| Author | Message | ||
| stevec77
New Username: stevec77 Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2004 |
I just bought an '89 4 string fretless Elan with a new set of d'addario chromes on the bass and that classic fretless tone(mwah)is really there on the G and D strings but not nearly as pronounced on the A and especially not on the E. Is there and way to boost the desired tone in the setup of the bass? (i.e. pickup/bridge adjustment) or, is there a particular brand of string that is known to produce loads of mwah over other brands? Thanks in advance! Steve | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 232 Registered: 9-2002 |
s77: This can cover a lot of ground, but for the short version, I'll assume the action is to your liking. That is, as strung NOW with your D'D Chromes, the string heights, neck feel, etc., is to your liking. Brands of strings are another whole discussion, as you can find in other posts here. (By the way, have you adjusted your intonation with your new strings? Unless your Epic was previously strung with this exact same set, you need to do this first . . . . go ahead, I'll go get some coffee . . . the idea being we want to do pickup adjustment after you are TOTALLY through with ALL string adjustments.) Done? OK. Now go get a small ruler and a small Phillips screwdriver, and a small blade screwdriver. Pickup tone and volume is dependent on height, or more correctly, the distance from the BOTTOM of the strings to the TOP of the pickup covers. As the pickups move closer to the strings, output rises, with a small treble boost and bass rolloff. However, ALEMBIC pickups typically show only a tiny tone shift, if any, due to their 'low impedance' construction. This would be very audible however with the typical Fender/MusicMan/DiMarzio, etc., which are high impedance. So understand that we can tune the tone and output by pickup height, within a range governed by string clearance, action, etc. BUT FIRST, AN IMPORTANT NOTE FROM THE HOME OFFICE IN SANTA ROSA: ALEMBIC uses a pickup height system unlike anyone else, and it's VERY IMPORTANT to understand it BEFORE YOU ADJUST YOUR ALEMBIC PICKUPS. As you look at the pickups, it's strange: You see the four holes but only 2 screws! The OTHER two screws are BENEATH the other 2 holes. This is how you do it: Take the little Phillips screwdriver, reach through the two 'empty' holes, and screw these screws into (down) the body. You'll notice the pickups are now loose, and rattling around a bit. Unscrew the two screws you can see (up); now they're really loose. As you can now figure out, the two screws you can't see set the height, the two you can snug them in place. Got it? Now we can get down to business. Put your bass and treble knobs flat, pan hard left or hard right to isolate each pickup, and work the height until 1) you like the tone and 2) the gain seems even across all four strings. Use your ruler to keep the pickups parallel tto the strings laterally; in other words the G should be the same height as the E over the ends of the pickup. You'll probably wind up with this measure ment in fractions of an inch. THIS should bring in the response evenly across all four strings. We won't worry about the relative volume right now, just go for the tone you like on each pickup separately. As far as a 'factory' setting, there really is no right answer. At this stage we're hunting YOUR tone and an even gain across the strings. When you tighten the pickups, just 'snug' them. It doesn't have to have a REALLY TIGHT torque on the screws, as you could deform or even break the shells. Snug is fine. Now put the pan in the middle (both pickups) and double check the 'combined' tone. You may want to fine tune a little more. Double check your heights with your ruler so you can remember the 'ballpark' you're in, should you need to do this again, and to be sure they are still equally distanced, E to G. Now we'll set the volumes to balance the mix of the two. Take the backplate off the electronic cavity. You'll see two little blue boxes with a white circular hole in each. Look closely and you'll see a slot for the little blade screwdriver. These are separate volume pots for each pickup! Use your pan control, and adjust the two volumes until the mix suits you. Put the backplate on when you're through and you're done. The genius of this is with ANY other bass, after you adjust the pickup heights to get your tone, you're STUCK with whatever the mix ends up to be volume wise. Not on an ALEMBIC. Not to mention there's no foam and woodscrews under the pickups. The pickup screws are machine screws going in and out of threaded inserts that will last forever. Adjust 'em everyday, you'll NEVER wear out the holes as you would on most basses. As this becomes clearer to you, you may find you want to cock your pickups higher or lower on one side, tilt them forward, whatever. But for now, start with the same clearance E to G to use as your baseline, and work out from there. This a subtle process that may take a while. The gain problem should straighten itself out immediately with the ruler. You may chase the tone for a few weeks, however; this is to be expected if you really are searching for the intimately personal sound that ALEMBIC's unique features allow you to find. Which brand of string? Why is the sky blue? Who killed the Kennedys? Ah, the mysteries of life . . . Best of Luck, J o e y | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 870 Registered: 9-2002 |
