| Author | Message | ||
| drz
Junior Username: drz Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2003 |
You know, I'm a little pissed these days regarding America's economy. Lets get real folks, I feel we all need to become more diligent in our efforts to buy products which are "Made In America". Those products are some of the finest products made, such as Alembic. Too many goods are being sold to Americans which are manufactured in other countries. These products are in general, sub standard in quality and are manufactured through the use of what many would consider modern day slave labor/wages. It is capitalism which deprives the American people of decent jobs. It is pure bullshit. I think the solution is quite simple. If we buy american products exclusively, as much as possible, the American economy becomes more stimulated which in turn creates a need for more products, which would ultimately create more JOBS. Have you gone to Wal-Mart lately and checked where the majority of goods were manufactured. Disgusting. America's jobs must remain in America. Subcontracted government labor overseas MUST be given back to the american people. I could go on and on about this but I just wanted to say to all fellow Alembic folk, god bless for supporting the American manufacturers. Obviously, companies such as Alembic set the standard for American made quality. If you don't support products and companies who pride themselves in American craftsmanship, well, SHAME ON YOU. Is there something I am overlooking or do you agree. All feedback appreciated. | ||
| bob
Intermediate Member Username: bob Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmm... I would say that one small point you may be overlooking is that a very significant proportion of Alembic owners, and in particular members of this group, do not happen to be residents of the US. Perhaps they're just trying to help us out? More likely, they recognize craftsmanship without regard to nationality, which is how I tend to think of it myself - one of those things which is "absolute". | ||
| bracheen
Intermediate Member Username: bracheen Post Number: 150 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes it's true that American based companies have moved operations to other countries. However the reverse is also true. Non American based companies have set up operations here employing many thousands of Americans. I am one. I work for Toyota as do about 100,000 other Americans, within our boundries, either directly or indirectly through the extensive supplier network. | ||
| the_schwartz
Junior Username: the_schwartz Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2003 |
drz: If you think you're angry now, watch Lou Dobbs on CNN. The exportation of American jobs is one of his pet topics nightly. The problem goes way beyond whether consumers "buy American". In economics, the "prime directive" of a company is to maximize its value. In economics, this value is defined as the present value of the firm's expected future profits. Thus, companies (especially publicly traded ones) are under intense pressure from analysts and investors to increase the current quarter's (or year's) earnings as much as possible over previous quarters and years. If they don't, their expected future profits decline, taking the companies value down. Executives who let this happen eventually become former executives. At the same time, they are under intense pressure from competitors and customers to keep prices down. Wal-Mart, for example, demands that its suppliers lower the prices of their products every year. There are two basic ways to increase value: 1) increase revenues (money earned); and 2) decrease expenses. Competition and the laws of supply and demand tend to limit the former, so companies put a lot of effort into the latter. The greatest general expense for manufacturing companies is the cost of labor, so companies do as much as possible to cut it. They cut labor cost by using labor more efficiently (i.e. fewer workers for a given level of production, automation, etc.) and by paying lower wages for a given level of production (i.e. producing products in areas where wages are lower). The exporting of jobs to accomplish this was made possible by free-trade agreements such as NAFTA and organizations like the WTO. The Fortune 500 companies control over 70% of the world's trade. Free trade is what makes it cost-effective for manufacturers to send raw materials and parts from one country to a factory in another country, and to send finished goods to America for sale. Unfortunately, the barn doors are open, and the cows are out. So many products are simply no longer made in America. Imagine how much consumer demand for American-made TVs it would take for a company to build a factory and start making TV sets in America, especially when foreign-made TVs are flying off the shelves at Costco and Wal-Mart stores everywhere. | ||
| bigredbass
Advanced Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 240 Registered: 9-2002 |
