| Author |
Message |
kungfusheriff
Senior Member
Username: kungfusheriff
Post Number: 751
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 9:25 am: |  |
Politics aside, as the father of two children of mixed race, it was an incredible feeling to stand in the voting booth with my son next to me and my daughter in my arms and vote for a presidential candidate who was "like us." That's all I have to say about it. |
dannobasso
Senior Member
Username: dannobasso
Post Number: 894
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 9:27 am: | |
I'm sure Rev, Wright, Farrakhan and Rashid Kallidhi will suggest a candidate for that position to the President Elect in the event the VP elect is vacated from his post if Liberman is not available. |
flaxattack
Senior Member
Username: flaxattack
Post Number: 2105
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 10:15 am: | |
bill
a jewish president? if i see that before i die it would mean more than the rangers winning the stanley cup in 94! lol
i am not a lieberman fan even though hes the sen from my state..
i believe that it was said that mccain wanted lieberman as his vp but was voted down by the republican hierarchy because he was initially a democrat who moved to independent because he lost the primary here. so to show them he picked sarah palin.. brilliant move
thats like pulling mike mussina from the mound and bringing in hidecki irabu!!!!!!!!! |
benson_murrensun
Member
Username: benson_murrensun
Post Number: 68
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 10:23 am: | |
We may have already had a Jewish President: Franklin Roosevelt. His mother was of Jewish ancestry, and by Jewish law, the son of a Jewish mother is Jewish as well. FWIW. |
pas
Intermediate Member
Username: pas
Post Number: 136
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 10:37 am: | |
Flax,
1) No, I didn't work for McCain. I respect his military service but disagree substantially with him regarding many political issues.
2) "...you don't want to pay your fair share of taxes." Listen, Obama is like any other politician - he talks out of BOTH sides of his mouth. On the one hand he says that your taxes will go up only if you make in excess of $250K/year. On the other hand he says he'll let the capital gains tax cuts expire, in effect at least doubling the rate from 15% to 30%. 50% of Americans...those with IRAs, 401Ks, mutual funds, etc. will be subject to this increase, no matter what bracket they're in. And no, I don't feel one scintilla of guilt for not wanting to be extorted by the federal government to subsidize the 50% of the population that pays ZERO income tax, while pumping out kids they can't pay for. But then, I guess that's a fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives believe that children are wards of their parents. Liberals believe that children are wards of the state. I'll choose my own charities, thank you very much.
I certainly would have been more than happy to vote for a black man for president...unfortunately neither J.C. Watts nor Ward Connerly were running. Those folks that cast their ballot for Obama based primarily on his race...without either knowing or caring about his potential policy positions...are, by definition racist.
But then, I guess I'm one of the few people left who actually remembers what MLK Jr.'s dream was...to be judged by the content of one's character, not by the color of one's skin. |
phylo
Member
Username: phylo
Post Number: 88
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 10:42 am: | |
I think the smart money is on the bet that Palin was picked for him not by him. In other news, she actually stated that '2012 seems like years away.' Paraphrased.
Did anyone else catch the clip of McCain explaining that because Palin's husband finished a snowmobile race with a broken arm that 'he has
what it takes to take on Washington,' and then by some associative property (one left out of my Algebra 1 class) that so does she. Anyway, that was one of my favorite moments of her 15 mins. |
hydrargyrum
Advanced Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 398
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 11:10 am: | |
Without entering a heated discussion, let me just say I would rather sacrifice some of my hard earned income, than to know that a child goes hungry or without medication. If you are willing to allow innocents to suffer because of the mistakes of their parents, well, then we just have a fundamental disagreement that I expect we cannot resolve. As for their parents? Well, that's a bit more complicated. There are any number of scenarios I can conceive of where decent hardworking people might be down on their luck, that don't require them to be lazy. Do people cheat the system? Sure. My uncle was a worthless meth addict who did his fair share of that. Should we throw the baby out with the bathwater(heh heh), or should we work to improve the system?
And as for voting for someone because of the color of their skin, you can bet just as many people (like my grandparents, for instance) voted against him for that very reason. To assume that everyone who voted for Obama did so because of his race alone is in my opinion an irrational conclusion which sounds like the right is making excuses for McCain's loss. |
pas
Intermediate Member
Username: pas
Post Number: 137
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 11:41 am: | |
I neither stated nor implied that everyone who voted for Obama did so because of his race. I addressed those who voted for Obama based PRIMARILY on his race. Not sure if your mischaracterization is intentional or inadvertant.
So if your grandparents voted against Obama on the basis of his race, then that makes their rationale equally contemptable. But I don't think two wrongs make a right. |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3362
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 12:42 pm: | |
Kevin:
Am I Jewish? Do I answer questions with a question? Did I go into my father's business? Does my mother think I'm God? To quote Sara Palin: "You betcha".
Not only am I proud to be an American, I'm also proud to be a member of this family. Though this thread has taken some turns I didn't intend, and has come close to driving off the cliff a couple of times, we have managed to keep things fairly on track in a mutually respectful and civil manner.
Paul:
You wrote: "I don't feel one scintilla of guilt for not wanting to be extorted by the federal government to subsidize the 50% of the population that pays ZERO income tax" Do big corporations and multi-millionaires really make up 50% of our population? WOW!
The above was a joke. I couldn't resist.
Seriously though, I suggest to you that the election is over and this really isn't the place to try and keep the campaign alive. Regardless of political affiliation, the election of anyone other than a Caucasion Protestant male is a big deal in this Country. I am just old enough to remember what a big deal it was that JFK, a Catholic, could get elected. If Condi Rice had run and won, I would have been immensely disappointed in her politics, but I still would have been proud that a woman of color could run and win. I didn't like Hillary, but I was proud that she was able to be a serious candidate. The more colors, shapes, types, and sizes of people that have a chance, and the more people that come out to vote, the better for all of us in the long run.
Bill, tgo |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 111
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 1:23 pm: | |
Big corporations and multi-millionaires don't make up 50% of the population, but I'll bet they provide around 50% of the jobs. They can also do something that most of us can't... they can move to where the taxes are lower, and they can take those jobs with them.
BTW, and I'm sure people are going to love this one... Exxon Mobil paid $11.3 billion in income taxes this past quarter. They'll be paying over $40 billion in income taxes for the year. So we're going to call them greedy while we grab as much as we can from them? Count me out.
Mike |
phylo
Member
Username: phylo
Post Number: 89
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 1:42 pm: | |
Mike,
But, but...but....ah nevermind.
Anyone own the MOTU 828 mk3? |
hydrargyrum
Advanced Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 399
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 2:20 pm: | |
Sorry Paul,
I think that you may have unintentionally been the recipient of some of the frustration I have been feeling by observing the reactions of others on the internet to this election. Clearly you do not imply that everyone who voted for Obama was racially motivated, and I apologize for implying otherwise. I really didn't intend to direct my second statement at you, but this was obviously unclear from my post. |
hydrargyrum
Advanced Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 400
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 2:26 pm: | |
Exxon Posts Record Profits:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/
http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/
I am guessing with these kinds of numbers, Exxon at least won't be going anywhere. All of this amid the highest gas prices ever in America's history. Even if this isn't greedy, I still think it isn't good for America's economy, and is especially hard for those to swallow in the lowest tax brackets (such as myself). |
pas
Intermediate Member
Username: pas
Post Number: 138
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 2:26 pm: | |
Kevin,
De nada...  |
bassman10096
Senior Member
Username: bassman10096
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 3:45 pm: | |
I am happy if BO's election means we don't have to endure as much snarky snideness from those in other countries whose race and class problems are just as real as America's. It's good when our actions serve to disprove widely parroted BS about us. I also think it's good that America went for a younger, certainly more exciting candidate. In fairness, the Dem's lucked into Obama on that score, but between Bush, Gore and Kerry in 2000 and 2004, there wasn't much to get charged up about.
