| Author | Message | ||
| rebelchile
New Username: rebelchile Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hi, I have an Essence 4 string with Europa electronics and have been using a Mackie 1400I power amp for some years now, and it died on me this weekend. I am playing through an Eden 410xlt @ 700 watts rms and an Eden 118xlt cab @ 500 watts rms with an Alembic F-2B stereo Preamp and a DBX 160A compressor limiter. I used a QSC PLX3602 for the show Saturday night in place of my wasted Mackie 1400I and the QSC was undoubtedly the best sounding power amp I have used YET!!! Which QSC amp do you guys suggest for my setup, as sometimes I only run the 410xlt cab, and if the room is large enough I run the 118xlt together with the 410?? Thanks | ||
| 2400wattman
Senior Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 820 Registered: 11-2005 |
Just source out another 3602 and be done with it. It obviuosly delivered what you liked and quite frankly being short on power sucks when you are trying to drive two cabs. The amp will be fine driving one cab just adjust the attenuators accordingly. Get down!!! | ||
| charles_holmes
Member Username: charles_holmes Post Number: 62 Registered: 3-2009 |
I agree with wattman. In addition, it sounds as though you have answered your own questions.... " and the QSC was undoubtedly the best sounding power amp I have used YET!!" I use the QSC 2450 & I'm guessing just by the number of the QSC that you mentioned, it may be superior to mine, but I may be wrong. | ||
| crgaston
Senior Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 606 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi Greg! Are both your Edens 8 ohms? Really, a 2402 would probably do it with a 4-string and a compressor, but look at Ebay for a 3002 or 3402 too. These are slightly older versions of the 2502, 3102, and 3602. The previous generation PLX amps are just as good as the new ones (very slightly lower wattage ratings, DIP switches for configuration instead of bigger, more easily adjustable ones on the newer ones) and an awesome bargain now that the PLX2's are out. I picked up a 3402 for 550 last year and love it. Check the classifieds here. Danno had a 2402 for sale a while back... he might still have it. Also, an 1804 might suit you as well. It lacks the protection circiutry (but you'd get that from your DBX), highpass filter (not as important on a 4) a parallel input (buy a Y-cable) and the ability to run at 2 ohms, but it's much shallower and 8 pounds lighter. You could make a handy little rig with that amp. A regular PLX amp will fit in a Gator Shallow rack just fine if you unplug the speaker cables from the back. Also, I'm curious as to what you're doing for a DI? Good luck! Charles (Message edited by crgaston on August 17, 2010) | ||
| rebelchile
New Username: rebelchile Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2008 |
Thanks for the input, charles holmes I am researching QSC 2450's as we speak. They are the big favorite around here with sound techs they love'm for monitors, and when you bridge one of them, @ 4 ohm load you've got plenty. The 3402 is a "HOSS" of a power amp, it's almost over-kill. Although, as crgaston said, if I can get a good deal on one of the older series, at the same power that would be the ticket. Yes, both of my cabs are 8 ohms each, but as I said, I can only use the 18" in a much larger room. So the 410xlt is the most used combination by far. So I guess it's between the 2450 or an earlier series of the 3000's. Thing is....with the 3000's it's a whole lot easier to blow speakers, especially using the 1 cabinet setup. DECISIONS....DECISIONS.... Also, all of my hardware is rack mounted, and to crgaston.....at the risk of sounding stupid...what is DI???? direct input???? Thanks again so much, and if Danno reads this, do you still have the 2402 crgaston is speaking of????? and what are the specs on it??? | ||
| crgaston
Senior Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 608 Registered: 11-2005 |
