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flaxattack
Senior Member
Username: flaxattack

Post Number: 2293
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post

This will be my last post. Some of you might be happy. Especially Dave Houck and the rest of you oversensitive jerks.
My post on the chinese has been removed because one or some of you found it "offensive" because YOU read more into it than others. Some putz found it "profane".
so if one or few people find something not to their liking, the post gets whacked.
i have been a member of this site for a long time. in that time i have seen a steady decline in the quality and content of some of the conversations in here. many of my old friends dont bother coming here or posting anymore.
WHY? Because dave has now become the master of free speech. Dave now determines what is and what is not to be posted on the site. So the thread is now called post what dave likes or if someone has an issue that is THEIR problem and not others and emails dave, he'll say that others have complained. Horse----.
i have always held the position that this was OUR thread. not dave's. But apparently he thinks he is "cool" so he has the right to censor. If someone throws up a reply in a thread that the thread offends etc, he is now compelled to do whatever he wants for the good of the rest of us.
Purely subjective and nothing more than that.

If i had made my post "hosed' by the chinese and a firemen found it offensive, dave will whack the thread. If someone posts something retarded like i spend all day hearing the f word and i dont want to see it in the site, however stupid the remark dave feels compelled to censor. and if you call someone out on it. Dave sensors it.
Some of you folks in here are spineless oversensitive morons. You'd sooner be s--t all over than stand up than defend yourself because you dont want to "offend" anyone. Youre offended by the least little negative thing. This is the real world for you. Pass the thorazine please.
Ive had friends BANNED from the site for speaking up on issues, speaking their mind, and worst of all offending dave houck.

To my friends in here. keep in touch
to the rest of you- read my mind!
To Dave- shame on you dude. youve turned into an old close minded fart.
jerryme
Intermediate Member
Username: jerryme

Post Number: 123
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post

No offense Flax but the Alembic board does not exactly seem like the place to air out your political opinions... From a fellow deadhead my advice would be to take yourself a little less seriously!

Colin
mike1762
Advanced Member
Username: mike1762

Post Number: 349
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post

Ouch!!! Honestly, I think Dave has a completely thankless (and unpaid) job. He has allowed many of the more diversive threads to run much longer than I would have. I've been on the receiving end of a few condescending posts and it stings. While I know Alembic had nothing to do with those posts, it occured on the Alembic Club forum and I can't help but associate that feeling of (mild) humiliation with Alembic. I think that is what the moderator is here to prevent. This is NOT an open bulletin board and Alembic wants everyone's experience here to be a positive one since (rightly or wrongly) it DOES reflect on their company. That being said, I generally enjoy Jeff's posts and I will miss him.
the_mule
Senior Member
Username: the_mule

Post Number: 740
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post

Jeff, there's other places to vent remarks that touch on the xenophobic, luckily this board isn't one of them. Not solely your responsibility because you can't influence the even more questionable responses it yielded, but your thread simply turned into a disgrace to this forum. Should have been cancelled after only a few replies. Replace the "Chinese" in the topic title with "Americans" and it would have been in a heartbeat. Not impressed by the way you handle this, and you attacking Dave, the best moderator I've ever encountered on any forum in the world wide wastelands, is totally uncalled for.

Wilfred

(Message edited by the_mule on August 02, 2009)
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke

Post Number: 616
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 1:31 pm:   Edit Post

I dunno. If this is about the made in china drywall thread that was recently closed I really didnt see anything very offensive or xenophobic about it, and didnt see any personal attacks hidden in there. As a matter of fact I found it informative, as I had not yet heard about that issue.

Anyway, hope you stick around Jeff...go light a fat one and unwind.
jet_powers
Senior Member
Username: jet_powers

Post Number: 462
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 3:02 pm:   Edit Post

Let's see. Trouble with people in bands. Trouble with people on this site. Hmmm. What's the common denominator here? Then again, what do I know? I'm an oversensitive jerk... or a spineless oversensitive moron. I never realized this about myself. How enlightening! Thanks!

Oh yeah, what glocke said.....

(Message edited by jet_powers on August 02, 2009)
dnburgess
Senior Member
Username: dnburgess

Post Number: 640
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 3:07 pm:   Edit Post

Which part of "racial vilification" don't you understand?

This is not the place for it.
eligilam
Intermediate Member
Username: eligilam

Post Number: 193
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 3:23 pm:   Edit Post

I love the Alembic club posting site. It's great (for me) for a few reasons:

1. Pictures and discussions of awesome, expensive basses and guitars.

2. A helpful crowd that can usually come up with an answer to any musically-related question I happen to have, from recording to wiring to scales and theory to mp3's, etc.

3. A diverse crowd that can chime in with a plethora of experiences on most musically-related subjects.

4. The occasional "heated thread." Common players here include/included the_eight_string_king, our buddy flax, Toma_hawk01/Hal/hendrixclarke, and other colorful characters. A lot of times, these threads, while entertaining, would make me slap my forehead and think "I can't believe so many people take this board so seriously."

5. Dave's input and moderating, because I guarantee that any davehouck post longer than 2 or three lines will contain some pithy nuggets that are well-worded, multi-faceted, and just plain interesting.

Thanks to all, including flax and Dave, for making this an interesting place to visit a couple of times a day!
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 636
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 3:42 pm:   Edit Post

I would be the "putz" who found your thread profane Jeff. My suggestion would be that you continue to post (leaving solves nothing), and try not to take things so personally yourself. Dave is just trying to protect Alembic's business. Let's just keep it to instruments shall we? You can go just about anywhere else on the internet for the other stuff. I don't think staying on topic is a limitation of speech (it's just respectful).

/no hard feelings from me
john_judge
Intermediate Member
Username: john_judge

Post Number: 127
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 4:45 pm:   Edit Post

I never commented on this post because the topic did not really have anything for me to contribute until now, my freedom of choice was post or not to post, but always I think it out before I do so I am fairly prepared for what may come from the thread, like opinions discussions and debates.

As far as equipment and factory goods go, yes I I must say my first car was a lemon that was american made, my first bass was Chinese cheaply made, then I bought a american made strat that the headstock broke off while I was sitting there playing it, then a Korean acoustic guitar that the bridge came up unglued...and here's the Biggest one of all for ya!.. My custom made double neck Alembic Bass arrived with a cracked seperation in the Lams behind the fretless and with a short in the Leds on the eight string neck...After I waited 14 months for it. But I am here talking with people.
Yeah somethings are clicky around here but that's life everywhere. certain people pair up because they choose to or they relate more or have communicated to each other through email which I do the same myself.

Bottom line I chose to buy all these things, and I did purchase an Apex 460 Chinese mic for $80.00 that when I replaced the tube in it I can put it next to my Neumann U87 and I can barely tell a difference and most other people never will. So the bottom line is buy what you like and hope it all works out and if not then change your flavor, or deal with it. There are many ways to express one's self , but yes everyone has the right to stay here and talk or get out, it's that simple, but I choose to reason out the facts first. my Final thought here is when I start a new thread I think about it first to see if it's gonna stir the pot too much and if I think its going to then I have plan "B" to smooth it out such Like the case of the raffle, what most people didn't know that I emailed Mica and told here about how the debates on it were going so she then stepped in and made the comment to end the idea
crobbins
Senior Member
Username: crobbins

Post Number: 419
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 5:36 pm:   Edit Post

I like Chinese food. Mmmmm sweet and sour chicken... :-)
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck

Post Number: 8485
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 5:38 pm:   Edit Post

Jeff has been a member here for a long time and has posted a lot of messages; so I tend to think of him as someone that I know, at least to the extent that you can know someone through online contact. Knowing him to the extent that I do, the things he cares about, his relationship with his family, his art, his music, knowing these things to the extent that I do, I have developed a great amount of respect for him. And knowing him to the extent that I do, just through the personal contact of this board over many years, I think of him as a friend. And again, knowing him to the extent that I do, limited to the extent that you can know someone solely through online contact, I have a great amount of compassion for Jeff. From where I sit, extensively limited a vantage point as it is, its my feeling that Jeff has endured much pain in his life. But also from where I sit, I feel very strongly that Jeff has a good heart; he is a very caring person.

