| Author | Message | ||
| basstard
Advanced Member Username: basstard Post Number: 284 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hey there fellow Alembicians, There probably have been threads on this very topic but I couldn't find one. So there goes. As I've written here once, I recorded an album last year, using 2 Alembic basses: an early Essence 5 (maple-bodied) and an Epic 4 - the latter for only one song (but it was still very useful). Both the studio owner and the sound engineer complimented the sound - they especially praised the evenness of response throughout the fingerboard and string-to-string consistency. They also loved the sound itself. It was one of the best, most renowned studios in Poland. However, last Saturday, during BassDays Warsaw, I came across a sound engineer who said he hated Alembics and only seemed to accept Fender basses as studio tools (he also slacked Music Man and Spector basses which I happen to like too). He mentioned Alembics' (as well as most other hi-end ntb active basses') "dead" midrange and lack of resonse to articulation. As a proof, he demonstrated his old Jazz Bass which was a lovely sounding bass indeed. OK, I agree with one point - the Jazz Bass is probably the most sensitive to articulation of all basses. However, I've noticed Alembics sit in the mix beautifully while the guy clamed otherwise. He said that Alembic basses are only good for slap solos, and that's all. I've also heard many stories about producers and recording engineers demanding P- and J-basses to be used during sessions. I'm not saying these are bad basses - I'd love to have a good old P-bass myself, not only is it and icon, it also has a sound that's hard to substitute in specific situations - but there is much much more to the world of beautiful bass tones than just Fenders... So, the question is: what were your experiences in recording studios? Have you ever heard a producer tell you to put the Alembic back into the case and pull out a Precision or a Jazz? And have you ever met anyone claiming that Alembics suck? I admit - that guy made me rather nervous as he didn't listen to my arguments (Jimmy Johnson, John Entwistle etc plus my own studio experience)... I'd love to hear about your experiences. | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 2283 Registered: 10-2002 |
I've heard that engineers pull the 'must use a fender' card because they're either too lazy or inexperienced to mess around with the EQ enough to get a good sound from anything else. As the artist, you have the right to play your music on the instrument that best captures the idea you have in your head. In my (admittedly)limited recording experience, the engineers have all been very complimentary of the Alembic tone once they've tweaked the desk. Graeme | ||
| fc_spoiler
Senior Member Username: fc_spoiler Post Number: 920 Registered: 5-2006 |
I've been in the studio recently (still am actually, were doing the mixdown now) and the engineers never heard of Alembic. They were extremely surprised when they heard them for the first time and keep complimenting me (one of the best bass sounds they recorded according to the "Chief" engineer, I brought and used both my Spoilers) Engineers who keep demanding Fenders should go firetruck themselves and realize they are lazy firetrucks (imho) In any situation for me it will be either an Alembic or another bass player, Alembics make the band sound better in my humble opinion. Anyone interested in the recordings can send me an e-mail with Alembic in the subject line and I will send the mp3's (Metallica songs: "Sad but true" '88 Spoiler and "Ride the Lightning" '83 Spoiler with heavy distortion) (Message edited by fc_spoiler on June 22, 2009) | ||
| lmiwa
Advanced Member Username: lmiwa Post Number: 202 Registered: 2-2008 |
It totally depends on who is paying who. If it's your band and you are paying the bill, then you decide which bass to use. If you are a "hired gun" and whoever is paying the bill insists on a Fender, then you play the Fender. Many times it is simply a matter of economics. Because they see so many, the engineers should know exactly how to set up for a great sound on a Fender and can do so very quickly. It may (probably will) take them longer to get a good sound from your Alembic, simply because they don't do it very often. If someone values the quality of the Alembic sound, they will pay for the extra set up time. If they don't, then they shouldn't have to pay for it. Just my opinion... Loch | ||
| robertodiazj
New Username: robertodiazj Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2006 |
fc_spoiler: I am 98.9 percent sure that Jason recorded the black album with a Spector Bass and went on tour with the alembics. But I have to confirm, I have an old guitar magazine from September or October 91 were Jason commented on that. That magazine is at my parents house when I have the chance I can make a scan for you. Also "A year and a half in the life of metallica" seems to confirm this, I saw the whole video looking for images of his alembics and the first half doesn´t show alembics, just the second half :-) Also, sorry for the off topic (Message edited by robertodiazj on June 22, 2009) | ||
| fc_spoiler
Senior Member Username: fc_spoiler Post Number: 921 Registered: 5-2006 |
