| Author | Message | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1254 Registered: 7-2003 |
Has anybody seen or tried the new Acme 112 new "Flatwound" cab? (http://acmebass.com/ -- click "Products" then "Series III") | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9695 Registered: 5-2002 |
Interesting; reading it now. Thanks for posting about it. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9696 Registered: 5-2002 |
37 lbs. I have a Low B-2; it's a great cab. So I'm guessing this will be a great cab too. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1515 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've just spent the last 20 minutes reading Andy's exposition about this thing, a brilliant idea. Will be terrific integrating this Neo technology into the three-way bins. I've heard of more than one case of Neo cabs turning into firetraps or expensive, mute paperweights. So I'm pleased that Andy seems to have really glommed onto the advances he's found from Eminence. But as usual, an elegantly simple answer to a complex question can take a while to digest. And as always the question passes through my head, vis-a-vis his excellent three-way bins: Do I really want/need a 20-20k response cabinet for bass, and is my bass putting out anything past the 6k top end of the Q-switch filters that Alembic uses, or anyone else's pickups/electronics for that matter. . . . David Fung, are you out there? J o e y | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1255 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joey - Your question about the viability of ultra high frequencies for bass is relevant to me, as I function mostly in the midst of a live rock mix (further downgraded by typically enormous, practical PA limitations). In many cases, the most that gets across the noise barrier to an audience is the fundamental voice of the bass itself and the ability of my stage rig to produce lows, low mids and high mids. The ability to punch true high frequencies through the mix is unreliable. What started for me as a vintage throwback experiment, using a Mesa Powerhouse 115 (with its excellent horn system) stacked with a Mesa Roadready 115 (no horn) loaded with an Eminence Kappalite 3015 has turned out to produce one of the most musical and relatively articulate stage sounds I've ever had. I'm very interested in Andy's flatwound (one-way) 112 to hear whether it would take this concept a positive and realistic step toward better articulation. I've paired 12s with 15s and ironically had results that, while good, were not as musical as my current 2 X 115 array. I'm going to have to get one of the new Acmes to see if it would be a still-better complement to one of my 115s. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 338 Registered: 5-2007 |
This is VERY interesting to me as I have 2 of the Low B-2 cabs already. I've had great service from them (except for the time I blew one up by cranking a 1000-watt amp through it). The idea of a lighter one with the sound of a 12" speaker is very appealing. Glad you posted this, Bill. I think I will have to call Andy Lewis... | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 766 Registered: 5-2002 |
I went down to Denver and played through one for a bit. It was just in Andy's living room, but it was a very impressive little cab. I have a B2 as well. The thing that I noted right away was how smooth the frequency response was. It really felt like I was playing the same bass all the way from the lowest to highest notes (I brought my Modulus Q6 for the test). However, I did miss the high end extension. I think once he gets his coaxial thing together, I might have to get a pair of them, especially now that Euphonic Audio can no longer service my CXL12s if I blow them up. All in all, a great cabinet! I don't think it will compete with a double 15 but two of them would give it a run for their money! | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9700 Registered: 5-2002 |
Edwin; what does this mean - "now that Euphonic Audio can no longer service my CXL12s". And thanks for your review. I was feeling the same way, that I would miss the high end extension. So it will be interesting to see what he does with the neos in a two or three way cab. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 767 Registered: 5-2002 |
The people who make the driver for the CXL-12 either no longer make spare parts for it or went out of business. When I mentioned how robust that cabinet was with a Crest CA9 to the EA guys, they cautioned me not to blow it up, because I couldn't recone it or find a driver that would match the exact tuning of the cabinet. Thus, I'm a little tempted to sell my EA cabs once Andy's new cab becomes a two way. Of course, at this point I kind of have an excess of cabinets, so who knows what the future holds. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9701 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Edwin; interesting that they can't replace the drivers. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1516 Registered: 9-2002 |
Dave, the current-day EA with those silly little cabinets with WIZZER(!) cones is a far cry from the bunch that built those transmission line cabinets. Time marches on . . . . J o e y | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1256 Registered: 7-2003 |
I'm curious what a Flatwound 112 (or a pair) on top of one of my fave 115s would sound like. How 'bout 3 or 4 Flatwounds(!?!)? Hmm. Gotta unload some gear before I can afford to find out. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 768 Registered: 5-2002 |
Joey- Apparently a lot of people like the wizzer powered cabinets. However, I've never played one of them. But I do think that a lot of the same people are at EA. Gary Gibilisco and John Dong are still there, as they have from the beginning. Bill, I think a pair of the flatwounds would make a 15 completely unnecessary. 3 or 4 would be wonderful! A nice tall stack of flatwounds would be a great sounding and very loud rig. I would love to do this, probably with the top one being a coaxial and the rest just single driver. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4603 Registered: 7-2004 |
