| Author | Message | ||
| ajish4
Junior Username: ajish4 Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hi Guys, Just wondering, I've never done it before, how do I set the intonation on my Epic 4 string? I'm saving my pennies and trying not to have to pay to have it done anymore. I had the bass set up about a year ago, but after a few string changes, the bass doesn't feel the same as it did after the set up and I could use all the help I can get! Also, a quick question on strings if I could. I'm sure there is as many opinions as strings themselves, but... I really need a nice mellow Jazz bass sound. We have a new music minister who asked if I could "smooth it out" a bit. I've Always used Rotosounds, Ken Smith, Alembic or Blue Steel strings. Really looking to get that nice low clean Jazz sound. Any suggestions? Thanks so much! | ||
| dumfuxx
Junior Username: dumfuxx Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2005 |
check in the faq/must read for 'setup' there are a couple of detailed posts on setup that I have followed and worked great. String wise, it sounds like you are looking for tomastik infield jazz flats. use the search function on both of these. Gary | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2228 Registered: 5-2002 |
TI Jazz Rounds are a lot more mellow that Rotosounds as well, but not as much as the Flats. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2229 Registered: 5-2002 |
As Gary said, there are some great posts and discussions about setting up your instrument in the Must Reads section. And although I'm fairly sure there's been a post about setting intonation before, I don't see anything on quick glance through the Must Reads. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2230 Registered: 5-2002 |
Let's see if I can put something together here. When I tune up, I tune by playing a harmonic at the fifth fret. So once the string is in tune at the fifth fret, to set the intonation, I check the tuning at the 24th fret by, as carefully as I can, pressing straight down on the string and carefully playing a note without moving my fretting finger. To check that I actually placed my finger straight down, I'll move it side to side as if to bend the string, which should make it go sharp in both directions. (Note: checking the intonation should be done with the bass in playing position, not lying on the workbench.) If the intonation needs adjusting, I detune the string a little to where I can lift it up off the saddle with my left hand; then with my right hand, I place the Allen wrench in the adjustment screw. If the note at the 24th fret is sharp, you'll want to turn the wrench clockwise so that the saddle moves toward the rear of the bridge, increasing the length of the string. Then retune the string at the fifth fret and recheck the 24th fret. You may have to do this several times. If the adjustment screw is spunky and the saddle doesn't want to move easily; it should be cleaned. Place the instrument on the workbench (I always use a protective surface such as a blanket). Detune the strings and move them out of the way. Take a cloth and slide it under the bridge to protect the body. Take a dry toothbrush and clean the screws (but not with tooth paste). Take some light oil such as 3-in-1 and apply just a drop. You don't want too much. If you need to, loosen the nut at the other end of the adjustment screw by holding it with a nut driver (preferably, or carefully with needle nose pliers) and turning the screw with the Allen wrench. With the nut loose, you should be able to turn the adjustment screw with the fingers of your right hand while holding the saddle with the fingers of your left hand, more easily moving the saddle back and forth, getting it out of the way so you can clean where the saddle was, and working it through the oil so that it spreads evenly over the screw. Once the screw is cleaned and oiled, carefully retighten the nut to where it's just firm; you don't want to over tighten. You also don't want to leave it loose. Remove the cloth, retune the strings, and set the intonation. The saddle should move easily and setting the intonation will be pleasurable. | ||
| xlrogue6
Member Username: xlrogue6 Post Number: 100 Registered: 8-2002 |
The truly tuning obssessive should bear in mind that the 12th fret harmonic is the only one that is truly and completely "in tune". Thanks to divergence between the laws of physics and the principles of tempered tuning, all the other harmonics are off by a few cents. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2236 Registered: 5-2002 |
Perhaps then, my method is not the best method. I'm sure we've discussed this before; I'll see if I can find it. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2237 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here is a previous discussion on tuning. | ||
| ajish4
Junior Username: ajish4 Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hi Dave, Thanks for the info! I really appreciate it! I was looking through the old posts and didn't find anything as helpful as what you just described. I'll also go back and read the last link you just sent. I just ordered a set of tomastik infield jazz flats as dumfuxx (you gotta love that name) suggested I give them a try. I too (as malthumb mentioned in another post about strings) purchased those $9.99 Ken Smith strings from Sam Ash a few weeks back, but they seemed to go flat really fast. I only play in church on Sunday morning, so I didn't feel that they lasted me too long. With my frequent string changes, I've noticed the 'ol Epic just doesn't feel the same and its been driving my nutty. Thanks again for all the help! Tony | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2252 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tony, note that when you change from one brand or type of string to another, you will probably need to reset the intonation. | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 195 Registered: 1-2004 |
