| Author | Message | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1265 Registered: 11-2004 |
Okay, I like jazz, I got into MIles later on in my life but have been brought up on all is proteges, John McLaughlin, Herbie Hancock, Joe Zawinul, Tony Williams, Chick Corea. 'A Kind Of Blue' is my favourite Miles album but his 'Birth Of Cool' and subsequent stuff is also great to listen to along with John Coltrane BUT after watching a programme on satellite TV about his Isle of Wight performance along with interviews about 'Bitches Brew' I decided to buy it(very cheap on CD as it is a Columbia remaster re issue). Did he lose the plot because to me it sounds like a load of musicians jamming or trying to jam to a completely erratic structure!! In fact I will go to say that it is crap, a self indulgence musical snobbery that says ' we know we are better than the rest of you out there' Yes I know it is 1969 but to be voted the best jazz album of all time..maybe I am missing the boat! If any of you can enlighten me and get me to listen to it a different way then please let me know. I am giving it a few more plays then it goes in the trash! | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 666 Registered: 5-2002 |
Don't put it in the trash yet. This discussion has been happening since the record came out (or perhaps for a little longer as In A Silent Way, which came out before BB is the beginning of this era in my mind). To a certain extent, you get enjoy it or you don't. Trying to place it in the context of Kind of Blue or any of his bop recordings is probably an exercise in frustration. Mile's genius had many aspects and there are a few of them at work here. Just as he had in his previous ensembles, he played his musicians like instruments. Instead of telling them explicitly what to play, he chose the musicians for what he knew they would do left to minimal instruction. Also, as he had in the past, he was looking for ways to move beyond his previous efforts. There was no point for him to do another Kind of Blue, or Relaxin' or Birth of the Cool, as they had all been done and he had played out that material live to the point that it had been reinvented as far as it would go, especially with the Ron Carter/Wayne Shorter?Herbie Hancock, etc. group. What do you do when you've exhausted the intellectual/athletic possibilities in the genre you've created? Faced with another evolution, he wanted to include other streams of music that he heard around him, a lot of which were more groove based, whether funk from James Brown, rock from Jimi Hendrix (who was a huge influence) or music he heard from Africa. Realize also that the culture of 1969 was very different from today. What had been revolutionary uptown music (played in Harlem after hours after the musicians had done their downtown commercial gigs) had become mainstream music that had lost cultural relevance with contemporary black culture. While now it is seen as America's classical music, at that time, from those at the cutting edge of the revolution, it had the aura of being a sellout and the irrelevant music of people's parent's who had lost the fire to find freedom. From our comfortable view of history, it's easy to listen to Bitches Brew and find fault with it from a technical and effectiveness standpoint: it's meandering and not very dynamic. However, we've also got to realize that we've suffered the fallout from this music, which has been an endless barrage of noodly one chord "funk" jams that truly have no direction played by people who don't have the depth of experience behind them the way Miles and his musicians did. Remember that this really was new when it happened and there had yet to be any playbook written for this kind of music. What is the structure of no structure? Remember also, classical music and many other art forms had already gone through this kind of deconstruction, from Schoenberg to Jackson Pollock. Do you like Cubism? 12 tone music? Dadaism? Birthing a new music is sometimes messy. It can take some time to discover the logic and beauty in it for both creator and listener. So, best jazz album of all time? Who knows? I think that is an analysis that misses the point of music (I've always hated Downbeat for their ridiculous polls). It's not a competition, but a communication. So, it might be one of the most effective communications ever (I transcend your pigeonholing of me as a player of jazz according to what you think jazz should be! Check this out! says Miles to the world in 1969). Even better, Miles still has people talking about this music more than 40 years later! Perhaps another issue to consider is the editing. Teo Macero produced this record and took it upon himself to splice together various jams to create the pieces as he saw fit. Some think that he did a masterful job, others have opined that he butchered it. I'm so used to it that I appreciate it the way it is, but one of these days I'd like to hear the unedited versions. The technique of tape editing had never been used before in jazz, so like the rest of the record, it was an experiment where sometimes the theoretical aspects of the experiment outran the aural results, but to my ear, the overall CD is a success. So, like it or not, but if you throw it out and it lies dormant in your head, you may find in a few years that you have an itch that only Bitches Brew will scratch. Or not. I had that experience with retsina ( a very dry white wine from Greece that is stored in pine casks, giving it a pronounced flavor of turpentine). My parents gave me a taste when I was 17 or so and I couldn't imagine that anyone would drink it by choice. 4 years later, all of a sudden I had a craving for it in the worst way! | ||