Each of us has walked a unique and extraordinary path in life, and no one else can know what it is to walk our particular path. Jeffs post at the top of this thread may appear to be about me, but I believe there is a lot more going on beneath the surface; stuff that has nothing to do with the Alembic club. All of us have stuff going on; stuff that from time to time can overwhelm us; stuff that can affect the way we react to stimuli. I can certainly understand that Jeff, or anyone else, would react when finding that I had deleted the text of his post. And for each of us, the way we react to such situations is affected by other stuff going on in our lives at the moment.

Jeff and I share a lot in common, our views on social issues, our love of the Grateful Dead, our love of Alembic instruments and our respect for the makers of those instruments. I cant know what hes been through in his life, or what he is going through now, but I do know that he has a good heart; he is a good person, and he is certainly worthy of my compassion.

So, I do hope that each of you will take into consideration the broader context within which this thread, and this club, occur. Personally, I wish I lived closer to Jeff so that we could sit down together and talk. The person to person stuff just works a lot better than the online stuff. But we dont. So, I hope Jeff remains a member of our community. But whether or not he chooses to do so, I do hope the best for him and his family. He has a good heart, and I hope that he finds happiness wherever his path leads.
afrobeat_fool
Junior
Username: afrobeat_fool

Post Number: 34
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 5:40 pm:   Edit Post

Yeah, I hope you stay Jeff. I too appreciate the diversity and knowledge all of you bring to the site. I am proud to be here, and respect all of the opinions and positions here stated. Everyone seems very genuine, and I did not take the post as anything other than one persons need to share his experience. ESPECIALLY, when the post turned to Global irresponsibility, and people successfully defended China's craftsman industry.
Thanks, Nick
pauldo
Advanced Member
Username: pauldo

Post Number: 221
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 7:05 pm:   Edit Post

yep - what they said. :-|
I don't know but I really wanted to jump into the Chinese thread, I may have actually posted once - I have ALL KINDS OF OPINIONS about buying local and why we should - but as Dave mentioned it is often very VERY difficult if not impossible to get certain points across via a keyboard and monitor....

Jeff - I forgive quite readily (I think it is because I also forget quite readily - but that was probably all the weed in my formative years...) - what I'm trying to say is don't be afraid to chill for awhile and then come back and stay apart of this community.
shao
New
Username: shao

Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 7:05 pm:   Edit Post

I have quit this forum before, myself. I joined this forum under the name of Thomas, when it first came out, forgot my password and joined again later under a new name, and became a senior member that most people on this board know. Paul was under a 100 posts, believe it or not. However, it got to the point where some members were playing the elite speakers, admonishing others for their comments, so I just deleted my account and left. I came back recently so I could look through the for sale stuff, and read the Misc. section sometimes. You know, the section that is made for any subject to be discussed. As for Dave (and some of you others), I am in agreement with Flax. At times, I wish Dave would just shut up with his 'feelings' crap that he dishes out. Be as much of a psycho-babble guru as you want, but quit telling people you understand much of anything about them. Know that some people do not like your interjects, and cponsider what you have to say as offensive. I have eaten enough crap from you over the years, so have a serving of mine for a change. If you are going to 'uphold the rules of the board,' then do just that. There is no need to write paragraph after paragraph of crap 'explaining' the situation and how you understand how others feel about it.

BTW - I thought the title of Flax's post's was in bad taste and a bit thoughtless, but I did not feel the need to bandy about a senior member over it. OK, carry on. I vented, so now I'm just here for the sales news, again. Y'all have fun now.
dannobasso
Senior Member
Username: dannobasso

Post Number: 1079
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 7:26 pm:   Edit Post

I find a very effective and therapeutic mode of operation is to type a response........ and here is the best part.......... don't post. Not everyone cares what everyone thinks every time.
Jeff was kind enough to travel to NJ to buy 2 of my cabinets and I wish him well in his musical, social, family and professional life.

Now to obsess on my bass in build progress.
bsee
Senior Member
Username: bsee

Post Number: 2395
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 02, 2009 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post

When you read Dave's "psycho-babble", it's usually there because some poster crossed a line that Alembic would prefer not be crossed in this forum. That's how he chooses to moderate in many cases rather than editing posts and suspending or banning users as might happen on some other forums. I didn't get to see Jeff's last post on China, but I have to say I was surprised to find that it had been deleted. I can only imagine the tone it must have had to elicit that response. Deleted posts don't happen very often around here, and the post that started this thread remains intact.

It's hard to talk about the China thread, but I will try to be careful. We see so many people in society quick to take offense based upon the way they interpret what someone else has said. Words are an imperfect means of expressing thoughts and feelings. If you're going to take offense at something you read or hear, make sure you understand the meaning behind it first. "Chinese" doesn't necessarily mean "All of China" in the context of the thread, though one could interpret it that way, increasing the potential for offense to be taken. It might just mean "some irresponsible company in China that I can't specifically identify". If Jeff had replaced the word "Chinese" with the name of some giant conglomerate, wouldn't you believe the level of offense taken would have been greatly reduced? This is just a hypothetical example, though, and I hope no one latches onto this to debate Jeff's initial intentions here.

I can't say exactly what the relationship is between Dave's views and those of Alembic management with regard to moderating these boards, but I suspect them to be very much in sync. Mica, Susan and company have more important things to do than to directly moderate these boards. They've asked Dave to do this for them, and we all need to respect that. On occasion, they might have something to say, and I wouldn't be shocked to see a post from them on this thread now that some have called Dave's objectivity into question. There's also moderating going on, that many don't see, via email and even the occasional phone call. Being a senior member provides a historical context in which to view posts that approach or cross lines. It can help those around here to understand where someone is coming from and mitigate the harm that could be done by questionable statements. It's probably a fair part of why the China thread was allowed to remain active even though it was pushing limits. That said, senior members should have the experience to understand and respect Alembic's wishes to begin with. We shouldn't be the ones creating work for the moderator.

Personally, I'd rather see less of the so-called "psycho babble" as well, but only because the important message is too easily lost among all the extra words. If the goal is a clean website, then it should be made clear to any poster when they violate Alembic's posting rules. They shouldn't have to read a parable and try to figure it out for themselves, or believe it to be off-topic and completely ignore it. Of course, that clarity can, and may, occur privately rather than via public post.

As I understand it, this is the Alembic website. These boards exist for reasons related to Alembic and their products, and Alembic wants to keep them friendly to anyone who might want to come here, even for purely business reasons. That means controversial topics unrelated to instrument construction or musical taste really don't belong (but bring on the set neck vs. neck through debates all you want). Personally, I support this philosophy 100%. Many of us lose sight of that periodically, especially those who have been around long enough to think of this as a place where friends come to chat.
grateful
Advanced Member
Username: grateful

Post Number: 302
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 2:27 am:   Edit Post

I'll miss you Jeff, but I have to disagree with your opinion of moder Dave.
white_cloud
Senior Member
Username: white_cloud

Post Number: 724
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 3:40 am:   Edit Post

This is sad to see but Jeff obviously feels very annoyed with elements of the club and has reacted strongly, it is his perogative of course.

I can see both sides of this as I have recently myself become disillusioned with the content here at the club from certain members who shall remain nameless (not through fear - theres just nothing to be achieved in going there!) so much so that I have tried to curtail my involvement in getting involved in petty and pointless arguments.

I also strongly dislike the "elitist" element here at the club, anyone who knows me will know my feelings that the best equipment that money can buy does not make the best musicians!

I am also not into trashing other countries/cultures at all - but I must say that it does seem to me that, as a primarily American forum, some US members are seriously hampered by a lack of real understanding of people & places outwith their own borders.

