| Author | Message | ||
| connor
Junior Username: connor Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2009 |
I was wondering if anyone has any experience with an F-1X/SF-2 rig and getting the classic Phil Lesh tone from the 70's. I know he used an F-2B, but I'm now trying to avoid making a new purchase (money's suddenly an issue :P) Any help would be appreciated greatly! Connor | ||
| crgaston
Senior Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 597 Registered: 11-2005 |
Something I've been playing with here lately on my F1-X is 0-10-2 or 0-10-0 for the mass, mid and treble knobs. It's producing a thick, defined tone with plenty of bottom, and with my neck filter rolled down a good bit and a pick, quite Philish indeed. Neck p/u soloed or just a hint of bridge. No superfilter required. But everyone is diferent. Keep playing with things and you'll find out what works. One thing you must grasp is that the eq controls of the Alembic preamps are not intuitive. At all. Well, for small changes maybe. But who would think 0-10-0 would sound the way it does? Not me. Lots of stuff in the Must Read section, including... http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/26422.html?1144370485 | ||
| crgaston
Senior Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 598 Registered: 11-2005 |
double tap whoops. (Message edited by crgaston on June 30, 2010) | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2003 |
I've always been interested in the early 70s Phil Tone myself. The definitive Phil sound for me was the April 71 Fillmore East shows. I'm using a '96 Guild Starfire reissue with Hammon Dark Stars, running through a Mesa Boogie Carbine 6 with a Mesa 4x10 cabinet. I have an Alembic SF-2 in the effects loop and I can get pretty close. I use low pass in the first filter and high pass in the second filter. I'm still experimenting and the settings change with the room I'm playing. What I'm REALLY interested is collecting data on Phil's Alembic modified Gibson EB-3 (30.5" or 34" scale?). Looking at photos it looks like it has Guild Pickups, but I can't tell of they're the Hagstoms or Guild versions. It also looks like this bass has an Alembic bridge and tail piece. It runs a 5 pin cable so the electronics are modded by Alembic, and I would like to know what the electronics are in the bass exactly. Plus Phil was playing this bass through a Fender Dual Showman, so that will affect the sound. I want to do a ground up recreation of this bass including the nice paint on the bass. I understand that the bass was painted by Bob Thomas who also did the painting on the cover of Live Dead album. Maybe someday!  | ||
| crgaston
Senior Member Username: crgaston Post Number: 599 Registered: 11-2005 |
One thing about "Phil's tone" from the earlier years that I've noticed is that it often changes drastically between songs at a show, or even between different parts of a song. He's obviously switching between pickup balance, filter settings and where he plucks the string frequently. So when someone is asking about recreating it, it's nearly impossible to give good advice unless you know exactly which sound the questioner is trying to re-create. That said, he's definitely my biggest single influence outside of the people I play with. I've got a Modulus, a Starfire with Dark Stars, and an Alembic and play through either an F1X or F2B and sometimes a Superfilter so, yeah... I'm a Phil nut  Great pics and a worthy goal, there, Donald! | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 735 Registered: 10-2006 |
Donald, it actually started life as an EB-0 (short scale), & was modded with (among other things) Hagstrom p/ups. If you're really interested in details on Phil's (or any of their) rigs, I highly recommend Blair Jackson's Grateful Dead Gear. Based on what your rig and the fact that you're "pretty close", may I suggest that what you need to nail it could well be 15" and/or 18" speakers? And those are the 2 best shots I've seen of that bass - thanks (& Mr. Thomas also designed the Alembic logo, IIRC). Peter | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 789 Registered: 1-2005 |
Wow - I usually think of Phil as a pick player, but he's playing with his fingers in those pictures... | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 672 Registered: 5-2002 |
