| Author | Message | ||
| connor
Junior Username: connor Post Number: 46 Registered: 9-2009 |
Ok, so I'm wondering how to get Phil Lesh's tone with my current setup. It is: Alembic Epic bass with flame maple top, DR Sunbeams Alembic F-2B Alembic SF-2 Eden WT-600 (used as a poweramp only) Eden 410XLT cab any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Connor | ||
| bsee
Senior Member Username: bsee Post Number: 2497 Registered: 3-2004 |
Steal his fingers and technique? First thing I'd do to get in the ballpark would be to find out what strings he uses and get a set. I have no idea what he is using. For the benefit of the Lesh fans out there, you may have to specify a particular era to match. When a guy has been on the scene for almost half a century, chances are the tone has changed over the years. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 824 Registered: 1-2005 |
Yes, definitely narrow in on what era you are talking about. Plus, use a pick! Any more than that, and I defer to the experts! | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 763 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yes - pick an era & research it, & use a pick. At least early on he used Pyramid Gold flatwounds. And get some bigger speakers. He's mostly used 15s, some 18s - I don't remember ever hearing of him using 10s. Then go back to childhood and study violin, switch to trumpet.......  Peter | ||
| connor
Junior Username: connor Post Number: 47 Registered: 9-2009 |
The era I'm going for is late 70's... like 1977 or 1978. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 765 Registered: 10-2006 |
"By '77 he was using a 3X15, a 4X12 and a 2X18." Blair Jackson, Grateful Dead Gear, 170. "During this period [Spring '77 tour], Phil was playing his Alembic custom through an Alembic F2B preamp hooked up to a McIntosh 2300 stereo power amp driving a pair of Hard Truckers cabinets filled with Gauss speakers - one with four 15s, the other with three 12s." ibid., 177. Peter | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 710 Registered: 5-2002 |
For that era I suggest trying to find some D'Addario Half-Rounds and playing with a pick. Back then I think it was a Fender Heavy, but recently Telefunken has reissued the graphite Dunlop that he's been using for the last 15 years at least (as well as Mike Gordon). I got a few from ebay and they are the real deal. Edwin | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 324 Registered: 5-2007 |
I met Phil (briefly) when his book Searching For The Sound came out, and I asked him where I could get a graphite pick like the ones that I heard he uses. He reached into his pocket and gave me his pick. It was a Dunlop Stubby triangular pick: Dunlop 473R Triangle Stubby Guitar Picks, 10 bucks for a dozen at M.F. They are made of Lexan. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 325 Registered: 5-2007 |
And now I am doubting my own veracity... After googling "Telefunken graphite pick" I saw some picks that look even more like the pick I got from Mr. Lesh than the Lexan ones I mentioned above. "Open mouth, insert foot, deal with it." I did try some actual graphite picks (thanks, Edwin) and like the sound better than any others I have tried. But I still don't sound like Lesh... | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9563 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hah! Maybe you're not holding it right. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1247 Registered: 5-2009 |
I remember when Mr. Lesh would play on occasion with his fingers instead of a pick .I think I recall seeing him play during the Alembic modified Gibson EB3 with Guild /Hagstrom pickups era. He ROARED on that Bass . It might have been one of his most visceral periods in tone. Think; " JACK LESH " lol ! | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 326 Registered: 5-2007 |
I was watching the Festival Express movie again the other day and Phil was using the Gibson with no pick on those shows. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 327 Registered: 5-2007 |
David, Thanks for the suggestion. I tried holding the pick differently but I still didn't sound like Lesh. Imagine that. ;-) | ||
| davehouck
Moderator Username: davehouck Post Number: 9573 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well then I don't know what it could be. | ||
| garth4664
Intermediate Member Username: garth4664 Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2008 |
how to get Phil Lesh's tone?...hmmm I'm thinking "drugs", "lots of drugs" | ||
| bassilisk
Member Username: bassilisk Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2009 |
I understand he reached a point where he was banned from the mixdowns because he was hearing colors and making suggestions to the engineer like "it needs more purple...." | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 714 Registered: 5-2002 |