Sorry folks but this is my honest perception and I dont expect it to go down well here - but I have to be honest in the way I see things or what is the point in posting anything at all!

Dave has a difficult job and in general does it very very well - but he isnt perfect and doesnt know everything.

However do any of us?

John.
serialnumber12
Senior Member
Username: serialnumber12

Post Number: 501
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 5:43 am:   Edit Post

Posting on a forum is like playing a Bass.........you must stay in the pocket!!!
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 637
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 6:34 am:   Edit Post

I just feel sorry for Dave. He does this job for free, and exposes himself to these sorts of personal attacks while clearly trying to do his best to maintain peace. Sorry to be blunt but name calling is juvenile and uncalled for among adults in polite society.
bassilisk
Junior
Username: bassilisk

Post Number: 43
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 8:23 am:   Edit Post

Typically I stay the hell away from threads like this. I've found that honest and emotional discussion is difficult enough when you can have it face to face - trying to do it with written words is better left to people who are blessed with the gift of getting exactly what they're thinking and feeling on paper. I'm not one of those.
I do not personally know the principals in this discussion as I am a newbie here. I am here because I am into Alembic instruments and this is an Alembic forum - what better place to commiserate with people who can explain to me the finer points of owning these beautiful pieces?

Though I am a strong proponent of free speech, I also have to say that I feel there's a time and place to present potentially sensitive views. When I would go to the pub for some relaxing libations the unwritten rule in every one I've frequented is "No politics, No religion". I myself have very strong views in each of these areas - I also know I'm not much interested in someone elses when I want to chill.

This is a bass Forum sponsored by a manufacturer for the use of fans of their product. I like to BS about other things as much as the next guy, but I don't see the point in presenting something I feel strongly about unless it applies to these basses. There are other places that are much more suitable for that kind of thing.

Having said that, I thought this was a pretty calm place with a mature level of interaction. I found that refreshing vs the Talkbass' of the world.

If something rankles you have the option of not posting. Just move on.

This is the first time I've ever addressed anything of this nature and you can be sure I won't do it again. I just love to play and talk about basses. Join me.....
hb3
Senior Member
Username: hb3

Post Number: 412
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 9:47 am:   Edit Post

Look out, Jeff, this is comin' for ya!!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0219/1224241417927.html
funkyjazzjunky
Senior Member
Username: funkyjazzjunky

Post Number: 464
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 9:52 am:   Edit Post

I hope you stay Jeff.

Perhaps we are overly sensitive to those who disagree with us.
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 961
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 9:53 am:   Edit Post

flax..I think you have done this post to wind everyone up..if so then it is a pretty sick thing to do.
Maybe you get some perverse pleasure about putting threads on this forum that really do get people's back's up.The chinese one, the obama one and many more.
As I am from the UK I come here to escape all that shit with politics, exploitation and all the other bad stuff(which I am sure anyone on this forum could fix, they would) which is going on in the world.
There are plenty of other forums out there, some which actually love insults to the other writers!!
Policing is a necessity, if we didn't have it the place would be in anarchy and eventually this site would be shut down and all the wealth of information, the good friendships built, the mutual interest in all the members and the pics of all those superb Alembics would be lost.
If you don't like being censored or told off then go somewhere else, the number of times that I have seen members TRY to lighten the subject matter only to be ignored by you is huge, only for Dave to finally come in and put a stop to it..I mean do you really think he enjoys doing that??
Leave your opinions to the bar where over a few beers you can put the world to rights with people who know you well enough not to get offended and they can walk away and say 'he talks the biggest load of crap ever'
I supported you when you got blown off by bands because we support each other here even though we are separated by thousands of miles but in this case and many others my support for you has dwindled away.
Good luck to whatever you do in the future but one word of advice...Keep it to yourself
gare
Senior Member
Username: gare

Post Number: 454
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 10:24 am:   Edit Post

Can't we all just get along ?
Everyone has an opinion (and entitled to them), but they don't have to agree.
So many people both on and off this list take themselves too seriously, and tend to get wordy at times..including myself.
I think the world has become way to sensitive and takes offense to easily. (don't beat me,just my thoughts)
Don't think anybody is going out of their way to be offensive on this list, but merely other peoples perception(s).

Best of luck to you Jeff.

I apologize in advance if anyone takes offense to my babbling.
phylo
Intermediate Member
Username: phylo

Post Number: 121
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post

Dave,

Just a note to let you know that I think you do a great job of moderating this site. As you have had to state, likely to your chagrin, many times, this is a commercial site, not an open chat room.

Arguments and disagreements are one thing. Deliberately insulting, offending and otherwise irritating are a whole 'nother.

To me you have always moderated with, well, moderation and done a fine job of respecting the users and hosts of this site.

Thanks!
senmen
Senior Member
Username: senmen

Post Number: 892
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post

Jeff,Dave,Guys,

I do respect Jeff as I do respect Dave as I do respect everyone in here. We are all humans and each of us is treated different in life.
For me the Alembic forum is like going home to good friends and to talk about an interest we all love.
I did visit numerous forums in the past, not only bass or guitar related, but also watch and pen related, and I must say that our Alembic forum is one of the real peaceful places on earth.

Oliver (Spyderman)
P.S.
Flax, I still dont have the 5string Tribute, but when I get it I would be very happy if you would still be around here to discuss that bass with you, the bass that had been planned by you!
3rd_ray
Advanced Member
Username: 3rd_ray

Post Number: 209
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 5:12 pm:   Edit Post

Flax, my suggestion is to take a trip to Asheville and have a beer with Dave. Seriously. Asheville is a cool place and Dave is a cool guy (whom I've never met).

My favorite post here.... stay in the pocket. That says it all :-)

Mike
hb3
Senior Member
Username: hb3

Post Number: 413
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, August 03, 2009 - 9:12 pm:   Edit Post

In a way, I'm impressed that politics would intrude even on a website like this. Apparently, the feeling that something is amiss is powerful and widespread.
peoplechipper
Intermediate Member
Username: peoplechipper

Post Number: 142
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 1:27 am:   Edit Post

I really hope Flax stays;
This forum is a collection of friends and sometimes friends have to vent about the crap of their lives; as friends we should be here to listen to it and hopefully be constructive...
Being a public forum, it's best to think of here as being like an upscale bar; don't yell and throw things, discuss like civilized people...this place IS a community and all communities have their rabble(thank god) and this communitie's rabble is pretty polite and respectful on the whole...it's sorta funny that this whole company/forum/community was founded by Hippies and the Flax rift was started by a reaction to Totalitarian Capitalism run amok...
If all that was posted here was positive we'd have to change the company name to 'Stepford' or something...but we must try to be polite or constructive...anyway, please stay flax! and everyone relax a little!! a few rants won't destroy anything, but will likely make some people feel better, and the place where their friends are listening/reading is important...thank you all for letting me get my two cents in, Tony.
gyonnii
Junior
Username: gyonnii

Post Number: 46
Registered: 3-2009
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 4:22 am:   Edit Post

Hi everyone, just got back from visiting my uncle in Italy (Naples) and I had a great time there and of course had some great food.
Sorry to see some of the issues that came about from the Chinese thread, but expressing one's view is OK but not at the point of hurting others. Posting for me is to know when to stop and then tell myself point taken and be done with it.

I agree with Tony's comment of this being like a Bar and maybe Dave is like the internet Bartender who hears about your issues and problems and good news, but cross the line and the Bartender can call the bouncers, I mean that's how we should ( I feel) respect this place. As far as anyone not happy posting here, then just need to decide to leave or continue to post as a team here as great sources of information
cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member
Username: cozmik_cowboy

Post Number: 525
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 4:47 am:   Edit Post

Myself, I sort of enjoy when a thread crosses the line, because then we get one of Dave's long posts; they never fail to be well-thought-out, to be well-written, and to make points that need to be made. The only problem with them is they remind me that I can only aspire to Dave's level of grooviness - I'm far too cynical to view the world as positively as he does. Thanks, Dave - you do a great job.
Jeff, we'll miss you. Play them in health & catch lots of fish.