As far as the speakers go, Phil was using Sunn 2x15 cabs with JBLs. You can find them out there every now and then. They were deeper and better constructed than the Showman cabinets. The picture on the right was something I found on a friend's refrigerator. It was an old 11x14 that his room mate had bought at a show decades ago and by the time I saw it, it was in pretty bad shape, with crinkles and maple syrup adorning it. I scanned it and spent a long time touching it up and it came out pretty good! I also spent a lot of time trying to find S.A. Diesel. When Blair was doing his book, he asked me if I had any information on this bass and I told him what I knew and sent him a scan of this pic. We decided that if Mr. (or probably monsieur) Diesel ever surfaces, he could be rewarded with a copy of the book. I am guessing that this picture was taken at the Chateau show in 1971 when they went over to play a festival in France that didn't happen. The ensuing party was apparently awesome! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhYpAjHdMEE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bub7wL6LtYk Edwin | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1066 Registered: 6-2002 |
Cool videos...err..films : ) thanks! | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2003 |
Great info folks, thanks. Edwin, great job on the Phil pic. I'm really interested in photos of the band from the 70-71 period. I found a used copy of Grateful Dead Gear on ABE Books for $12. Can't wait to see that. At some point I'm going to add a 15" to my setup as soon as I start playing rooms that warrant a second cabinet! ! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1105 Registered: 5-2009 |
I too have put much study into the various chronological phases of Mr. Lesh's tone I started back in the 1970's with a variety of different gear combinations and instruments. I have had a few modified Guild Starfires( there are pictures on this site) that reflect my endeavours . In my opinion the timbral aspects of the sound that he had during the Alembic/ EB-3 phase were by far the most visceral to my experience_ I really like that aspect " totally tear ass sound " LOL_______(does that sound real enough ?). I am also interested in a project that will result in customising an EB-3 in a similar way .At this time I am collecting the parts and am in a design phase , The Bass that will be used as the experimental specimen however is of the long scale variety. Cool link Edwin . Sonic Regards | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thats sounds great Edwin, would you post pics of the build? Where are you getting parts? I noticed Warmouth sells EB0 bodies. I thought of buying an Epiphone EB0 reissue and starting from there. Everything I've read about the Epis are that the construction is very good. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1106 Registered: 5-2009 |
Edwin ? lol _ | ||
| pace
Senior Member Username: pace Post Number: 575 Registered: 4-2004 |
Back in '92 I picked up a '67 EB-0 for $150 at a local pawnshop which became my main bass for about a decade. The Cherry finish had been stripped, and the original ceramic soapbar had been swapped out for a Guild humbucker..... I can't help but wonder the who/what/when/where/whys about this bass, and if in fact the previous owner was trying to get close to Phil's spec (but without the plethora of information we have today). Around the same time I picked up a near mint Kustom 200 w/ matching 2-15 cab..... I'd yet to hear the skull & roses album, but I felt that I was pretty close at that time to nailing the '69-'70 sounds~ especially the rolled-off milky content on American Beauty.... This may sound crazy, but I'd really like to find an old Peavey T-40 to throw some Dark-Stars in..... There are some super rare ones out there w/ mahogany bodies, and if I could swap the neck w/ a later era Foundation fretless neck, i'd have the ideal beater-bass!... | ||
| bassman10096
Senior Member Username: bassman10096 Post Number: 1242 Registered: 7-2003 |
I refurb'd and refinned an '68 EBO, added a pair of Dark Stars and wound up with a fun bass that could do some of what Phil's EBO could do.  Fun bass, but it felt a little lightweight for my taste. I could never shake the feeling that more mass would have improved the sound. Ultimately, I sold this one to finance my Brown Bass. But I never really abandoned the project - I found a distressed Guild M-85, stripped and refinned it, replaced the humbuckers with Dark Stars, and found a machinist who built an Alembic-inspired (the specs are actually quite different from the actual Alembic bridges) brass bridge with sustain block and got much closer to Phil's sound. This one's a keeper and a lot of fun to play out with from time to time. Keep the dream alive, Pasewark!  | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1110 Registered: 5-2009 |