On the other hand, I genuinely can't find anything else that I like about the result. My hard work is redistributed enough already, thank you. And I don't consider myself "unpatriotic" to say so.
"America spoke clearly and concisely, what was going on had to stop."
With all due respect, can the melodrama on the left have finally reached its crescendo? Who will be to blame now?
Sorry for politicizing. I'll say no more. |
dlbydgtl
Junior
Username: dlbydgtl
Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 3:56 pm: | |
What's really upsetting is that the L.A. Galaxy paid all that money fot Beckham and let him play the off season for AC MIlan ouch. now there's a waste of money. |
phylo
Member
Username: phylo
Post Number: 90
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 3:59 pm: | |
My last post here, I swear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qL-CgzQ0FY |
olieoliver
Senior Member
Username: olieoliver
Post Number: 1949
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 4:04 pm: | |
Thanks Bill, I've just been slammed for time. With school, studio work, playing (at Church) and my recent carreer change, I haven't been able to log on much.
OO |
flaxattack
Senior Member
Username: flaxattack
Post Number: 2107
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 4:04 pm: | |
wasnt being melodramatic justfactual....
ps
i will blame obama if he fs up
he isnt god
he isnt the savior
just president- he may get a bit of a longer leash but dont think everyone is going to give him a free pass....
btw- think the dead will play the inaugural???? |
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke
Post Number: 489
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 4:53 pm: | |
Im jsut wondering if this thread will break 100 posts tonight... |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 112
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 5:36 pm: | |
Post number 86...
Kevin, everyone knows Exxon Mobil makes a ton of money, but nobody ever mentions the taxes they pay.
Flax, some of us will blame Obama if he messes up, but will the press? Don't count on it.
And right on to Bill/bassman. I've been hearing people take cheap shots at our president and our country for the past 8 years. It got real old about 7.9 years ago. I'm almost glad to see Obama win just so we can stop having to listen to all of that crap. But somehow I don't think it's going to end. Obama is everyone's hero until the first time he has to tell someone "no". Then they won't be so happy anymore.
Mike |
dlbydgtl
Junior
Username: dlbydgtl
Post Number: 34
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 5:47 pm: | |
i just want my alembic to be finished and shipped before the new Government figures out how to tax interstate internet sales. uh oh i'm getting sucked in...how bout them Bears |
bassman10096
Senior Member
Username: bassman10096
Post Number: 1169
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 6:03 pm: | |
"wasnt being melodramatic justfactual...."
Hey Flax: I was just picking on you. But at some point, it's hard (it may even become physically impossible!?!) to gloat and whine in the same sentence. Everybody has their day in the barrel and each dog has his day (just to mix metaphors). Enjoy your victory. I know this meant a lot to you and a lot of us out there. Now, if you'll forgive, it's my turn to whine... |
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 401
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 6:37 pm: | |
I'm not sure what you mean by no one ever mentions the taxes that Exxon (or for that matter, any other large corporation pay). Sure no one ever seems to mentions the exact figure, but you can't deny that one of the fundamental principles of the republican platform is to reduce corporate taxes. This seems to be one of their strongest talking points in any election, and hardly is ignored as topic in politics. Are they too high? I don't know. How much wealth does any one person really need (and I specifically refer to corporate CEO's here). When does exorbitant wealth become greed? The average CEO of a fortune 500 company made 14.2 million dollars in 2007. I just don't feel sorry for these folks when I hear they are going to pay higher taxes. This is the social contract they make when they enjoy the freedom and abundance of being an American.
I expect that there will be lots of "no's" in Obama's presidency. The country is on the brink of an economic peril not seen in nearly a century. I expect we all will see lots of tough choices ahead, aside from the dangers we now face in two foreign wars. Let's keep perspective that these are inherited challenges, and that they would test the greatest of our leaders on both sides of the aisle. |
crgaston
Senior Member
Username: crgaston
Post Number: 487
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 7:07 pm: | |
I was going to stay out of this, but I'll weigh in to boost the post count. :-)
A good friend of mine is a self-employed house painter with 9 kids (!). He has observed that he doesn't get hired by poor people.
Reducing corporate taxes lets the companies hire more people and reinvest in their businesses. It also lets them pay their executives ridiculous amounts of money. Maybe salary caps is the answer? How do you legislate against greed? It'd be like trying to make lust illegal.
The best thing to do, I think, is to abolish income tax and institute a federal sales tax. You could exempt necessities, and maybe add a premium on luxury items. It would eliminate the IRS, reward people for saving, and catch all the under-the-table income like drug dealers and illegal immigrants. |
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 402
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 7:15 pm: | |
That sounds like an idea I would definitely get behind Charles. I don't think anyone wants to strangle business, as much as close the income gap sot that 5% of our country doesn't control 95% of the wealth.
Okay, I think I have said too much already on what is a polite forum. I apologize if my remarks offend anyone, and hope to presume that on other less contentious topics, we might have as free and open a discourse before as before I was foolish enough to expose my politics. My sincere and best wishes to every person on this forum who loves their country enough to be so concerned regarding its future. |
dannobasso
Senior Member
Username: dannobasso
Post Number: 896
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 7:57 pm: | |
Flat tax baby! Everybody pays the same percentage. Here in Jersey in the days of Florio, taxes on business went up, sales tax went up, tolls went up and environmental related fees on things like waste oil etc. went up. Jobs left for less constricting areas of the country. I lost 2 jobs in the manufacturing sector during that stretch. I now teach high school academics to emotionally-behaviorally challenged students from at-risk environments. (ie. the kids that get kicked out of your school because they can't figure out how to teach them and get them to behave because of the divorce, substance abuse, violence, low income environments that fostered the dysfunctional survival skills of anti-social actions). Overcoming challenges of this sort takes a huge amount of hard work, dedication, attention to detail, a bit of compassion and a whole lot of humor. Now on the up side I'm tenured and not likely to be laid off in a downturning economy. I'll do my part by trying to prepare these kids to get and keep a job to pay the taxes that will fund the social security of fine folks like me and you. Those of you who continue to work hard, produce and support the economy, I hope you may be rewarded with a new (or new to you) Alembic very soon. Ask not what your country can do for you......(riffs from Cult of Personality here).. the only thing we have to fear is.....fear itself....... |
olieoliver
Senior Member
Username: olieoliver
Post Number: 1950
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 8:03 pm: | |
Me thinks Bill (tgo) is on to something here. Who better to "trim the excess" from all those Putzs in DC than a Mohel!
http://www.kinkyfriedman.com/
OO
(Make that Ouch Ouch just thinking about that!) |
mike1762
Intermediate Member
Username: mike1762
Post Number: 154
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 8:50 pm: | |
I'm on Danno's (or Crgaston's) team. I have NO problem paying my fair share of taxes. But our progressive tax system penalizes individuals for being successful (I can't speak to corporate taxes). This is a fun thread!!! |
ajdover
Senior Member
Username: ajdover
Post Number: 673
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 8:56 pm: | |
I am a registered Republican. I voted for McCain/Palin.