This is a global economy, folks. Business has moved beyond the 19th century constraints that governments face: territorial boundaries. Global businesses ARE the new governments. It's the ultimate expression of freedom in that capital is always searching, searching . . . that the search takes it to all of the world is no surprise. Yet the real currency is ideas. These are not confined by territory either. Combine this with the economic power to prototype, build, and market, and anyone, anywhere, of any nationality, can bring the world to their door. Satellites, internet, and FedEx have shrunk the world beyond any chance of reviving the smokestack glories of yesterday. Success from here out will absolutely require a global view. Autos are the ultimate example: Right south of Nashville is the largest Nissan auto manufacturing plant in the world, and also (for years now) its MOST productive and efficient. And it's got hillbillies (Tennesseans) building Japanese cars (Nissan) for a French company (Renault, who is the majority owner), using some parts made here and the rest sourced from all over the world. 20 years ago it was a cow pasture. J o e y | ||
| davehouck
Advanced Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 323 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well my eyelids are heavy and I need to get to bed; but I thought I would check the posts in the Alembic group before heading up to crawl under the covers. So please consider that I'm half asleep when reading the following ramble; and that I am perhaps not thinking as clearly as I would after two cups of coffee <g>. Another small point you may be overlooking is the subject of wood. I would imagine there are those who might suggest that too many products are being sold to Americans made with wood imported from other countries rather than wood that was grown and cut by Americans, denying American forestry workers jobs; and suggesting that Americans should buy products made with American woods exclusively. Such people might think owning a bass made with imported woods such as Ebony and Wenge would be un-American. But I'm not one of them. I like Ebony and Wenge on an Alembic. There may be others who feel that Americans should only own basses with tuners made in America. Should Americans quit buying Alembics since those basses are made with Gotoh tuners imported from Japan? I also think there are many beautiful and high quality basses made in other countries around the world; and I don't think it should be considered un-patriotic to own one of them. For instance, some of the members of our group that live in the US own Warwick basses; and some of them may be questioning your suggestion that they should only own American made basses. Which of course leads to the question, should the European members of our group sell their Alembics and cancel their custom orders and only own basses made in Europe? Should the Tennessee members sell their Alembics and only own basses made in Tennessee? And I don't think it would really be reasonable to suggest that a violin player shouldn't own a Stradivarius if presented the opportunity. Many of the members of this group live in countries that export products to the U.S. Some of those products such as automobiles and beer are discussed frequently in this group; and their high quality has been praised by the American members of this group. And if a member of our group were to start building custom bass stands that met my needs for safely holding my Alembics, it certainly wouldn't seem to be reasonable for me to refuse to consider purchasing such a stand from someone I consider a friend and fellow Alembic owner simply because the stand was made in a country other than the one I live in. As Bob pointed out, as a member of this group I am a member of a global community of musicians who have a common interest in Alembic basses and guitars. And I would expand upon that idea by suggesting that I am also a member of a global community of humans; and that in both the Alembic and the world communities strident nationalism doesn't really contribute to global harmony; bass clef or otherwise <g>. Now I really need to get to bed before this ramble gets any more confused <g>. Hope this helps. | ||
| bob
Intermediate Member Username: bob Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2002 |
(Thanks for taking the time, Dave, have a good sleep.) I was tempted to point out that our beloved coco bolo doesn't grow anywhere in the US (as far as I know), and let's not forget those Swiss collet knobs... Frankly, it bothers me a little that Alembic still has some literature that puts an emphasis on "Made in the USA" - it's true, but seems a bit dated to me. And if this same group of people happened to have formed a few hundred miles north, would their Canadian basses automatically be of inferior quality? Or should some of us not buy them, because we happen to live "south of the border"? Clearly, this is not just about basses and guitars (though we have a lot of them in the audience). As Dave and Joey say, we live in a new "world", and nationalistic approaches just don't make sense - if you care about the human condition as a whole, and understand how much we all depend on each other. Peace, maybe someday? | ||
| adriaan
Intermediate Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 105 Registered: 6-2002 |