Peter
pas
Intermediate Member
Username: pas

Post Number: 197
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 5:49 am:   Edit Post

"Totalitarian Capitalism run amok..."

If you're gonna keep throwing chum in the water, don't be surprised if sharks come to the surface.
svlilioukalani
Member
Username: svlilioukalani

Post Number: 65
Registered: 6-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 5:52 am:   Edit Post

I work in the field of psychology at a major hospital in the Pacific Northwest. I have specialized in group dynamics and conflict resolution. Yalam, the leading researcher of group dynamics, has determined; in most groups therapy situations, there is a member of the group who acts as a protagonist or an instigator. In group therapy this is very valuable as they are the one's who really get things going. This form is also a group as well as a community. We must also value these members as there the one's who make the form interesting.

But, all groups need a leader or moderator to regulate the behavior of the group members who are testing the limits of the stated goal of the group. I as well as our moderator have found that statements were made that clearly crossed the line of appropriate content. Statements' like,"you oversensitive jerks," "Some putz found it profane," "spineless oversensitive morons," "something retarded," and "you've turned into an old close minded fart." This language seem way over the line to me. And I'm a f---ing sailor.

If the moderator was what Flax claimed him to be, this thread would not be here, and open to discussion. I am very impressed with his ability to not be baited into a conflict, and his attempt at understanding your anger.

I can't help but notice a pattern here. Weeks ago this member was discussing his inability to find people to play music with. It would appear, the man who started this post, may actually be the old close minded fart; who is lost the ability to play well and harmonize with others.

I do not wish to loose any member of our community. I hope that the man who's Personal Quote is "once in a while you get shown the light," will someday see the light.
tbrannon
Senior Member
Username: tbrannon

Post Number: 1075
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 7:07 am:   Edit Post

I just read through this whole thread and checked the calendar... surely it must be April, 1st?

Seriously... this on the Alembic forum? I frequent a ton of online forums and help to moderate a fairly major NFL football forum- this is by far the most open minded, intelligent, respectful and friendly atmosphere to be found online. How hard is it to respect the peace that can be found here?
pocket8
Junior
Username: pocket8

Post Number: 48
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post

Lengthy asides are parenthetical for greater ease of reading.

Folks, I have a thought that may have been kicked around before: if Alembic's forum on their website is an apolitical forum, but we find ourselves to be human enough to want to go outside the limits of the forum and engage in a discourse, possibly spirited, benevolent, or acrimonious, why can we not have a separate, un-endorsed forum for the political comments that people may have?

Specifically, why not construct such a page apart from the Alembic domain name that is outside Alembic's duty to permit or truncate specific comments?

(Semi-coherent rambling and ratiocination follows:

Such limits and efforts towards neutral posting are, to my way of thinking, legitimate and necessary because this forum is endorsed by a business that CANNOT in good conscience and WILL NOT take the liability to explicitly or implicitly endorse something and be litigated and be comprormised financially without letting all of its clients down; thank you for the safeguard you wonderful luthiers and aural-magicians in Nor-Cal!

I love my Spoiler dearly and I love gazing at all the rest of the Santa Rosa 4, 5, and 6-string progeny, AND it allows me great piece of mind that when I get my next paycheck I can finally get the '83 Zebrawood bop gun fixed up and flying high by those magicians who built it in the first place, but I also am staunchly in favor of free-speech and its consequences. Enough so that I have gladly maintained the attitude with a chip on my shoulder that is moderated only by Mill's belief that free speech should only be limited when it harms the collective good. This attiutde has cost me promotions, work, emotional comfort, and advancement academically when free speech has been suppressed in the face of "good social graces" or misused human authority. While I have refined this attitude as I mature, I believe the consequences of sticking up for free speech were worth it each time, and I thank the Man Upstairs that such a situation is NOT the case here on the part of Alembic.

I do not think Flaxattack ought to feel drummed out of the family's online community. I also think that comments that challenge values are legitimate, but there ought to be a separate and elective forum for them that is entirely separate from the Mothership to keep it safe. Further a group of moderators should be elected/ volunteered to run it so that different views are selected to endorse it and no one person is responsible or susceptible to criticizing when a post has been challenged or censored.

Come back Flax. Thank you Dave. Let's all be the family that we really are, and band together even if we tell each other to shut the "F" up sometimes.

Pocket 8
pocket8
Junior
Username: pocket8

Post Number: 49
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post

Lengthy asides are parenthetical for greater ease of reading.

Folks, I have a thought that may have been kicked around before: if Alembic's forum on their website is an apolitical forum, but we find ourselves to be human enough to want to go outside the limits of the forum and engage in a discourse, possibly spirited, benevolent, or acrimonious, why can we not have a separate, un-endorsed forum for the political comments that people may have?

Specifically, why not construct such a page apart from the Alembic domain name that is outside Alembic's duty to permit or truncate specific comments?

(Semi-coherent rambling and ratiocination follows:

Such limits and efforts towards neutral posting are, to my way of thinking, legitimate and necessary because this forum is endorsed by a business that CANNOT in good conscience and WILL NOT take the liability to explicitly or implicitly endorse something and be litigated and be comprormised financially without letting all of its clients down; thank you for the safeguard you wonderful luthiers and aural-magicians in Nor-Cal!

I love my Spoiler dearly and I love gazing at all the rest of the Santa Rosa 4, 5, and 6-string progeny, AND it allows me great piece of mind that when I get my next paycheck I can finally get the '83 Zebrawood bop gun fixed up and flying high by those magicians who built it in the first place, but I also am staunchly in favor of free-speech and its consequences. Enough so that I have gladly maintained the attitude with a chip on my shoulder that is moderated only by Mill's belief that free speech should only be limited when it harms the collective good. This attiutde has cost me promotions, work, emotional comfort, and advancement academically when free speech has been suppressed in the face of "good social graces" or misused human authority. While I have refined this attitude as I mature, I believe the consequences of sticking up for free speech were worth it each time, and I thank the Man Upstairs that such a situation is NOT the case here on the part of Alembic.

I do not think Flaxattack ought to feel drummed out of the family's online community. I also think that comments that challenge values are legitimate, but there ought to be a separate and elective forum for them that is entirely separate from the Mothership to keep it safe. Further a group of moderators should be elected/ volunteered to run it so that different views are selected to endorse it and no one person is responsible or susceptible to criticizing when a post has been challenged or censored.

Come back Flax. Thank you Dave. Let's all be the family that we really are, and band together even if we tell each other to shut the "F" up sometimes.

Pocket 8
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 639
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post

"I do not think Flaxattack ought to feel drummed out of the family's online community."

To be fair, Jeff is welcome here any time (unless I am much mistaken). He has chosen to leave because he disagrees with the moderator and dislikes the opinions of some of the club members (myself included). I've always enjoyed Jeff's posts, and truly bear him no ill will. I've enjoyed watching his custom builds, and can remember his fishing threads, and when he lost his cat. I think he should come back, but that is his choice.
pocket8
Junior
Username: pocket8

Post Number: 50
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 6:01 pm:   Edit Post

Ahoy Alembicians,

I want to start by saying that I am grateful that I can post amongst you folks, and that I genuinely hope that everything is as well as can be with you all.

I also believe that Flaxattack is welcome to post where and when-ever he feels like it, but I don't believe that the variety of some of the language used to describe Flax's departure or the reoccuring tone or aspects of his posts is conducive to entreating him back into this online society should others really want him to come back. In short, Flax may not feel that his views are truly welcome in this medium given the tone this thread is taking.

Because written language can be (mis-)read without the benefit of the tone of voice that can frame and help to deliever the message itself, implying that someone is a fascist or an old fart in type solves nothing because the content and intent of the message is going to be lost in the use of ancillary words and phrases. I think this developing trend undermines the decorum of this group of talented and thoughtful musicos.