"I've heard of more than one case of Neo cabs turning into firetraps or expensive, mute paperweights." I haven't. So what's the story? I replaced the stock speaker in my Pritchard Sword of Satori amp with a 4 ohm Jensen Neo (the amp uses a 4 ohm speaker stock). It is going to blow up? Set my house on fire? Die? Should I run home and save my family? Is the sky falling? Bill, tgo | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1519 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bill, more than one manufacturer went through several iterations of Neo speakers for bass, before feeling like the technology was far enough along to maintain a supportable warranty rate. As usual, for guitars or other apps, the physics involved were small enough not to matter. There seemed to have been quite a bit of work to get Neos for bass to that point, and you only see them in cabs for a 200-400 watt range, a lot of combo amps. No, I don't think your house will burn down. But it's interesting to read Andy's explanantion about how long it's taken him to find something that would work for his application. And like most things bass, when I hear that EAW or TurboSound or the reinforcement guys have adopted versions for live sound work, then I'll feel a little more satisfied that it's a maturing technology. But that's just me. I would not be ready to run an F2B and a big QSC into a small stack of Neo bins. Edwin, for me the Wizzer cabs speakers are just as bogus in bass cabs as they were in car stereo or home audio. And to me, EA understandably has tried to take a turn to a more mainstream business profile to make more income, and that's fine. But in no way for me does their new stuff replace the startling performance of those little transmission line cabs. I guess that's all the wildly unsupportable BS opinion I have to spew about this . . . J o e y | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1269 Registered: 12-2004 |
If this cab is of interest, and you have moderate DIY skills, the fEarful design on talkbass is pretty sweet. Make that really sweet. With 350 watts from my GK MB500, it gets stupid, stupid loud while being about as accurate a bass cab as I've ever seen. | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1257 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joey: I guess I tend to agree with your caution about running really significant power through neos in a live situation (at least to regard doing so as relatively risk free). It seems notable to me that there don't seem to be an enormous number of PA builders creating compact 118 sub bins around the silly light weight of neo 18s (Carvin might be the only exception (with their neo PA line - but the lack of others illustrates the point). On the other hand, Mesa's neo-driven 212 (nice and light) regularly receives rave reviews without any reports of failures. In a similar light, I played out for a year and a half with a Dr Bass 212 loaded with standard neo Kappalite 3012lfs (1100w peak, driven by various preamps and a QSC 2402) and found it the most reliable piece of my rig. I'm currently abusing neo Kappalite 15s in several applications with no problems. Shifting gears slightly, I think my biggest remaining point of skepticism on Andy's Flatwound 12s is more about efficiency/power consumption (I'm a rocker) than the durability/reliability/fire safety of neo cabs in high power, demanding, live applications. I love the compact, clean, but still very deep low end 12s produce. As a former Acme guy, I'm still in awe of how much low end extension Andy squeezed out of his 10s. But the need to pour inordinately high power into a stack of, say - 4 112 Flatwounds to reach sufficient volume for the music is a source of frustration. I suppose I've become accustomed to seeing a typical 2500 level power amp as delivering lots of extra headroom - rather than just being adequate (hopefully) to the application. Still interested in trying out the Flatwounds, and willing to take the leap of faith on the neos. But just saying... | ||
| byoung
Senior Member Username: byoung Post Number: 1270 Registered: 12-2004 |
Bill, The Eminence 3012LF and 3015LF (this is what the fEarful design uses) will handle silly amounts of power, and get very loud. 500 watts into a 3012LF == 120dB. 1000 watts into a 3015LF == 126dB. There is a 2x3015LF design, and it's just absurd. I don't think that the neo designs have issues per se, but there may be some designs that have issues. Bradley | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 350 Registered: 5-2007 |
I just heard from Andy Lewis at Acme; I asked him if his Low B series cabinets could approximate the sound from the new Flatwound cabinets. He said if you attenuate the tweeter totally and attenuate the midrange 5db you would get close. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 781 Registered: 5-2002 |
I own a B2 and have played the Flatwound and I think they are very different. While there might be a similarity in frequency response by attenuating the mids and highs, there's still a very different feel. The Flatwound feels a lot more smooth throughout the different registers. The B2 is a great cabinet and has a very nice flat frequency response, but there is something about no crossover and having everything reproduced by one driver in a well tuned cabinet that just feels different. It really makes the bass feel like the same instrument all the way through its various registers. I know what I say probably doesn't make all that much sense, but I think there is something about the idea that the fewer items you have between string and ear, the better. This includes multiple drivers and crossover components. I would love to get a Flatwound or three someday, but I still need to recover from my Series I. YMMV, etc. etc. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 353 Registered: 5-2007 |
Edwin, I guess I need to do an A/B test. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 784 Registered: 5-2002 |
Yeah, I'd love to try a pair of Flatwounds on a gig. It's definitely not a real world test to try it out in Andy's living room! | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1259 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bradley: Didn't mean to overstate any caution on my part about neos. My go to cabs tonight are a Mesa Road Ready 115 loaded with a 3015HO stacked on top of a homegrown (built to BagEnd S15B-D specs - the big, deep one), powered by a Mesa M-Pulse. I have been very impressed with the 3015/3012 series'. Till recently I had a 3012LF-loaded Dr Bass 212 in my rig - silly loud is a good way to put it. I was just highlighting the concern that drove me out of Acmes a few years back - the need for so much power to attain good rock volume. Not insurmountable, but I have sort of enjoyed leaving my rack home sometimes. |