This being said ..
I'm looking forward to seeing what's going to happen in the next four years. Obama promised much - now it's time to deliver. I'm not optimistic for any number of reasons.
The Democrats control both houses of our congress. They control the executive branch of our government. If they can't fix the very real problems we face in four years, something is seriously wrong. Obama is viewed by some friends of mine as a miracle worker. I'll be watching to see if in fact he works miracles. Again, I'm not optimistic but will be pleasantly surprised if he indeed works them. Getting elected is one thing; dealing with real issues is another.
Alan |
byoung
Senior Member
Username: byoung
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 9:39 pm: | |
Alan,
I'm with you: I hope, sincerely, that Obama can put action to the beautiful rhetoric. If they can do something to return America to the "shining city on a hill", then I'll certainly be glad for it.
I had other things to say, but got bored. Mostly about taxes, and you don't care anyways.
Anyhoo, congratulations to President-Elect Obama and Vice-President-Elect Biden.
And I'm proud to be an American, as I was Nov. 3, and for several days prior to that (that, my friends, was a British Understatement).
Bradley |
dannobasso
Senior Member
Username: dannobasso
Post Number: 897
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 7:24 am: | |
I'm always proud to be an honest, forthright, hardworking, tax paying, contributer to society who espouses the conservative ideology that brought my father through the depression, through WW2 (enlisted in the Navy at 17), raised a family of 6 with his wife of 49 years, througfh the challenges of the 60's, 70's 80's, 90's and now the 2000'nds. (where he lost a huge chunk of change when the bailout banking debacle affected the markets).
Whatever the future has to hold for the country, I hope that those in the positions of power in government are guided by wisdom and divine inspiration. Time will tell if "The One" is really THE One. Until the verdict is in, please keep working hard to be good citizens, continue to take care of yourself, your family and loved ones, (if that means motorcycles, beer and basses so be it) and make the changes you need to make to prosper in uncertain situations. As I wrote to a board member today , Though we are in for some challenging times, I feel that the best of us will do the best that is in us.
And on that note, please men and women of the Alembic family, make the sacrifices necessary to order a new bass or guitar from the Wickershams this year. (those who have had customs made within the last fiscal year and are currently waiting delivery are exempt from this but it would be great if you could do it again) I don't believe they started my 10 yet so consider me on active duty per my marching order. I'm sure Alan can give us a fusion recipe for the MRE's we will need to get through...... (no fruit please, not a big fan of it with the carne! ie pineapple with the Spam etc. ) |
jet_powers
Advanced Member
Username: jet_powers
Post Number: 392
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 7:43 am: | |
"When does exorbitant wealth become greed? The average CEO of a fortune 500 company made 14.2 million dollars in 2007."
When you make that kind of cake off the backs of the people, what's wrong with giving some of it back to the people? I'm not some sort of a socialist or communist, but how much does one need to survive? How many lifetimes can one live with that kind of money?
-JP |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 8:07 am: | |
Right on Danno! I'm waiting on a MK Deluxe right now, but I'm also watching the monthly specials for my next bass.
Mike |
mike1762
Intermediate Member
Username: mike1762
Post Number: 158
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 8:24 am: | |
I grew up in a blue collar working class family and tend to be an "uncompassionate liberal" when it comes to social issues (do what you want, but suffer the consequences of your decisions). Financially I'm more conservative. I agree with John that the top brass of PUBLIC companies should not be able to pillage the coffers. However, there is NOTHING wrong with pursuing and retaining wealth. Who would take the personal and financial risks of starting a new business without that carrot at the end of the stick? |
new2alembic
Member
Username: new2alembic
Post Number: 93
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 9:09 am: | |
I am huge not huge fan of Karl Rove or his tactics; however, I saw him interviewed this week (post-election). He did not bash Obama. In fact, he stated that Obama ran a clean, well disciplined campaign. He had been predicting a McCain defeat for some time. It doesn’t matter if you like Karl or not, he is a brilliant strategist. He believes in winning by any means necessary. Let's face it folks, most politicians are very ambitious people. You have to possess somewhat of an ego and ambition to put yourself out there like that. So, for a politician that wants to win Karl is your guy. The most interesting point that Karl made during the interview was this. He stated that most presidential candidates are clueless to the realities of the job. They make hundreds of promises to millions of people. Only the winner gets to face the reality of the position. According to Karl, Mr. Obama will have the shock of his life when he receives his first classified intelligence briefing. You can make all the promises in the world (with good and honest intentions), but it all gets trumped by national security. There are things in place that the average person, including elected officials, are clueless about. These things are there to keep this country safe and somewhat stable. The United States in no different than any other developed country in this regard. There are agencies at work that presidential candidates don't know exist. They have their jobs to do. And just like the men and women of the military, I appreciate their service and dedication. Many of these folks risk their lives every day for our freedoms.
So candidates may promise many things, but some things are in place for a reason. These things are unchangeable, even by the Commander-in Chief. This is not a conspiracy theory. Mr. Rove should know, he has been there and done that. He did not go into a whole lot of detail, but let's just say, there are checks and balances outside of the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary Branch. On a different note, I was silenced years ago on the issue of social welfare. I believed just about everything Mr. Reagan told us. Okay I was naïve. Some of you may remember the reference he made to the Chicago welfare queen that bilked the government out of $150,000. The following information was cited from another source: (He cited a Chicago "Welfare Queen" who had ripped off $150,000 from the government, using 80 aliases, 30 addresses, a dozen social security cards, and four fictional dead husbands. The country was outraged; Reagan dutifully promised to roll back welfare; and ever since, the "Welfare Queen" driving her "Welfare Cadillac" has become permanently lodged in American political folklore.
Unfortunately, he would never provide references or sources and it seems that it wasn't really true. The media searched for this welfare cheat in the hopes of interviewing her, and discovered that she didn't even exist. As a bit of class warfare, however, it was brilliant. It diverted public attention from insider traders in their limousines to Welfare Queens in their Cadillacs, even though the former were stealing thousands of times more from the American people than the latter. Just one example of the cost of white collar crime would become apparent a few years later, when President Bush bailed out the Savings & Loans industry with $500 billion of the taxpayer's money -- enough to fund 20 years of federal AFDC. )
Questions of class warfare aside, there is no evidence that there is a significant problem with welfare cheating. In 1991 less than 5 percent of all welfare benefits went to persons who were not entitled to them, and this figure includes errors committed by the welfare agency. (1)
Nor are people getting rich off welfare. The two largest welfare programs are Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) and food stamps. In 1992, the average yearly AFDC family payment was $4,572, and food stamps for a family of three averaged $2,469, for a total of $7,041. (2) In that year, the poverty level for a mother with two children was $11,186. (3) Thus, these two programs paid only 63 percent of the poverty level, and 74 percent of a minimum wage job. There are other welfare programs, of course, but they either pay a minuscule fraction of these two programs, or, if larger, are collected by only a small percentage of welfare recipients. The typical welfare recipient remains among the poorest members of society.’