I highly doubt that. With some exceptions later in their career and at the very beginning, the Grateful Dead handled most of their own technical work. So, certainly anyone who was working with them would probably have had a lot of sympathy for his point of view, shall we say. He also has had a good understanding of the technical aspects of music, so its doubtful that he would have been limited to such abstractions in making his views heard. Early on, the Dead did have difficulties in the studio interfacing with the "straight world" resulting in a letter from Joe Smith, their Warner Bros. rep, to their manager that read in part: "The recording in New York turned out to be very difficult. Lack of preparation, direction and cooperation from the very beginning have made this album the most unreasonable project with which we have ever involved ourselves. "Your group has many problems, it would appear, and I would believe that Hassinger has no further interest or desire to work with them under conditions similar to this last fiasco. It's apparent that no one in your organization has enough influence over Phil Lesh to evoke anything resembling normal behavior. You are now branded an undesirable group in almost every recording studio in Los Angeles. I haven't got all the New York reports in as yet, but the guys ran through engineers like a steamroller. "It all adds up to a lack of professionalism. The Grateful Dead is not one of the top acts in the business as yet. With their attitudes and their inability to take care of business when it is time do so would lead us to believe that they never will be truly important. No matter how talented your group is, they're going to have to put something of themselves into the business before they get anywhere." More is explained at this link:http://www.blairjackson.com/chapter_eight_additions.htm and if you read the quotes about Phil, you will realized that the difficulties were more a case of cultural miscommunication than some spaced out drugged up hippie being weird. BTW, hearing colors is known as synthesthesia. My wife is synthesthetic and as an artist has utilized this to her benefit. (www.artscent.com and http://www.wix.com/dshartstudio/dawnspencerhurwitz) Her visual art is informed by her career as a perfumer, which in turn was inspired, both in structure and technique, by her painting background. Her paintings often have fragrances that go with them (and those fragrances themselves, as art pieces in and of themselves, are constructed with the concept that they exist beyond being created to exist as a pretty thing that you wear). So, if you were constructing a fragrance with her and requested more purple, not only would she take you seriously, she'd do it! | ||
| slammin
Member Username: slammin Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2009 |
Wow, talk about perspective! Hear color. Draw fragrances. Really, not so far fetched from what we do everyday when you boil it down to things like, acting upon emotions, or any of the other tangibles that most are familiar with. Thanks - I've never quite grasped the correlation between art and form in the manner in which you describe, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense! I guess I never thought about it that way. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4553 Registered: 7-2004 |
Wasn't there a story about Phil or maybe Bobby asking the record company engineer for "the sound of heavy air", or something like that? I think Phil tells the story in a documentary I've seen. Bill, tgo | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 717 Registered: 5-2002 |
They talk about it in Anthem to Beauty, but in the link I provided, Hassinger said it never happened in the studio. Who to believe? Still, the heavy air was not as weird as it might seem. Weir was referring to colored sound, which he probably got from Phil. Colored sound (ie. pink, white, etc. noise) was a big thing in the late 50s and early 60s with the electronic music crowd (not to be confused with what gets called electronic music these which is dance music, as opposed to the music that evolved out of the modern classical scene). Phil was probably well aware of these things, what with his studies at Mills College and hanging with TC and all. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 826 Registered: 1-2005 |