I would love to have that scan ;-) I think he used more basses, there are some huge differences in the sounds (listen to the "Guitar Hero" tracks) "Sandman" and "Wherever I may roam" must be the Spector bass (distinctive sound) "The Unforgiven" sounds a lot like Alembic, but I've been told it's a vintage '57 Precision... Hard to tell... There are Alembics (at least two) in the studio, look closely ;-) In the vid of Nothing else matters you can see a black cone shaped headstock and the Elan 5 can be seen clearly. At the first line of the lyrics ("So close, no matter how far") Jason is playing the Elan, most of the time it's on a stand. In the Year and a Half vid, @ the part where they show the bass recording of Nothing else matters, you can see the Elan 5 clearly on a stand behind Jason with it's original JPJ configuration. Also remarkable, though possible gear owned by the studio and not used for the Metallica recordings: Huge amount of Trace Elliot bass gear... Some day I will talk to Jason and tear the info till the last detail out of him :-) (Sorry for the off topic...)  (Message edited by fc_spoiler on June 22, 2009) | ||
| mike1762
Advanced Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 333 Registered: 1-2008 |
I have had a home studio for some time now. The first SEVERAL times I tried to record with an Alembic, it just wasn't happening. I had all of my presets adjusted for my Jazz or Music Man and the tone with the Alembic was HORRIBLE!!! After spending a LOT of time working with my Alembics, I finally came to the realization that I was fighting the nature of the instrument. While I was trying to make it sound like a Jazz or Music Man, the tone of an Alembic is just fundamentally different (to my ears anyway). I should have just let the tone "be" what it was. But since the tone didn't match the one in my head, it caused me a LOT of frustration. I can only imagine what an engineer might think upon hearing one for the first time... probably a "love them or hate them" situation. If someone else is paying the bill, there is really no time to reacclimate the engineer's ears. I guess my point is that if you (or whoever) have a specific tone in your head, use the instrument that will get you there with the least amount of muss and fuss. That's why most of us own so freaking many guitars. | ||
| basstard
Advanced Member Username: basstard Post Number: 286 Registered: 3-2003 |
I simply hate when someone says something's crap simply because they don't like it... | ||
| jack
Advanced Member Username: jack Post Number: 207 Registered: 11-2005 |
I'm no pro, and what limited studio experience I have is me playing my music, on my dime, my time. To further make the point that I'm talking out of my rear end, I don't think I've recorded on anything but an Alembic (or RT Renaissance) since high school, so I really have no basses (heh) for comparison. Having said all that, I think Alembics are pretty incredible for an amateur hack like me, because I can go direct into anything and it sounds great, like an Alembic. I go right into the board, or audio interface as the case may be, and I have total control over the bass from the bass. And it always sounds great (the tone, that is. The playing is another story). The less stuff between the bass and the tape the better, for me anyway. The engineers I've worked with have all thanked me for making things easier, giving them more time to make sure the drummer's 18 mics are all in the perfect spot, and the guitar player has the right combination of vintage tube, modern solid-state, mic'ed, direct, dry, wet, whatever. Same with live- playing in NYC, where you never know what backline you're gonna find, it's so great to have a bass where I can just set everything flat on the head, turn the eq off, whatever, and the bass is gonna be alright. Gives me more time at the bar. | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 756 Registered: 6-2007 |
I would never drive my street bike on roads designed for dirt bikes. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 8235 Registered: 5-2002 |
I just listened to Flip's new mp3's. Very good recorded sound! | ||
| briant
Advanced Member Username: briant Post Number: 336 Registered: 12-2004 |
I've used my JPJ several times in various recording studios and always get nothing but high praise for how great it sounds. Anyone who insists on using nothing but a P or J bass is lazy and/or stupid. | ||
| jeffbass4
New Username: jeffbass4 Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2003 |
My story goes like this.. My first recording experience was with my 4001 Rick. The engineer hated it and said it was too hard to get a good sound out of them. (I didn't get into the Geddy Lee, Chris Squire, etc.. argument with him) I knew I needed a good recording bass and that's where the Alembic comes in. I have used this on countless sessions since and it always sounds amazing and needs very little if any EQ'ing. A good tube preamp into the board and the bass controls set flat and wahlah! Sheer Excelence!! I do have an old Jazz and an old Precision that have been used when requested for specific projects because they do have "their sound" which is cool, but the Alembic sounds good on everything. Our producer Sylvia Massy loves the Alembic and is amazed by the tone and how well it records. Oh yea, and if I know I have to play on someone else's amp at a gig I always take the Distillate. It makes any amp sound better! | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 2284 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just listened to Flip's MP3s. What an excellent Bass sound and so obvious that it's not a fender ;-) The whole band sound very tight too. Well worth a listen if you haven't mailed Flip already. Graeme | ||
| jack