You may or may not know this, but the people of the Netherlands are very proud of not being terribly proud of being citizens of the Netherlands (genuine double Dutch). And if someone says "Take pride in products made in Farawayistan", we're just not impressed. But show us your product and we might be impressed. There's one thing about this cost reduction mantra that always strikes me as self-destructive. You can increase profitability by cutting costs - agreed. You can cut costs by exporting jobs to countries with lower wages - agreed, but then who will be able to buy your product? The old employees have just lost their jobs, and nobody's hiring. The western economies have grown to what they are now by virtue of the fact that millions of people started to have money to spend on luxury goods and services (think back to before the 1950s). Take away the jobs on a big scale, and the economy will go down the drain. Probably the main reason for cutting costs is the fact that business decisions are oriented towards how much profit the shareholders can make in the stock exchanges, which often translates to how much credit they can get based on stockmarket value (think back to the recent financial crises). Stock used to be a way to find investors for your enterprise, now it's a financial proposition that must be attractive enough so that the stock won't go down, along with your creditability as an entrepreneur. ... as he steps off the soapbox ... Adriaan (Message edited by adriaan on January 21, 2004) | ||
| dean_m
Advanced Member Username: dean_m Post Number: 257 Registered: 7-2002 |
Okay, I've got to reply to a couple of things here. Seeing a couple of issues effect me directly too. I can understand DRZ's pride in all things made American. Let's face it, we all have a certain in pride in all of our countries and heritages. So when something really cool comes out of our respective countries, we sort of rasie a hand and say "Yeah! That's made in __________. On the other hand there are things that the U.S. have developed and sold to other countries that we shouldn't be so proud of. I won't go there though because this isn't the place for it really. As Joey and a few others have stated, this is a global ecomony though. Case in point, as many of you may or may not know, I do some work for (clinics and product specialist) and own a few Warwick basses. These are made in Germany and owned by a German company. Does that make me a bad American?????? Beleive me, the money that I earn as a clinician gets well spent on American products such as taxes, Harleys and yes even Alembics. On the other hand I also do stuff for Ampeg which manufactures all of its product here in the U.S. regardless of how much more revenue it could generate by sourcing manufacturing overseas. Does this make them bias? One other thing. Harley Davidson. Yes they are proudly made in America. Yes they are proudly ridden by people from all different countries. Does this mean it is better bike than say a BMW because it's made in the US? I really don't think so. When I go to buy parts and accessories for my bike though, they're certainly not made in America. Kind of ironic isn't it. Our Brother Paul (the bad one) is a self employed marketing consultant (I believe this is true, Paul, correct me if I'm wrong) who lives in Belgium. Would this prohibit me from ever employing his talents should I ever need that kind of a service? NO WAY!! He'd be the first person I would probably call. You also have to ask the Chicken or the Egg question too. Is our economy bad because of overseas manufacturing or is there overseas manufacturing because our economy is bad. I don't know about you but I couldn't support a family on $10 per hour here in New England, toys or no toys. Listen, it's great to display a product that states "Proudly Made in the USA". I'm proud of my Alembics just as I'm proud of my Warwicks and Ampegs, and my Harley regardless of where they're made. Yes I am proud to be an American too but also remember this, my Grandparents came from Greece which I am also proud of. Now let's get back to making music!!!!! Peace, Dino | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 934 Registered: 9-2002 |
Communication consultant first. I have a past as Video producer, mostly industrial video's, later more interactive stuff as DVD's etc... . Now out of work and doing a consultant job for the Flemish government on Cultural Heritage Policy and Masterplanning. I would love to react more but I'm afraid my lingo is too narrow to express what I think. I cannot be short and precise. Paul the bad one Dino ...you have my cell-phone number!!!;-) | ||
| groovelines
Intermediate Member Username: groovelines Post Number: 148 Registered: 4-2003 |
Funny, I thought Dubya said the economy was fine and getting better? More RNC whitewash? Did I miss something? Seriously, a number of fine points have been made, most of which revolve around the economics of business and ever fading international boundaries. Accept it, the global neighborhood is a reality. Isolationists and those "Bring Back the Good ol'Days" parties need to get a grip. It's long since past when America could rely on itself for resources and the benfits a selfsustaining-nuturing-feeding economy provided and to be able to pay for it. You can blame Wall Street, the bottom line, or even the standard of living we so greatly tout as a birthright. I don't think its possible or even fair to place the blame anywhere. I also think you can't remedy the economy by buying American, what does that mean anymore? Joey articulated a good point about ideas bringing the globe into your living room, and I'd like to take it further in that that is what you ultimately purchase. That's the value I look for. It doesn't matter at first where it is made, I do check and unless I have some idealogical reason to not purchase a product from one country or another, it's fair game. The years of good living have cught up to us. It costs too much to continue to support it. It's a consumer's world and businesses know it. So today, I'll play my American-made bass while drinking my imported German beer. Then tomorrow I'll send my mortgage payment to a bank with international holdings and pray like hell that the job I have today will be mine the next day. Mike | ||