Bassman10096 , Both of your projects look like you really put your heart into it Very nice. I am under the impression that your electronics remained passive? | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1112 Registered: 5-2009 |
Back in the "Day" Darlington Emitter Follower circuits were wired directly to the Guild/Hagstrom pickups. I believe a Darlington connected monolithic circuit such as an RCA CA3018 was effectively used . Please correct me if I am wrong. An updated circuit unit utilising FET technology can be adapted in the form of an ALEMBIC BLASTER. My project EB-3 experiments will most likely lean to this direction with ALEMBIC BLASTERS. | ||
| spose
Advanced Member Username: spose Post Number: 310 Registered: 5-2002 |
FLATS!!!!!!!! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1121 Registered: 5-2009 |
Pyramid Gold Flat Wound Strings to be concise ; No .640 Short scale or No.640/1 Long scale | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2003 |
I'm using Thomastik Flats on the Guild right now. I'll try the pyramids next time I need new strings. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1122 Registered: 5-2009 |
I have the Pyramid Gold flats on my remaining Alembic modified Guild Starfire and my Alembic Series II . | ||
| rusty_the_scoob
Junior Username: rusty_the_scoob Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2008 |
I'm winning the EB3 race! Neener-neener! :D http://www.flickr.com/photos/danfcrea/sets/72157616140553831/ My dad is refinishing a 1969 EB0 and modifiying it to Phil's specs as we speak. It was a basket-case I bought off Ebay with the finish and all hardware stripped, so I'm not modding a real collectible. If anyone knows how to reach Bob Thomas (if he's alive), I'd love to ask him a few questions about his paint job. (Edwin's awesome pic has been very helpful! But we aren't sure if it's airbrushed, stenciled, hand-painted, or what...) I'm very nearly positive that Phil's bass started out as an EB3 not an EB0 - they were both short scale in the 60's, identical in every way except that the EB3 had the bridge pickup, two extra knobs, a 5-ply pickguard instead of 3-ply, and generally an inlaid Gibson logo instead of a decal. I believe that Phil & crew bought the EB3 mostly to stick the Starfire's Hagstrom pickups into while they fit all the prototype Alembic electronics into the Starfire's bigger body. Incidentally, these basses fit perfectly into stock SG cases! They're an inch too long for most electric guitar cases though. Phil did play with his fingers for a year or two around this time. You can see it in the Festival Express video among others. By '72 or so he was back to almost exclusively picking. My research confirms the Darlington Pair Emitter-Follower theory, one per pickup. I'm having those built when the bass is ready. Bassman - who built the bridge on your M-85? I believe the bridge on Phil's was just the stock 1969 Gibson "ever-tilt" bridge with an added tailpiece but those stock bridges are pretty crappy and hard to come by. Your bridge is exactly what I want to use. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 676 Registered: 5-2002 |
My guess is handpainted. I seem to remember something about that in an interview years and years ago. | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2003 |
Very Cool Rusty. Please keep us updated on the progress of the instrument. May I ask how much you paid for the body? I saw one on EBay recently. The guy was asking $900 which I thought was too much. Don p.s. - According to Bear's website, Bob Thomas passed away in 1993. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1123 Registered: 5-2009 |
rusty the scoob, How are you ? lol ---- I am not a contender in this race, but it is nice to hear from you regarding your project. I am currently waiting for the delivery of new old stock RCA CA3018 's . I found some online since my last post in this thread. I bought a lot of 5 . Next I will be researching to find schematics and will be doing some old fashion breadboarding .I will also be experimenting and adapting Alembic blasters in comparison. I am not trying to recreate a clone look alike instrument to the one that Mr. Lesh had , I am more after the timbral aspects , however I will be adding some of my own touch's as well. Sonic regards | ||
| rusty_the_scoob
Junior Username: rusty_the_scoob Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2008 |