Advanced Member Username: jack Post Number: 208 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ha! Rockin' my office at 8 am on a Tuesday. Awesome. Dig this from Flip: Spoiler tuned ADGC (one step below the low strings of a 5-er). Do you use a 5-str set (ie a 130 or whatever B) and tune it down? How does that play, not too floppy? I'm a Metallica fan from a young age, dug the material, and good playing, you guys nail it. Good work on the vocal harmonies on SBT as well. If you ever want a couple laughs, check out these guys: beatallica.org (to hear the tunes search Beatallica at Youtube) Basically a mash-up of The Beatles and Metallica, a laugh riot. "The Thing That Should Not Let It Be" and "Blackened in the USSR"- too funny. And the singer is a dead ringer for Hetfield, in an overstated, parody sort of way. Ok, sorry to derail the thread (man I have a habit of that. Stream of consciousness over here). | ||
| jos
Junior Username: jos Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2009 |
HI Guys! I have experienced many times when engineers do not want to see an Alembic in the studio. This does not mean that the bass don’t work. In my experience its quite much a psychological thing. Hard core Rockers want to see a beaten up Fender bass. They do listen with their eyes. I have many stories about the subject but here is one; There was a guitar player who was really old school he insisted passive basses for this session no active bullshit basses because he hates them. The guy was behind the mixing desk and asked me to play my Jazz Bass. He could then make the bass sound the way he did prefer it to sound. After a few minutes of playing the Jazz Bass he asked me to stop playing and leave it there, now the sound was really good, it was amazing…. It was just what he was looking for! What did you do he asked? Well, I did put the active electronic on……… I did answer! I do not want to embarrass anyone but I really did enjoy this……. Having active electronics does not mean that you have to boost the high end to the max every time you play. I guess this is what most people think, who hate active electronic in a bass. To me there is a place for everything that is good….. Alembic basses happen to be one of the few high-end basses or any basses where you really have equally all the frequencies available not only high and low end. The articulation is great on Alembics too the only problem is that if you make a mistake everybody can hear it; with Fenders you might get a way with it. But yes Jarek with Alembics you can also go wrong the whole way I have experienced that too. You just have to watch out and know your equipment. But in general Alembics are the basses of all basses that cuts through the best everywhere from studios to live performances, if that is what you are looking for. Fender basses are good too… nice sound like is Fodera, Ken Smith and many more basses out there. You also have to remember that for many engineers the bass guitar is not the most important thing in a session. They usually spend one minute for the bass sound at most, so you better be prepared and make it right the first time because you will not get a second chance. In this way Fender is a good choice because everyone knows how it sounds. But if you know your Alembic it kills everything!! OK you know what I mean…….. If you have the time listen to the track New Song on my myspace page www.myspace.com/janolofstrandberg its maybe not that special today, it was recorded more than 10 years ago but I think there is enough midrange in the bass sound. It was recorded with an Alembic Signature Bass. | ||
| basstard
Advanced Member Username: basstard Post Number: 287 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jan-Olof! I'm so happy you replied in my thread :-) You're a true virtuoso and it's a great honour for me that you took your time to share your experiences in this thread. Coming back to my conversation with that Alembic-hating engineer guy, he was trying to explain everything to me using frequencies, wave curves and so on and so forth - I understood nothing of that. He also said that Music Man basses sound dead and are useless most of the time (I regret not asking him what he thought about Tony Levin or Gail Ann Dorsey...) and generally seemed to try to prove his point with all means available. Funny thing - he loves SWR amps which I happen to hate... ;-) Is there a point to engage into discussion with such people at all? | ||
| serialnumber12
Senior Member Username: serialnumber12 Post Number: 475 Registered: 12-2004 |
most producers only wanna hear 'BASS' not clarity/tone ....................i even had a band leader bring (his) fender Bass & told me to "PLAY ONLY THIS BASS TONIGHT!!!!"    ..............Sonofabich!! (Message edited by serialnumber12 on June 23, 2009) | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 760 Registered: 6-2007 |
Insurance companies running Hospitals... is like Producers, controlling Music... The people want the best care, and the best sounds possible! It time for Doctors and Musicians to fight the power! | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 761 Registered: 6-2007 |
Any system that champions mediocre will eventually parish. By joining this club, and other music groups keep us grounded in producing a culture that is based on quality. | ||
| jos
Junior Username: jos Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2009 |
Most of the time it’s a question of how you use your equipment. I used to play Music Man basses besides of my Fenders in the late -70`s and early -80`s. Music Man is a great bass specially the old ones. This because the pickups and wood was better then (old Rock Maple on necks) but the new ones are OK too not as solid but OK. I did use flatwounds on some of my Music Man basses to get the midrange strong. Music Man and SWR have the same kind of V shape philosophy for the basic sound. I like them both but do not use either of them today and am not planning to use them either. Louis Johnson got a great Music Man sound on Michael Jackson’s “Off The Wall” album, really strong and solid. What a real engineer really should do is serve you and make the best of what you happen to plug in. A great producer should be getting the best out of the band and musicians in the studio not changing their style or sound too much but help them to sound good and make them relax. But we have to be realistic too the producer produces and we are listening and trying to do our very best. | ||