I was asked to serve on a taskforce during the nineties to develop a “Welfare to Work initiative for our community…I had not moved back home to KY yet. Our taskforce spent six months researching the state and national welfare programs. No offense to anyone, but I had always assumed that most welfare recipients were black females. At that time 1993, 70 percent of the recipients were white families, I couldn’t believe it. I never viewed myself as racist up to that point. But the media, Hollywood, and my social circles had always given me that impression; it was a stereotype that I bought in to. I heard it so much that I thought it was a fact. I also thought most were lazy black females that had a multiple children. Keep in mind, I had always personally known some lazy white males and females with multiple children, some in my own family. I was just ignorant to the facts. I worked with men, women, black, white, Hispanic and Asian. There were politicians, IT professionals, doctors, electricians, teachers, factory works, plumbers, lawyers, social workers and preachers on this taskforce…30 of us in all. We worked with local, state, and national level professionals daily. We all came away with a better understanding of the broken system. Most of the folks we interviewed by phone and in person wanted to be self sufficient.
Most stated that it was only expected to be very temporary. But too many became enslaved into the system because they could not afford adequate childcare, transportation or insurance. I now know that I was an ignorant racist. I really felt that white males were smarter than white females. We had always trumped them in math, science, and any class that required hard thinking and problem solving. I held the same negative views of blacks academically. I always thought black males were superior athletically. But then I realized there were very few females back then in any of my math and science classes, but those that were there usually got very high marks. I didn’t go to school with any blacks. So I really didn’t have an accurate way to base my views. They were based on my bias and ignorance. I can now say that I am a recovering racist. Just like an alcoholic, I don’t know if I will ever be cured. But I have been willing for over 15 years to work on it. My SAT was 1340 and A’s came pretty easy, but I was very ignorant to many facts. It seems that the president –elect has his work cut out for him. At this point, the people have spoken, I will give him my full support until he proves he doesn’t deserve it. I don’t base my views of him on his race. After all, he is half-white…just kidding. Really, I am just kidding! If he can pattern his policies on the values he was raised with, he will prove that the conservative ideology is what got him where he is. He and his wife did not rely on hand outs to get where they are. He states that his grandparents worked hard to put him through school. He and Michelle worked their butts off to get the best education. They did not rely on this broken system. The Democrats for years have preached FDRs New Deal and Johnson’s Great Society. Hard work and education pays off. The Obamas are living proof of this. We need big business; they are the stimulus for economic growth. We cannot over tax them or force them oversees so they can remain competitive. Capitalism works…GW messed up. He forgot about small government. He forgot about cutting government spending. He and Congress over the past 8 years, not two, have almost bankrupted this country. Once Obama gets his briefing, we can see what tunes he will sing to us. Maybe, just maybe, he can see the mistakes of others and provide the type of leadership that will start a recovery. National security is still priority number one. I won't rant anymore today...I promise!
Carl |
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 403
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 9:57 am: | |
That's some interesting insight to the welfare system Carl.
(Message edited by hydrargyrum on November 07, 2008) |
new2alembic
Member
Username: new2alembic
Post Number: 94
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 10:40 am: | |
It is amazing what months of research and fact finding can do. I gained a lot of knowledge, all for the better I guess. I hope this information will help others as much as it has helped me to better understand people..all people.
Carl |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 117
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 12:00 pm: | |
Carl, I agree with most of what you wrote. Personally, I never thought that the problem with welfare was people who cheat. You have to put in a lot of effort to cheat the system and you only get a little bit out for that effort. It’s easier to sell drugs and you’ll make more money. The problem with welfare is that it creates a dependent class and it replaces fathers with a check from the government. That’s a theory, and I have no idea how realistic it is, but it seems to be true.
I also agree that tax dollars used for welfare programs are only a small part of the overall budget, so that’s not an issue for me either. I would much rather see tax dollars go to the poor than go to government bureaucrats, CEO’s, or any other rich people (including me, and I’m not even close to being rich). I won’t be losing any sleep if Warren Buffett’s tax rate goes up.
But the problem with raising taxes is competition (I think you get this, but I’m writing it for others). If our corporate tax rates are higher than other countries, then more jobs are likely to be created in those other countries instead of ours. If we want to put a cap on CEO pay or slap a windfall profit tax on the oil companies, who do we trust to do that and how much is too much? It may seem simple, but there are unintended consequences that can easily make us regret messing with it.
Our system obviously isn’t perfect, but our country has created more wealth for more people than any other country ever. We need to be careful about what we do to keep it that way.
Mike |
byoung
Senior Member
Username: byoung
Post Number: 1115
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 12:22 pm: | |
Carl,
I appreciate the insights.
I will say that the part that I look forward to most in an Obama presidency will be him as a role model for the youth of America: there are no upper limits, regardless of where you come from. I hope that it will encourage some of the youth of America, who currently idealize sports stars, rappers and thugs (wait... I repeat myself) to aim higher, get an education, form meaningful long term marriages, and end the disastrous cycle of parental absenteeism.
Barack Obama epitomizes these values (by all indications, a smart, educated family man). |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3364
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 12:45 pm: | |
Unfortunately none of that is going to happen until this country stops its insane War on Some Drugs. 5% of the world's population, 25% of the world's prison population. WE'RE NUMBER ONE! And that, my friends, is something I am NOT proud of.
Bill, tgo |
mike1762
Intermediate Member
Username: mike1762
Post Number: 161
Registered: 1-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 2:02 pm: | |
Amen Bill. As a physician, I see more damage done by tobacco and alcohol than every other drug COMBINED!!! Legalize it, regulate it, and collect taxes on it. If it's not illegal, the criminal element is removed. As I mentioned somewhere above, I am an "uncompassionate liberal" (as opposed to a "compassionate conservative"). As long as you are not hurting someone else, abuse yourself to your hearts content. Just don't expect society to step in and save you from yourself.
I think this thread has been a cathartic experience for a lot of people on a lot of different levels. Although we are not supposed to be doing this at this site, everyone has a lot on their mind at what is surely a unique period of time. I appreciate moderator Dave letting this one go, but I will make this my last post in this thread. It's been fun and enlightening hearing all your opinions on so many different subjects. |
new2alembic
Member
Username: new2alembic
Post Number: 95
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 2:22 pm: | |
3rd Ray Mike I am in total agreement with you. However; I have said way too much. Mike1762 you speak for me as well. Bill thank you for starting this thread. I know that we all strayed way off point. But it was a good cleansing for me. Thank you Mod Dave for letting us rant. I continue to learn so much from each of you.
Carl |
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke
Post Number: 490
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 3:24 pm: | |
When people talk about taxes getting raised, what often seems to go unmentioned or unnoticed is that we (Americans at least), are already very highly taxed. In addition to the income tax we pay, every consumer good from food to plasma televisions have taxes built into the price of the item. So, from my point of view, its not the actual act of paying taxes that angers me, but its the fact that the feds already collect alot from people, and I bet that at least 5-10% of what they collect they cant even account for....and they want more??? Sorry....What they need to do is go over the books very carefully and get rid of any wasteful spending the find before they even consider collecting higher taxes from anyone....