RRRRRRRRRRUFL ladies and gentle people Brothers and Sisters .................. Brother Joey!!! | ||
| bob
Intermediate Member Username: bob Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2002 |
Damn, Joey, you beat me to it. I was busy writing my own so-called "short version" of a response, and checked before posting. So now I have to revise a little... But first, we can't ignore protocol: Welcome, Steve! Since you're new to the group, I'm guessing this might be your first Alembic? The other clue is that you cross-posted to another topic, and after you've been here even briefly you'll realize that's not necessary - most of the group seem to read everything that shows up regardless of topic, and you'll almost certainly get a number of interesting responses (though some might be a bit puzzling at first..). I happen to play fretless myself, though personally I'm trying to mostly avoid the "classic" fretless tone, and I can't imagine using d'addario chromes... so maybe I can help <g>. Back to you, Joey. As usual, you've written a great description of how to adjust pickups and gain. In fact, it's the first time I recall reading about the possibility of angling the pickups along the length of the strings, rather than just getting them closer to the low or high strings. It's a *really* nice touch that the mounting system allows for this. When I started playing with it myself a couple weeks ago, I mentioned the great sound variations I was getting by tilting the pickups towards the neck or bridge to Mica, and she said "Of course"... Oh well, it doesn't matter who figured it out first, as long as we all understand the potential. Personally, I favor having the pickups (FatBoys in my case) almost as far as possible from the strings (for a cleaner sound), about a 1/16 closer to the B than the G (so I can play equally hard on the higher strings without sounding too bright), neck pickup tilted way back towards the bridge, and bridge either neutral or tilted slightly towards the neck (seems to help with more even timbre up and down the neck). But I think these sorts of adjustments are more related to tone/timbre across the strings, and up and down the neck. I think the question about "mwah" is a little different, and that's why I wrote the rest of this not-so-short version. Steve: the first step is to be clear on what you mean by "mwah" - and have you been playing fretless for a few years, or is this a relatively new thing to you?. If I understand what you mean by this, it seems to me it mostly comes from low-level string buzz against the fingerboard. In my experience (so far), this tends to depend on (a) bridge height, (b) neck relief (bend), (c) how carefully you intonate, and (d) how your strings respond to fingering pressure and intonation accuracy. Not necessarily in that order, and there are undoubtedly other factors such as fingerboard surface, etc, but it's a start. I would work through all of that before bothering with pickup adjustments. Unless your pickups are grossly angled (in terms of distance between the pickup and the strings at the E and G sides), that's not likely to matter much for "mwah". To clarify, the first experiement I would suggest is to raise the G side of your bridge by half a turn of the allen wrench (a lot, but that's okay). Do you lose much or most of the mwah on the G and D? If so, lower it part way back to where you start getting some again. Now, without any of that fretless sliding stuff, play a note somewhere moderately up the neck (7-9th fret area or so). Play the same note a bunch of times, altering your finger pressure and shifting your intonation very slightly. Does the mwah go away if you nail the intonation and press firmly, but appear if you play with lighter pressure or perhaps ever so slightly off pitch? (Do this on the G and D, where you know you like the sound.) If the bridge height made a big difference on the G and D, then to improve A and E mwah, there are two things you should experiment with. The first, of course, is to lower the bridge on that side. The other thing you'll need to investigate is neck relief, because getting this sort of buzz, in a tasteful way, is a pretty sensitive thing. Fortunately, since you have dual truss rods, you have some flexibility here (Joey would use uppercase here, and he'd be right). From what you're describing, it sounds like you would want to lower the E side of the bridge, and/or straighten the neck a little on that side (i.e. tighten the truss rod on that side by maybe 1/8 turn or so). To get a better idea, hold down a string (first the G, then the E) at both the 1st and 24th fret positions, and note the gap between the string and the fingerboard at the 7th fret. If you see a noticeably bigger gap on the E, tighten the truss rod a little on the E side. (I encourage you to jot down some notes about the adjustments you make, so you can reliably get back to your initial settings.) If none of this helps, then we could start talking about strings. It seems to me you'll always have more trouble getting a similar mwah from the fatter strings, because it's a fairly subtle thing - not quite the same as the more typical "fret buzz" - and the finer windings on the skinny strings work better for this. Having even tension across all the strings is also important - if you have a relatively floppy E string, by the time you get it low enough it's going to end up slapping the board instead of giving a nice subtle buzz. Different strings might work better for you, but this would take more work and patience (and some cost). I suggest you try the bridge height and relief adjustments first, and see how that goes. And by all means, play with your pickups a little. Then we can talk more. This is quite amusing to me, because just last night I was very pleased to eliminate what I think you're looking for on my G, by raising the G-side bridge about 1/4 turn and loosening the truss rod less than an 1/8. And with flat wounds, I think I had a "mwah" you would have paid extra for... Be interesting to hear what you find. -Bob (Fretless Old Guy, are you still lurking out there? You must have some useful thoughts on this subject.) | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 871 Registered: 9-2002 |