The easiest way to set your intonation perfectly is with a strobe tuner. If you know someone that has one see of you can borrow it. The way I check the intonation without a strobe tuner is to just compare the harmonic at the 12th fret to the fretted note at the 12th fret and adjust the saddle accordingly. I use this same method with my fretless basses, though it's a bit tricky to get it perfect without frets... In any case, 90% of my playing is between the nut and maybe the 15th fret. So I think it's best to optimize at the 12th fret rather than the 24th. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 493 Registered: 11-2002 |
Agreed, I've always set intonation at the 12th - thought that was such a "given" that it didn't even register Dave had suggested the 24th (or maybe it's the glasses thing again...). I'll also second the motion for using a strobe, for tuning in general but especially for intonation. It will save a lot of time and frustration, and you'll end up doing a better job. And as Dave says, a clean and properly lubricated bridge will make the entire experience much more "pleasurable". Though personally, I'd just take the bridge off entirely and ensure that all the saddles move through their full range of travel without binding, after cleaning and oiling as needed. (I actually found some binding straight from the factory, so it's worth checking.) To review, - Set intonation last, after doing any other setup adjustments. Intonate any time you've changed the truss rod tension, or bridge height, or changed to a new set of strings. A new set of "identical" strings will usually be pretty close (still worth checking), but different gauges or brands will certainly require adjustment. - Even if you don't change anything, you might check it (say every six months or so), because (a) you'll get better at it with practice, and (b) your playing style may change and it is somewhat dependent on how hard you fret. - Always make the adjustments in playing position, with all the other strings properly tuned. Re-tune the string you're working on after each adjustment, and give it a little stretch in the process to make sure it has had a chance to shift and settle over the saddle. - Be as consistent and precise when fretting the note as possible. Straight down, no bending - but just as importantly, use the same pressure and fingering angle as you would when playing normally. This makes a big difference. - Do not assume that the saddles will all end up in a nice looking, perfectly diagonal line. Generally the higher strings will end up shorter, but you may see some variations. - The basic rule is that you adjust the string length, by moving the saddle, so that the fretted note matches the harmonic, both at the 12th fret. If the fretted note is sharp, compared to the harmonic or tuner, then you want to make the string longer, by moving the saddle away from the neck; if the fretted note is flat then make the string shorter. - With the standard Alembic bridge, you make the string longer by tightening the saddle screw (right to tighten, clockwise), pulling the saddle away from the neck. And vice versa. - Even though I'm pretty comfortable with the concepts, whenever I'm actually making adjustments I have a little cheat sheet nearby that says something like "note sharp, make string longer" - so I don't have to actually think about it and risk confusing myself :-) - You don't need to loosen the string enough to get it off the saddle before making the adjustment - just reduce the tension enough so that you can turn the adjustment screw easily, without forcing. (If you're making the string shorter, you can sometimes get away with just lifting the string right in front of the saddle, but you should probably detune a bit before lengthening the string.) - You will find that there is a small amount of play in the adjustment screw/saddle threads. So look carefully at the saddle and see that it's moving, especially when you decide you've gone too far in one direction and want to reverse it. As you get close, you'll be making adjustments on the order of 1/8 turn or perhaps a little less, and you may have just about that much play in the threads. - As the final touch, try to end up so that the last adjustment you have made on each string is clockwise, at least to take up any slop in the threads so that all saddles are being pulled away from the neck. This is analogous to tuning up to pitch, and will result in a more stable setup. - I'm sure there are a number of ways to approach fretless... personally I move up and down the string to find the optimal position for playing the harmonic (both by ear and by feeling the vibration on my finger), and then press down directly in that same position. However, I may compromise on that position slightly, in an effort to end up with a straight alignment of fingering positions across the strings (hard to explain, curious to know what others do). It's really a lot easier than it might sound, once you've done it a couple of times (and especially with a strobe). And since it does depend on your fingers and playing style, you can pretty quickly get to the point where you'll be able to do a better job than anyone else can do for you. I'm not sure I'd describe the exercise itself as pleasurable, but playing a properly intonated instrument is a real joy, so it's worth it. Hope I didn't get that flat/sharp thing backwards again... -Bob | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 447 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thank you, Bob, Dave, and everybody who's contributed to this thread. And thanks Tony for starting it up. It's info I needed. Mike | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 196 Registered: 1-2004 |