| juggernaught
Advanced Member Username: juggernaught Post Number: 294 Registered: 3-2007 |
As an interesting side note, this type of situation is what made Victor Wooten switch from Alembic to Fodera: http://www.fodera.com/artists/wooten/book/bassexc.htm Neither good nor bad IMO, but an interesting piece of history. | ||
| jakebass
Member Username: jakebass Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2007 |
In my mind a good producer will want what the player has to offer, however I too have taken both Jazz bass and Alembic on sessions only to find that producers want that 'old Fender sound' I don't think it really stands but I guess they want the security of it sounding like they expect. | ||
| juggernaught
Advanced Member Username: juggernaught Post Number: 295 Registered: 3-2007 |
The worst is when the sound guy at the gig comes up to your amp and starts playing with the parametric EQ because the bass isn't "boomy" enough. What, like I have to change my entire technique so that the bass sounds like what you want? I swear half those guys are deaf as a post. | ||
| jeffbass4
New Username: jeffbass4 Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2003 |
In one session I was hired for, the producer wanted a P-bass with flat wounds. Ok so I did that. Then he asked if he could change the tones on the amp which was fine with me because I know where they are and can change them back when I leave. It was an old vintage type sound as you can guess. Weeks later he called me back to re-record my parts because his "sound" didn't work so well. What ended up on the record was the Alembic and the sound I have set up on my SVT. SWEEET :-) P.S. Random sound guys DO NOT get to change my amp settings! | ||
| llobsterbass
Member Username: llobsterbass Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2004 |
One of the worst of these stories is, of course, a Phil Lesh story. It's in Blair Jackson's Grateful Dead gear book (a must read for any music gearhead). The producer of "Terrapin Station" -- Gary Lyon? -- describes the Alembic Phil was using on those album sessions (either Big Brown or Mission Control) as sounding like a piece of clothesline nailed to a board. Makes fun of Phil for saying "it's low impedance," then asks if he has a Fender. (Message edited by llobsterbass on June 23, 2009) | ||
| sonicus
Intermediate Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have been on both sides of this fence and could write volumes of pages on this topic. If an engineer can't deal with the signal from an active Bass this is usually a sign of lack of experience and/or knowledge or simply lack of the equipment to derive a useable signal.The later being true for a "direct in" . Some times you just need to experiment with combinations with the right microphone and "direct In" . We as "GOOD" Bass players also need to focus on CLEAN studio technique. Most engineers and or producers will be picky when if comes to FRET NOISE and RATTLE from the start. I do not have to tell anyone here about how sensitive our ALEMBICS are, they pick up everything we give them. Then there are of course those producers that have the dictator attitude _____and you can't tell them anything.The bottom line is that with time, a positive artist friendly attitude, thorough knowledge and the right equipment almost anything is possible, and lets not forget talent. | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 765 Registered: 6-2007 |
Wolf, that was exactly what I was thinking... A good engineer should be-able to take what he has to work with, and make music with everybody on board the ship. S/he must know a variety of sounds, and also been around enough to bring the best from the breed of the basses out there.(if you will...) and if they are not aware of Alembics, WTF had they been doing for the past 30+ years!!! A good engineer should have the people and social skills required to motivate everyone (including Her/Himself) to a win-win agreement on the sound period. Ray Charles comes to mind... He owned his Masters, smart man with B_lls. The days are gone for us depending on these yo-yo's. We have a great many resources to create what is right for ourselves, and with the Internet too -- what more can we ask besides a contract that fits your terms and conditions. | ||
| basstard
Advanced Member Username: basstard Post Number: 288 Registered: 3-2003 |
I looked up that Alembic-hating guy - he's got really good credits... http://www.myspace.com/blazejdomanski I've found numerous interviews with him, he seems to be highly respected... | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3944 Registered: 7-2004 |
The producer of "Terrapin Station" ? Keith Olsen Bill, tgo | ||
| adriaan
Senior Member Username: adriaan Post Number: 2252 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mr Domanski also posted a picture entitled My Fender Heaven. So he appears to play bass himself, and seems to like Fenders a lot. | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 8248 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think the Terrapin bit is from page 175. As for Phil Lesh, "he had this really weird bass that I think was one of the first Alembics," Olsen said. "It basically sounded like somebody took a washboard with a broom handle and put one piece of rope on it. But he was really into it: 'It's low impedance'. I said, 'it sounds like crap - got a Fender?' He didn't like that." | ||