The bass was around $550 shipped IIRC. I'll have around 3x that into it by the time I'm done but I'm going first class all the way. I'll definitely let you all know! It's been a very long road already. Thanks for the news about Bob. My mom and uncle seem to think it was airbrushed based on the Edwin pic, but hand painted sure makes more sense to me... I see hippies sitting around with paints and brushes rather than compressors and airguns... OTOH these were some VERY industrious hippies... Very cool, Sonicus! I can't wait to hear how they turn out! I have Waldo of Waldo Electronics lined up to build mine... despite my dad being an EE I don't have the patience for circuit design. His plans are to use a newer Darlington Pair (something by Motorola IIRC?)rather than the original NOS ones that you're using - or possibly even build both and compare the sound. So I'll be very interested in your progress! (Message edited by Rusty_the_Scoob on July 06, 2010) | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2003 |
Well as far as Hippies and airbrush are concerned, a lot of the Mouse/Kelley art employed airbrush, but I'm betting Bob Thomas was all hand painted. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1124 Registered: 5-2009 |
Rusty_ cool ! _____ I am a slow snail , I am also intrigued that you are are so enthusiastic about this . Your project will be awesome when finished, It will be even more exciting for you to play it at a gig ! | ||
| rusty_the_scoob
Junior Username: rusty_the_scoob Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2008 |
My main gigging bass is already a Coco Bolo, Mahogany, Maple and Purpleheart body that my dad built with a Warmoth neck, all built to my own design. Playing the Dead is a dream come true, need to make sure my sound delivers. (Message edited by Rusty_the_Scoob on July 07, 2010) | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 742 Registered: 10-2006 |
Rusty, Blair jackson says it was an EB-0 (Grateful Dead Gear, p. 88), & if you check the 2nd page of pictures in Phil's Searching For The Sound, bottom shot, you can clearly see the pre-mod bass with one p/up. I eagerly await a report on your finished instrument! Peter | ||
| rusty_the_scoob
Junior Username: rusty_the_scoob Post Number: 43 Registered: 6-2008 |
I've been obsessed with the details of this bass for well over a year and I have to respectfully disagree - I think the earlier EB0 and the later EB3 were not the same bass. In those early years Phil went through basses like Bobby went through guitars in the 70's and 80's, and he rarely keeps his basses once he's bored with them. In order to make a 60's EB0 match the details of the bass in the pics above they would have had to: 1. Swap the 3-ply pickguard for a 5 ply one. 2. Rout for the 2nd pickup in exactly the right location - the Hagstrom/DarkStar is wider but after much debate and study with my dad, determining the scale of the pics using the distances between the frets as a known distance and comparing it to measurements from currently-produced EB3s, the distance between the Hagstrom and bridge matches the distance between the Gibson mini-humbucker and bridge. The far edge of the pickup rout on a current Gibson and on Phil's EB-whatever are both 28 1/4" from the nut. 3. Drill three holes for the two additional knobs and the Varitone switch in exactly the right places for 1969-70 EB3 specs. 4. Possibly replace the bridge - I don't have SFTS in front of me but the main tray of the bridge on Phil's is exactly right for a 1969 bass. Gibson changed their bass bridge designs extremely often in the 60's - probably because they were all bad designs! I especially can't imagine them bothering to do 1 and 3. I think they'd have left the 3 ply pickguard on it and drilled the extra knob holes wherever they felt like it. This website has awesome details about historical Gibson basses: http://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/bass/ it's been my main resource for getting the historically accurate restoration-type details right. | ||
| kilowatt
Intermediate Member Username: kilowatt Post Number: 118 Registered: 12-2004 |
Guys, There is a 1966 EB-3 for sale on e-bay right now. Sale ends in about an hour, but I know some people here might be interested. Regards, Pete | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 679 Registered: 5-2002 |
Looks like a good deal for a fixer upper. I'd bid, but for the Series I on the way. | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2003 |