| the_schwartz
Junior Username: the_schwartz Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't personally have a problem with non-U.S. made basses. It just so happens that many great luthiers are in America. Would we all be here with our Alembics if the company was non-American, or would we all be posting to the Fodera, Modulus, Sadowsky, or Ken Smith club(s)? I think most people buy basses for tone, workmanship, appearance, and price. Alembic, Fodera, Modulus et al cater to buyers concerned with the first 3 criteria, and manufacturers of non-U.S.-made basses like Ibanez, Epiphone, Samick, and most Fenders cater to buyers concerned with the last 1 or 2 criteria. In fact, foreign manufacturing is what puts basses into the hands of people who don't have $1,000 to spend on their first bass. Heck, even Sir Paul bought his Hofner because he couldn't afford a P-Bass at the time. What I think is a bigger issue is big American companies like PRS, Gibson, Fender, Martin, Taylor, et al selling mediocre instruments (made in U.S. or elsewhere) at premium prices because people associate their brands with the high-quality instruments they once made. At least when you buy a $300 Squier, you know what you're getting. Joe | ||
| hollis
New Username: hollis Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2003 |
I've been all over this little blue marble and as far as I can tell, we're all in it together. | ||
| drz
Junior Username: drz Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2003 |
My wife bought some "Fruit of the Loom" tee shirts for me the other day. I was somewhat surprised when I read the tag and it said, "Made in Honduras of USA fabric". This kind of thing has to stop. I understand that international trade is necessary to our global economy, however, as said earlier, $10 hr does not pay the bills and the hard working blue collar Americans deserve more. Is the issue of illegal immigrants a substantial factor? I don't know. A cup can only hold so much water. The economic support system of America may be shutting down after a while. Maybe bringing back the Unions in full force should be a consideration. Please don't get me wrong folks, I love just about everyone, I just feel the working class in america is being somewhat shit on and they deserve more. | ||
| 811952
Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 66 Registered: 10-2003 |
I believe that if a US company takes manufacturing offshore, then it should be legally bound to pay their workforce (on whatever tiny island) the minimum wage of whatever country where they are selling their product. That way we're not raping developing countries and the playing field is somewhat level (if the EU, etc., would buy into it). Of course, Wal Mart won't be able to sell jeans made by 7-year-olds for ten bucks, but we will have a real economy for a change and the developing countries will actually get paid for their labor resources. Not a bad thing for the world, I think. Nothing is free, and good deals come at some expense to someone somewhere and I like to be able to sleep at night... ;-) PtJoII | ||
| elzie
Advanced Member Username: elzie Post Number: 259 Registered: 8-2002 |
(Message edited by elzie on January 22, 2004) | ||
| the_schwartz
Junior Username: the_schwartz Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2003 |
drz: You make some good points about illegal immigrants (a big issue here in California) and the American working class. Unfortunately, maintaining the status quo benefits politicians who court Latino voters and employers who enjoy (and in many cases depend on) the cheap labor illegal immigrants provide. So politicians have little motivation to address this issue. The common thread between illegal immigration and exporting jobs to developing countries is that both phenomena drive down wages for all workers and profits for businesses that pay American workers fair wages. If this trend continues, the American middle class as we know it will eventually give way to mass poverty. America will more closely resemble a developing nation, with a tiny, ultra-wealthy elite ruling class and hundreds of millions of desperately poor people. The middle class is the goose that lays the golden egg of economic prosperity in America, and corporate America is slowly strangling the goose. Corporate America is being very short-sighted, sacrificing America's future for this year's positive earnings trend. Nobody seems to be thinking about maximizing value for more than the next few years. Joe (Message edited by the_schwartz on January 22, 2004) | ||
| drz
Junior Username: drz Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2003 |
Well said !!!! | ||
| rogertvr
Intermediate Member Username: rogertvr Post Number: 183 Registered: 1-2003 |
