1996 edition of "Bass Player" magazine. The subtitle of Jim Roberts' "From The Editor" column is "Giveaway Grievances." He states that he had been asked why nearly all their foreign readers were excluded from the contests. The giveaways were, as of November 1996, open to readers in the United States and Canada, except for the province of Quebec. Simply put, they have to comply with the law. He goes on to say that in most countries the laws governing "raffles and contests" are strict and are there to protect the participants of the contests. Unfortunately, the required expenditure in time and money to ensure compliance with the laws in all those jurisdictions made it impossible for them to offer the contest to all readers. They had to settle for compliance with the majority of reader locations. For example, he stated that in Quebec, they would have to post a bond which guaranteed the value of the prize and the rules would have to be published in French as well as English. Please, don't even try to put this headache on Alembic. | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 28 Registered: 3-2009 |
that is a different type of giveaway my friend when you offer outside a club or society and go public with it then you have to do many more things to comply with laws and reg's from all around instead of just one state, that much I read myself which it is called conducting a private Lottery. | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2009 |
This came off of google How to Run a Raffle or Prize Draw Lotteries, raffles and prize draws are some of the most popular types of fundraising, and for good reason - they require a minimal investment from participants (with a sizeable potential windfall) and can be quite profitable for charities and organisations too. Rules and regulations for lotteries are stricter than other fundraising activities; however, do not let that put you off. You can seek advice from your local authority, the Gambling Commission, the Institute of Fundraising, or refer to the Gambling Act 2005 for legislative information. Here's some general advice on setting up and running a lottery, prize draw or raffle: Running A Private Lottery By far the most popular type of lottery is a private lottery. Tickets may only be sold to one group of people, but this type of lottery does not need to be licensed by the Gambling Commission. The most common types of private lotteries are: Work lotteries Residents' lotteries Private membership club lotteries,... this would apply to US So anyone who is worried that they are gambling you slleep better tonight, next stop IRS and institute of fundraising the key word's here are private lottery, club members and tickets sold to only one group of people such as the Alembic club who were are all registered members of...Have no fear homework and research is being done and if it is legal it will be done, that is if you all want it to happen peace everyone and let's keep it that way between ourselves (Message edited by gyonnii on April 29, 2009) | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2009 |
One more thing found rules on private lottery are as follow and states that it may not be advertised except (society) Alembic club among ourselves Private Lottery Conditions Private lotteries must comply with conditions relating to advertising which state that no advertisement for a private society, work or residents lottery may be displayed or distributed except at the society or work premises, or the relevant residence, or sent to any other premises. Private lotteries must comply with the conditions set out in the Gambling Act to tickets. In summary these are: A ticket in a private lottery may be sold or supplied only by or on behalf of the promoters Tickets (and the rights they represent) are non transferable Each ticket must state the name of the promoter of the lottery, the person to whom the promoter can sell or supply tickets and the fact that they are non-transferable. The price paid for each ticket in a private lottery must be the same, must be shown on the ticket and must be paid to the promoters of the lottery before any person is given a ticket. I am posting this information so that you will know that this is public information in our government | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 523 Registered: 3-2004 |
not that I would fore go them either Just to be clear, I am in no way advocating breaking the law. I should have said I wouldn't run gleefully to pay the taxes (but I wouldn't lie either. Jeez the level of paranoia is running high here. Beware the thought police! | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 2326 Registered: 2-2006 |
"High" and "paranoia" usually hang out in the same "joints". (rimshot please). OO | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3768 Registered: 7-2004 |