Thanks for that link Edwin - lots of great reading there! Here's the section on "heavy air": Bob Weir is fond of saying that he drove Hassinger to the brink by asking the producer to come up with sound of "heavy air" on the record, but Hassinger dismisses that: "That did come up, but that was earlier. That might have even been in Haight-Ashbury. I just looked at him when he said it. But he said it in such a serious way, I didn't really know how to react. Actually, a little later we did seriously look into trying to get into a certain quality of sound like I suppose he was talking about. We were going to take all the equipment out to the desert east of L.A. and record out there, but it never happened." Relating to the concern with color in 20th century music, Alexander Scriabin was a late-19th/early-20th century composer who was deeply involved in the relationship between color and sound. He even had a "colour organ" which, instead of producing sounds, projected light! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Scriabin#Influence_of_colour One of the things I appreciate about the Dead is the fact that they are so much more than just a "rock" band - they incorporate so many influences, both from early American music as well as the 20th century classical and electronic music via Phil. | ||
| pace
Senior Member Username: pace Post Number: 607 Registered: 4-2004 |
IIRC Weir's request for "heavy air" was for the breakdown in Born Cross-eyed. While in mixdown, it's a hard demand to meet, but in regards to live sound, especially outdoors, humidity is an often neglected factor when tuning a system. As far as synthesthesia goes, I can attest that it is a very 'real' condition, and one of the fundamental building blocks to all those "perfect pitch" courses that you used to see in the guit/bass mags back in the day.... While they were really teaching how to develop a good sense of "relative pitch", relating the color spectrum to our 12 tone system can be a helpful tool. FWIW, The only time I see color generated from a vibrating string, is in the vicinity of A 110hz or 220hz, and the colors generated are green and red. No joke.... | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4554 Registered: 7-2004 |
I often used to see music as color. Of course it was usually in Winterland, I was hanging with about 5000 other people, including the Dead, and as for the alteredness of my consciousness at the time, I plead the fifth! lol Bill, tgo | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 718 Registered: 5-2002 |
Not an uncommon experience, given the circumstances, but, interestingly, not something in which Dawn has ever indulged. Some of us are lucky enough to be born with it! When I was at Berklee and in some of my subsequent projects, I have experimented with using colors and images as a musical score. it was an interesting exercise that has had application in the rest of my musical life. Given that music is a language with which we communicate, I think it's useful to be able to make these connections. Now, if I want a jam to be more blue, I have something to work with. Listeners might not get it, but perhaps there is some coherent abstraction they might grasp. | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 316 Registered: 5-2002 |
Interesting! I have always been fascinated in the interactive nature of music, especially live music, and Edwin's comments above got me thinking...so here is the Socratic question (sorry for the veiled reference Edwin If Edwin wants the jam to be more blue, and applies a technique that, for him, progresses to that end, but a given listener doesn't get it as presented but instead hears, feels or sees something else, has Edwin failed? For me, the answer is no. If I am part of an ensemble, we may wish that a song, or perhaps its tonality, groove or lyrics, convey a certain idea. However, a listener might hear something completely different than what was intended...which, for me, is beautiful and very cool. As the players, we can only do our best, but if a listener wants or needs to hear the music as something else, so be it. End of thread hijack | ||
| rusty_the_scoob
Member Username: rusty_the_scoob Post Number: 51 Registered: 6-2008 |
Heh! Back to the practical matter.... to the setup in the orignial post I'd switch to D'Addario Half Rounds ideally or any good set of flats, and a pick. My preferred easily-available pick is a Dunlop 2mm Gator Grip. I like the graphite ones as well but they're tougher to get and more expensive, and 90% the same pick. I use both types interchangeably. This will all put you closer to an 80's Phil sound IMHO, but it's a good start. 1977 requires a shortscale neck and warmer, less modern amplification. You can get close enough with a 34" neck if you work the mids on that SF-2. | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 764 Registered: 9-2002 |
If you pick guys havent checked em out yet, try the john pearse buffalo horn picks...I have one that has a cut for your index finger. http://www.jpstrings.com/brnew.htm They are a little pricey, but seem to last awhile. | ||