An earlier post mentioned how some CEO made 14.3 million one year....and one person who posted asked "why does someone need that much money?"....I can see that point...but that CEO is probably getting taxed quite a bit on that 14.3 million..furthermore, this is a free country, and if he earned that money legally than it is his right to do whatever he wants with it...I personally think it takes alot of nerve to tell someone what they need to/should do with their money...
As for corporations, I really dont know how corporations are taxed...In the past I was part of the crowd that used to berate "the greedy corporations", but Ive come to realize that granting certain financial incentives to corporations is something thats good for everybody. It encourages job growth, it helps to stimulate the economy, and it helps stabilize, and in some cases revitalize local economies....
(Message edited by glocke on November 08, 2008) |
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 404
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 7:23 pm: | |
I'm not sure our taxes are exceptional from an international perspective:
http://thinkorthwim.com/2007/04/29/tax-rates-by-country/
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922307.html |
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke
Post Number: 491
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 2:30 am: | |
Compared to other countries they arent excessive, but thats not the point. Besides, there are reasons the taxes in those countries are so high....
I just think that the feds need to go through and look at what is already being spent where and get rid of waste before any taxes are raised....If they did that they would probably find they can do what they want without raising taxes.....
Furthermore, call me greedy if you want, but I think people are entitled to keep what they earn. High wage earners usually make that kind of money due to alot of hard work and investment in themselves (i.e. going to college, med school, etc). They deserve to reap all the rewards that their hardwork brings them. |
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 405
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 3:56 am: | |
I agree with you completely on elimination of waste. I also agree with you regarding keeping what you earn. When I hear the statistics regarding how many of the employees of these companies are struggling to afford health care is when I begin to have a problem. I'm not sure I can even conceive of how hard someone needs to work to really justify a salary of 14 million a year. And when these people have essentially brokered the efforts of the employees below them, don't those employees deserve a piece of the pie? Yeah I guess I am an uncurable socialist . |
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke
Post Number: 493
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 4:45 am: | |
I dunno..Until I sit in the shoes of someone making 14 million a year, Im not going to be very judgemental...
I work for a pretty big pharma company, and our execs bring home salaries that are in the millions....I also know that the responsibility they have is enormous, and it is really pretty much of a 24 hour/seven day a week job, so I would really say that their compensation is justified...I certainly would not want that position.
Also, if one is going to bash the execs of these companies for earning that much money (while at the same time providing jobs for many, many people), than one also needs to bash the athletes who make just as much money, and are probably even more greedy and more selfish.
I personally dont care who makes what....Even as far as the oil companies go, we all hear about the gross profits they make, but how much of that is taxed? how much of that of that goes back into R&D and exploration?
" . And when these people have essentially brokered the efforts of the employees below them, don't those employees deserve a piece of the pie? Yeah I guess I am an uncurable socialist "
Its a little more complicated than that. Where I work we get a bonus every year that is based upon how well the company did. This is a fixed percentage for everyone. However, people at higher levels not only get that bonus, but they get an additional 15% bonus every year....Is this fair? You tell me...the people that get that extra 15% (im not one of them), usually are the ones with the more advanced degrees, and they are the ones that have more responsibility because they are managers...sounds perfectly fair to me..Furthermore, when I see the hours they need to put in, and the amount of BS they need to put up with, there is not any amount of money you could pay me to have to deal with that. These people basically have very little free time...
Its funny...I grew up at or near the poverty level...so I know what it is like to be dirt poor...My parents managed to make ends meet somehow...they never complained, and they never expected a handout from anyone..These days things seem to be quite different...people seem to expect more and act like they have a "right" to dip into someone elses hard earned money...For myself, I never really started doing well into about 5-6 years ago..Prior to that I was dirt poor...I could barely afford to pay my electric...Even than I never had any interest or desire to have someone elses money diverted to help me out. I made do with what I had.... |
hydrargyrum
Senior Member
Username: hydrargyrum
Post Number: 406
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 5:12 am: | |
It still amazes me that people pay to watch others play sports at all.
I agree with you that I don't want the responsibility that executives and managers take on. I can't imagine sacrificing that much time away from my family for any amount of money.
I guess ultimately I am a little concerned with the way that materialism seems to be so much a measure of success in the U.S. I have enjoyed this conversation, and I certainly think you make some valid points. I suspect that maybe the best solution probably lies somewhere in the median of our differing philosophies. |
glocke
Senior Member
Username: glocke
Post Number: 494
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 5:24 am: | |
Oh, I agree...The answer is clearly in the middle...We need taxes for the obvious reasons, and we need social programs for obvious reasons....Its just the amount of taxation that is in question and the lack of fiscal responsibility that the feds show time and time again that I have a problem with.
I agree wholeheartedly on the materialism issue....I think thats actually more of a mental illness of some type than anything. |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 119
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 11:23 am: | |
The reason why people at higher levels of the company get higher bonuses is because they’re worth more to the company. It’s an incentive to stay with the company. It costs more to replace someone who has 20 years of experience than it does to replace someone who has 2 years of experience.
The US doesn’t have the highest tax rates in the world, but they’re high enough. You can’t just look at corporate taxes or income taxes, you have to look at everything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
Just because our taxes aren’t the highest in the world doesn’t mean that it’s okay to raise our rates. There’s a definite correlation between high taxes and low job growth. People like to ask “are you better off now than you were 8 years ago?” The question should be “would you have been better if tax rates were higher?” Taxes on business tend to get passed on to consumers. Raising their taxes raises your cost. Low taxes are good for everyone except bureaucrats.
Mike
(Message edited by 3rd_ray on November 08, 2008) |
dnburgess
Senior Member
Username: dnburgess
Post Number: 577
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 1:15 pm: | |
This had been a fascinating thread - with relatively little rancour, considering the issues. Well done. My earlier congratulatory comment was about the process rather than the specific political outcome. i.e. People in many parts of the world viewed the election result as reaffirmation of the "American dream" that anything is possible.
In some respects the debate that has flowed in this thread is a microcosm of that process.
The debate about taxes, exec pay, etc can be boiled down to two questions:
1. How best to grow the pie?
2. How best to distribute the pie?
There is no doubt in my mind that free markets have been spectacularly successful in growing the pie. But there are plenty of examples of market failure.
"Externalities" are the big one. For example, what's to stop businesses trashing the environment for commercial gain? Governments typically respond by imposing a "cost" on the use of the environment. e.g. prohibition backed by fines, bonds for restitution of mining projects, etc.
The current GFC is arguably an example of market failure. The market mechanism that was meant to spread certain risks actually ended up concentrating them in certain large financial institutions.
Regarding distribution of the pie - the free market mechanism is the "trickle down". That is, as businesses grow, they create more jobs - so more workers are drawn into the bottom of the pyramid, more foremen, managers, senior managers, etc are needed so advancement paths are created for people in the pyramid, etc. The market will set remuneration for each position in the pyramid based on supply and demand for those skills.
But the trickle down is not perfect either - so governments create "safety nets" for those to whom nothing (or not enough) trickles - for example, the severely disabled. The extent of safety nets is the subject of much debate.