To all of the Americans in here who are still living in the US and agree or disagree with DRZ - I say "Welcome to the UK". We're taxed to death, legislated to death and we're the most watched country on Earth - yes, even more so than the Chinese. You think you have it hard? Come here! I won't go into too many details, no doubt GCHQ is reading every word I write but for a start, a litre of 95RON petrol here is now 76 pence - and most of that is tax. A packet of cigarettes (I don't smoke) is around £4.50, a pint of beer is well over £2.00. To road tax my cars for a year costs £160 per car. Insurance costs - don't go there, even that is taxed, as are my electricity, gas and water bills. Welcome to the UK - Labour government - tax and (don't spend) - and still end up with a massive multi-billion pound debt that would buy half of Africa if it were profit....... You're not hard-done by in the States, trust me. What is going on there has long been underway in Europe - especially the UK.... | ||
| dannobasso
Intermediate Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 117 Registered: 7-2002 |
I am all for supporting manufacturers of quality products. I try to buy American so others who live here can support themselves. Politics aside, people with vision and money create jobs when the demand for goods and services becomes a profitable event. Not enough profit, bye bye company, bye bye jobs. I work on average 6 days a week to be able to be a gear head and buy Alembics because I love them! But I don't have a wife and kids to worry about. The current generation in the position of influence has been extremely self indulgent and short on sacrifice. I'm in the next one down (X)the ladder and many of us are no better. We all want to make a living that will support a certain lifestyle. We then get used to that level and then want to move to the next higher one. We buy on credit, carry home equity loans, lease cars we could not otherwise afford, we eat out more than any other previous population etc. People don't want to do without and neither do their kids. I belong to the largest Union in the Country. I'm not a fan of it. I pay because I have to in order to work in the system. At one time belonging meant that the best trained and qualified people were delivering a service. Now it is more about protection regardless of talent. (my opinion only folks) If my stress outweighs my compensation, I'll bail and do something else. I won't milk the system because it's hard to get rid of me. I support Alembic because the company creates what I want and the family there is exceptional in their quality of character. In a land that pays athletic entertainers millions to reward their talent, quality basses and guitars are very reasonably priced. If they were made in Pago Pago I'd buy from them. I'd just have to have a great long distance package. Roger, today petral was $1.47 a gallon, cigs $4.75 (I don't smoke) I am very glad to live here, work hard and pay my way. I lived in Galway, Ireland attending UCG for a semester. Not cheap but the locals didn't pay tuition. I was happy to to help support the population that produced my ancestors. Support who you believe in and what you believe in, but not to the detrement of others (intentionally). Support the Santa Rosa economy! Order another bass today! I'm doing my part for the cause! | ||
| thebass
Intermediate Member Username: thebass Post Number: 102 Registered: 3-2003 |
Almost everything has been said. The taxes and costs in the EU and especially here in Germany might be even worse than in the UK. It was american companies who thought us the global economy. We see the effect now but there is no way back. But raising the fence high enough for other markets to keep them out is not the solution. In Germany we had to learn what happens to countries which had closed out the rest of the world for 40 years ... I guess in every highly industrialized country you will find the same discussion. Just exchange "made in USA" by "made in ....." | ||
| effclef
Junior Username: effclef Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2004 |
Well I'm late to this thread but it is not a new one, at least in conversations I've heard. To me, it's not so much that I walk into Wal-Mart and find that something I want to buy is made in China. It's that there's no CHOICE of buying something identical, made somewhere else! Not only that, but many of the Chinese-made products I have bought have turned out to be just plain shoddy. A couple of generations ago, "Made in Japan" was awful. Then it was "Made in Hong Kong." (That's China now, folks.) Now I see things like "Engineered in Japan, assembled in China." It's obvious companies see the reputation issue. Anyway - I am not an economist and have not taken a single course on it nor have I read a book about it. But from a gut-level US citizen feeling, I believe that this is an important point: if the person making product X can afford to buy product X on his salary, he will probably take more care in making product X. This is the reason I bought a Taylor acoustic guitar, made in California, partly because I read the reviews and heard the SOUNDS OF WOOD AND STEEL compact disc, but partly because I knew some poor chap in Fuzhou making a plywood guitar probably could never afford to buy one, and probably has to crank out five per hour... (The Taylor was just sold to a happy buyer...the 1-3/4" nut meant I could actually play chords but I want to concentrate on bass only, at least until I can learn what the heck four strings do. Model 310...beautiful...their "low end model" at the time I bought it in 2001.) Another thing: though it's great that Nissan employs all those Tennesseeans, how much of the money being made from the cars is then being reinvested in US businesses? There's more to having a business in the US than paying a workforce, at least on a moral level. I would much rather pay $40 for a pair of jeans