My point is not to tell people that they ought to or ought not to flip out on someone or that they ought to censor themselves as colorfully as they feel appropriate.

My point is that a different and independent forum that is moderated by several members of the Alembic playing community may be a better choice for more "assertive" online contact because I feel that posting on the website implicates the that the Mothership DOES acquiesce to the tone or content of threads such as these in spite of any disclaimer to the contrary.

Truthfully, in reading the initial post in this thread and some of the responses it has generated, I feel that things are fraying a bit. I do not mean to be a self-contained, pain in the butt moral beacon, because I certainly am not, nor am I here to pass John Judge-ment (a small play on words for levity that I hope works as I envision; if not, Mr. Judge, please forgive me!). I simply feel that it is time for this thread to close because I am not sure it is serving any other purpose than allowing division and derision to creep into the community.

Honestly, I hope I am not angering anyone, as it is not my intent to do so, but merely to voice a hope that we can move this discussion to a different and independent forum that is more removed from this site.

Thank you for letting me say my peace.

So...how about those Padres? (Said as he goes from the frying pan of religion and politics into the fire of professional sports!)

Cheers and best wishes.
flaxattack
Senior Member
Username: flaxattack

Post Number: 2294
Registered: 4-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 9:52 pm:   Edit Post

no jet- maybe youre the asshole...
look in the mirror instead of throwing it back at me insinuating i have issues when you dont know the situations.

i think people have THE right not to put up with being shit on.


i have a low tolerance for bullshit which many members of this site are experts on.

i dont care where it comes from.
toma_hawk01
Junior
Username: toma_hawk01

Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Tuesday, August 04, 2009 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post

I think Flax should stay. I want to jam with him one day.

Flax, you up to it?

For someone who owns all those expensive beautiful basses, and has such a strong opinion on everything, must be a damn good bass player...

Hey, you even said my "Toma_Hawk" bass was ugly too. No harm done, it's cool. At least I know where you are coming from... I have much respect for someone who speaks their mind freely.

May Peace be onto you, Jeff.

(Message edited by Toma_Hawk-01 on August 04, 2009)
jbybj
Advanced Member
Username: jbybj

Post Number: 221
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post

"o jet- maybe youre the asshole...
look in the mirror instead of throwing it back at me insinuating i have issues when you dont know the situations.

i think people have THE right not to put up with being shit on.


i have a low tolerance for bullshit which many members of this site are experts on.

i dont care where it comes from."

Hey Flax! You're back!
pas
Intermediate Member
Username: pas

Post Number: 198
Registered: 3-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 4:42 am:   Edit Post

Stay or go...but please spare us the cursing. Thanks!
jet_powers
Senior Member
Username: jet_powers

Post Number: 463
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 5:37 am:   Edit Post

Hey Flax! You're back!

Maybe I am as you say. It wouldn't be the first time I've been so called. Can that many people be wrong? I can only go by what I have read here and if you read a little closer you'll see I am not the only one to make such an insinuation and further, I stated I don't know. I do know you aren't the only one around here with a low BS threshold...

Glad you took glocke's advice and hope you stick around.
toma_hawk01
Junior
Username: toma_hawk01

Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 7:42 am:   Edit Post

"THE VIEWS EXPRESSED IS NOT NECESSARILY SUPPORTED BY THE SPONSORS AND/OR THE MANAGEMENT OF THIS WEBSITE."

I believe people should have the freedom to say what they want. However, I also believe people who has tainted and vicious view on other human beings, should be watched and monitored.

My last point, and I will shut up...

Before there were an America, a China, an Africa, a Europe, a South America, and so on... we were here as human beings.

We invented borders. Some could say: greater the number of boarders, is proportional to the conflicts borders are the byproduct.

Yet at the same time, with all the many borders, it defines our diversity and Independence.

Such ironies we have...(But it works!)

In the end... birds will sing, flowers will bloom, children will play, and lovers will still love...
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 969
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 8:41 am:   Edit Post

you see..he cannot help himself to throwing insults..is it a perverse trait??
I really do think you should go and vent your feelings somewhere else and not here.
Now I am doing this 'corrupt thread writing', is this what he wants out of everyone??
If he wants to go then let him..I ain't begging him to come back.
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 970
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 9:11 am:   Edit Post

We have two of the bass greats here on this forum, talking to us thru' here as if we were all mates in a bar. JimmyJ, a bass legend, giving advice from tone to wiring, John Judge who sends us personal teaching aids(Chops) so we can all be better bass players. Do you think any of the so called mega stars do this to their fans?
Then there is Dave Houck, moderating this forum which is no thankless task and keeps as neutral as he possibly can(which can be very difficult especially if you have had personal insults thrown at you)
Mica, who advises us all on Alembic parts and problems and takes the time to look up our serial number requests.
Even Ron Wickersham has dropped advice here on the power supply.
So why oh why do we beg for one guy to stay who continues to insult others when there is a massive membership of so many good people??
I do not understand it at all
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 971
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 9:13 am:   Edit Post

We have two of the bass greats here on this forum, talking to us thru' here as if we were all mates in a bar. JimmyJ, a bass legend, giving advice from tone to wiring, John Judge who sends us teaching aids(Chops)to our e mail addresses so we can all be better bass players. Do you think any of the so called mega stars do this to their fans?
Then there is Dave Houck, moderating this forum which is no thankless task and keeps as neutral as he possibly can(which can be very difficult especially if you have had personal insults thrown at you)
Mica, who advises us all on Alembic parts and problems and takes the time to look up our serial number requests.
Even Ron Wickersham has dropped advice here on the power supply.
So why oh why do you all beg for one guy to stay who continues to insult others when there is a massive membership of so many good people??
I do not understand it at all!
phylo
Intermediate Member
Username: phylo

Post Number: 122
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 10:26 am:   Edit Post

Terry, have you watched any American reality TV? Apparently we are drawn to this type of behavior. Maybe it detracts us from our own issues, I dont know.

What was the over/under on how long until Flax posted again?

Are there still any open side bets?
toma_hawk01
Junior
Username: toma_hawk01

Post Number: 25
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post

With all those beautiful Alembics he own, he'll be back. My money says he will exercise his freedoms and jump back in as another alias.

The whole Flax-Attack thing was totally juvenile, and completely unsuitable for me. I don't company myself with people who speaks this way. I demand quality in all forms.
artswork99
Senior Member
Username: artswork99

Post Number: 777
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post

silence is golden... except when I hear the bass
pauldo
Advanced Member
Username: pauldo

Post Number: 222
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 3:53 pm:   Edit Post

Kevin, you wrote:
- " . . . and when he lost his cat. I think he should come back, but that is his choice.

Are you talking about Flax coming back to the group or his cat coming back to him???
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 640
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 5:31 pm:   Edit Post

Well, that cat is deceased, so I expect that its return at this point would not be welcome. In fact we might enter the realm of a "pet cemetery" sort of affair. :-)
mica
Moderator
Username: mica

Post Number: 6287
Registered: 6-2000
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 6:04 pm:   Edit Post

I need to first respond to one point that Jeff made in his leading post on this thread: "Ive had friends BANNED from the site..." with the fact that no poster was ever banned from this site.

From my recollection, I have only deleted 3 posts and I don't think Dave hasn't deleted more than me (not considering obvious duplicates). The number of threads that either of us has locked can't number more than a few. That's really amazing considering:

There have been 132,858 posts on this forum. Nearly all of them are respectful to other members. That's really an accomplishment everyone, so kudos!

There are over 4,000 registered users on the Club and many, many more than that who read here on a regular basis. Can you believe that for the most part we all get along?

All that is evidence that the members and the moderators here do an excellent job of making this an excellent place.

I'd really prefer that everyone participating at the Alembic Club could continue moderating themselves this well. That means moderating your own reaction to something you find offensive and moderating the subject of the thread you are about to start. Like Danny said, "Not everyone cares what everyone thinks every time." Believe it or not, there are many times I choose not to post, yes, the moderator moderates herself.