RRRRRRRRRRUFL... AND BROTHER BOB ladies and gentle people. Well ...Steve ...welcome to the club. You made a plunge for the far deep ummediately to get the two major Alembicientist together to answer your question. And yes ...it's printing time again. Highly interesting info again. I suggest they start writing a book: " Our voyage to the secrets of an Alembic bass ...and beyond!!!!" Brother Steve ...now lend me your ear that I can yell "PICTURES" in it and do us a favour: give us a glimp on your new baby and post some pictures at the INtroductions or showcase department! Paul the bad one PS: Be careful mentioning the words "beer" and "Harley". | ||
| mint_bass
Junior Username: mint_bass Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2004 |
this info has been very useful to me too as i was wondering two things what are the adjustable bits on the pots in the cavity will do to my sound and how to adjust the pickup height i was about to check the manual but i feel these explanations are very good so thankyou joey and bob thanx andrew | ||
| jet_powers
Intermediate Member Username: jet_powers Post Number: 113 Registered: 2-2003 |
BEER!!! Where? Oh, we need to make some empties to bang on the bar? OK.... PICTURES! PICTURES! BTW- Welcome to the club Steve. If you can't get your questions answered here, the question probably isn't worth asking. This is as fine a bunch of knowlegable, friendly lunatics as you're likely to encounter anywhere! JP | ||
| dean_m
Advanced Member Username: dean_m Post Number: 253 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hey Steve, Welcome to the club!!!! Did someone say Harley!?!? I miss mine. It's too cold here to ride now. BBBRRRRRRR! Oh yeah, where's my manners!?!?! PIX PIX PIX PIX Please!!!!! Dino(Paul the fake one) | ||
| stevec77
New Username: stevec77 Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2004 |
thanks to all you guys for the great info.... I'll definitely be printing all this out before I hit the tool box. I'll let you know how it goes. to answer a couple of your ?'s.... Yes, this is the 1st Alembic. Yes, I am relatively new to fretless. Bob, why can you not imagine using the chromes? tried to attach a pic of the bass, but's it's too big. thanks again, Steve | ||
| davehouck
Advanced Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 306 Registered: 5-2002 |
Steve; if you would like, email the pics to me, one at a time, and I'll try to post them. | ||
| bracheen
Intermediate Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2003 |
This is the second post where I read about two volume pots in the electronics cavity. My bass only has one. Is this an Epic characteristic? I'm not having problems but would like to know if something is missing. And Steve, welcome to the club. If it's technical information you seek, this is the place. I've learned a lot just by listening in. I have another brand fretless. They are fun but more work. Right now I have Fender flatwounds on it. Prior to that were SIT flats. I'm still looking for that perfect string also. Like Joey says, strings are pretty subjective. I know professional musicians who buy whatever is in the sales bin and others who are totally loyal to a brand. | ||
| davehouck
Advanced Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 307 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sam; nothing missing. Some models, like my Essence, have one trim pot; others, such as the Signature and Europa, have two. | ||
| valvil
Moderator Username: valvil Post Number: 303 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hello Steve & welcome to the club. Nothing to worry about, Sam, there's nothing missing from your Epic; Alembics with 2 pots in the cavity are models that feature Rogue electronics or better; all other current models have one gain pot in the cavity. The older models like Distillate, Spoiler , Elan, also have 2. Valentino | ||
| bracheen
Intermediate Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thanks Dave & Val. I didn't think so. Nothing looked out of place but it's nice to have confirmation. | ||
| bob
Intermediate Member Username: bob Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2002 |
Steve - I didn't mean to bash your chromes, just joking more than anything. To be fair, it's been well over five years since I've tried any D'Addario's (maybe ten). I just happen to be one of those people who's really picky about my strings, and I haven't been able to tolerate anything stainless for longer than I can remember. No big deal. | ||
| bigbass
Junior Username: bigbass Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2002 |