| cozmik_cowboy
Senior Member Username: cozmik_cowboy Post Number: 775 Registered: 10-2006 |
In '77 Phil was playing his osage orange "Mission Control" Alembic - I don't think that was short scale. Peter | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1291 Registered: 5-2009 |
I think it was perhaps medium scale . I saw that Bass on the work bench in person while it was opened during it's wiring procedure. I still have a few pictures of it. | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1506 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think I experience hearing colors, as every time I hear rap music I see red. Yodeling does it as well. Occasionally, there's no music involved, like listening to an interview with Lars Ulrich. Any record of homicidal overtones with this? And more importantly, does Phil remember what he sounds like? J o e y | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 842 Registered: 1-2005 |
If he doesn't, he can always listen to a tape of the show! | ||
| llobsterbass
Member Username: llobsterbass Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2004 |
Owsley has said many times that his quest that culminated in the Wall of Sound was sparked ca. 1966 in the LA pink house when he smoked some DMT and SAW the music coming out of the speakers during Dead band practice. | ||
| slicknickhaas
Junior Username: slicknickhaas Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2009 |
My recipe for modern/vintage Phil tone, Take one Modulus Quantom and dress it with Shadowsky flat wounds, Simmer in one Alembic FB-2, plumbed by dropping bass into CH. A with a line also run into Ch.B (stereo) then take one Vintage Fender Bassman 100, and run CH.A to the bass input and CH. B to the normal input, set The volume on CH B at zero and dial CH A to taste, then turn A down and set up CH B, set the volumes the same and enjoy! I've run this with a Fender bassman 4/12 cabnet, or a eden 4/10 with or with out a 1/15, but for the best sound, use one of each! | ||
| cosmic
Member Username: cosmic Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2005 |
Modulus, half rounds, graphite pick....etc The next key to his "modern" sound is his amps and how he is EQing them. He's running an Eden WT800 head and a pair of Eden D410XLT stacks. The unique thing is in the EQ. He is running the Eden EQ rather odd. See the picture.  The gray knob is the "Enhance" knob. According to Eden it "The Enhance circuitry adds very low bass, upper mids and highs while scooping out a bit of low middle. The more Enhance you dial in, the greater the boost (and cut)." Most players don't have it past 9 o'clock on the dial. Phil has it pegged all the way. That is a MAJOR cut in the mids and a boost in the lows, upper mids and highs. The red knob to the right is a shelving low tone at 30HZ that can provide a 15dB cut or boost (all of the rest of the knobs can cut/boost 15dB) The next three red knobs are the parametric boost/cut for low, mid and high. The top knobs set the frequency, the bottom knobs cut/boost that specified frequency (counter clockwise = cut; clockwise=boost) He is boosting a low around 100HZ, a mid around 500HZ and slight cut at 6.5K. Note that on these Edens, one click of the knob is a MAJOR cut/boost in decibels. So he is doing some aggressive boosts on the low and mid parametric. Finally, the last red knob pictured to the far right is a shelving high control at 11KHz that is taking a nice cut. When he ran the Meyer 218 and 112 cabinets he also used a a Meyer Sound CP-10 parametric EQ. Phil would run the Eden Enhance full, and bring the mids back in the with CP-10. I am not sure if he is still using the CP-10 now that he has the Eden cabs and is just using the Eden head to boost back in the mids, or is doing a little of both. Either way, his basic set up is Enhance FULL and then pushing the mids back in down the line. Here is an Eden discussion that has another pic of his Eden head -- with very different EQ settings (besides the Enhance) - which makes me think he is now relying more on the head to push the mids back out vs. the CP-10. http://www.eden-electronics.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17360 However you slice it, Phil is using the Eden head in a way that is not recommended by the factory in their suggestions on how to get a good sound. According to the Eden tech Mike Gordon is using it in a similar fashion. You gotta love Phil. Anyways....hope this view of his EQ helps some of you toneheads figure out what Phil is up to. | ||
| cosmic
Member Username: cosmic Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2005 |