Also related to distributing the pie is how to apportion the cost of "public goods" - benefits that we get as a member of society that we don't directly pay for. Defence is an obvious example. There doesn't appear to be an obvious free market mechanism to pay for these goods - so governments distribute the cost via taxation. The relative share born by different members of society is also the subject of much debate.
Where am I going with all of this? I am making the point that free markets have an important role to play in growing the pie and distributing the pie - but on their own they are inadequate.
Once this is acknowledged, a meaningful debate can be had "in the middle" about the extent and nature of intervention. |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3366
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 2:27 pm: | |
Free market? I'm reminded of Dylan's line:
"Steal a little and they throw you in jail,
Steal a lot and they make you king."
Big banks and investment firms f**k up and the feds give them $700 billion. Mom & Pop's store goes under ... where's their bail out? That's democracy? Capitalism?
The problem with capitalism, as I see it, is that when it matures it becomes like a cancer on itself. The central core purpose of everything is replaced with making money. Leo Fender starts out with a central core purpose of making a better guitar. He busts his ass, comes up with some genius ideas, completely changes the industry, is successful, and as Fender matures, the pure purpose changes from making good instruments to making money. And guess what? Quality takes a nose dive. The same can be found in almost any mature industry one can imagine. This is what makes Alembic so unique ... and the recognition of this uniqueness is what brings us together in the Wickersham's cyber-livingroom. Personally, I don't think any human's work is worth $14 mil/year relative to another human's work which is only worth $6.55/hr or $13,624/yr (U.S. minimum wage). I always was impressed with Ben & Jerry's company policy that the highest paid person in the company could only make a certain percentage higher than the lowest paid person. Remember - absolute power corrupts absolutely. Put most people in a position where they can have most everything while most everyone else has almost nothing and most people will go for it.
Bill, tgo |
dannobasso
Senior Member
Username: dannobasso
Post Number: 898
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 7:37 pm: | |
So where does the Esquire class fit in in the redistribution scheme? |
georgie_boy
Senior Member
Username: georgie_boy
Post Number: 568
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 4:03 am: | |
Just want to say that I have really enjoyed this thread!
What is happening in America is about to happen here in the UK.
Let's hope it's all for the better.
We have the same problems, and it is time for a radical change.
Let's all try to be nice to each other......it costs nothing to be a nice, caring person
Just my $0.02/£0.02
George |
georgie_boy
Senior Member
Username: georgie_boy
Post Number: 569
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 4:05 am: | |
Danno
The Esquire class??
That's a one p/up Tele isn't it??? LOL |
dannobasso
Senior Member
Username: dannobasso
Post Number: 899
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 4:45 am: | |
Those Esquires can be butterscotch, these Esquires drink scotch. (Usually the highly aged single malt variety.) |
davr35
Member
Username: davr35
Post Number: 73
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 6:01 am: | |
That would be £0.017 for you Georgie Boy |
georgie_boy
Senior Member
Username: georgie_boy
Post Number: 570
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 6:10 am: | |
Danno
Nothing better than a 30 year old Lagavulin, or Laphroaig!!!
Sheer bliss!!!
David
have we been devalued yet again??
Nothing would surprise me in this God forsaken country
George |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3367
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 7:20 am: | |
George:
You wrote: "What is happening in America is about to happen here in the UK." What gives? Is Obama about to be crowned the new Queen of England? Boy, I new he was charismatic, but WOW!!! lol
Danno:
Redistribution scheme? Personally, and I've been saying this for over a year now: the pessimist in me expects Obama to prove that a black man can be every bit as much a crappy president as a white man can be. For everyone's sake, I sure hope I'm wrong. If I were King? At a minimum, I'd take steps to restore the foundation of the middle class. This class (or what's left of it) has taken the biggest hit over the last eight years. I don't believe in giving all the breaks to the rich and expecting it to "trickle down". We need a lot more than redistribution of wealth, we need a redistribution of priorities. We need to recognize the true value of traditionally low paying jobs and services, such as teaching, social services, etc., and provide more of a reward to attract more and better people to the these endeavors. It makes no sense at all that Barry Zito can earn $5000 for each pitch he throws, Kobe Bryant can earn well over $100,000 for each game he plays while people doing truly beneficial work for society make dog poop.
The really radical change I would make was mentioned by Charles, above. I first heard this idea from Rep. Tom Campbell when he ran against Diane Feinswine in the California senate primary a few years back. Abolish income tax, shut down the IRS, flush the whole bureaucracy down the toilet. Put a 20% sales tax on everything. Only exempt food, medicine, and the cost of housing up to a specified average. How much each person contributes depends on how much they spend. You want to get more stuff from this society? Then pay more of a share. No paperwork, no collection hassles, no audits, no cheating. Simple: You spend, you pay. Period.
In addition I'd institute national health care at affordable rates. Practically every other developed country has it. The difference? Their doctors don't own as many boats as ours do (see post above about capitalism maturing into a cancer). BUT THIS IS SOCIALISM!!! some will cry out! Guess what, we have already socialized lots of things in this country. Roads and highways, infrastructure, education, garbage collection, mass transit, etc. And it still hasn't caused my 13 year old to grow a Stalin mustache!
And oh yes, Glenlivet straight up with a water back. I also enjoy Saffire Gibsons (though only one drink at a sitting, and even then only once or twice a month, if that. I more commonly enjoy far healthier substances - and don't even get me started on that issue!)
This has really turned into the "Truckin' Thread", as in "What a long strange trip its been". Love you all.
Bill, tgo
(Message edited by lbpesq on November 09, 2008) |
davr35
Member
Username: davr35
Post Number: 74
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 7:42 am: | |
Sorry per todays exchange rates that would be £0.012667 for you Georgie |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 9:52 am: | |
People talk about “this administration” and "the last 8 years" as if we lived in a utopia before Bush got elected. The fact is that things haven’t been all that different from the way they were before. What is unprecedented is the outright and irrational hatred that so many people have for anything associated with Bush and the complete lack of objectivity that most of the press has shown over the last 8 years, and especially over the last 8 months. Now Obama is going to come in and solve the world’s problems? Whatever happened to “We won’t get fooled again”? We did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI
And yes our path towards socialism started a long time ago, but that doesn’t mean that we should embrace it.
Mike |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 121
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 9:59 am: | |
 |
keavin
Senior Member
Username: keavin
Post Number: 1502
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 11:40 am: | |
I dont know how many african-american guys are in this club but i'm one & proud of my african heritage and if you dont like the fact that there's Black Power Running the white house then you should post your Racist cartoons on some Hitler web site and lets keep this club music friendly!!!  |
precarius
Advanced Member
Username: precarius
Post Number: 260
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 11:59 am: | |
I don't understand. How is the cartoon racist? |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 122
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 12:51 pm: | |
If Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Michael Steele, or Thomas Sowell was just elected president, I would be proud too. This has nothing to do with race.
I'll even congratulate Obama for being the first black president. It's about time we had someone other than an old white man as president. I just think Obama's the wrong guy for the job, by far.