I can see it now: "Next case, State vs. Group of Bass Players. Bailiff, bring the defendants into the courtroom. Alembic club bass players, you have been charged with several violations of the law. How do you plead?" "We're innocent. Our defense is that google said we could do it!" Somehow, I don't think this is going to work. Let me say it again, clearly, so everyone can understand. EACH STATE HAS ITS OWN LAWS. EACH COUNTRY HAS ITS OWN LAWS. Contrary to what Google, Wikipedia, Yahoo, Ask Jeeves, or any other internet search may claim, there is no "one size fits all" method. And "I read it on the internet" is not an accepted defense in a criminal case (which, by coincidence, is the type of law I've been practicing for over 20 years. You'd think with that much practice I'd get it right! lol). I don't doubt that something could probably be worked out that would allow most members (certainly not all as you guys have already cut out the guitar players) to participate. But it would take a significant amount of research and jumping through hoops the insure there wouldn't be any problems. Certainly more of an effort than "I read it on the internet (the bathroom wall of the 21st century) or "my friend has a friend who knows a the real estate lawyer who says it's o.k." Bill, tngtjgo (the not going to jail guitar one) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 7973 Registered: 5-2002 |
Greg and everyone; This doesn't come up often here, as we seldom have discussions of this type, but in other discussion groups on the internet it is expected practice to cite sources. On political discussion boards, where discussion about laws are common, the phrase "I found this on the internet" would not be acceptable. Generally, one should name the source and, if found on the internet, link to it. For instance, Greg was quoting Ideas Fundraising in his post number 29 above. By linking to the site that is the source for the information that you are presenting, you make it possible for others to better ascertain the reliability and relevance of the information, and/or learn more about the subject matter. | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2009 |
What is it you say Bill lost causes are the one's worth fighting for well, if it can be legal and all the Bases cover then so be it, and if not when all the research is done and whether it is possible to find a common denominator within the group..then bottom line is that we all learned something new about Raffles, lotteries etc...and we are all that much smater or someone is going to get an Alembic for the price of a chance..so for me that is worth fighting for and is a good cause to help a fellow member. I talked with John about all that was going on and he said if it can be done legally then if everyone is comfortable with it then we can do it but John said he will gladly post any form's Law sites government agreement etc... for all to see before a ticket would be sold...And if it can't happen than it can't and we will all just dream about what might of been but if it's anyone is needing help in the design area he would gladly help anyway he can. | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 6095 Registered: 6-2000 |
My initial reaction is that as nice as a raffle for a dream instrument sounds, I don't have the inclination to dedicate the necessary resources to get the legalities worked out. In fact, I just blew that entire budget on a new juicy truckload of wood. So for now, it's back to dreaming. | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 524 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yeah, who could blame you Mica. It seems sad to me that a group of adults can't make a friendly agreement of this sort without having to to consult international law. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3769 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is a shame that the law must poke its unwelcome nose into so many corners of our lives. But I regularly run into people who don't bother to ascertain the relevant laws and regulations, or proceed based on "a friend told me" or "I read it on the internet". I call these people "clients". Of course if someone wanted to do the necessary research and whatever tasks are necessary to make this work, or pay to retain an attorney experienced in this field, it could be a lot of fun - especially if a winner could pick their own instrument (maybe one of those melodic ones without the big cables?) I just know that I don't know the applicable law in this area, but I know enough to stay away unless someone who does know can put it together safely for all involved AND in such a way that we don't distract the elves in Santa Rosa from their appointed rounds. Bill, tgo | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 525 Registered: 3-2004 |
You're correct Bill. Ignorance of the law is certainly never a valid excuse in a court of law. On the other hand, our society has reached a point where the law has become incomprehensible to the majority of the citizens which it governs. In some cases, it has violated the rules of common decency, trust, and the respect of fellow man. I think that when a club so enlightened and admirable as this one is unable to engage it what should be a such a simple proposition as a friendly raffle, that we have in some way failed in our mission of democracy, and thereby personal freedom. And the same be said of any other country and its philosophies who would so restrict its citizens. /end rant | ||
| gyonnii
Junior Username: gyonnii Post Number: 32 Registered: 3-2009 |