By comparison, here is Mike Gordon's Eden. You can see he has marked off where he wants the knobs to be be baselined. Below the head is a Meyer CP-10. In another rack (not pcitured) he has the Avalon U5 to shove the mids back in. Same deal, Enhance full - pushing mids back in with either the Meyer CP-10 or the Avalon (or both). Odd set-up....but I have to say, Phil and Mike get an incredibly CLEAN and warm tone that is heard in the mix.  | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1599 Registered: 9-2002 |
It's the typical setup for people playing thin-sounding-to-them basses: Cut the bejeezus out of the mids (I have an Eden Metro, and that 'enhance' knob is a 'master smiley face' control) to kill the clickety-clack, then fatten it back up on the back side ( ! ). I'd be drinking out of a hospital straw too. Owning an Eden (right up there with an IRS audit or root canals with aspirin for anesthesia) has made me want nothing more than an F2B. I can NOT understand how we've gotten to the point where basses have 3-band EQ running into amps with a front end that has more EQ than most recording boards when you don't need it and are courting a 100% chance you'll have crappy tone by the time it's all said and done. Gee, maybe that's the secret to the PhilTone ! J o e y | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 399 Registered: 5-2007 |
I love my Eden WT-400+ !!!!! The "starter" sound (EQ flat) is really good, and, as previously mentioned, the EQ controls are REALLY powerful. I am happy with it every time it's used. The D.I. seems to work well, too. The amp is a GREAT match for an Acme Low B-2: great sounding and portable, too. (And every time I use it... I STILL don't sound like Lesh.) | ||
| llobsterbass
Member Username: llobsterbass Post Number: 88 Registered: 5-2004 |
Thanks, great thread, especially the EQ pix. Been wanting that data for ages. I never would have guessed those settings and I've been listening very closely to both of em for 25 years. I'm stunned that both Phil & Mike pin the ENHANCE knob at 100%. I use just a taste, at most. usually none. beyond a little, I start to hear it and it's notably boomy and weird. Mike's high-mid cut makes sense if you're playing a Modulus, but he cuts a much lower frequency than I do. There's a range in the high mids that hits me right in the sinus; a few dB rolloff does the trick. I run my Eden nearly flat all the time. Ironic for an amp with so many EQ options, but it's great to have them when needed for different basses. Remember, also, that Phil at least varies his EQ significantly from gig to gig to dial in the room. Dunno about Mike but my guess is not as much. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 847 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ouch, Joey! I used to feel that way about Eden too, but a backline experience changed my mind this past fall. However, I'm much more judicious with the enhance knob. My basses are anything but thin. As far as the bass with EQ running into a mess of knobs, is that that far off from running a Series bass into an F2B/1X and SF-2? Neither that setup or into an Eden WP100 has made my tone crappy. But, to each their own. Who knows, maybe it's just that no one has the heart to tell me that my tone sucks. | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4717 Registered: 7-2004 |
Edwin: I've heard you play. Rest assured your tone doesn't suck. In fact, I quite enjoyed it. But what do I know, for I am merely: Bill, the guitar one | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 849 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks Bill, but we all know that one man's treasure is another man's suck! I think the bottom line of this thread, as it is for many, is that if it sounds good to you and feels good to you, it is good, no matter what you have to do to get there and what others think. Unlike the law, if you screw up, no one has to go to jail! | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1549 Registered: 5-2009 |
Well Stated Edwin _____ | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1601 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well, I'm glad you guys got the tresure part of it . . . it sounds OK, but the issues I've had otherwise . . . oh well, I know how to fix it. Eden's changed hands for the third time recently, and Nordschow has now launched his DNA line on his own. Never again . . . . J o e y | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1891 Registered: 10-2003 |
I've gotten to the point (pun intended) with the Series bass to just run things flat. Everything I need is on the bass or in the hands. I do recognize that's not gonna work for everyone. Tuning the room is the FOH guy's gig. I'll keep my amp turned down and out of his/her way. John | ||
| bigredbass