| pace
Senior Member Username: pace Post Number: 571 Registered: 4-2004 |
>>>it sounds like a load of musicians jamming or trying to jam to a completely erratic structure!!<<< Funny observation,Terry.... Pharaoh's Dance, the first track makes use of super long tape loops.... The title track has one of the best bass lines, and it doesn't matter if it ever lands on the same beat twice! There is "structure" in the BB sessions but it's a protozoan-like exoskeleton that encapsulates the mass and its flow. Give it a few more listens! For me, Jack DeJohnette's drumming makes the album. Listen to the drums, elec&up basses, bass clarinet, and keys.... It's organic, primordial, and urgent. >>>In fact I will go to say that it is crap, a self indulgence musical snobbery<<<< I've never thought to attach a sense "snobbery" or even Mile's "ego" to this material... Instead, I've always loved how at any given time EVERY player is bestowing a wealth of cosmic musical knowledge upon the listener... Even though Miles eventually got burnt out on this sort of thing, this era of his work opened doors for a whole lot of other musicians. >>>voted the best jazz album of all time<<< For me, not the best "jazz" album either, but this is the bedrock of electric fusion! Filles de Kilimanjaro might be a good listen for you, if this is too "erratic". If I read the NYT correctly, I'm pretty sure Mike Stern is doing a BB tribute tomorrow in Central Park!... | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 787 Registered: 1-2005 |
It's definitely a revolution in music - maybe focus more on the second disc first, the structures of the songs may be a bit more apparent. Also, check out the live albums like "Black Beauty" - a lot of the material from Bitches Brew is on there - I love the way they play the title track! It's more like heavy metal with the fuzz bass! | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1266 Registered: 11-2004 |
Okay. I take all these on board and I will listen with a more open mind approach. I love Miles's early work, it has feeling, it has funk, it has that lovely melodic/harmonic structure. Maybe I was expecting this piece to be more of the sum of it's parts.. Edwin.. your analysis is very worthy and I have read a few times now and will go and listen with a more realistic ear... pace..the bass seems lost in the mix but a push on the 50Hz slider will remedy that!! I remember the first time I listened to Soft Machine 6 and it was the same experience and after a while I realised that it was what I was looking for.. Maybe at 53 I have have become jaded in what I expect and should go back to being willing to listen and appreciate. Thanks for the suggestions and explanations..I will endeavour to be patient with this recording | ||
| pace
Senior Member Username: pace Post Number: 572 Registered: 4-2004 |
No Terry, please don't feel jaded, lost, or cynical in your search of music that suites YOU!!!! My first copy of Bitches Brew was on cassette. I used to put that in my boom-box, grab my skateboard and just cruise the streets of the city until dawn.... I guess some music doesn't make sense or relate until it's in the proper context..... | ||
| crobbins
Senior Member Username: crobbins Post Number: 643 Registered: 6-2004 |
Well said Edwin... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fytOvlJ0MrY | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1411 Registered: 9-2002 |
Back in the 70's, I thought I should get into Miles and I bought Live/Evil. It didn't hit me on any level, it was way past me, and I thought I just must be some Texas redneck and I just wasn't cool enough to 'get it'. FF thirty years: Last year I'm in the checkout at Walgreen's, and in the blowout CD's by the register was 'Kind of Blue', a Columbia re-issue for $1.99. OK, I bought it. It included liner notes, including a Leonard Feather reprint where he interviewed the Allmans during their heroic Fillmore East stand, who explained to him the the only two albums they'd listened to for the previous year were 'Kind of Blue' and John Coltrane's masterwork of the same time period, 'A Love Supreme' (gee, I wonder when Walgreen's will get that one . . . ). Now I got it. I may never get Bitches Brew-era Miles, but at least I'm not the total Texas oilfield trash I felt like all these years ! Now, where's my Buck Owens at Carnegie Hall . . . J o e y | ||
| hb3
Senior Member Username: hb3 Post Number: 491 Registered: 2-2005 |
I could never get into Bitch's Brew, but was able to get into some of the live stuff from that era. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1267 Registered: 11-2004 |
bigredbass...'Kind of Blue' is my all time Miles's favourite, I have listened to BB a few times now and does have some nice phrases. When I listen to John McLaughlin on the BB album his playing seems light years away from 'The Inner Mounting Flame'. I will keep listening but if it doesn't float my boat it goes in the trash..sorry but I had a CD clearout about a year ago..some of the stuff I had bought just to try it out was immense..it went to a charity shop so someone can appreciate it | ||
| eligilam
Advanced Member Username: eligilam Post Number: 270 Registered: 2-2006 |
I don't have BB, but I've had a similar experience with "Sketches of Spain." After the relatively easy "Birth of the Cool", SOS was a tough one to get through...but, after clenching my tympanic membranes and giving myself several pep talks in the mirror, I was able to peel away all the layers and start enjoying it. However, Captain Beefheart's "Lick My Decals Off, Baby" DID go into the garbage... | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 734 Registered: 10-2006 |