Have I been offended at things posted on my very own forum? Sure, for about a minute. Then I remember that the words printed on the screen don't necessarily carry the connotation that I first felt when I read them. When I remember that a person I probably know wrote the message, I tend to dismiss those initial bad feelings.

Now, my parents raised me to think of myself as a rather typical person, so I don't think you need any special talent to temper your offensive or defensive response.

I was considering locking this thread, but I think I can trust that the members here will moderate their responses so that I do not need to do so.

edited to omit extraneous article

(Message edited by mica on August 05, 2009)
ajdover
Senior Member
Username: ajdover

Post Number: 728
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 6:33 pm:   Edit Post

After reading through all of this, I'd offer the following:

Flax doesn't want to be here for any number of reasons. Many would like him to stay (to include myself). He's welcome to do so, but if he doesn't feel comfortable doing it that's his choice.

If someone wants to discuss something political, I suggest they include in the thread title line "contact me off forum" or "contact me off line." This way, only those interested in that particular subject will be there.

I am a Republican. Many here are liberals and Democrats, and God only knows that their platform/viewpoints make my blood boil. This being said, I make it a point to take such discussions (politics) off line here. I do it because I don't want to destroy or otherwise sully the general good karma we have here. In short, while I may not agree with a particular club member's political (or other) views, I can agree with him on Alembics. And that's as it should be, I think.

I suggest that any and all wishing to discuss politics, foreign policy, the Presdency, elections, congress, the senate, etc. take it off line. We could avoid a lot of heartache as a result.
serialnumber12
Senior Member
Username: serialnumber12

Post Number: 505
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 6:58 pm:   Edit Post

...................................

(Message edited by serialnumber12 on August 06, 2009)
dlbydgtl
Member
Username: dlbydgtl

Post Number: 65
Registered: 7-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 05, 2009 - 9:20 pm:   Edit Post

Whatever,while you all try to solve the world's problems, i am getting ready to beat the price increase. Seems like that should be the biggest concern right now on a bass forum sight.
bob
Senior Member
Username: bob

Post Number: 858
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 12:40 am:   Edit Post

Having mostly been away from this forum for the past two years, and visiting occasionally over the past few weeks while trying to figure out whether I'd like to prioritize some time to spend here once again, I'm really on the fence about jumping into the discussion. But perhaps doing so will help me figure that out...

I'd like to start (yes, this might be long, so move along now if that will offend you) by offering some historical perspective.

Several of the comments here refer to the forum as primarily (or most importantly) a "manufacturer's site", and almost characterize Dave, even in some favorable depictions, as sort of the hired gun to enforce Alembic's desires regarding the content.

It's hard to describe just how strange that sounds to me. As it happens, I was the one who suggested Dave become our first, and thus far only, moderator. And the striking thing about it, especially in the current context, is that at the time, we weren't looking for someone to police the board at all - "moderator" just happened to be a conventional term, one that was also conveniently pre-configured in the forum software.

What we were really trying to do was figure out how to make the board a more effective resource. Many of the same questions kept coming up over and over, despite the fact that some excellent answers had been provided in the past, but there was no easy way to know that, and while people would happily answer again anyway, it sometimes felt like it wasn't the most effective use of our time.

Dave and I spent some time brainstorming about this, kicked around ideas with Mica and a few others, and as a result you now have a rather extensive FAQ and Must Reads section. I still have an email from Dec. 03 in which Dave and I were having some early discussions about it, though it appears it may have taken about another year to actually get started on the work.

In any case, it's certainly not like Alembic put up a job posting for someone to come in and close unruly threads and censor vulgar language, and I believe it was quite some time before even a single post was edited or deleted. That is most definitely not the job Dave signed up for.

The forum had been largely self-policing, and at the time I don't believe any of us truly felt that we really needed a designated moderator. Sure, there were times when a new member might come in with an unwelcome style based on the more typical online experience, or an existing member might get a little overworked and express themselves in a less than thoughtful manner.

But we generally managed that okay. I remember a classic example, in which Joey (of setup instruction fame) literally told a first-time poster to go home and wash his mouth out with soap, and then come back when he was ready to mind his manners (Joey's got some Southerner in him, after all). He was tough, even brutal, but constructive, and indeed the guy cleaned up his own post and seemed to actually feel more enthusiastic about remaining (I'm not quite sure I remember who it was, but it's possible he is actually involved in the current discussion).

One of the things Joey suggested is that we think of this as being invited to sit down for dinner at the Wickersham family table (maybe this even made it into the posting guidelines, I suppose I should review). Sure, you can have some fun, disagree and maybe get a bit feisty at times, but you keep it civil, and you certainly don't attack one another. And while you might use some different language or explore some off-color topic in a private discussion with one of the guests, you don't do that while you're all sitting around the table together to enjoy a good meal.

However, the family model doesn't really go far enough, partly because this group is so incredibly diverse. I suspect we had fewer flare ups in the earlier days, when the group was smaller and somewhat more intimate, partly because there was a statistically lower chance that some individual would be offended, or riled up enough to escalate a discussion into an argument. Even when that did happen, it was usually pretty easy to get things settled down and back on track.

It was actually quite a while before the posting guidelines evolved to the point of effectively banning religious, political, and similar discussions (though as some have noted, there remains a surprising leniency in that regard). Personally I was somewhat resistant to that direction, but I also know without a doubt that it was a grassroots sort of thing. The majority of people clearly favored a comfortable, friendly place to visit, with the focus on Alembic, and music more generally (and sometimes beer and bikes).

When I started catching up here a few weeks ago, I was really stunned to discover at least a couple of threads that had recently been closed, and another one or two that seemed clearly headed in that direction. I'm not sure this had never happened before, but I am convinced there were more in just a few months than in the preceding several years, and that was disappointing.

I can't help wondering whether Dave might eventually come to resent my getting him into this (well no, not Dave); more seriously, I worry that it will become too much of an energy drain and that his priorities will shift to other things at some point. I don't believe Dave needs defending - I just wish his job hadn't become so tough, so he could spend his time on the more positive aspects of participating here.

In that regard, as well as thinking about what would make me more inclined to hang out here again, I happen to feel that some individual time-outs would be a good thing. In Jeff's case, I recall a time some years ago when he explained, with what I interpreted as some pride, where the "attack" portion of his username came from, as exemplified by his opening post in this thread. And I recall another example in which he drove away a new member with an escalating series of abusive posts, apparently because the poor guy didn't express himself very well and said something that didn't sound particularly bright (which I suppose would have relegated him to the "oversensitive moron" category).

Like all of us, Jeff has his ups and downs - the downs aren't pretty, but fortunately we more often got to see his warmer and mellower side. If he can find some other outlet to vent when he needs to, I'd welcome him back in an instant, but if he continues to feel he should be entitled to say whatever he likes here - as seems to be the case at the moment - then at least for me, his return would be premature.

And then there's this other guy, "the one of three names" (so far, anyway). I can't recall seeing any interest here before in implementing a "killfile", but after reading a series of posts one otherwise pleasant Saturday morning, I was seriously thinking about it myself. It seemed to me this person felt one of the main purposes of this forum was to provide him with a soap box and captive audience. For someone who feels that people are interested in reading every seemingly random thought, and indisputable opinion, that crosses his mind, a blog would probably be the better way to go.

I was so overwhelmed by the number and tenor of the posts that I took a break for a while, mulled it over, and eventually decided to make an effort to talk with him about it privately. I spent a full afternoon, and tons of patience and deep breaths, composing a mail that would hopefully be seen as constructive and non-confrontational, suggesting some possible changes in behavior. Then I slept on it, and after a fresh read the next morning decided to hold off on mailing for a few days. Which turned out pretty well, because he then (mostly) retired to his own corner, at least for the time being, and I was no longer forced to listen to him in seemingly every second or third thread I was following.

But there were at least a couple of points I made that I think are relevant to the current discussion. For one thing, I do not happen to believe that the principle of "free speech" applies here. You are not simply entitled to say whatever you damn well please - this is a forum for a reasonably focused set of topics, and it has its own community standards about appropriate behavior.