OK, I lied... Danno has a 1602. Greg, generally speaking, power doesn't blow speakers...clipping does. That 700 watt Eden will soak up everything you can throw at it so long as you don't clip the power amp. A good rule of thumb is to get a power amp that makes 1.5-2x the power rating of your cabinets. Where a high-wattage amp is an advantage is on the transients...when you throw down a 3-string E chord to finish a song or hit a note extra-hard, the big amp will have the headroom so that it can take the sudden increase in signal without clipping. Think of it like this... say your normal stage volume is like a guy loading 50 pound bags onto a truck. When a 100 pound bag shows up, a weaker guy will have to struggle with it (clipping), but a stronger guy will still be able to toss it on the truck no problem. But you have another advantage... your compressor. You can set your compressor so that it limits the amount of signal going to the amp so it will never clip no matter how hard you hit it. This will allow you to increase your average volume without worrying that you'll overload the amp when you really play hard. The 2450 is a much larger, heavier amp than any of the PLX series amps because it has an old-school iron transformer. Lots of people (myself included) think iron transpormer amps sound better than the lightweight amps. This is because the iron transformers store energy so that it can be released when you need it, rather than making it on the spot like the lightweight amps do. This feature acts to increase headroom as well, making a lower-powered iron-transformer amp equivalent, tone and headroom wise, to a higher powered modern lightweight amp. They just have a lot more "punch" than the lightweight amps do. If you don't mind a 40-50 pound amp, take a look at the old Crest Pro 6001 or 7001, or a Crown K2. They are reasonably affordable and I promise you they will make you think that the 3602 sounds weak. Why don't I use one? The weight and size. Period. If I were to ever get a house gig where I didn't have to move the amp, I'd get one in a heartbeat. Yes, DI = Direct Input. It's how you send your signal to the front-of house console. Lastly, I would point out that you don't need to bridge the amp if you are using a high powered one like the PLX 3602. Just use one channel for each speaker. You can set them up so that the one output from your F2B goes equally to both amp channels. You could just use one channel when you're running your 4x10, and both when you add your 18. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 705 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think Charles is right, a 2402 should be fine and anything above is icing on the cake. However, I've been using a Crest CA9 and loving it. The only downside is that it's just shy of 60lbs. I have found that it seems to provide a more solid low end than the QSCs I've used in the past. Edwin | ||
| 2400wattman
Senior Member Username: 2400wattman Post Number: 822 Registered: 11-2005 |
I will agree with Edwin and Charles about the Crest stuff. I had a CA-6 and sold since my F1-X was clipping the input section on the amp. Otherwise those are stout bastards and can deliver the goods. I have recently discovered that I actually was'nt clipping the amp but the amp's signal led's showed I was near 10-15db of clipping. I would love to have that amp back but the Crown K2 I sold it for is lighter and just as stout. I would still look for something with a higher power rating for my reasons above. You won't regret it. | ||
| rebelchile
New Username: rebelchile Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2008 |
Hey crgaston, no problem on Danno's 1602...I found it in the classifieds. I will check out the Crown's and the Crest's, I am interested in the QSC 2450's..the price is right but I am a little concerned with the "made in China" sticker on the back...although they have great reviews all over the internet. I too like the old style heavy transformers, and, (but), on the other hand, 40-50lbs of weight added to the rack is still a pain in the back ;-) I run my bass into a direct box, and from the direct box to the snake, and then on out to the console. From the direct box "out jack" I run to my rack, the preamp and then into the compressor, and from the compressor into the power amp, then of coarse to the cab(s). I'll have to find a special deal, and save some serious bucks to do a 3000 series power amp. One of those, or a Crown is really what I want. I never really was satisfied with the Mackie, it just always lacked the extra balls. And the wierd thing about it that's confusing my decision is, the Mackie and the QSC 2450 are not that much different in specs, (power). I haven't played through a 2450, does anyone know if the lows are as pronounced with that model as they are with the QSC PLX3000 series??? or the Crown and Crest series in the same power parameters??? And as far as running in bridge mode, although I ran my rig bridged for quite sometime, after I experienced the extra power and muscle from the last show @ 750 watts per channel (unbridged), my rig seemed to my ear "tighter and much more efficient" a much better tone, when I played at different positions from the front pickup to the rear, and sounded "heavy, with low end punch" when I dug into my DR Highbeams, and then I could change position and attack and make it smooth and warm. I love that power, man I do love it.... | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1469 Registered: 9-2002 |