Senior Member Username: bigredbass Post Number: 1602 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yes, Edwin, alright, the standard disclaimer: They're wonderful amps used by lots of right-thinking bassists, and it's a big wonderful world where we are all free to follow our ears to whatever works for each of us. There . . . . the curmudgeon attack is easing off now . . . . all the vital signs are almost normal . . . . that red mist is a horrible thing. I got my Metro/115 stack as Eden was making the bumpy transition from cottage industry to US Music ownership. It wasn't pretty. It's a sore subject. I'll behave, I promise. Excuse me, fellas . . . . J o e y | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1550 Registered: 5-2009 |
It is sad but true but not all FOH folks have got "EARS" and much less " GOLDEN EARS". If an artist really knows what "THEIR" sound is and they know how to get it on stage A GOOD FOH person will respect that sound. Unfortunately their are limitations as to what can be done in some circumstances and variables of venue design /location / equipment, knowledge and BUDGET. Most important is sensitivity and willingness of the FOH person to really care. I have been on both sides of the situation and have had an FOH person make a huge mess of things while I was playing on stage. | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 321 Registered: 5-2002 |
This thread has gone to yet another interesting place... Over the last few years I have decided that, for me the use of a fairly radical EQ approach on my rig (like, for instance, cranking the "Enhance" knob) is a symptom that something is wrong somewhere else in the signal chain, or that the house acoustics are weird. Leaving acoustics aside, it seems to me that if I am playing a bass that actually sounds pretty close to what I am hearing in my head I shouldn't have to resort to radical EQ solutions. That said, I agree completely with Edwin: if it sounds good and feels good to you it is good, and it really doesn't matter how you get there. I remember and old Guitar Player magazine interview with Stephen Stills where he explained that when he played bass he preferred to use completely dead flatwounds, so he would "prepare" his strings by soaking them in barbecue sauce. "Whatever's right," he muttered... | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 322 Registered: 5-2002 |
This thread has gone to yet another interesting place... Over the last few years I have decided that, for me the use of a fairly radical EQ approach on my rig (like, for instance, cranking the "Enhance" knob) is a symptom that something is wrong somewhere else in the signal chain, or that the house acoustics are weird. Leaving acoustics aside, it seems to me that if I am playing a bass that actually sounds pretty close to what I am hearing in my head I shouldn't have to resort to radical EQ solutions. That said, I agree completely with Edwin: if it sounds good and feels good to you it is good, and it really doesn't matter how you get there. I remember and old Guitar Player magazine interview with Stephen Stills where he explained that when he played bass he preferred to use completely dead flatwounds, so he would "prepare" his strings by soaking them in barbecue sauce. "Whatever's right," he muttered... | ||
| s_wood
Advanced Member Username: s_wood Post Number: 323 Registered: 5-2002 |
This thread has gone to yet another interesting place... Over the last few years I have decided that, for me the use of a fairly radical EQ approach on my rig (like, for instance, cranking the "Enhance" knob) is a symptom that something is wrong somewhere else in the signal chain, or that the house acoustics are weird. Leaving acoustics aside, it seems to me that if I am playing a bass that actually sounds pretty close to what I am hearing in my head I shouldn't have to resort to radical EQ solutions. That said, I agree completely with Edwin: if it sounds good and feels good to you it is good, and it really doesn't matter how you get there. I remember and old Guitar Player magazine interview with Stephen Stills where he explained that when he played bass he preferred to use completely dead flatwounds, so he would "prepare" his strings by soaking them in barbecue sauce. "Whatever's right," he muttered... | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1892 Registered: 10-2003 |
Several years ago I had a long chat with Dream Theatre's road manager about this. He was also the FOH engineer. John Myung insisted on sending post-eq to the house, consequently there wasn't enough midrange to work with to give him any definition in the house. His signal was all deep rumble and sizzling highs, and completely lost in the room even though when he played I swear my ears popped. What I take from this is that sure, the sound guy needs to take a listen up close to what your tone is, but you've got to give him or her what they need to make that workable in the larger sonic picture. I know from experience that a number of FOH guys seem to suck only because the band doesn't do what it needs to do to create a workable situation for everyone in the room. And then, of course, there are FOH guys who really do suck. I remember that Stephen Stills interview, and especially the barbeque sauce bit. *sigh* John | ||