A second point, which a surprising number of people fail to grasp (not just here, but elsewhere) is that by definition, an "opinion" is not something that can be proven! We all have them, yours may well be different than mine, and I might not even comprehend it - but (assuming it's within the bounds of decency and civility, and not well out of scope) the most I can do is perhaps offer an alternative view, while respecting your right to feel as you do. And then move on. What you do not do, is start yet another thread insisting that your opinion is the only possible valid one, and challenging anyone to "prove" you wrong.

Returning after a lengthy absence, it feels to me like things are getting a bit off track, as someone else mentioned above. That's why I thought I'd offer a little perspective on the "good old days", before we really needed a moderator, let alone on a nearly full time basis.

Certainly, if the consensus of the group is that the forum should shift its nature, and become more of the free-for-all nonsense we see in so many others, then the simple and correct answer for me is to choose not to participate.

I don't have any way of getting an accurate reading on that. I strongly suspect that we're seeing comments here, especially those in support of a more lax policy, from the more outspoken contingent, and it is highly likely that there are a good number of readers (the "oversensitive" ones like myself, but less vocal about it) who aren't being heard.

Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut, especially since I'm more likely to decide that I'd prefer to spend drastically less time in front of a computer, at least for a while, in which case what I think doesn't matter. On the other hand, I thoroughly enjoyed my time here for a number of years, have made several important and lasting friendships, and when I would sometimes send a link to some particular topic that might be of interest to an outsider, it felt good to hear them come back and say something like "wow, what a wonderful and civilized group, I've never seen an online discussion like that!" I can recall at least three separate people that said words to that effect.

Today, I would be embarrassed.

It's easy to say, "why don't we all just try to get along", but in fact, no, that is not possible - when for some people, getting along with everyone else is simply not a priority, nor perhaps even a consideration. Of course, it always takes two, but if you have enough people who simply choose not to "let go", then it can get ugly fast, and often.

As for the suggestion that this thread be closed, that's not really going to solve anything. For one thing, there's the rather obvious challenge Dave would face in contemplating the closure of a thread which was largely critical of his behavior as moderator (setting aside the more personal attacks, which he can probably manage).

More importantly, it feels to me like we may be approaching a crossroads. Communities naturally evolve over time. We seem to have an increasing percentage of newer members; some of the earlier members have left or gone on sabbatical; and for that matter a couple have recently just plain gone belly-up on us (and please, people, you must realize that I mean absolutely no disrespect).

It's not obvious to me that it's an old versus new thing, but I do suspect the influx of new members, and loss of some older ones, has weakened the traditions that largely kept things in balance around here. I find it a sad commentary that the role of moderator has become so important these days, to the point where we may even need a second to share the load, or a third so that they can settle arguments among themselves.

While I could always be surprised, I seriously doubt that Mica or anyone else from Alembic is going to step in and put their foot down. I do believe there are some pretty firm limits - this will never be a forum in which you can get away with calling someone an asshole in every other post - but to a large extent, I think it's up to us to figure out where we want to go from here.

[Okay, I was a little surprised - I wrote this over the last couple of days, before seeing Mica's post. But some of you should find it enlightening to note that what seems to upset her the most, is the suggestion that she would ever consider banning anyone!]

This is by no means just about Jeff, or even another individual or two - I feel like things are shifting, and a lot more people are involved in that to varying degrees. Frankly, I'm surprised by the number of people who are practically begging Jeff to return, so I'd like to end by addressing you (Jeff) directly.

I hope you understand that I truly harbor no ill-will toward you. As it happens, I believe I have a personal friend or two that at times can be even more abrasive or otherwise disagreeable than you (and I hope you don't take that as a personal challenge :-). In a private and mutually-agreeable context, I can sometimes deal with that. But as far as I'm concerned, as long as your approach to participating in a community forum remains as exemplified by both of your posts here, then I would prefer that you give it a little more time.

(Though it shouldn't need repeating, that's just my personal view - I can't speak for the club as a whole, and certainly not on behalf of Alembic.)

No rush. Hopefully, most of us will still be here.

-Bob
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke

Post Number: 620
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 4:33 am:   Edit Post

Well, I was not going post anymore about this because I think most of what needs to be said has already been said, but since I am at the auto shop waiting for my car, I figured I may as well add a few more thoughts.

In my earlier post I mentioned that I did not see anything offensive about the post that started all of this, than I re-read about the name calling that went on and that changed my mind. Name calling and insults on any forum is inappropriate and childish.

As to the possible "xenophobic" topic of that thread, it did not bother me, but admittedly I can be rather xenophobic at times. It is not anything I am proud of (or not "unproud" of), and I don't wear it like a flag, it is just something that has evolved in my way of thinking as a result of interactions with different cultures I have had over the years, with many of those interactions being on the negative side.

That said, the Alembic forum is not a place I would come to in order to express, share or talk about those views. As a matter of fact, what attracts me to this forum is the relative abscence of politcal discourse. I also am a republican, and while I am liberal about many things, I generally lean pretty far to the right. As a result my blood would probably boil over on a regular basis if I visited this forum and had to read political posts on a regular basis. There are enough other places on the internet for those kinds of discussions that there really is no need to taint the Alembic boards with personal political (and social) views that may get other members riled up.

As for moderator Dave, I think he deserves credit that he has stayed out of this topic even though he his mentioned in the original post in a negative way. There are many other boards where this thread would have been closed by the moderator, and the OP would have had his account deleted already.
john_judge
Intermediate Member
Username: john_judge

Post Number: 129
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 7:54 am:   Edit Post

Have you ever lit a firecracker and waited for it to explode and find out it's a dud?...it just fizzles till there is no more spark and if everyone stops posting on this now then this will be a post drifted to the archives.
If anyone needs to say more which I think we covered everything here except for who killed JFK and was Marilyn Monroe bumped off by the Cia,
I mean yes we will still think about it at times but my OPINION is we just need to let this go and if someone thinks of something that is of grave importance then say it but the same thing has been said in so many different ways.
I think its time to let go and if Jeff wants to talk with Dave then let them work it out, maybe a open email invitation to one or the other to see if one is willing to discuss what happened here.
I am not a problem solver here on this topic but I am here to talk with fellow Bassist about the thing I love the most MUSIC and BASS.
This is a pleasant place and I accept everyone here as equal and so should we all. I mean I spent a fortune going to Berkley school of music and half of the discussions that we have talked about for some got free music education and for us older guy veterans it's never to late to learn new things. So now if we could all just look at this and all in favor of ending this post, just post your last word to your Alembic brothers Amen brother!
john_judge
Intermediate Member
Username: john_judge

Post Number: 130
Registered: 4-2009
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 7:55 am:   Edit Post

Amen brother
j_gary
Advanced Member
Username: j_gary

Post Number: 273
Registered: 6-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 8:12 am:   Edit Post

I have been a police officer in the metro Detroit area for 27 years. Have dealt with every type of angel and devil there is. If you miss the kind of man Dave Houck is, bad enough to lash out at him, you are a lost soul. This guy is special, and a far to rare personality on this silly planet.
gare
Senior Member
Username: gare

Post Number: 455
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 8:38 am:   Edit Post

Hear hear John !

Amen brother
pocket8
New
Username: pocket8

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post

Amen Brother.
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq

Post Number: 4034
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post

Boy, am I hesitant to step into this landmine. I feel like a kid whose parents are breaking up and he loves them both. As for the thread that initiated this, it appears to me that those that had problems with it fell into two categories: those who were offended by the use of "the F word" and those who perceived a racist attitude towards Chinese people. As for the first, I wasn't offended at all. I find most of American society's attitudes about curse words to be highly hypocritical and puritanical - we almost all say them everyday, and we all hear them everyday, yet, in our media, we try to pretend they don't exist. Yet, I also understand that some people do find such words offensive and discretion should be followed in their use. Like I told my boy from a very young age, it's one thing to use such language with your friends, but if an adult hears it you're going to get into trouble.