BIG power is its own reward. Everything all have said above is true. Any half-ass amp will toot along, but when you dig in, the big amps will have no problem keeping up; past playing in your living room, 'just-enough-amp' is the LAST place you want to be. Remember, you're pushing bass, not miking a flute! If that big QSC you used after the Mackie went South was that fine, GET one. From my own experience, thinking you'll get the same tone a little cheaper and 'I probably don't need that much amp' smaller will not serve you well. J o e y | ||
| bassilisk
Member Username: bassilisk Post Number: 79 Registered: 4-2009 |
I've been using a PLX2402 for some years now and I am totally satisfied with it. Just an ass kicking amp all around. Plus their Customer Sevice is stellar. Example - when I got mine I bought their bracket that stabilizes the back of the amp in the case. 2 weeks - no bracket. I email and (I believe her name was Suzy) says no problem, mails out another one which I get in 4 days. Meanwhile, my mailman finds an envelope down the block that's been sitting in the hall for some time. He looks, recognizes my name and brings it over. It was the first set, mis-addressed! I sent them back on my own dime. | ||
| smokinbear
Member Username: smokinbear Post Number: 93 Registered: 11-2008 |
Don't count out Crown! I use an older used macrotech 2402 and aside from the weight it has headroom and power for days! I run 2 ev dmx3500??? 15's rated at 500 watts each plus a 8x10 all at 2 or 4 ohms. And yes the DBX160a is very helpful also. Got my crown off the web for $700.00. :-) Still serviceable if needed locally....Bear | ||
| rebelchile
Junior Username: rebelchile Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2008 |
I agree with you guys 1000%....I don't give a crap what the general public says, only a true bass player understands when it sounds AND feels right.. One of my sound tech friends told me something as well. When you have enough power to push each cabinet without bridging, plugging into both channels on the pwr amp. If something happens to one of the channels in the amp, you still have a good channel that has enough non bridged power to run 1 cabinet with no problems. I have made up my mind.....I'm going for the Big Power like big red bass said. I think that all, and all, its a safety net as well as efficiency on the power end. And I have seen the times, that I wished I had more power, the Mackie just didn't have the extra balls when I was in a 2 guitar, and "Big" keyboard rig situation.....They were LOUD players..... Thanks to all, for the excellent advice...greg | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1251 Registered: 7-2003 |
I use a 2402 in the same general way you are talking about. It sounds great, always works fine - can't say enough good for the model. I've never come close to using its full power - indoor or outdoor. Plus it's under 20 lb and (since it's the older series and discontinued) a real bargain. A 3002 or 3602 would be nice, but would only give you more margin of power you wouldn't use. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1474 Registered: 9-2002 |
I would respectfully disagree. IF I were building a stage rig again, short of a 5000w per side monster, for me there is no margin of power I wouldn't use. Of course, how much weight, etc., you want to drag around is a personal choice. But I've been drowned out by a geek with a Marshall half-stack for the last time. Plus let me play something with lots of low D's and C's, and I can tell RIGHT NOW if that margin of power was enough. I was never fortunate enough to play smart stages with proper PA's, I always had to bring my own bulldozer, so to speak. So I'm soooo done with 'just enough amp'. There . . . . I feel better now. Excuse me, fellas. J o e y | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1216 Registered: 5-2009 |
Here you go, Powerful , and it is convection cooled (no fan )! http://bryston.com/14bsst_r.html http://bryston.com/14bsst_spec.html | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 2682 Registered: 10-2002 |
Sorry Joey but I'm going to side with Bill on this one. I also use a PLx2402 into a pair of 4 ohm cabinets(usually two 2x12 but sometimes a 4x10 will creep in there) so max output is 700 watts per channel. Now the PLX goes up to 32 (eat your heart our nigel tufnell) but I've never pushed it past 26 on a normal pub stage where there's no backline reinforcement through the PA. I've never had a problem being heard (or felt) right out to the back of the room. If it's been a bigger gig, I'll run it through the PA and may even consider turning the amp down to 24. However, just to add some balance, if I had the chance I'd build the biggest rig I could; our rhythm guitarist has an orange tiny terror playing through a single 12" cab and when it's switched to 17 watts it's deafening. Graeme | ||