| benson_murrensun
Advanced Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 400 Registered: 5-2007 |
I heard that James Jamerson used old, dead flatwounds; and he liked to eat greasy fried chicken before playing and get the grease on the strings. Tone for days! | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 819 Registered: 9-2002 |
What about Phil's overdrive, distorted tone ? I've tried a couple of pedals in the past to try and get that but none of really sounded all that great. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Senior Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 401 Registered: 5-2007 |
When I think of Phil's sound I don't think of overdrive. Where are there examples to be heard? | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 820 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hey Ben Overall his tone has always been really clean, but there are a few examples from the late 60's early 70's where he has a distorted, overdriven signal, I've always wondered whether or not it was intentional. I'll try and post some archive.org references later tonight unless someone beats me to it. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Senior Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 402 Registered: 5-2007 |
Cool, and thanks. Hey, maybe he hiJACKed a Versatone. (sorry) | ||
| elwoodblue
Senior Member Username: elwoodblue Post Number: 1173 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'll look forward to that glocke, I've been using one of my GT Trio preamps for overdriven bass sounds with my exploiter . Interesting that I bought it for guitar (Jerry tones)and I find that it is just as wonderful for clean and dirty bass tones. Great stuff in this thread...thanks everyone!! | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 822 Registered: 9-2002 |
well, heres one: http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-05-03.sbd.samaritano.21923.sbeok.shnf track 24 (other one jam), to me it sounds like there is some overdrive toward the end of his solo, probably just pushing his amp to the max I guess. Also, he sounds kind of gritty during his solo on the eyes of the world on one from the vault as does some of the stuff that was released on the fillmore west 1969 boxed set sounds overdriven to me. (Message edited by glocke on January 21, 2011) | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 852 Registered: 5-2002 |
I remember reading an interview from the early 70s where he mentions being able to overdrive things with his preamps. I wonder if some of it is with a lot of resonance in the onboard filters. It sounds like it might be the case here. Speaking of 1972 shows, anyone else in on the Europe '72 box set? http://www.dead.net/features/release-info/holy-s-it-s-complete-europe-72-box-over-60-discs | ||
| lbpesq
Senior Member Username: lbpesq Post Number: 4721 Registered: 7-2004 |
Edwin: There's already a well populated thread on the box set here. Bill, tgo | ||
| cosmic
Member Username: cosmic Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2005 |
I like the turn this thread has taken. A couple of comments: 1. I can understand why guys like Phil or Mike Gordon have all these EQ options. For one, they are both tone-chasers and that is evident in how nice their basses consistently sound at each and every show they play. And consider they are playing large arena with varying acoustical problems far different than a small club. So maybe having the capability to fine tune their EQ to such an extreme is how they are able to maintain such consistently nice live sounds arena to arena, year in and year out. 2. The bottomline though is -- do what works for you. I look at what Phil does with his EQ, tone, equipment and I try to understand what problem he is trying to solve, challenge he is overcoming, ,strength he is bolstering, warmth he is enhancing etc in his sonic quest. The exact details, exact EQ setting, exact this and that may or may not work for me. But either way, learning how someone else does something, certainly can help to inform my own personal "search for the sound" in my own head. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Senior Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 403 Registered: 5-2007 |
Gregory, Yes, that's some bass overdrive from Phil! Thanks for the link. I like the tone, but I'm glad he usually plays it clean... 'cause I like that mo' betta. Ben | ||