Mike |
keavin
Senior Member
Username: keavin
Post Number: 1503
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 12:56 pm: | |
well then why didn't you run for president as the next best white man!!! |
jalevinemd
Senior Member
Username: jalevinemd
Post Number: 690
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 1:06 pm: | |
Bill,
I've never gotten emotional on this board but this is a very personal topic. I don't care about the medical practices in other countries...I live here. With all due respect, I don't have a boat. What I do have is the rest of my $150,000 medical school loans and a nearly $70,000 malpractice insurance premium each year because of the completely ridiculous medical-legal environment in this country. I saw our neurosurgeon leave because he could lower his nearly $150,000/year premium by limiting his practice to one hospital. I've seen Ob/gyns and other specialists move to Wisconsin and Indiana where the premiums are lower.
Let me put something in perspective. People expect doctors to be perfect and procedures to be flawless. Say what you will...that's the bottom line. It's one of the few things where there's no tolerance for bad outcomes. I've seen and heard of the most ridiculous malpractice suits over the years. One day I'll have to deal with it personally. Taking out the wrong kidney is malpractice. Missing a vague 3mm cancer on a mammogram that some "expert witness" can point out to a jury in retrospect is not. I've seen true malpractice. I'm not saying it doesn't exist.
In addition to the procedures I perform, I read close to 10,000 studies a year. If I had 3 blatant misses that resulted in lawsuits, I'd still be practicing with 99.97% accuracy. Yet, I'd most likely lose my insurance coverage and not be able to practice medicine anymore. A baseball player who has a lifetime batting average of 400 would be in the hall of fame. With those stats, I'd be in prison.
I work long days, nights and weekends. I'm on call 24/7 every third week, up all night one day a week, not including emergency calls the other 6. I have the stress of people lives and health in my hands everyday and the looming fear of lawsuits when and if bad things happen. For this I expect to be compensated appropriately and so do most people I know.
Medical expenses in this country can be controlled and care provided to the under-served by ways other than simply cutting Medicare reimbursements (yet again) and slashing doctors salaries. I hope President Obama believes this as well.
(Message edited by jalevinemd on November 09, 2008) |
lbpesq
Senior Member
Username: lbpesq
Post Number: 3368
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 2:03 pm: | |
Jonathan:
Sorry if you took my post personally. I have no problem with people being compensated more if their work required more training and experience, or if they have more responsibility on their shoulders. And I certainly agree that the civil legal system is out of control and causes immeasurable problems that radiate though every walk of life where people fear being sued. But please explain to me how it is reasonable that the 10 minute MRI performed on my back cost $2500? Is it reasonable the the xrays cost an uninsured person $650, yet only cost me $82 because I have insurance - bear in mind, the $82 wasn't my co-pay - I had yet to reach my deductable, but the place charges incredibly different prices to those with and without insurance. Or how my late brother's 6 hour brain surgery should cost $750,000? Obviously, the amounts charged bear no relation to the services provided, but rather to the "how much can we get" mentality, or thats how it seems to me.
Bill, tgo |
jalevinemd
Senior Member
Username: jalevinemd
Post Number: 691
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 2:22 pm: | |
Bill,
I was just venting. I am scared about where this money is going to come from. We very narrowly dodged another Medicare reimbursement cut only a few months ago. My salary would have gone down 15% overnight. The gov't realizes that Medicare will be broke in a few years at this rate, so the easiest solution is simply to cut doctors payments.
Regarding the MRI, most of the charge is the technical component which goes to the hospital or imaging center. Most radiologists, unless they own the equipment, don't see a dime of that. We'll probably get between $125 and $175 for the interpretation (and all of the risk!) As for the overly inflated medical charges, here's one reason for them. We can charge whatever we want. Insurance (particularly Medicare) will only pay so much. As ridiculous as it sounds, we need to inflate the charges in hopes that some self-payers (who actually pay) and certain insurance companies will pay those charges in full to offset what we lose in Medicare, Medicaid and the uninsured who pay nothing. That's only one explanation. So, in those respects, the "haves" are paying more to cover the "have nots." Granted that should disappear if everyone becomes a "have." The question becomes...where does the money come from to make sure everyones got adequate health coverage. |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 123
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 2:50 pm: | |
I'd like to hear from some of the people who live in countries that have nationalized health care. I've heard bad things about it. Yeah, it's free but you'll die waiting for a doctor... etc. So what's the truth?
Mike |
richbass939
Senior Member
Username: richbass939
Post Number: 1001
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 5:35 pm: | |
It was said "What is unprecedented is the outright and irrational hatred that so many people have for anything associated with Bush ..."
It's interesting and very telling that Pres. Bush has been out of the campaign spotlight for quite a while now. If even his own party thought he was doing a good (or even mediocre ) they would consider him an asset rather than a liability and try to use him to their advantage. If the Republican strategists don't even think his association will do anything but hurt, then that's coming from his own side, not from his critics. I think they were wise to keep him out of the picture. However, there was so much damage done already that even his absence couldn't help all that much.
The Republicans have shafted themselves. They invested very heavily in a shift to the right. Catering to some of the special interests at the right fringe of the GOP bought cheap votes for them and was successful for awhile. This shift left many moderates (who formerly voted GOP) without a party. Now it is catching up with them. They don't have enough votes in the extremes (the religious right, for example) to carry the party. Alienate the people in the middle (or don't show them anything worth voting for) and you have a losing ticket.
Personally, I'm very proud that Obama will be our president. I'm proud that the USA has sufficiently gotten past its long history of racism to elect an African-American. Given his ideas and what I hope he can accomplish, I would have voted for him even if he was white. It was not a race thing for me. I voted for someone whose ideas and character I like. He just happened to be African-American. Race isn't a big deal to me either way. It still is for a lot of people, and that is unfortunate.
For those of you who will be grinding your teeth for at least the next four years, I know how you feel.
I think I hear my bass calling me.
Rich |
3rd_ray
Intermediate Member
Username: 3rd_ray
Post Number: 124
Registered: 2-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 7:04 pm: | |
"The Republicans have shafted themselves. They invested very heavily in a shift to the right."
Okay, but now we're shifting just as far to the left. Don't be surprised if that doesn't work either.
I'm not expecting to change any opinions. I'm just expressing my opinion as others have. Both sides should be heard.
And I agree with probably everyone that this thread is getting old. I think it never should have been started here. The last thing I want to read about on the Alembic website is politics.
Mike |
funkyjazzjunky
Advanced Member
Username: funkyjazzjunky
Post Number: 251
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 7:57 am: | |
I love politics and political discussions (I cannot avoid them living in Washington, DC)
In this forum, we should be able to discuss any subject. While our opinions may differ, we remain united in our love of the world's greatest basses. |
new2alembic
Member
Username: new2alembic
Post Number: 96
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 8:12 am: | |
About the cartoon, co-creator of the Wizard of ID (the late Johnny Hart) was controversial. I am not so sure this was meant to be a parody; I realize that it states that it is. To some he was anti-Semitic, anti-atheist, and anti-democrat. He often injected personal jabs into his humor. To his followers, he was a man of tremendous Christian faith. To his critics, he was a bigoted, hateful, narrow- minded $*##@! His son and other family members are now the main contributors to the strip. I stopped reading the strip years ago. It lost it humorous originality for me. No, I guess the true is that I have changed. I am no longer the bigoted, hateful, narrow-minded $*##@! man that I used to be and no longer find it funny. Wait a minute, I haven’t read any comic strips in years.