My experience with Chromes are that the G sounds great and as you go to the lower pitch strings the notes lack clarity, definition and sustain: Thud(!) the lower you get. I've tried them on all my fretted & fretless basses with the same results. The half round sound much better through out the entire string spectrum. I use them for tone variety. Round wound strings sound the best on my fretless basses. All strings will eat up the fingerboard depending on how hard you play'm. Round wound will do this at a faster rate. That shouldn't stop you from using them. Alembic Basses have enough meat on the boards so that when you get valleys and it starts to mess up your playing, you can have them "dressed". On my shorter scale basses I use smaller gage strings. I have no problems with E or B strings not having that nice growl, sustain and singing qualities. I'm using .100 or .095 on E and .120 or .115 on B, assuming a short 30 inch scale. With my 36 inch scale basses, the string thickness doesn't matter as much and thus I'm using heavy artillary. DR's, Snake Skins and Ken Smith are my current faves. Remember: It is easy to make a bright sounding string sound darker but hard if not impossible to make a dark sounding string sound brighter (They usually just sound awful!). Don't forget to let your amp do some of the work. There are plently of different kinds of amps out there. Very few sound alike....and thank goodness for that! | ||
| wideload
Junior Username: wideload Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2003 |
I have a Yamaha bass that I put a fretless neck on, just because there isn't enough stress in my life. I strung it with Tomastik Infeld flats, and I must say that they sound wonderful for the application. I just can't understand why the piano in the group always goes out of tune when I play fretless??! Larry | ||
| stevec77
New Username: stevec77 Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2004 |
Good morning all, Hey guys....upon closer examination of the pickup holes on my fretless Elan, they all have screws in them (hex head - not phillips) so I'm a little unclear about "putting the screwdriver in the hole to get to the screw" but I haven't gotten to the pickup height adjustment, or bridge adjustment yet. I am still adjusting the intonation. All is well on the G, D, and A but the E is a problem. It's a little sharp at the 12th fret position as opposed to open E. I have tried unsuccessfully to adjust the intonation regardless of the amount of turns on the screw with an allen wrench (not even sure if I should turn it clockwise or counter) correct me if I'm wrong but I think when intonating, you increase the distance between the nut and bridge saddle to FLAT the pitch. Likewise you decrese the distance between the nut and saddle to SHARP the pitch. Based on this can you guys help me with which way to turn the intonation adjustment screw? Bob - I didn't mean to come across as defensive 'bout the chromes....lolol...I'm new to the fretless world (thank goodness for sideline markers!!!) and someone recommended flats, and since I like Michael Manring's fretless sound on his Zon hyperbass and I know he uses DD's I thought I try them. I'm sure I'll be trying othere strings too. trying to add a pic and I get "One or more of the images or attachments you uploaded exceeded the maximum allowable upload size (which is 150 kilobytes). These images or attachments have been removed from your post. If you would like to include images or attachments, upload new files after you make sure that the size is not greater than 150 kilobytes. the jpeg is 650KB help! sorry I'm so green here! lol Thanks, Steve | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 880 Registered: 9-2002 |
Po-po-po-pooooooom ....po-po pooooooooom (Indiana Jones theme humming). A-TEAM help wanted Paul the bad one Me ...no ...I'm from the P-team ...I"m a thechnical moron. This is for the A-team ... what ??? oh ...huh ...Alembic team of course!!! | ||
| mica
Moderator Username: mica Post Number: 1388 Registered: 6-2000 |
Steve, if your bass has the P or J shaped pickups, these mount in the traditional way with a spring below. It's not our traditional way, and it's a tad unusual for an Alembic. Models that got these pickups were Persuaders and Elans (and of course on custom request). Intonation nuts spinning when you try to adjust the screw? ou'll have to tighten them by holding a driver over the nut and tightening the screw, taking care not to go crazy with the torque. Once you hit some resistance, check and see if you're able to adjust the intonation for that string. If you've got any picture editing program, try changing the image size so that the longest edge is about 500 pixels. You can also save with more compression. One of those methods should get you to a postable size. Today's digital cameras can make some huge files (my camera makes 2.2Meg files at the max resolution). | ||
| stevec77
New Username: stevec77 Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thanks Mica, mine is in fact an Elan, so it's got the springs below the pickups. I think you nailed my intonation issue on the proverbial "head"...I'll try holding the nut w/a driver and then tightening it. As I mentioned, the intonation on the E string is sharp at the 12th fret location so I want to increase the distance between the nut and the saddle so will I be turning clockwise or counter? I'll try to edit the size of my Elan jpegs as well. Thanks, Steve | ||
| bob
Intermediate Member Username: bob Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2002 |