| glocke
Senior Member Username: glocke Post Number: 824 Registered: 9-2002 |
So recomendations for a pedal to get that kind of sound ? I've tried a couple, and have yet to find something that does justice for tube driven bass overdrive?? Someone (James Demeter actually) suggested I try something called the Uberdrive, but I have not found a pedal like that anywhere on the internet. | ||
| benson_murrensun
Senior Member Username: benson_murrensun Post Number: 405 Registered: 5-2007 |
I have been very happy with the SansAmp Bass Driver to add some overdrive. I have also toyed with the idea of getting a ZVEX Wooly Mammoth or a bass Big Muff, but those are kind of over-the-top, more heavy distortion than overdrive. | ||
| hieronymous
Senior Member Username: hieronymous Post Number: 877 Registered: 1-2005 |
I would go so far as to say that the Woolly Mammoth is full on FUZZ, which doesn't play too well with active instruments. | ||
| dfung60
Senior Member Username: dfung60 Post Number: 474 Registered: 5-2002 |
It hasn't been made for years now, but I think the SWR Interstellar Overdrive (http://www.swrsound.com/support/manuals/pdfs/interstellarod.pdf) looked pretty interesting. I think this was designed in response to people requesting an all-tube SWR amp. I've never tried one myself. David Fung | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1570 Registered: 5-2009 |
The SWR product is OK . But how about the Alembic F2-B with Channel 1 cascaded into Channel 2 ? I have tried it . It works at getting overdrive distortion . It's Ok as well if distortion is what you desire. It can be pre amp as well as a multi- purpose effector. A big warm pre-amp sound if there ever was one. | ||
| 811952
Senior Member Username: 811952 Post Number: 1900 Registered: 10-2003 |
Cascading channel 1 into channel 2 is the true beauty of the F2-B imo. Wish I still had mine. John | ||
| slawie
Advanced Member Username: slawie Post Number: 305 Registered: 8-2002 |
I just tried cascading my F2-B yesterday. Had my Jazz bass with Alembic pickups into 1 of channel A and cascaded into 1 of channel B Talk about getting the warm fuzzies! The power amp was set to parallel out so that I could get sound out of both speakers what can I say but...... Holy snappin' rsoles Margaret! slawie | ||
| moonliner
Junior Username: moonliner Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2004 |
I'm sure this question is answered somewhere in the forum already, but what bass is Phil using on American Beauty? It sounds similar to my favorite GD release, Europe 72 but I don't think Phil had the Godfather at the time of recording American Beauty... Thanks. I love this forum. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 870 Registered: 5-2002 |
My guess is the modified Gibson EB3. It's possible that it was the Starfire, but I doubt it. The similarities are due to Pyramid strings, short scale, Alembic modifications, amplification and Phil's fingers and mind. | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1628 Registered: 5-2009 |
Might be_ The Alembic Modified EB3 with Guild/ Hagstrom Pickups. Pickups might have had additional magnet material and wired with "Darlington Pair" emitter circuit.___ (RCA 3018) MIGHT BE ? I really like the tone from that Bass as well as I have noted on this site a few times . I have read that that Bass was stolen at some point . SAD_______ Happy tone searching, and as always , Sonic Regards __________ | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1629 Registered: 5-2009 |
Edwin is right , it also could have been the Starfire . And also the Pyramid Gold strings , I still use those on occasion as well. | ||
| edwin
Senior Member Username: edwin Post Number: 871 Registered: 5-2002 |
The EB3 was stolen and then turned up in a music store in the late 70s. Some guy bought it for $400 and offered it back to Phil for that price and he refused. I think it was Dan Schwartz who relayed that story. He got to play it at the time. From there, who knows where it went? It's probably sitting in a closet somewhere. It is a great sounding bass. I tried to get an early 60s EB3 to sound like that (it had one of the very first sets of Dark Stars on it), but it didn't ever quite capture the tone. My Starfire is closer. | ||
| dadabass2001
Senior Member Username: dadabass2001 Post Number: 1549 Registered: 6-2002 |
IIRC, doesn't Phil play the EB3 in "Festival Express"? What a DVD! Mike | ||
| sonicus
Senior Member Username: sonicus Post Number: 1631 Registered: 5-2009 |
Yes, Phil plays his EB3 in "Festival Express" He plays alot without a pick , his finger style phase that I really like . I love this movie too ! I have the 2 DVD version_ it's AWESOME ! a must have. |