I also agree it is sad that we cannot have just a friendly raffle or lottery among ourselves without worry about getting drawn and quartered or a public stoning by our government just because they want a hand in the pie. All I can tell you is that John's Music lawyer whose brother is a Civil attorney who for some time worked with the Gambling Commission in D.C. is doing some research about it and is going to let John know if it is possible, cost effective, permits needed etc... So possibly we will have some answers by the weekend or monday. I hope we can get it worked out and if not then what can we say except we tried! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 7983 Registered: 5-2002 |
The following is an off the cuff gross generalization of societies (large communities) and their laws, and is not a discussion of any law in particular. This post also dangerously nears the realm of politics; and since the moderator finds such realm to be problematic, I shall endeavor to keep this discussion free of leanings either left or right. Kevin; in my view, one reason we have such laws is that at some point in the past we as a society noted that unscrupulous people were taking advantage of others, and we as a society decided that having some rules would be a good idea. While the raffle discussed here may indeed be among members who are "enlightened" and "admirable", so many in the past were not, and thus we as a society felt that some rules were needed. It's somewhat similar to the fact that you are probably an amazingly astute and safe driver; but experience has shown us that there are quite a few others who are not nearly as astute and safe as you are, and that thus it's probably a good idea to have traffic laws. And yes the laws we end up with turn out to be a burden on some of us. And the reason they get so convoluted is that each time we the people pass a law for the betterment of all, there will be those with money who will find very good attorneys to find loopholes for them; thus we are continually having to patch loopholes. The speed limit signs on the side of the road would perhaps be more reasonable if they said "Kevin and Dave - no speed limit needed, all others 55". But it might be a bit impractical. Thus we have to live with that particular burden as members of a society that overall benefits from speed limit laws. I'm not an attorney, but in my work I deal with tax laws all the time. The recent requirement that you obtain and retain a receipt for a charitable contribution over a certain dollar amount was not instituted because the IRS thought the printer industry needed to sell more toner. Unfortunately there was a significant problem with some of our fellow citizens lying about their charitable contributions so that they would bear less of the cost of maintaining our country than the rest of us. It's kind of like when you're at your computer and a spam email arrives in your email selling "meds" and you know that people are being taken advantage of, and you wonder why in the world can't these people be stopped. Or perhaps an even better example is when your computer gets hit by a virus or trojan horse. There are unscrupulous and selfish people who will try to take advantage of the rest of us. Thus we as a society find it necessary to have rules, laws, the purpose of which is to make the functioning of our society better for all of us. And yes, you are right; the laws in many areas have become so complex as to be "incomprehensible". But I don't think it is because we have "failed" as a democracy. I think it is more because of the actions of those who would subvert the law for their own selfish ends no matter the cost to others. For to allow such anti-social greed run rampant behavior to go unchecked would indeed be a "failure" of our democracy and personal freedom. But yes, clearly there are laws on the books that should be revisited from time to time, cleaned up, rewritten, readdressed. Of course that's just my off the cuff gross generalization view. Others can quite understandably have differing perspectives. And in fact, I'm sure my own perspective on such a complex and voluminous subject changes all the time. I guess we as a society try to do the best we can for all of us. It's cumbersome, and at times it's not very pretty; but we as a people do care for each other, so we continue to do our best for each other. | ||
| robinc
Intermediate Member Username: robinc Post Number: 148 Registered: 5-2008 |
that was well articulated, dave. | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 2214 Registered: 10-2002 |
In my mind, the only voice that really counts here is the Mothership's and Mica has already said it's a no-go so I can't see the point in perpetuating the idea that john judge is going to get his lawyer to sort it all out. As a 'F'rnr' I'd probably have been excluded anyway, and as a I'm saving for my big birthday trip in a couple of years I've already excluded myself from any non-essential expenditure. Now where did I hide the kids' college fund? Graeme | ||
| john_judge
Junior Username: john_judge Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2009 |