made with care in the USA than $15 for a similar pair made sloppily in China. I think the real issue is with quality. Anyone here on this website obviously knows quality! It was not that long ago that a Japanese camera (vs. a US or German one) was a piece of junk. I expect that we will eventually see China's reputation for quality products improving. But at the same time, there's an emotional resistance to this, when I see local jobs being outsourced, and manufacturing plants closing. Reeducate the production workers? As what? Wal Mart associates? And if they go to engineering school, will there be US design companies left for them to go after graduation????? It's a mess at times. The human race will survive. The US will not be top dog for the next 500 years, surely. A hard lesson to learn. As Hollis said, "we're all in this together." I keep waiting for the aliens to land and find us good to eat. ;-) EffClef PS I also think the one art which can transcend all borders, all languages, and all differences we humans separate ourselves with is MUSIC. | ||
| hollis
Junior Username: hollis Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2003 |
We are the minstrels blessed or cursed if not left for us to proclaim who then? now or when? Sing it out for all to hear let MUSIC flow far and near let it flow I'm not really sure what that has to do with this thread.......I just struck me this way | ||
| musikill
Junior Username: musikill Post Number: 49 Registered: 12-2003 |
I couldn't read all of the posts here because my head was about to explode. Virtually all of the points mentioned here are valid, which proves we are a global economy and there is no going back. I live in California and I know this is not politically correct but the illegal immigration must be stopped. It is bankrupting the state which will have enormous worldwide impact. Also true is the fact that we are exporting too many jobs. Granted, manufacturing is no longer financially possible in the US except for very high end professional and consumer products - like Alembic. Who cares if all the parts are not made here - if Alembic decides the parts are the best for their basses that's good enough for me. There is a consequence to all of this globalization that seems to be tragically overlooked. That is the loss of mutual loyalty that once was the stabilizing element of the American workplace. Not so long ago companies valued their employees, and most employees felt loyal to those companies. This was mutually benificial, companies did not have to worry much about turnover or theft etc. by employees and employees felt a certain sense of security that they could buy a house and have a job long enough to pay for it. Corporate America has become so obsessed with greed that it has lost it's morale. It is almost guaranteed that you will be unemployed at some point in your adult life. As you get older (over 40) this becomes a frightening prospect, unless you are the exception - people over 40 are not usually the first choice among job candidates. Part of the method behind this new age of corporate greed is the elimination of benifits such as retirement plans, 401k plans etc. Very few companies offer these to their new employees and in fact take them away from existing employees. I am just one of millions of people nearing 50 years old that is faced with the prospect of not being able to afford to retire - I am paid well but this has only been the case for the last few years so investing is something I could only recently afford. Frankly the investing has only been a break even excercise. I am one of the lucky one's in that I look at least 20 years younger than I am so I'm working and hope to continue to do so. But this country is facing a disaster in the next 20 - 25 years - an entire generation will be retiring and many of them will not have the resources to maintain their health or nominal standard of living due to the loss of the benefits that were once part of the working package. I'll bet everyone's parents have some sort of retirement, but how many of us can really say we will have the $1.5M it is generally said you need to retire? This is the national tragedy that we are setting ourselves up for as a result of the loss of corporate morality. We as a nation of people need to restore our compassion for each other and recognize where we are heading by putting profit above all else. I will never post any non-Alembic subject again - but I could not let this go by without jumping in. To all of you who live in other countries and have read through our complaining, I am sorry and I do not mind at all if your products are sold here. If people are buying them they must be good - I drive a German sports car and my brother drives a Swedish sports car. I'm guilty! greg | ||
| dean_m
Advanced Member Username: dean_m Post Number: 269 Registered: 7-2002 |
Nothing to be guilty of Greg. You know, my wife and I were just talking about that very same thing last night. We have a little ways to go before retirement (about 25 years, 20 if I'm real lucky) but considering what I do for a living, I may never (be able) to retire financially and mentally. Being a musician has put me in a very interesting position. I really don't make that much money to invest even though I do a little bit. I certainly won't have the 1.5M in the bank in the next 20 years, that's for sure. And I have to think, will I ever want to retire. With that being said, I just wanted to say that you brought up some very valid and interesting points. As has everyone!!! I'm glad you brought this up. I say we all move to Belgium to drink beer and play bass with our brother Paul TBO. Peace, Dino | ||