Bob, that's a good synopsis. Your comments make me think of a couple more points. If a string needs to be shortened I always just go ahead and shorten it too much so that when I make my adjustment I am lenghtening. Thoughts on fretless. The issue is really just that it's easy to find the harmonic, but when you 'fret' the note you have to make sure you do it exactly the same way you would when you are playing. Not too hard to do on the B or E string, but on the G or C you are so far from the dot on the side of the neck and there's the parallax issue. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2002 |
That in turn reminds me... (skip this if you have frets). Last time I tried something a little different. I got one string, probably the E or A, where I was really happy with it. Then I put on a capo, very precisely positioning it so that the reference string was "playing" the correct pitch, and that the capo was perpendicular to the strings (so much for the parallax issue). Since it was a bit tedious to position just so, I checked all the other strings and wrote down how much/which way I wanted to adjust them, and did the whole round at once, and repeated. By watching how fast the strobe was drifting, it was really easy to figure out how much adjustment was needed, and only took two or three rounds to nail it. It happens that this cheapo capo I have does a pretty good impression of my fingertips, and it worked out really well. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2260 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Bob! I can't really recall why I started using the 24th fret, but it seems to work well. However I'll give the 12th fret method a try next time I set the intonation. | ||
| ajish4
Junior Username: ajish4 Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2003 |
Great information everyone, thanks! I can't wait to get my new strings! A question on the STROBE TUNER if I may? I don't know anyone I can borrow one from, so I would have to purchase one. I've never even heard of them before. ANY SUGGESTIONS on brand/cost? I did a quick search on E-bay and found a number of different ones there. Many in the $200.00 range. PETERSON VS-II seems to be a popular model. I guess I'm just from the dark ages. I don't have any of the really neat stuff that is out there these days. No rack mounted equipment or effects, just my bass, a cord and my 350 watt amp. Though, I did have an Echoplex once way back when?? I currently use the old standby $20.00 Korg type tuner. It ticks me off quite frequently, but it has been the only game in town. Until, now that is!  Tony | ||
| son_of_magni
Intermediate Member Username: son_of_magni Post Number: 197 Registered: 1-2004 |
The VS-II is a digital model. I've never used them but I have my doubts that they are as good as the analog type. Mine is a Peterson R450 which I really like. Peterson is probably the preferred brand in general, though I think the old Conn's are just as good. As far as being from the dark ages? That's where these things come from. And compared to your Korg, they are much more accurate. | ||
| bob
Senior Member Username: bob Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2002 |
More comments on strobes here. | ||
| oujeebass
Member Username: oujeebass Post Number: 59 Registered: 10-2002 |
Another good tuner to use if you have a way to interface your bass into your computer is AP Tuner. It works very well for me and is quite stable. Hope you enjoy your newly intonated Epic. Its the best of both worlds in my book. I may be partial to them because thats what I got,but you can't beat the punch and the sustain. (Message edited by oujeebass on August 26, 2005) | ||
| mpisanek
Junior Username: mpisanek Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2005 |
I have an 86 spoiler and have a some problems setting the intonation on the low B string. I use a Korg DTR-1 and have a hard time getting the intonation exactly right. The tuner doesn't seem to be sensitive enough or takes an inordinate time to "latch on" to the low B note. Any ideas? Michael. | ||
| jet_powers
Advanced Member Username: jet_powers Post Number: 229 Registered: 2-2003 |
I've noticed the same thing on the B string... some tuners just don't seem to work very well with them. Curious to hear what other have to say about that.... JP | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 2287 Registered: 5-2002 |
Michael; you might want try my method as shown above. The harmonic at the 5th fret and the fretted note at the 24th should be high enough frequencies to register on your Korg. As others have pointed out, this method might not be "exact", but if you can't get the 12th fret method to register, then my method should get you pretty close. | ||
| jet_powers
Advanced Member Username: jet_powers Post Number: 230 Registered: 2-2003 |
Well, uh.... of course. That's how I always got around it- the 12th fret harmonic. JP |