| llobsterbass
Member Username: llobsterbass Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2004 |
thanks for the correction lbpesq. you're right. Gary (Lyon?) produced Go to Heaven (shudder) | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3946 Registered: 7-2004 |
At least they were both better than Shakedown Street. How such an amazing musician as Lowell George could be such an abysmal producer I will never understand. Bill, tgo | ||
| basstard
Advanced Member Username: basstard Post Number: 289 Registered: 3-2003 |
Adriaan - yes, he is a very good bassist (he plays in a prog-rock band), I've heard him play. He said he's had experience with many different instruments during his years of studio work... I don't know what to make of it, what he said kind of shook me, I feel quite uneasy now... You know, if such words came from the mouth of a random guy, of a crappy engineer with little experience, I wound't care. But if a very respected engineer/producer with years of experience (which is kind of weird considering how young he looks - but facts are facts) says Alembics (and most modern active basses, especially neck-thru) are worthless in studio... I admit it's haunting me now. | ||
| jos
Junior Username: jos Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2009 |
I think this starts to be more a question of taste and how to make things happen in the studio. I know many producers who like to make the bass sound really boomy and “unclear” they do not want to hear a presence of the bass guitar too much…….. I still like some of their production. I think its fine with people with different taste. The main thing is still that many musicians/producers are not aware of Alembic and all the possibilities you have with the instrument. If you do not understand something its always best to dislike it…….. That was most people do. I think a great example of Alembics many sound possibilities are to listen to Stanley Clarke and to Jimmy Johnson both are great but sounds totally different. The truth is that Jimmy Johnson has one of the greatest bass sounds in the world and sounds so good on James Taylor records. What is wrong with that sound? You have also to remember that many times someone changes the Alembic to some other bass it maybe an endorsement deal. But there is room for everyone and some real great classic bass sounds are P-Bass with Ampeg - it just works Stanley with his Alembic Jaco with his Jazz bass Anthony Jackson with his Fodera (also great with the Jazz bass in the -70`s) And many many more……… Neck-thru basses are great in the studio if you need to hold down a note for two bars or more neck-thru are the best. If you want to get rid of some high end, just turn off the high end from the mixer board if you do not like to listen to a big massive low-end sound just turn off the bass from the mixing board. If you think the bass sustains too much then put flatwound strings and a rubber under your strings and the bass will not sustain (this you can control with your hands as well) | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 607 Registered: 1-2005 |
Many of us here are bass players, so of course we want to sound A) as good as possible, and B) the way we want to. But from the point of view of the general public, as well as record companies and producers, bass is probably pretty low down on the list. In the case of Keith Olsen, he probably already has an idea of what kind of bass sound works for him, and that's what he expects - no room for experimentation, why reinvent the wheel when we know a P-Bass will work, etc. I wonder if he listened to any live Dead tapes during the preparation for the album? Bass sounds pretty damn good to me. | ||
| olieoliver
Senior Member Username: olieoliver Post Number: 2549 Registered: 2-2006 |
I've had my Alembics in the studio a few times and usually get the same reaction, a roll of the eyes and "will you play our bass?". To which I reply, give me 1 take and if you don't like what you hear I'll switch. Hadn't had to switch yet. OO | ||
| jimmyj
Member Username: jimmyj Post Number: 83 Registered: 8-2008 |
Hey friends, I've been out of touch but I'll jump in here too. Thanks to Jan-Olaf for the nod. It's true, our instruments are not for everybody or maybe every situation but most great engineers will at least give it a listen! Of course, if they already know everything then why try anything new? Saying that all active basses are bad is like saying you will only record violins made in Italy... My experience has been that if an engineer will give it a listen they generally like what they hear. Comments like "I'm not doing ANYTHING to your bass, no compressor, no EQ, nothing!" Or as Holdsworth tells me "Unlike everybody else's bass, on yours if I twist the knob at 6k - there is SIGNAL up there!" But that's just it, the sound of an Alembic is very wide-band compared to say a Fender which is quite narrow. If the music has room for it, then the Alembic (in my opinion) is the greatest. But many engineers simply don't want to give the bass that much space. And you might argue that if a bass tops out at 900hz then you can turn it up louder in the track without effecting the mix... Open-mindedness applies in both directions. Saying Alembics are the only basses of value is the same as saying all active electronics are bad. An Artist or producer hiring us has the ultimate say about what they want in their track. When hired as a sideman we are not the Artist and need to be open to trying new things just as we expect them to be. Most people who call me know what they're getting but if the engineer wants to mic a B-15 I'll plug into it and