| davehouck
Advanced Member Username: davehouck Post Number: 360 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dino; I was just wondering, does Paul have room in his house for all of us, or should we take tents to set up in the yard? | ||
| dean_m
Advanced Member Username: dean_m Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2002 |
I never said anything about moving in to his house. Let's just make sure the pub down the road is big enough though. Although tents might be a good idea so when we all pass out, we have some place to sleep. HA!!!! | ||
| dadabass2001
Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'll need a big tent for me, my Alembics, 4 different bass rigs (old, new, small, medium) and my Mac computer. Oh yeah, and a change of clothes or two. Hey Paul tbo, how cold do winters get in Belgium? Will I need to bring my own stockings? Can I stop typing now? | ||
| elzie
Advanced Member Username: elzie Post Number: 278 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg, you make some very valid points that hit very close to home for me. Not many of you know this, but I had a major surgery in July 2002. Recovery time was a year. During this time out living( yeah, right) on short term, then long term disability, I still went into work to help the company. Heck, I even took machine parts home to fix them! I had a lot of loyalty to the company and did whatever I could to be helpful. I now realize that this was a huge mistake. When I returned to work in July 2003, I temporarily injured the area of surgery so I neede to be out about another 3 weeks. While I was out I saw my job posted on monster.com. The friday before I was to return to work, I recieved a letter via Fedex that explained that I was fired. No severance, no benefits, nothing! After 8 years of loyal service, the company didn't even have the decency to tell me to my face, or by phone, that I was done.....and I had already spent my entire 401k on medical bills, taxes and trying to keep my head above water. To make matters worse, the person that fired me was the one who I had to go through to get my 401k money! There are many more horrid details to this story, but I don't want to bore anyone ;) But you are correct in saying that corporate America has truly lost sight of their best asset- their people. It was a hard, bitter lesson for me, but I will never forget it....... Paul TGO (Message edited by elzie on February 11, 2004) | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1030 Registered: 9-2002 |
Winters not cold. Enough place in the wood (old boy-scout domain with specal beers). Everybody welcome. Paul TGO ...and especially you brother! I liek to meet the people in thi s club. It has nothing to do with the beer or the thongs ...but by people talking, listening and learning. Paul the bad one PS: tomorrow I'm going in prison. For a GIG morons!!!!! | ||
| elzie
Advanced Member Username: elzie Post Number: 279 Registered: 8-2002 |
Oh my oh my Paul. You actually used the stockings??? "PS: tomorrow I'm going in prison." See. I always knew you were the bad one! "For a GIG morons!!!!! " Is taht what they call it now? A gig? How long is it, 5 to 10?? I trust you already know what NOT to do in there;) Paul TGO | ||
| palembic
Senior Member Username: palembic Post Number: 1031 Registered: 9-2002 |
HAHAHAHA .... 6 to 8 Paul the busted one | ||
| the_schwartz
Member Username: the_schwartz Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2003 |
Greg and Paul (TGO)'s posts really hit a nerve. Corporate America, by squeezing the middle class, is really killing the goose that lays the golden egg. If the current trends of outsourcing jobs abroad and to illegal immigrants continues, there will be no more middle class in America. America will be like a third world country, with an ultra-wealthy ruling class and hundreds of millions of desperately poor people (with a living standard equal to that of most illegal immigrants). Corporate America doesn't care that there will be no more customers here; they will sell their products to the "new" middle class in India. I especially agree with Greg's post about illegal immigration. Not only is it adversely affecting California's finances, but more important, it is driving down wages. Many contractors, for example, are hiring illegal immigrants because if they don't they will be underbid by their competitors who do. The worst part is that politicians in both major parties have more incentive to pander to illegal immigration than to do something about it. Democrats and Republicans both want to court Latino votes, and Republicans want to enure a reliable supply of cheap labor for their corporate benefactors. Before anyone flames me as a racist, reactionary, right-wing wacko etc, I should point out that: - I am very liberal and have never voted for a Republican. I voted for Nader 2x, Ron Daniels (Peace & Freedom party) in 1992, and Dukakis in 1988. I voted "No" on the recall of Gray Davis. - I voted "No" on Prop. 187 because I thought it was poorly written and obviously unconstitutional. I am not anti-immigration or anti-Latino, but I oppose *illegal* immigration because of its economic effects (and resent the efforts of those who deliberately confuse immigration with illegal immigration). Joe |