Looks like there is a giant crack through the bottom 3rd of the body. I think I'll pass. | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 65 Registered: 4-2003 |
I'm interested in learning more about Alembic Blasters for a Bass Application if anyone would like to impart their knowledge. Thanks! | ||
| mike1762
Senior Member Username: mike1762 Post Number: 585 Registered: 1-2008 |
I put a Blaster in my Tele Bass when I was in the process of transforming it from a Vintage instrument into a worthless pile of crap (very successfully I might add). The only thing I noticed was that the output was a bit "hotter". I have never made a modification to a guitar that I didn't later regret!!! | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 306 Registered: 5-2007 |
The Blaster makes my Strat XII sound clearer, which is a big benefit to a 12-string. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1131 Registered: 5-2009 |
The Birth of the Active Bass Pickup_________?http://books.google.com/books?id=5lBKzcs746oC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=alembic+blaster&source=bl&ots=uHuAHCl0OR&sig=yXFX0fBcb5cpiYihiPB3RVRG_Xc&hl=en&ei=jhw4TIvxLcb_lgfZ25nVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CDkQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=alembic%20blaster&f=false And there you have it friends ! " Bookworm" Power ! With a capital "B" | ||
| pace
Senior Member Username: pace Post Number: 580 Registered: 4-2004 |
I dunno about replacing the bridge on mine..... It still has the slider-switch with the foam mutes..... If only Jamerson played a Gibson?!? | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2003 |
So what do we know about the Phils Gibson? Looking at pictures I can see an alembic bridge, Hagstrom pups and a fat Alembic cable for sound and to power the electronics. As far as the electronics on this bass, the two Hagstroms with an RCA CA3018 for each? Anything else? Any neck work? | ||
| rusty_the_scoob
Junior Username: rusty_the_scoob Post Number: 47 Registered: 6-2008 |
Yep, with one correction: it's a stock Gibson two-point bridge with an added brass (I think) tailpiece. Functionally it's similar to a true Alembic bridge in that it rides on two posts that adjust via threaded inserts into the body, but it had nylon saddles, probably killing some sustain. The neck appears to be unmodified as far as I can tell, but they did swap on Gotoh GB7 tuners or very similar ones. The Family Dog DVD has some good shots of the back of the headstock confirming this IIRC. I think they replaced the fretboard of the Starfire that became the Godfather with ebony (at the very least they changed it to the oval inlays) but the Gibson stayed with the round dots - that is why I believe it stayed factory. The wiring besides the CA3018 (another correction: Ron Wickersham said it was a CA3036) buffers is unclear. The Varitone and output jack were both replaced with extra knobs to give it a total of six - one of these started out with the same function as the Vartione per Ron but was probably later changed to a master volume. Ron also stated that the buffers were soldered right to the terminals on the Hagstroms - they have good terminals for doing this unlike nearly every other pickup ever made. The fat Alembic cable carried the outputs of each pickup and powered the buffers. | ||
| rusty_the_scoob
Junior Username: rusty_the_scoob Post Number: 48 Registered: 6-2008 |
Not a bad start for somebody: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200496867738 | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9454 Registered: 5-2002 |
Cool article Wolf! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1145 Registered: 5-2009 |
Thanks Dave . After having found that article By Ron Wickersham on line I did a search to buy that publication on ebay. It was delivered today. | ||
| artswork99
Moderator Username: artswork99 Post Number: 1211 Registered: 7-2007 |
That article was great and the preceeding 3 pages by Susan and Mica were very cool too. Thanks Wolf! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1146 Registered: 5-2009 |
You are welcome Art. It is fun to share in our common interest. | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2003 |
If anyone is interested, there are several copies of this book available at abebooks.com: http://bit.ly/9QhiKw | ||
| pasewark
Member Username: pasewark Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2003 |
If anyone is interested, there are several copies of American Basses available at abebooks.com: http://bit.ly/9QhiKw |