Good morning everyone, just got back this morning and like I said for the record here if the Mothership doesn't feel the need for this to happen right now than I had already said that I wouldn't agree to take on a project without the support of Alembic's approval. It sounds like on this post we gave birth to a District Attorney while I was gone anyway! LOL! Meanwhile my attorney has and will continue to gather some information on it in case things change down the road. but for it is worth it was great to see all the response's here from the club and the coming together that happened. If I can be of any further assistance to anyone who needs help with a custom design or anything else, then please feel free to email me direct or post here. By the way lottery and raffles are illegal in Alabama and I believe he told me Wyoming also. Just for the record this was not my originally my idea, but it was worth all the effort that went into it because, If I can make someone's dream come true for them to own a custom Alembic, I would feel like I gave birth to a new Bass player, cause when you have a Alembic it's one thing, but when you have a custom well...your playing seems to grow to super human ability Why because you are expressing yourself on yourself to and with yourself, As the Artist you are ..You then have the ultimate brush..Your Custom Alembic Bass!..Go custom when you can! peace everyone Musically yours, and all the best to everyone here.. John Judge (Message edited by john judge on May 01, 2009) | ||
| serialnumber12
Advanced Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 396 Registered: 12-2004 |
 If it's going to be a double neck how about a design based on the "Old & the new alembic look" such as my old #12,one Gleaming with antique Brass & the other with beautiful woods..... | ||
| hydrargyrum
Senior Member Username: hydrargyrum Post Number: 526 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dave, I hear what you are saying, and to be fair, my job exists pretty much because Environmental Laws are needlessly complicated (so where would I be without them?). I think it is funny you mentioned traffic laws though. I think this is one of the best examples of the law adhering to common sense. If you don't drive on the right side of the road, you get hit. Fail to stop for a signal, and you might hit someone else. On the other hand, in my line of work I assign codes designated by the EPA to hazardous chemicals so they can be properly disposed of. Benzene alone might receive five different codes, based on whether it is used as a reagent, used as a solvent, unused (i.e. new), used but not as a solvent and present in flammable concentrations, or used not as a solvent, but still present at regulatory levels, or present below regulatory and flammable levels. Funny thing is, the stuff gets burned in the same toxic waste incinerator regardless of the codes we apply (except for the stuff that isn't flammable, or in concentration above regulatory levels). Fail to code it correctly though, and you can expect thousands of dollars in fines. In the end, benzene is benzene. Personally I do see this as a failure of the legislature that causes needless complication. They may have started out with good intentions, but we all know about that road to hell. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 2323 Registered: 3-2004 |
John, I was thinking the same thing. There are many here who would love your input for their custom instruments to push some of the traditional limits. If you're really willing to help, then I'm sure the occasional member could benefit from your expertise. I'm sure that there are also plenty of members who would prefer a traditional Alembic instrument with all the history that comes with it. If a raffle of sorts is ever held, the winner should be in a position to travel whichever path is preferred. As a side note, there's another famous designer of custom Alembics who deserves equal respect. Valentino has come up with some of the most beautiful and elegant shapes ever carved. Here's hoping he's doing well out there, and that he remains an inspiration for future custom designs as well. -bob | ||
| 57basstra
Senior Member Username: 57basstra Post Number: 905 Registered: 4-2005 |
This has been a fun and interesting thread to read and follow. Kudos go to all in sharing ideas, insight, input, enthusiasm, discretion, creativity, and proper decorum. It is good to be able to put ideas on the table for lively debate and discussion. The movement of ideas (dreams) toward reality is usually not an easy endeavor; but is the essence of civilization. My dream Alembic is a double-neck with a four or five string bass and a six string guitar. I think I have asked this before: is there such an Alembic? Have a great first weekend in May everyone! | ||
| john_judge
Junior Username: john_judge Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2009 |
Very nicely put by David Ross I couldn't of said it any better myself! The thought sharing process was great to show how a Club can interact in creativity , but also in concern for the safety of each other and as a group. The law is the law and we must abide by them or some lucky winner or promoter might of suffered from the outcome. Anyway if things ever change I will post and let you all know...Until then happy posting! |