As for the second category, I didn't find it to be racist, but I could see how some people might. 21st century America has an element of "political correctness" that can react against any use of any term that can be applied to any particular group. It can really get to an absurd place (like some people will look at you sideways if you use "black" instead of "African-American").

Either way, I found the complaints about the thread to be perhaps a little over stated and unnecessary.

Flax, you're my friend and (I hope) will continue to be so even if you make good on your exit. And I can understand how you can be upset about having your post deleted. I have watched over the years as Dave has dealt with similar situations on this board. He has a difficult task for which he receives no financial compensation but rather performs it graciously for all our benefit. While I might not perform it 100% the same as he does, I am certainly happy enough with his efforts that I'd much prefer to let him keep doing so than to offer to take over myself. Yes, his lengthy explanations can border on the "touchy feelly", and I understand that some people just don't care for "touchy feelly", but it works for others, including me, and really shouldn't offend anyone else.

There are always going to be posts and threads that rub some members the wrong way. There is one member whose posts drive me nuts, but I try to ignore it and avoid responding. I suspect there are some who find my often twisted sense of humor less funny that I intend. Such is life. In that case it is best for all of us to just move on rather than take it as a personnel affront.

Both Flax and Dave are long term denizens of this site, both have a lot of my respect, and I consider both my friends. I've hung out with Flax on both coasts (he, I, and my son went to the Baseball Hall of Fame together a few years back), and while I was disappointed that Dave couldn't make it to Chicago, I look forward to meeting him personally at some point in the future. Aside from the Alembic/Dead/music similarities you both share that have already been mentioned, I perceive you both as also sharing an altruistic attitude towards your fellow humans. I remember the effort Flax put in to help raise funds for research into an illness that his step-daughter suffers from, as well as the generous support he received from the Alembic community.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I really hope you guys can kiss and make up, or at least shake hands. This site will be less than it was without the Flaxman and his wonderful basses in attendance. And it wouldn't be the same without Modder Dave. If Paul, tbo was here, I suspect he's be suggesting that we all just laugh this off, bang some beer bottles on the table, plug in and make some music. Sounds like a good idea to me.

Bill, tgo
toma_hawk01
Junior
Username: toma_hawk01

Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2009
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 1:29 pm:   Edit Post

I believe some people here believe their comments are more valid than others.

Some people here believe they are above eating, sleeping, drinking, and passing food.

Let's get back to music for it is the one pure thing we have left for GOD sake!

How many people are going to lose any sleep over somebody leaving on they own free will?

It happens, and it will not be the last time...

(Message edited by toma_hawk01 on August 06, 2009)
tubeperson
Member
Username: tubeperson

Post Number: 78
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 2:02 pm:   Edit Post

Ah, all you grasshoppers, this is the power of anger, and most of us have in our lives have let our anger become a destructive force. Hopefully we will learn from this "War and Peace" post, and I certainly agree it is time to move on. There's too much music and playing tips to be learning that became the main reason to have this forum.
bsee
Senior Member
Username: bsee

Post Number: 2396
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 2:47 pm:   Edit Post

I'll second John's point above that the sooner we stop posting to this thread, the sooner it will find its way into the archive.
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 641
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 2:51 pm:   Edit Post

Man, is this thread still going?

I was the dainty individual who was offended by the profanity. I was also disturbed by the perceived generalization that all of China is to blame for the actions of some of its citizens (maybe this wasn't the intention, but I'm not sure, and I am a native speaker of english. What might a customer who isn't as fluent think?). Am I opposed to open discussion of either of these topics (with as many explicatives as you might care to add?)? In any other place, no. I just don't want to see it here. An absence of vitriol is what makes this place unique. Unfortunately, there are some topics that are just too emotional for some folks to show restraint. This thread only reinforces this point.
bracheen
Senior Member
Username: bracheen

Post Number: 1495
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 2:58 pm:   Edit Post

Is that everyone? Are we through now?
57basstra
Senior Member
Username: 57basstra

Post Number: 1041
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 3:28 pm:   Edit Post

No.
I was not going to post, but I do have this to say: -- I am a Democrat and I am proud of it. After the last eight years I can say the Republican party line usually makes my blood boil.

(I am not sure how the Democrats got into the crapper on this one.)
pauldo
Advanced Member
Username: pauldo

Post Number: 224
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 06, 2009 - 8:09 pm:   Edit Post

If the thread won't end maybe we can veer it off course. .... please allow me:
<SNIP>

sorry - I was drunk

(Message edited by pauldo on August 07, 2009)
terryc
Senior Member
Username: terryc

Post Number: 977
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 3:51 am:   Edit Post

pauldo..I think you need to hide in a bunker 'cos it was politics that caused this thread.
cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member
Username: cozmik_cowboy

Post Number: 529
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 4:21 am:   Edit Post

Not gonna say it....not gonna say it.....not gonna say it.............

Peter
cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member
Username: cozmik_cowboy

Post Number: 530
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 4:25 am:   Edit Post

So, tomorrow I'll be racking my latest batch of beer from the primary fermenter to the secondary. It's my first attempt at a nut brown ale, and will be the first time I keg instead of bottling. I'm excited; if you'd like, I'll give a report on the results in about 3 weeks when it's ready.

Peter
lowlife
Advanced Member
Username: lowlife

Post Number: 375
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 4:31 am:   Edit Post

It's about time this became a proper, upstanding honest-to-goodness BEER thread. As someone posted earlier, start banging the glasses and make some noise! Yes, I'd love to read your report.

Ellery (Lowlife)
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum

Post Number: 642
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 5:39 am:   Edit Post

Ooh, I'll b interested to see how using the keg goes.
bsee
Senior Member
Username: bsee

Post Number: 2397
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 8:42 am:   Edit Post

It would be much better if this became an archive thread than a beer thread. We've had almost a week of discussion on the topic and I think all the regulars have had a read of it if not a response. There may be some uncovered ground out there, but I think the various posters have said everything that needs saying.

For any new person coming in, this isn't among the first threads I would want them to read, but of course that's just my opinion. If you're in agreement, though, let's try not to keep this thing bumped to the top of the list any longer than is necessary. Diverting to beer or motorcycles will just keep the rest of it around that much longer. Not to mention that threadjacking is impolite.:-)
jimbobv
Junior
Username: jimbobv

Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 9:58 am:   Edit Post

I quit smoking to afford beer.
I quite drinking to afford life.
I quit Faceb00k out of impatience with bad apps, bad intolerance and general overadvertising.

I occasionally smoke.
I now never drink.
I haven't re-started FB, but when I do I may only post in rant mode.

I miss them all.

Flax, good luck - I miss it all! Then again, I live close to DC!
chuckc
Member
Username: chuckc

Post Number: 59
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 5:09 pm:   Edit Post

I would like to put a motion before the board to close this thread.....Do I get a second????
57basstra
Senior Member
Username: 57basstra

Post Number: 1042
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Friday, August 07, 2009 - 7:56 pm:   Edit Post

I wiIl offer an apology to ALL for the tone and tenor of my post above.

It was reactionary and I am trying to remember (and follow the credo) that discretion is the better part of valor.

This is the only online forum that I frequent regularly. Sometimes I am here several times a day just to look, watch read and post and see how my friends bass players, guitar players or both - all over the Globe are doing.

I think it is so cool to be hooked in electronically or whatevertheheck the internet is with a genius and legend like Ron Wickersham. We are invited guests into the home of Ron and Susan Frates Wickersham and their lovely family, which includes the benevolent Mica.

Alembic is a family company that has never sold out, never compromised its integrity and has never budged an inch on the highest possible quality products. We are all here because of that vision and mission.

This forum offers therapeutic respite for me in an all too chaotic world. I am sorry to have rocked a rocking boat. We are indeed all musicians. I hope we can all continue to play together.

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