No question Miles was a genius, and everything I've heard from him amazes me. That said, I must admit I admire his music more than I enjoy it, and most days would prefer to listen to Buck with Joey. Peter | ||
| darkstar01
Advanced Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 222 Registered: 6-2005 |
if bitches brew is too much, clearly you're not fan of Coltrane's Ascension. that was a tough one to get through, but once i did i realized how great avant garde music is. anyway, the best part of that era of miles is the band that toured - miles, wayne shorter, chick corea, jack dejohnette and dave holland. that was the only band miles ever had to play all three generations of his music (standards, modal, electric stuff). they released a box set of one of their tours in the early nineties, but it's never been reissued and is pretty hard to find. it's awesome if you can get your hands on it, though. a lot of it is borderline free improv, especially when it's just the rhythm section. might be why miles never wanted it released. | ||
| pace
Senior Member Username: pace Post Number: 574 Registered: 4-2004 |
>>>Coltrane's Ascension. that was a tough one to get through, Popping either that or Sunship (i forget) into the player got me fired from the record store back in college....  | ||
| darkstar01
Advanced Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 223 Registered: 6-2005 |
hopefully sunship wouldn't get you fired. that's a great record. i used to get a kick out of sneaking peter brotzmann records (which for the most part are incredible) into the cd players in my music classes in high school. | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1268 Registered: 11-2004 |
Coltrane is a equal genius along with Miles and you are right darkstar01..Ascension is a difficult record to listen to, I much prefer 'Giant Steps', 'Love Supreme' etc. Listening to different music is education, I always say to young players, don't play the same music all the time, learn a little of some other stuff and you can guarantee you will get more dep work but don't give up your goal of being the best rock/jazz/funk/soul/C&W etc player in the world. | ||
| toma_hawk01
Junior Username: toma_hawk01 Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2009 |
The time period in which Bitches Brew was created, was exactly around the time Miles was entering a new musical direction. Anytime you break off into something new, it's suppose to be least understood by the masses and if blessed, the author is also lost of knowing where the journey takes him. At which point, musical unpredictability, and random sounds opened up a series of improvisations, where Jazz had finally reached a point, created it's own chaos. When music comes to this level, like in similar ways we try to understand how this earth was created... "big bang theory" or what have you, we know out of chaos, a new system, or organization (from the chaos) is born. I call it the "period when Jazz was in chaos" to give new life to a new art called: Fusion Jazz. At this point in time, I believe the life-cycle of Fusion Jazz has come to a point of "diminishing-return" and it needs it's own new "Bitches Brew" (if you know what I mean...). Once the alarm is loud enough "musically" the chaos will return. I hope to live long enough to hear it, but I don't think there's anyone on Mile Davis level nor who would dare have the guts. The music industry to say the least, was happy to see Miles Davis leave the seen in my naked opinion because he was shaking the tree too much, and the industry makes its money on stability and easy conceptual, musical designs. To listen to Miles Davis, requires a sense of musical and spiritual liberation from the J Edgar Hovers of the worlds. Yes, you would very hard pressed to find anybody from "Souls-ville USA" not loving Miles personal, and musical struggles which people now-of-days; take for granted. Miles opened up so many opportunity for young musicians. I believe Gil Evans contributed to the chaos too. However for me, it was the worst day in Jazz History. There will never be anyone coming close to Miles shadows in music. Peace and Love, Hal- (Message edited by toma_hawk01 on July 03, 2010) | ||
| toma_hawk01
Junior Username: toma_hawk01 Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2009 |
When music is of a "No Mystery" to the author, its commercial, and very predictable in trying to communicate with a familiar and very established and well organized media. I don't believe Jazz should ever be predictable. Therefore, like the Great Leader of Jazz tried to explain, "Jazz should always be a mystery..." I love Bitches Brew's message. I am pleasantly reminded by Allan Holdsworth's song "In The Mystery" which stimulates my psyche to know Jazz should always be a mystery. Peace and Love, Hal- (Message edited by toma_hawk01 on July 02, 2010) | ||
| hb3
Senior Member Username: hb3 Post Number: 492 Registered: 2-2005 |
Sort of. Isn't one's philosophical understanding of music separate from one's appreciation of it? I like "On the Corner" and "In a Silent Way" a lot. Can't stand "Bitches Brew." (Message edited by hb3 on July 02, 2010) | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1114 Registered: 5-2009 |
All in all , Miles really stuck his neck out during this phase in his carrier . He received mixed feelings and reviews and lots of flack from traditionalists of his time. God Bless Miles , he gave many a young player the opportunity to make them selves known and gain exposure. Miles was an explorer in an unexplored territory of time and space sound and experience. Miles is a still a Hero in the world of innovation and is alive and well in the pulse and spark of improvisational and notated Music. Miles is forever ! Miles is the man ________ Who Knows ,___Miles Davis might even be jamming on a" Dark Star" jam with Jerry Garcia as I write this ! | ||