| rebelchile
Junior Username: rebelchile Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2008 |
jacko....thats what I'm saying....nowadays guitar players have the option of tiny little DR. Z's and other little baby rigs that will peel the bark off of a banshee's butt @ 100yds. So with this in mind, we are still having to..as joey said, "bring my own bulldozer" in some cases. It's no fun to power up on stage and not be able to lay down enough bottom for any situation that you run into. And, if you've got mega power,.....why can't you just turn back the gain on the individual power amp channel(s) if the situation calls for less volume?? Then on the other hand, when you need to lower the blade and push hard,LOL!! you've got all you need right behind you, just waiting for a twist of the dial....Just wondering?? greg | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1477 Registered: 9-2002 |
The thing that Mica once said that your instrument is (the bass+amp+speakers+cables/effects); it's something you're never taught. I would hazard a guess that none of us ever decided we had to have this bass or that bass since it would be perfect with the amp we were using, no other reason, just that. In 30+ years, I've never been truly satisfied with an amp. I've never felt I had a great tone onstage, and I certainly could never hear myself properly amidst the 'sturm und drang' of virtually every band or venue I was ever in. Whether it was a sledgehammerin' loud rock situation, a country band, a corner of the dining room casual, I've never found the sound I heard in my head. I've been continually confounded by room acoustics vs. bass: The hot spots (everybody else on stage says you're killing them) and the dead spots (any place I was standing). Plus I'd get twangy enough to hear myself and lose bottom end; bring in a nice round bottom, it goes to mud and I can't hear myself properly. And then of course, nobody ELSE thinks they're too loud. Then . . . does it sound better pushing a small amp into certain tones, or a big amp turned up just to two, I've had it both ways. I really thought I quit gigging as I didn't want to chase skirts, smoke dope, or drink, thereby cutting my list of possible situations down by 90%. I think I burned out actually as I'm tired of never finding that right 'instrument' in total to where I felt comfortably competent to do it any more. I am certain though that bigger is better, and like most things I'm a dinosaur in a new world full of 4-pound amps and neodymium cabs. I guess I'll always be tilting at windmills . . . man, this thread pushed a lot of buttons in me. J o e y | ||
| rebelchile
Junior Username: rebelchile Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2008 |
Joey,...you my friend...have got to be a mirrored reflection of myself...I have fought the same scenerios all of my years as a bass player too. The closest that I could get to "THE" perfect tone for me...in my early days was a 1962 Fender Pre CBS Jazz bass and an Acoustic 371 head with (2) Acoustic 371 15" bass cabs. That lasted for awhile.....but it also lost its pazazz...not heavy enough on the bottom end. I played Beach Music for a couple of years after the rock-n-roll Acoustic rig era.......bummer....I was too rock-n-roll for them....bummer....I'd rather play country, it has a nice smooth groove....I was always too loud....another bummer....but not as bad... Now at 54, I am going back to the begining...to my roots... for an audition with a kick butt rock-n-roll band. Good players..good vocals, the whole cheese. Maybe I'll make it...that's why I'm asking all of you these questions. The ironic fact is,...we all face the same problems....trying to make a compromise with the other players, trying to compromise with the sound tech, trying to tame the "Tone Demon"...and like one other member said, a large percentage of the audience can't tell the difference one way or the other in bass tone. But I too am a power freek, bigger is better to me as well. I will not back down to "less is best in all situations", I have always thought that one of the reasons a bass player caught so much crap in a (group situation) was because of pure jealousy...along with the help of a good drummer they control the foundation, feel, timing, groove, and much of the structure of a song.... my 02... greg |