try to give him what he wants (even if he is just trying to make it sound like a Fender). If I get a call for say "library music from the 1960's and 70's" I'll explain that I only own Alembics so if they want a particular vintage bass sound I would be happy to play whatever bass THEY provide. I've done that and it can be fun. I do a pretty lame McCartney imitation. Ha! There are ways to make an Alembic sound bad. I think when active onboard electronics were first introduced some of the early users may have gotten a little carried away with the tone controls and shocked and confused some audio engineers. "Where is all that clicking coming from?" I think this is why some engineers will have an immediate allergic reaction when the SEE the bass come out of the case. Just listen to it, that's all I ask. If you don't like it we'll try something else... Best to all, Jimmy J | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3952 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jimmy: When you do your McCartney imitation, do you play left-handed? lol Bill, tgo | ||
| jacko
Senior Member Username: jacko Post Number: 2302 Registered: 10-2002 |
Now that's something I'd pay money to see;-) How's about getting JT to slip a beatles medley into the set next Tuesday? Graeme | ||
| blazej_domanski
New Username: blazej_domanski Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2009 |
Hello! Ok - I am this bad guy who “hates” Alembic and Alembic inspired “modern” neck thru body sandwich constructions with active low impedance pickups. After long telephone talk with basstard (this time very friendly because we believe that this discussion can learn us something and open our ears and mind) and reading all of the post I decided to write here my point of view. Being big fun of them in the beginning of my career as an engineer after more than twelve years of working as an engineer and producer and recording a lot of material from film scoring to heavy metal (acoustic jazz fusion and indie rock and pop also) I must sadly say that those basses are not useful for more than 80% of studio work. I am not type of lazy engineer. I used to reserve 9 to 12 track for bass guitar I tend to mix signal from different preamps miking a lot of cabinets and even tweeters. Sometimes if music call for it I even record stereo ambient pair for bass guitar. For typical session I usually hire more than ten different amps and speakers to choose from. If somebody comes to me with Alembic and said thats it is his voice I would spend same times to find combinations of recording technicques and setup to make this guitar audible in mix but 90% times it will end up with destroying or at least heavy compromise sound of other instruments... I am not endorser of anything. I play at least 20 years old Fenders and fender inspired instruments (mostly from 70ties) because wood on those old instruments are simply better and after being played for many years it has changed its molecular structure and became more vibrant. During many years of research I never find a new instrument with tone as resonant, vibrant, sparkle and musically sounding as an old one made from the same or similar materials. Alembic Basses are very beautiful and extremely well build thats a true. As opposite Fender mid seventies and sixties basses with I consider the ultimate tone basses were build very poor quality. They need to be refretted, sometimes You have to straighten the neck, You have to remove lacquier and papers stamps from the neck and neck pocket. Usually You also change pickups because old ones became to be very microphonic and thin sounding and also change the bridge to baddass II. Thats True. But those beautifully constructed Alembic Basses have only one problem - The Idea is bad. Alembics are constructed to be extremely wide sounding basses. It is Great idea if You play alone but it is also the worst idea if You play with the band. Many says thats Alembic is the ultimate bass for bedroom players. A lot of very experienced players sad to me that during late seventies and early 80ties they buying Alembic basses because those instruments sounded extremely wide in the shop and after some time they stop playing them and came back to fenders because fellow bandmatess and engineers said that the rhythm section lacked punch and feel. Bass is extremely hard to mix. Every room has a different frequency response in the bass frequencies. Every speaker system also. Your mix have to be car proof and disco smile boom box proof also. It is almost impossible to mix well wide sounding instruments because every instrument need his own sonic space. Please consider in mind that classical acoustical instruments are build to be part of the team like all Orchestra instruments (they do not have extremely wide frequency range) and to be alone instruments like organs. Psycho acustics proofs as that to be well heard on all systems bass guitar need to have a lot of energy in lo mids - about 120Hz - 250 Hz and in Hi mids area 1250 Hz to 4000Hz (note clarity and definition. Our ears has ability to recreate lows when hearing to low mids (think about phone - which frequency starts at 300Hz and You recognize low male voice without a problem). Typical passive Fender Jazz has a peeks in those critical frequencies which makes this instrument easy to mix loud without stepping on anybody's heels. Thats why fenders cut through even densest mixes. Neck thru design tends to accent first fundamental frequency for example 44Hz for low E tone, bolt ons accents the harmonics (88Hz and 176 Hz for low E). In the typical mix bass drum energy is in the 40Hz to 70Hz area - so neck thru bass guitar fights with kick in the most important frequency area for kick and lacks