Clockwise, assuming the wrench goes in from the end of the instrument. It will be like tightening a screw, and pulling the saddle closer to the tailpiece. You are correct, if the note plays sharp compared to the harmonic, then you want to make the string longer. It's worth getting close, but I wouldn't go nuts trying to get it perfect if you still intend to adjust the bridge height and maybe relief - because it will change a little. By the way, what controls do you have? If you have a filter, you should probably turn it off when working on your setup, because it can have an effect on "mwah" which will not necessarily be even across all the strings/notes. | ||
| stevec77
New Username: stevec77 Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2004 |
Thanks Mica you were right. the tiny nut on the intonation screw needed to be held tight with a needle nose plier. I accomplished this with the hands of a surgeon as to not touch the finish of the bass and end up on the local news here in NYC. I had my cousin come over with an electronic micrometer to make sure I held a parallel line - just kidding! Bob, you were right clockwise was the way, thanks. The controls on the bass are an upgraded version with a Q switch similar (I'm told buy the seller) to the current Rogue/Europa line. The range on the tone control is nothing short of amazing!. I can only imagine what a series 1 will sound like one day when I break the piggie bank. The intonation is now just about dead on, the nut, and bridge are good (for now - lol) I'll be experimenting pick the pickups now....tilting them sounds intriguing. bigbass was right earlier about the g sounding great on the daddario chromes with the other stirngs lacking sustain and especially clarity. I wish I could get the A and E to sing like the G! I'll definitely be trying some other strings on the fretless. As I mentioned I'm new to fretless. I have a fretted Warwick thumb neck through with a set of Rotosound Swing Bass roundwounds that sound great but I'm reluctant (I'll get over it bigbass lol)to put rounds on the fretless just yet. The fingerboard, the whole bass is really in incredible shape for a 15 year old guitar. Just an FYI for any Wooten fans out there, I recently saw him at Iridium jazz club with Jaco Pastorius big band....small room, got there early and I sat about 10 feet from Victor he was playing a fretless Fodera Monarch and after seeing him live a few times with his brothers when he plays fretted...well it was quite a sight to see! One of the tightest sets I've seen in a long time. What was even better was meeting him afterwards. He's an incredibly humble and nice guy. | ||
| stevec77
New Username: stevec77 Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2004 |
here's a pic of my 1989 4 string fretless Elan bass 5A quilted maple top maple body maple neck Ebony fretboard P/J pickups | ||
| stevec77
New Username: stevec77 Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2004 |
 | ||
| gbarchus
Junior Username: gbarchus Post Number: 31 Registered: 6-2002 |
Bob, Maybe I missed it, but I'm curious. What strings ARE you using? I fancy the TI Flats on my fretless. Actually on my fretted ones, too! Gale | ||
| bob
Intermediate Member Username: bob Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2002 |
You didn't miss it Gale, I just didn't want to be blamed for encouraging yet another chorus of "My Favorite Strings" (with apologies to JC)... but I can't avoid a direct question, now can I? :-) TI Jazz Flats. Nothing else will do. Jazz Rounds are close; I used those for a few months first, was so knocked out compared to anything else I'd played that I was willing to believe their claims that the flats really didn't sound dull in comparison - and they were right. These guys advertise things like "pitch accuracy", and though I tend to be skeptical of such stuff, my notes from the night I put on my first set say "this is like putting frets on a fretless!". And curiously, whenever I intonate a set of these (both round and flat, two different scale lengths), the saddles end up much closer to a straight line than anything else I've seen. Given all that, I'm happy to let them decide what the gauges should be. Now that they have finally come out with a 5 string set for 36" scales (just in the last month or two), I'm tempted to buy enough to stock up for life. Only problem is, the damn things last so long, I can't figure out how many that would be... Just for grins, though, another member made this great crack in a recent email: " 'flatwound tone' - isn't that an oxymoron? " Well no, of course not - especially on Alembics, which started out that way. Unless you need reeaalllly bright, you can make these things do just about whatever you like. But like you, this is just what I "fancy" - to each their own. -Bob | ||
| stevec77
New Username: stevec77 Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2004 |
Bob, Are those the Thomastik Infeld strings with silk inlays I've been hearing so much about? Thanks, Steve | ||
| 0vid
New Username: 0vid Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2003 |
"mwah' or buzz has less to do with brands of strings, or pickup heights... 'mwah' or "buzz' (term preferred by pedulla) or fretless buzz (term used in the 70's) has more to do with angle of the string in relation to the fingerboard. You may need to adjust your nut and the saddle heights, and may have to adjust the relief on your neck.. the shallower the angle the greater the buzz or 'mwah'..... |