P.S. I no longer hate groups of people…I just hate individuals. lol
Carl |
new2alembic
Member
Username: new2alembic
Post Number: 97
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 8:16 am: | |
Hey Funkyjazzjunky don't forget the 6 stringers
(guitars that is)! |
new2alembic
Member
Username: new2alembic
Post Number: 98
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 8:21 am: | |
Keavin calm down. The power is only half black.
Carl |
new2alembic
Member
Username: new2alembic
Post Number: 99
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 8:35 am: | |
Keavin, I hope you believe that I have no problems with Mr. Obama's race. Black, white, bi-racial, these labels no longer matter to me. They haven't for a long time. I have explained my position above. I have read this thread again. I don't see any reference to his race being a factor. He has earned the office; we all now have to wait a see what happens. We all should withhold judgment until at least his first 180 days. I can't speak for anyone but Carl. But I repeat; I don't share his ideology on government spending. But again, George W. Bush spent money like a fiscally ultra-liberal Democrat. Our party could not back him because he did not follow the small government philosophy that is fiscally conservative. The president-elect will have to work real hard to make Bush look worse than he already does. For some Obama's race may be the main issue. I just haven't seen it stated in this forum. For me, that speaks volume for our members.
Carl |
keith_h
Senior Member
Username: keith_h
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 10:09 am: | |
One of the reasons I like this board is the lack of politics. If I want to debate political things I can go to any number of boards and do it.
Already in this thread multiple people have felt offended by the remarks of others. We are a very diverse group of people, not only here in the US but around the globe. None of us really knows where the others stand or what their background and experiences were that formed their opinions. Because of this it is very easy for something that you feel is innocuous to be offensive to someone else. The best way to prevent this is to just leave politics where they belong and that is somewhere else.
Lastly we are guests. We need to keep in mind this is not our board. It is provided by Alembic/Wickershams and reflects on them both directly and indirectly. While I am sure they, as I, would encourage everyone to participate in their government I am also sure they would prefer it was done outside of this board.
Keith |
yggdrasil
Intermediate Member
Username: yggdrasil
Post Number: 169
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 3:23 pm: | |
>I'd like to hear from some of the people who live in countries that have nationalized health care. I've heard bad things about it. Yeah, it's free but you'll die waiting for a doctor... etc. So what's the truth?
I'm a political junkie & watched the US news constantly over the last year.
The misinformation spewed re. our health care system was staggering.
Just a few anecdotal observations(not exhaustive) :
1)we can choose whatever doctor we wish; there is no bureaucrat standing between a patient & a doctor.
2)We gripe about waiting lists up here, but any friends I have had with anything serious (MS & cancer)received MRIs & treatment immediately. I suppose a more elective procedure might be in queue, but I can't say for sure, since I have no personal experience of such. My wife & I both get any tests ordered by our doctors within a reasonable length of time, although neither of us have any health issues to date.
Access, and speed of access, is determined by health considerations, not how fat your wallet is.
And no one is rendered homeless due to a serious illness.
2)even if we had such waiting lists as those mischaracterized south of the border, at least everyone would get treatment - the longest waiting period is the one with no treatment at all at the end.
Sometimes we are short of certain facilities & our government health system pays to take a patient to a border city in the US for MRIs, or whatever. Of course, no one points out that the reason MRIs in Buffalo are available to Torontonians is because about 30% of Buffalonians can't afford them and simply go without.
It's rather obscene.
3) an friend of mine with American insurance was dying of cancer in her early 30s. When I went to visit her, she'd be poring over pages & pages of itemized items - she had to confirm this bedpan, that box of kleenex, etc. for the insurance claim.
I repeat, she was dying of cancer.
Again: obscene.
4) a woman in the 2nd presidential debate asked Obama & McCain if they thought the profit motive had any place in health care - they both deftly answered a different question, avoiding the topic completely. But that question contained the kernel of the problem - health considerations should be the only ones when it comes to who gets what health care & when. And profit & the bloated bureaucracy ( about 10X the number of paper pushers in a HMO as in a comparably sized Canadian health department)take valuable dollars from actual health care.
A major factor is that we have one payer (through the government) & no profit. I believe it can't be done through a spiderweb of private, for-profit corporations. It costs a lot less to deliver health services once profit & private insurance are removed from the equation.
I'm an entrepreneur who has always owned & run his own business, certainly not a "socialist",but I agree with my fellow Canadians when they specify our health care system as the last program they would give up.
Frank in Toronto
(Message edited by Yggdrasil on November 10, 2008)
(Message edited by Yggdrasil on November 11, 2008) |
davehouck
Moderator
Username: davehouck
Post Number: 7149
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 4:21 pm: | |
Ok, here's what I think.
Mica loves this community; she loves each one of us, and she loves building instruments for us. She delights in taking pictures of instruments in progress and posting them for our enjoyment; just as she delights in trying to help us out when our instruments have problems.
I became moderator because Mica asked me. However, I have remained moderator because you guys have allowed me that privilege. This forum is part and parcel of the whole idea of Alembic. That you guys are happy with this forum is important to Mica; that's why she wanted a moderator, and that's why she puts so much of her time into our board. This is the Alembic community, and we wish it to be as widely inclusive as possible. We wish for this place to be as warm and welcoming as possible.
My view of this thread is reflected in the posting guidelines; if you haven't read the posting guidelines yet, please do so now. If you have read them, the relevant passage is as follows.
"Avoid using language that others may find offensive. Other people will find offensive, remarks that are degrading sexually, that are ethnically or racially oriented, that are patently political, or that may present some particular religious view.
It seem to me to be the case that when you make negative remarks about a political position that others holds dear, then there will be at least some of that group who will be offended, or hurt, or disgusted, or thinking that perhaps there is some other place where, or group of people with whom, they would rather be spending their time right now.
And making people uncomfortable with the Alembic forum is not what we are about, however unintended that may be.
While I have received email and phone calls about this thread, I am most concerned about some whom I will not hear from. There will be some who, after reading some of the comments in this thread, may decide that this community no longer feels the same for them. We all have busy lives, and we make decisions on how to prioritize our time. Where we chose to spend our time, whether it's an internet forum, a bar, a restaurant, a bookstore, or a music store, is often influenced on how comfortable we feel there; how we feel about the people we are around. All of us are different; and our decision making processes are different. It's where each of us is right now after a lifetime of experiences. Again, in my view, this place works best for all of us as a community when it is held as a refuge for all of us.
Again, you guys have allowed me to be your moderator. As this place and you guys are so important to Mica, it seems self-evident to me that if she felt that you were not happy here because of the decisions I've made as moderator, then clearly I would no longer be moderator.
While I find it wholly understandable that people on both sides of the election would have highly emotional reactions to the election, and while I find it wholly understandable that some might want to express those feelings here, my view is reflected in the posting guidelines. I do not believe that I have some infallible knowledge about how internet forums should be run; and I think that reasonable people could conclude that my position on the matter is wrong.
However, you guys have for whatever reason allowed me to be your moderator; and given that, it does seem that you as a group have deigned to let me have a little say-so about things from time to time.
Thus in my role as moderator I do most respectfully request that this thread and subject matter be herewith laid to rest.
Thank you for your patience with me and for your understanding that I am just trying to do what Susan, Mica, and you as a group would want me to do.
David |
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