punch and its percussiveness in lo mids area. Of course You can compensate for it playing with heavy attack. Thats why I think that Alembic neck thru are great for slapping. But to be honest I must say that slapping is last think needed for more that 90% percent of music recorded those years... Active electronics that a bad think. The signal chain is as weak as it weakest element. You have great ears, great hands, great instrument, great pickups, and weak active buffer and great recording pre. Why ruin Your tone and dynamics with buffer amplifier made from cheap op amplifiers or transistors with +-9 volts of power when You connected Your instruments to a extremely high quality studio gear like Millennia Media Neve or Avalon made of military spec tubes resistors and capacitors with power of at least 275 Volt for tubes (with made extremely high headroom) with a great cable. It was good 30 years ago when stage equipment and cables were poor quality but things changed especially in studio... Passive electronics give You more articulation - If You do not believe me connect your instruments to auto wah or distortion pedal and after this connect a passive instrument. It is very hard to drive auto wah with active electronics because of it evenness and lack of articulation. Play line like “come on come over” with passive every dead note is really dead with rather percussive character and lack of high and low end and not as reach in harmonic structure like “normal” played note. With active electronics the dead note sound almost the same like normal but it is only quieter. Typical Fender like single coil have a lot more harmonic distortion and a lot of higher resonant peak than low impedance pickup but it is not a disadvantage - because of this high impedance pickups cut through the mix a lot of better then low impedance. It is also psychoacoustics. In my opinion Alembic family basses are great tools slappers or for soloist in small assembles who can compromise sound of the other instruments because of his ego and sound (nothing bad with this) but played with fingers they are completely useless in the dense rock or pop mix - they either disappear or made mix dull with lack of punch. Thats my point of view (and also point of view of many session and famous bass players I have pleasure and honor to work with. Of course tone is in our hands and with great player and a lot of work of engineer You can use Your Alembic in any musical situation but typical “Fender like” bass do the job with less effort and much better results. If You do not have great dynamics and articulation with passive fender like everybody will notice it with active Alembic You can hide it. Also with fender like bass (or stratocaster guitar) You sound like You (JPJ, Jaco, Marcus Miller, Anthony Jackson Geddy Lee and many more all sound different because passive fender like instruments are very sensitive to articulation. With Alembic it is more a sound of Alembic than the player itself. Even very different players sound similar on those basses. Best Regards for All of You Blazej | ||
| blazej_domanski
New Username: blazej_domanski Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2009 |
I am very interested in Yours opinion in this topic especially in Your experience with using Alembic basses in dense mixes. | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 2378 Registered: 3-2004 |
Wow, Blazej, couldn't disagree with your characterization of Alembic more. My Alembics are far more responsive to my playing if I pluck near the bridge or over the end of the board as compared to the tonal variations I get from passively loaded basses. I play 95% fingerstyle rock. Bartolini guts are very good for me, and I have often found EMG stuff to be a little bit sterile, I think EMG was very popular when active stuff was hitting the streets and maybe did an awful lot to create the prejudices people have with active systems. I don't dislike the passive tone, I just don't think you can knock Alembic. I played for years with a five piece dual guitar group and never had a problem being heard through the mix. I play with one guitarist now and cutting through isn't an issue, though I get great tone when I chord to thicken the sound on occasion while he solos. Similar lines on a passive bass often sound muddied. Music isn't objective, so if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. Strings are a huge part of the tone as well. Alembics seem to me to be more variable in tone character based upon the strings you use. I have tried some relatively thin round or compressed strings that sound completely anemic on the top strings with awful balance. On the other hand, a string like the Chromes is very versatile and records wonderfully for a lot of styles. When you have so much sonic range, though, everyone will know it if you suck. Passive basses are much more forgiving of mediocre chops, and maybe this factors into the whole discussion as well. -bob | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 3956 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm not an engineer and I have only a passing understanding of the science of sound, but I have attended hundreds of live music performances as well as spent thousands of hours playing in bands over the past 40+ years. I do have a clear perception of what I hear. In my experience the claim that passive instruments possess more clarity and punch than Alembics is ludicrous (and I don't mean the rapper). To my ears the whole definition of the Alembic sound is based on the foundation of clarity and presence. My favorite bass players (both to listen to and to play with) are the ones whose notes are clear and distinct, as opposed to those who create a low rumble that I "feel" more than "hear". And guess what? The ones I like the best often play active basses, especially Alembics. Just my $.02 Bill, tgo (Message edited by lbpesq on June 26, 2009) | ||