| toma_hawk01
Junior Username: toma_hawk01 Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2009 |
Allan Holdsworth's song "In The Mystery" In the mystery In the mystery Just like a shadow at the Jet Cafe The secrets of life in his attache The clue to the ancient symbols of power That fell to earth in a meteor shower (In the mystery) I am the one who lives in your dreams At nighttime I'm out reliving me No earthly restrictions to hide what I see 'Cause I live out in the mystery Does the world change when I open my eyes? Do dreams cause matter to synthesize? Are these questions answered when I'm asleep? Somewhere deep in the mystery Chorus: In the mystery (In the mystery) In the mystery (In the mystery) In the mystery (In the mystery) Stunned by the sirens of the secret police There was no time, he must retreat He ran for the shore of the astral sea Into the cave of the mystery He heard their voices from outside the cave In his sanctuary he was no slave They offered him riches beyond belief But none worth more than the mystery (Chorus) [Guitar solo] Does the world change when I open my eyes? Do dreams cause matter to synthesize? Are these questions answered when I'm asleep? Somewhere deep in the mystery (Chorus) A Lovely Song... I think of Great minds (who once lived) when I listen to this song... Peace and Love, Hal- (Message edited by toma_hawk01 on July 02, 2010) | ||
| nnek
Junior Username: nnek Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2009 |
I've got to say I bought Bitches Brew in Vinyl as well as Ascension..... I loved BB but Ascension was a drug crazed session of crap that sold on name alone. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 673 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hugh, that's interesting that you don't like BB but like On the Corner. I can't stand On The Corner, although it may be the mix. That freakin' hihat just drives me nuts after a while. I'd love to be able to remix that album. I agree with you about In A Silent Way, though. Great album! I have a quadrophonic copy of BB on vinyl. Too bad I've never had a decoder to hear it that way. It would be fun if they reissued that mix on DVD-A. | ||
| darkstar01
Advanced Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 224 Registered: 6-2005 |
nnek, it's funny you say that... considering the fact that there was probably far more drug use going on during the recording of bb than there was ascension (seeing how it's well documented that miles' electronic work almost directly coincided with his massive cocaine habit). 'trane started both sessions with a prayer, kind of like a love supreme. yeah, he probably ate some acid, too. but to call it crap is a bit far. if you don't like it, fine. but that record is pretty important to some people, myself included. miles was a genius, sure.. but coltrane is god. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4480 Registered: 7-2004 |
I thought Clapton was god. Bill, tgo | ||
| darkstar01
Advanced Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 225 Registered: 6-2005 |
haha, sorry bill, but i don't think even clapton has this: http://www.coltranechurch.org/ (and ftr, i realize they don't think he's god). | ||
| terryc
Senior Member Username: terryc Post Number: 1279 Registered: 11-2004 |
Sorry folks.. Bitches Brew has gone in the trash..it annoyed me too much! | ||
| darkstar01
Advanced Member Username: darkstar01 Post Number: 226 Registered: 6-2005 |
who throws cd/records away? just donate it to the record store or something. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1135 Registered: 5-2009 |
That's OK Terry , I can not expect everyone one to like everything. The recording is immortal and we still love you . You are a brave man for your honesty. I respect honesty and I think MIles would as well. Miles was able to effect you with this recording by your reaction to it. That is how Art is ; you either like it or do not like it. That said ; it's ALL cool . Ok all __________. | ||
| toma_hawk01
Junior Username: toma_hawk01 Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2009 |
If that CD could talk, it would sing this song to those who tossed it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y99tXNxV5s Peace and Love, Hal- | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1137 Registered: 5-2009 |
That spell is real as long as we react to Art . | ||
| toma_hawk01
Junior Username: toma_hawk01 Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2009 |
On a serious tip... If Bitches Brew was animated like Walt Disney did with Fantasia, that would be a an awesome master piece. The music just dances and creates all kinds of scenes and "object-logical-illogical" situations. This would make Alice and Wonderland creators wonder. This is what Art suppose to do... it makes you react and do something... (Hopefully something positive...). But, it's cool not to like something too. I have no problems with people being real about their likes and dislikes. With today's era of music, the landfill business is a sure bet to invest. Peace and Love, Hal- (Message edited by toma_hawk01 on July 12, 2010) | ||
| bluplirst
Member Username: bluplirst Post Number: 94 Registered: 12-2004 |
Good to have you back, Hal. | ||
| toma_hawk01
Junior Username: toma_hawk01 Post Number: 40 Registered: 9-2009 |
I'll jump in every now an then... "Cause I'll be standing on the side When you check it out..." Hal- |