| keith_h
Senior Member Username: keith_h Post Number: 1315 Registered: 2-2005 |
Blazej, I have to disagree with your statement about active basses hiding poor technique. I have found just the opposite. With active basses and Alembic in particular you have have to excellent technique as the expanded frequency response of the active electronics shows up all of your playing problems. With passive basses the frequency response is much less so it can hide poor technique. I have recorded off and on since the 70's and went active with my Jazz Basses in the late 70's. Not only did the active tone controls open up my sound but it forced me to improve my technique due to the extended range. I can also say during this time I have never had an engineer request that I use a passive bass. Likewise since I have moved to Alembic have I have never been requested to use something different. As a matter of fact I have usually been told that the engineer likes the extended range as all of the tones are there for them to mix with later on. My typical recording setup is a direct box from the bass and a post DI from my Eden Navigator. Keep in mind also that are many recordings out there that used Alembic basses and the bass is not lost in the mix. I'm thinking the Dixie Dregs, Stanley Clarke, The Doobie Bros., etc. By the way my last band was a three guitar front plus keyboards Southern rock band and I have never had issues cutting through the mix with any of my basses. My Alembics in particular. Many of those Fender players you mention are using active versions of the bass. I think you summed it up when you said there is a natural bump in the mid-bass with Fender's and that this makes it easier to find it's place in the mix. I believe this has been stated by others in this thread as the main reason people request you use a Fender (it can't be the dreaded dead spot at the 4th string, 5th fret :-) ). Could part of the problem you perceive be an excessive amount of mid range scooping by a slapper. I have run into this when the person is not familiar how their instrument reacts in a group. The end result is a lot of muddy boom and a very weak high end that gets lost. I jut chalk this problem up to inexperience and try to help the person understand how to better use their equipment. I'd like to close with the fact I do like my Jazz Bass quite a bit. When I bought my long scale Alembics it was very important to me that the necks be very close to the JB neck dimensions and feel. Personally I never have like the feel nor sound of the Precision. Does this invalidate other people liking it? No, it is just a matter of personal taste. Keith | ||
| blazej_domanski
New Username: blazej_domanski Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2009 |
IBPSQ Please listen to the Led Zeppellin concert and records... You can clearly hear every note played on Jazz Bass period even if its tone is rather dark played fingerstyle and when JPJ switched to alembic bass guitar disappear... also compare Marcus and Stanley tone for clarity and presence. IMO Alembics have the clarity and presence when played alone or in small ensemble but it tend to disappear in dense mixes fenders sound thin like a shit when You listen to them solo but begin shine when You play with a band. Blazej | ||
| hendixclarke
Senior Member Username: hendixclarke Post Number: 794 Registered: 6-2007 |
Blazej_domanski, If only Tina Turner could say it best... I'd say: "Welcome to the Thunder Dome!" let me just say I appreciate your comments for it was extremely laughable. I almost feel out of my chair laughing when you said: "But those beautifully constructed Alembic Basses have only one problem - The Idea is bad." That was hilarious to read!!!!! HA haaa haa haa haa haaha aha h ha aah ah ehh Man, you kill me!!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! Get him off Stage...! Somebody call the Apollo Theater's "Sand-man" to get this guy off the stage... please, because I can't stop laughing LOL!!!!! Haaa haaa eh! That's bad, I don't like to laugh at people... I like to laugh with people... Please for give me. | ||
| dannobasso
Senior Member Username: dannobasso Post Number: 1050 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have used Alembics on every gig and recording since 1983. I was never directed to another instrument by an engineer. I have had some who used their usual method and had to adjust because the result was not what they were used to but I still used my basses. I've gone direct, amps, combos of tube di's, amps and direct into tape, protools, protools mixed through vintage tube boards and whatever was the fashion of the day or preference of the engineer. Maybe I'll come up against a situation were I'm not allowed to use my instrument, but most have been very happy with the sound without doing anything to it beyond compression. In the end it doesn't really matter what we think if you are getting paid to put your vision and stamp on a product. May you continue in your profession and reap the rewards of your craft. | ||
| blazej_domanski
New Username: blazej_domanski Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2009 |
Keith H, Passive pickups connected to the high quality tube high impedance preamplifier give You much more headroom and dynamic response and punch then buffer amplifier or active electronic, also passive instruments arent only alder palisander combination with flats rubber mute and tone control down You can go pretty agressive with maple and hard ash combination ala Marcus and Anthony Jackson. |
